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Jambo98

FM15 - The community formation experiment

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So this follows on from something i did last year, which people got involved in.

Here is last years thread for anyone who is interested:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/387570-How-important-is-a-quot-formation-quot-A-community-tactical-experiment

I actually think there are some new default formations this year as well, which maybe even widens things. (i think i pity anyone who ends up with the default 253 though:eek:)

General

  • Everyone has to use the same database (15.2.1 i think we are on now? - with no database edits)
  • Other add ons are fine - its only important that the starting squads are the same for everyone
  • Past experience the same for everyone - "international experience" for everyone
  • Everyone has to use the same starting team - We would agree in advance, and if it was popular maybe run 2 versions with different teams
  • Transfers limited to say 2 permanent signings, one loan signing (a bit arbitrary, but its how i vaguely remember the original thread)

Tactics

  • Each user who wants to take part gets given one of the default formations - It is chosen by the VBA code, Not by me
  • The formation (that is to say the player slots on the pitch), must not be changed in anway. So if you get 5 - 4 - 1 you must keep a flat back 5, a flat midfield 4 and a single striker in the central slow.
  • Any other tactical options can be customised - This is the essence of the experiment - using roles, duties, team and player instructions, you can try to take a basic shape and make it function in different ways

The Team

So last year we went with Fiorentina. I think its interesting to go outside of England for this, but without going to "out there" so there is at least some element of familiarity. I am thinking Spain, Italy or Germany, and as with before I liked a good but not great squad. Teams in the Europa League are a nice guide, and that gives us:

Fiorentina (i think we probably rule them out)

Inter

Torino

Real Sociedad

Sevilla

Villarreal

Mainz

Borussia Monchengladbach

Wolfsburg

Happy to debate it a bit, but i like Torino (unusual choice and also have a natural Sweeper), Wolfsburg (nice balanced squad) perhaps Villarreal?

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Up for this again :cool:

Although I don't want to play with Torino - got a 7 year save on the go with them atm :D

Villarreal would be my pick. Possibly Wolfsburg just for Bendtner.

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Spain or Germany would get my vote, although if Germany may we edit the database to include actual club names? Playing a match vs "Gelsenkirchen" for example is just awful ;).

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Ok, a couple of votes for Villarreal, sounds a good option to me? Had a look at the squad and its reasonably balanced to support different formations. With the 3 transfers "rule" you should be able to get cover in all areas.

I will put the first few names into the magic machine shortly and see what formations are given - If anyone really doesnt like it, i guess we can redo it! For info, i have excluded some of the more "vanilla" formations which you would see all the time - Below is the full list of formations available - Happy if anyone wants to comment on the ones excluded/not excluded?

joggajp.png

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Count me in too. Can I suggest maybe a mid-table rather than Europa league level team though? There's a few reasons: firstly, it cuts down the number of fixtures a bit, meaning people are more likely to make it to the end of the season. Secondly, it gives more scope for a particular formation to be successful: if a particular formation overachieves to the point that a Torino is in the Champions League spots, it's more significant than getting Inter there. Finally, last time around a lot of folk had poor starts, and then gave up. If we start with a weaker team, I think more people will stick with it through the teething troubles even with a bad start.

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Count me in for this - sounds good.

What about France - a few 'decent' but not top class teams such as Marseille, Lyon, Lille, etc basically anyone that isn't PSG or Monaco?

If not, then I think Villareal, Sevilla or Wolfsburg.

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If Jambo gets the 4-5-1 formation, I'm gonna call fix :D

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Count me in too. Can I suggest maybe a mid-table rather than Europa league level team though? There's a few reasons: firstly, it cuts down the number of fixtures a bit, meaning people are more likely to make it to the end of the season. Secondly, it gives more scope for a particular formation to be successful: if a particular formation overachieves to the point that a Torino is in the Champions League spots, it's more significant than getting Inter there. Finally, last time around a lot of folk had poor starts, and then gave up. If we start with a weaker team, I think more people will stick with it through the teething troubles even with a bad start.

I think the Europa brings an extra element - Another competition to see how you do in. If people dont want to stick at it, they likely wont regardless of the extra few games :) Agree on the team level, i kinda ruled out Inter for that reason, Sevilla likewise. It feels like Villarreal are reasonably "mid table".

Count me in for this - sounds good.

What about France - a few 'decent' but not top class teams such as Marseille, Lyon, Lille, etc basically anyone that isn't PSG or Monaco?

If not, then I think Villareal, Sevilla or Wolfsburg.

France was an option, but i think Spain is maybe a little more known. I am leaning towards saying lets go with Villarreal - If its popular we can always do it twice.

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Count me in too! I'd also say we shouldn't rule out formations for being 'too popular' either. It's be good to have a kind of benchmark to show perhaps that unorthodox formations can perform equally well as the more popular ones!

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Ok so took the names so far in the order you all replied, and the random picker did its thing.

JDownie - 433 Narrow

herne79- 4123 Narrow

PeleJunior - 5122 DM Narrow

NoChance - 343 Diamond Wide

Dburns - 41311 DM Narrow

LewisK - 4222 DM Narrow

Jambo98 - 5122 Sweeper DM WB

As before, if anyone really doesnt want to go with the choice let me know. Its not a competition its just for a bit of fun and learning.

Some interesting ones there, not a lot of width and a few 3 striker formations of the board. I seem to have got a bit of a stinker, i will give it a go but my previous experience suggested that Sweeper role is bugged currently (to do with how they read offside).

So to recap, you must select your formation from the default list and stick to it. Roles, duties, TI, PI, Mentality and Team shape can all be anything you choose, but the core shape must remain!

We are going with Villarreal, and you can make 2 signings and one loan signing. I was thinking of saying anyone who pulls a sweeper formation can make one additional signing, but now that i got a sweeper one it would seem like favouritism :p I will try myself to see if i can do it without going over that limit :)

Again, as with last year - its not a contest or sign up per se, not looking for screenshots of your manager profile or "proof" of anything, but it would be great to get some analysis of how everyone chooses to set things up :)

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Musacchio should be able to play SW anyway :)

e: 433 narrow is a nasty ass formation to draw but I'll see what I can do with it :thup:

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433 narrow is a nasty ass formation to draw but I'll see what I can do with it :thup:

Want to swap for my 4123 narrow? :eek:

2r571b7.png

I actually laughed out loud when I saw it.

This is going to be a challenge :).

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Want to swap for my 4123 narrow? :eek:

2r571b7.png

I actually laughed out loud when I saw it.

This is going to be a challenge :).

I did think about excluding this formation because its a little er......crazy! so if you do want another, that would be fair enough!

Looking at mine its tricky. I do have a few players who can play sweeper. I initially expected to use a Libero here, but the DM makes that kinda tricky. I had a thought to use a Regista there, have the Libero move into this space as he goes forward. One slight issue is that one of my best players is Bruno, has PPM's suited to a holding type role :/

Much thinking to be done before i even get started!

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Want to swap for my 4123 narrow? :eek:

2r571b7.png

I actually laughed out loud when I saw it.

This is going to be a challenge :).

Ahahahaha, holy crap! :eek:

I thought 4231 narrow would be the same as mine but with a DM instead of a CM. I think you have a bit of a ******* formation there. I genuinely don't think that's even workable...

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I'd be up for it, if it's not to late, getting a bit bored with my save at the moment, don't want to ditch it,but a fresh challenge would be fun.

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Nice challenge, but i'm not starting a new save for that. I'm following this thread, tho.

Cheers,

Bitner

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I'd be up for it, if it's not to late, getting a bit bored with my save at the moment, don't want to ditch it,but a fresh challenge would be fun.

Course its not to late, i would expect people to join up over a period of days or even weeks, until we are out of tactics, anyone can join. I very much doubt we will get through all the tactics!

I plugged you into the magic generator and:

Torskus77 - 541

Ouch...on the face of it, the most defensive tactic out there. Could be very interesting to see if you can make it into something which actually is not over defensive, or do you go with the defensive theme :)

Good luck

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Course its not to late, i would expect people to join up over a period of days or even weeks, until we are out of tactics, anyone can join. I very much doubt we will get through all the tactics!

I plugged you into the magic generator and:

Torskus77 - 541

Ouch...on the face of it, the most defensive tactic out there. Could be very interesting to see if you can make it into something which actually is not over defensive, or do you go with the defensive theme :)

Good luck

Could have been worse :-)

Will get on to it over the weekend. Cheers.

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Well i'm not really one of the best tacticians here, kind of the opposite but I'm definitely enjoying FM15 a lot more than last year after reading all the guides in this forum and all the amazing threads ( yours , Jambo, were a true inspiration). I'm better than when I started playing and managed to create a few good tactics so I'm wondering if I could join this as well, in an attempt to learn more ? Chances are I will fail, but I want to give it a shot if there's still room for more people.

How often do you expect updates? With a job and finishing college this year, I might not be able to update every day but every 2 days should be ok.

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Hi Jambo, I'd love to get involved. Having read a lot of threads on here and having had a few saves playing with various tactics and roles this would be a good chance to put my tinkering to some use.

I dont get to play everyday anymore due to family commitments but I do tend to get a few nights a week if that is acceptable?

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This seems interesting, count me in - although with the 6 nations starting I do not know how much time I will get to play extensively through a season for the next month and a bit! But if nothing else it will highlight my tactical ineptitude =D.

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Good to see a few people up for this :) It is reasonably short term but can be a good fun way to learn and see things tactically. There is no requirement for any specific set types of updates, or how regular they need to be etc. Its good to get some conversation in the thread around tactical setup but if you go a few days or even a week without updating then no issue really - its not a challenge as such :)

For those who have said they are in, tactics chosen by the machine:

Kuldaniss - 5212 Sweeper WB

dirkTLB - 451

sporadicsmiles - 31312 DM

A bit of variety there, with my fave 451 now off the table! The last one there is an interesting shape :D

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Can an exception be made for an old FM14 player, i have the latest update so team shouldnt be too different

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Can an exception be made for an old FM14 player, i have the latest update so team shouldnt be too different

Apologies, i did mean to mention you in that last reply! The ME will be quite different as well as the starting squad perhaps, and i am also not sure that all the default formations that are available this year were even in FM14.

That said, its not a contest so there is no downside if you want to have a try - its just a chance for people to share different observations.

Put your name into the machine and:

Jaykinobi - 4231 Narrow

I think that one should defo be in the defaults from last year, so you should be ok? Its quite an interesting shape but i know people have made it work before :)

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Going to get going on this later today. Few quick questions, if they have been answered already then apoligies, I have looked through the thread and not found the answers.

FMC or Full fat ? Or optional ?

Is this for one season only ? before moving on to a new challenge ?

Quite looking forward to 5-4-1 actually, although I have no idea about Villarreal's squad, as I don't really follow football outside of England that much these days. Am really hoping they have some attacking full backs !

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Going to get going on this later today. Few quick questions, if they have been answered already then apoligies, I have looked through the thread and not found the answers.

FMC or Full fat ? Or optional ?

Is this for one season only ? before moving on to a new challenge ?

Quite looking forward to 5-4-1 actually, although I have no idea about Villarreal's squad, as I don't really follow football outside of England that much these days. Am really hoping they have some attacking full backs !

I would always say full fat, i find FMC a bit of an abomination of the idea of a football manager sim, but thats a personal view and not shared by all im sure! But it does miss certain gameplay elements IMO

The idea is to do it over one season, that is pretty much long enough to develop the formation shape into something. You can of course continue it, and if enough people maintain interest beyond that we could repeat the exercise with a different squad and new random formations.

They do have some good wingback type options, its a really well balanced squad i have found. At the moment i have used up on signing and i am not sure i even need the other 2, reasonably happy with the squad. Will put up my first attempt at this formation shortly :)

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Just a friendly reminder that talks of downloading a certain fix for Germany is not allowed on the forums. The posts have been deleted.

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I would be very interested in participating - could you please sign me up Jambo

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Good to see a few people up for this :) It is reasonably short term but can be a good fun way to learn and see things tactically. There is no requirement for any specific set types of updates, or how regular they need to be etc. Its good to get some conversation in the thread around tactical setup but if you go a few days or even a week without updating then no issue really - its not a challenge as such :)

For those who have said they are in, tactics chosen by the machine:

Kuldaniss - 5212 Sweeper WB

dirkTLB - 451

sporadicsmiles - 31312 DM

A bit of variety there, with my fave 451 now off the table! The last one there is an interesting shape :D

Thank you, definitely out of my comfort zone. I'll do some research and start right up. Now I probably will fail but this is more of a lesson for me, will read this thread and see what formations people end up with, should help a lot !

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ok, I've been giving my formation some thought...

2r571b7.png

And the thoughts are quite scary :eek:.

Anyway, these are the main issues I need to sort out - and I need to approach this methodically.

1) There is a massive gap between defence and midfield, simply because there isn't much of a midfield. That hole needs to be plugged.

2) The obvious attacking overload I can have is straight through the AMC sector. However, I think the formation is straying from an overload into an overcrowding situation - players will be falling over each other unless I do something about it.

3) Width. My left and right backs are out wide all by themselves. The next "widest" players up each line are my STCL/R strikers. I need to try to find some help out wide.

4) It's easy to view this formation as very attacking, and therefore easy to start pumping long balls into the AMCs and forwards. However, none of the forwards at the club have much in the way of a physical presence, so I think it's a mistake in this instance to go down that road.

Now that I've started to look at this more closely, this has caught my eye, and may give me a starting point:

2dsftbo.png

My 4123 narrow formation is really just a squashed version of the more natural 4123DM. As you can see, the DM is moved up to MC, the 2 x MCs are now AMCs, and the AML/R are pushed into STCL/R. If I can somehow "unsquash" the formation, I may have a chance.

These are my initial thoughts (very much work in progress):

1) To plug the gap in front of the defence, I'll need to push the def line higher up (but not to Sacchi extremes!). Further, the MC will need to be given a Defensive duty.

2) Left and right backs should have a support duty. I don't want many risks down the flanks, but some support (preferably in line with the ball rather than ahead of it) will be useful.

3) The AMCs need to come deep, be hard working and (preferably) have some defensive capabilities. I may look at retraining energetic MCs or DMs to fill these slots, especially if they have suitable PPMs.

4) I'm going to need the STCL/R to spread wider and drop deep. I'm thinking Defensive Forwards + man marking on opposition fullbacks may help here.

5) A Counter mentality + push higher up may be a good starting point. I also have a nice 4123DM Control tactic that I may be able to adapt. I'll set 2 tactics up and see how they play out.

6) The central defenders and the MC need to be excellent defensively. I may need to get creative with a couple of transfers (I'm looking at you Balanta and Gil Romero), so I'll see how I can drum up some funds.

I'll keep you posted :).

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Could you count me in too?

Good post Hearne97, always good to see the thought process behind decisions and I like how you've tried to visualise the defensive aspect.

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Sheez fellas, thats a ton of interest more than i expected! Keeping me busier on the random generator than on my tactic :D

Right, hopefully i have not missed anyone who has expressed interest today.....

DurinVIII - 523 Narrow

Spaced33 - 3232 DM

liam8sufc - 3421

thatlastbiliousbead - 4321 DM Narrow

sandybarclay84 - 4321 Narrow

alinp - 5122 DM WB

ntw001 - 541 Diamond WB

There we go chaps, a real mish mash selection there!

Re the question of how many leagues/db size, i think thats open for each person to choose. I cant see it making a huge difference over one season. Obviously you need the Spanish leagues, id say down to B2. Personally i have Italy and Germany running as well but leave it up to everyone to choose their own - might be depending on whether you see yourself continuing after season 1 :)

I will update post 2 with the full list of assigned formations/ones left!

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451, just the formation I've been playing around with using City, which I have just about got working the way I want, so will have to see if I can adapt it to fit the players Villarreal have.

I've had a few cracks at Spain in previous games but never had a go with the yellow submarines, should be fun!!

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Right, so my first setup of the the 5122 Sweeper DM WB

Xr0BURC.jpg

And a few notes on the why/what:

1) Gone with Libero over sweeper, as it adds more to the tactic. I dont have a real attacking libero type, so i have gone with the support duty. I expect him to move infront of the other 2 defenders, towards the DM slot, but wouldnt expect him to charge forward and join attacks beyond that.

2) To compliment this, i have used a RGA in the DM slot. I expect him in turn to be pushing forward as we attack, avoiding the issue of the Libero and DM standing on top of each other. In theory, one covers the other

3) DLP(d) to give us some stability, particularly with the RGA going forward. CM(a) is the one role i have not yet full settled on, and might actually become a BBM.

4) Wingbacks, i have gone with more attacking on the right side in duty, as Mario is marginally better and has attacking PPMs. To balance this, the DLF is put on the left and given instructions to run wide and roam. In effect the width should be supplied high by Mario and Dos Santos. Jaime Costa will support but dont expect him to overlap too high.

5) Strikeforce, been ages since i did anything with 2 strikers, so need to work up a combo. I have gone with Dos Santos dropping deep and using his ability on the ball hopefully. At the moment i see Uche as being there to occupy the dline and perhaps push them back a bit, as well as be an option for balls in behind. I can see that second striker role being somewhat flexible throughout the season.

Mentality wise i have gone counter. I see this shape as being more suited to that, with 2 strikers but no AMC i dont think slow possession is the way to go. I dont think deep and direct is either, so whilst i have gone counter i have added "higher tempo" and "Push higher up" to somewhat mitigate some parts of "counter". Only other TI are "low crosses" and "work ball into the box". The latter i find is needed in every single tactic to avoid needless long shots, the former as neither striker, nor my back up (Vietto) is good in the air. I might consider "early crosses" too since my strikers are pacey.

Only played 2 friendlies so far, first was a good 1 nil win over Hull, when things looked to take shape not bad. Second was a disaster of a 3 v 0 loss to Bilbao Athletic (Athletic's B team - can imagine how much that hurt if you have seen my other thread on here!)

I need to get some screenshots ingame of how the shape pans out, the Libero and RGA combo looked good so far but lets see how we do against better teams.......

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Jambo, I'd be interested in having a go at this.

No probs:

NDavis95 - 4240 DM Wide

You get what i think is the only strikerless default tactic :) Not so bad, since pretty much all the strikers in the squad are capable of playing either wide or AMC.

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Hey Jambo, just a few questions. You didn't mention manager stats, is it ok if just tick the option to find something suited for Villareal ? Also can we load any number of leagues? And are those 2 permanent transfers + 1 loan per season / per transfer window ?

I know this is a predominantly tactical thread but wanted to clarify these things just so I know I start on the same level with everyone.

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Hey Jambo, just a few questions. You didn't mention manager stats, is it ok if just tick the option to find something suited for Villareal ? Also can we load any number of leagues? And are those 2 permanent transfers + 1 loan per season / per transfer window ?

I know this is a predominantly tactical thread but wanted to clarify these things just so I know I start on the same level with everyone.

Yeah just go with whatever you like for manager stats - i dont think at a club like this it will make much difference (although it might impact team talks, but i am not so fussy personally). Leagues you can load whatever suits you/your PC so go for it.

The 2 transfer and 1 loan is for the entire season - It is to keep the squad largely comparable across all the tactics. Will be easier for some tactics than others, but to be fair i think the squad has just about the spread of all positions to start with so should be easy enough to achieve :) Couple of decent players in the B team can be called upon as well.

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