TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[mr.rooney]

Definately a worthy read for anyone that is struggling with the game (including me!). I've still been quite bored with the game recently, but I have been playing it, and have a few ideas on tactics that might just excite that spark again.

Thanks on a great read.

[bean feast]

Hats off to a wonderful effort, wwfan, I have to applaud that.

Otherwise, this is just a long-winded mathematical instruction booklet that allows people to paint by numbers, or to succeed (probably) with just that particular form of 4-4-2 that you are using. Not to disrespect your hard work, but I read it a little and was instantly bored with the numerous equations and numbers babble. Is this what the game has become? Must we delve in to the programming and the code this deeply to be successful? NO! We don't. I have taken Skunthorpe (I spell it like this because the program picks up a naughty word otherwise) to the Premiership in only two seasons with a very average squad. How did I succeed? I have no magic formula like you do. I just win. You can select virtually any formation with virtually any team and get results providing you watch the game and react to it. Why? Because you are human. The game is designed so that you always have an advantage. Otherwise, how would you ever succeed with lower teams? It's a COMPUTER GAME!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm all about listening to good theories and the like, but all of this math talk is far too much. Why oh why has it come to this? It's a game folks, it's not a bloody science experiment. There are millions upon millions of ways to succeed in this game without having to know high level calculus and quantum theory.

Because there are so many different formulas/slider combinations, it's impossible to really know 'why' you are successful due to the lack of feedback in the game. I find myself sitting pretty in the Premier League and I really just don't know why. I think therefore I am. No two games are the same, so no two of my tactics are the same. You can't say that you won the last game because the defensive line was set to 2 for example. There are just too many variables. Add that to the fact that you admitted that some of your theories are based on 'logic', then how can anyone really take this seriously?...

[SGartz]

bean feast, If you do not like this thread then kindly log off and save your unwelcome remarks please. No one here wants to hear your rant.

People can play the game how they like so lets live and let live no?

[adonis]

excellent stuff as always wwfan!!

Regarding your mentality range for away games where you are heavy favourites. I have found that the range of 9-15 works better with my man utd team. Tries the previous one 6-12 against 3 teams that were bottom and I struggled alot, far too many of my players were making backward passes,(especially to my GK) even my target striker from halfway in the opposition half. I noticed the difference straightaway when i switched over to the range 9-15, the team play was much better and more potent in going forward.

[bean feast]

I just can't help but think that all this effort could be better utilized by solving the world's global warming crisis. Can anyone come up with a formula for that please? What sliders should I change to decrease the CO2 levels in the atmosphere? What if I don't want the Arctic cap countering and flooding the low countries of Europe, Southern Asia, and North America? What should my defensive line be?...

[wwfan]

@ Stephanie MacMahon's Secret Lover: I agree about the full-backs and holding up ball, but it does seem to add stability to the team. They only seem to hold it up when under no pressure which allows the other players time to get into position.

@ ste1978: No worries on adding tactics to the thread. You might want to start your own thread supporting them if you want a lot of people testing though.

Short Passing and Width

It does seem a few people are struggling with team potency here. I would only play with a width less than 6 if I am very, very sure my players' technical abilities will shine through in a tight system. If you are unsure this is the case, try a width of 8-12 instead. It also seems reasonably important to employ higher closing down for full-backs, as in Diaby's variations, if you are using a narow formation.

@ Gabi80: Nobody will have translated this into any language as yet. A while back someone asked me if they could translate my work into Polish, but I can't remember what site they used.

@ fg: Creative freedom is very much down to individual users. I have no 'best' settings for it, but would stay away from employing it for any players other than forwards, wingers, or attacking midfielders. The d-line matches the closing down of the MCs because it seems to work. A high d-line means that high closing down MCs will try to win the ball high up the pitch which is only dangerous for the opposition. A low d-line needs low closing down MCs as they will otherwise try to commit to winning the ball just outside their own penalty area which is dangerous for the defending side.

@ bean feast: I agree that a lot of it is very mathematical, but I don't see how I can avoid that if my aim is to offer advice on building tactics in general. As SI point out in the manual, mentality is the most important instruction, so a methodical and mathematical approach towards it (as it is not an element of real-life football) seems to be the best option. I'm not suggesting a watch and learn approach is not viable, as that is how I learn myself, and neonlights often ran threads supporting such a method. However, if I have learned something I need to convert it into a framework that is easily translatable into the game engine for everyone who reads my stuff, and the number-based frameworks seem the best option. Consistent results (you will note I have played four seasons before posting this) offers a proven level of reliability and thus can allow me to 'know' how and why I am successful and write about it in a way that is easy for everyone to follow.

As for your slightly ironic tone on the ice-caps etc, I do, in real life, work towards improving peoples' lives, although, like my FM stuff, I write mainly theory. The FM writing is a release from the heavy socio-philosophical debates I deal with on a day-to-day basis. Without it my head would in all likelihood explode.

[crazy gra]

FFS bean feast. you said exactly the same thing in the last TT+F thread, so why bring it up again?

This thread is a great guide for anyone playing FM who wants help/new ideas with tactics. wwfan has never stated that his tactics will work for all situations, but has merely made successful tactics by tweaking things for different games. If wwfan had created ultimate tactics, then he wouldn't have lost any games he's played would he?

Most users will probably have more success by tweaking some of the things that wwfan has suggested, but afterall it's only a guideline so won't fit as well for different teams.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> @ fg: Creative freedom is very much down to individual users. I have no 'best' settings for it, but would stay away from employing it for any players other than forwards, wingers, or attacking midfielders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only have high(ish) CF for the MCa and the wingers.

wwfan: Implemented a lot of your ideas and it's working well so far. I've changed to a 4-4-2 for the moment, but I'm loving the defensive stability I get with it. Played Fulham away as Man Utd using similar tactics to the away attacking apporach and dominated. Won 3-0 but as I said, defensively I was excellent and what I liked best was that my full backs stayed marking the opposing winger rather than closing down the opposing full back, who was tracked by my wingers.

Incidentally, my individual mentalities ranged from 6-14 in a RoT style. Most team instructions were around 10 except for CF.

[Barca4ever]

wwfan this is great. Im struggling with this game right now so Im gonna definately try some of your theories. But I have no doubt they will work. Thanks a lot for your help.

[LeftWing]

WWfan big up yourself for your many contributions. I agree entirely with you in your analysis that that quality of players over the course of the season should prevent the small clubs with human managers out performing them through tactics. Honestly with all the testing you've done, I think you deserve to be hired on at SI. Anyway, like many I have a question. Can you explain how you adjust your tactics in game for holding a lead, especially in away games? I'm managing a small team (5k stadium, 0 transfer budget) in Brazil and any lead lead is a precious one.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeftWing:

WWfan big up yourself for your many contributions. I agree entirely with you in your analysis that that quality of players over the course of the season should prevent the small clubs with human managers out performing them through tactics. Honestly with all the testing you've done, I think you deserve to be hired on at SI. Anyway, like many I have a question. Can you explain how you adjust your tactics in game for holding a lead, especially in away games? I'm managing a small team (5k stadium, 0 transfer budget) in Brazil and any lead lead is a precious one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would probably switch to the away tactic at circa 70 mins. If the odds were close away I would start with the attacking away framework and switch if things began to look a little tricky. Same for the home tactics, although I mat well switch to the attacking away at first and only to the away for the last 5-10 mins.

[wwfan]

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to take this guy on and the time difference would be prohibitive, but if anyone who has decent online capacity wants to using these theories then be my guest.

Alternatively, you could just laugh at him.

[FourThreeThree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

Hats off to a wonderful effort, wwfan, I have to applaud that.

Otherwise, this is just a long-winded mathematical instruction booklet that allows people to paint by numbers, or to succeed (probably) with just that particular form of 4-4-2 that you are using. Not to disrespect your hard work, but I read it a little and was instantly bored with the numerous equations and numbers babble. Is this what the game has become? Must we delve in to the programming and the code this deeply to be successful? NO! We don't. I have taken Skunthorpe (I spell it like this because the program picks up a naughty word otherwise) to the Premiership in only two seasons with a very average squad. How did I succeed? I have no magic formula like you do. I just win. You can select virtually any formation with virtually any team and get results providing you watch the game and react to it. Why? Because you are human. The game is designed so that you always have an advantage. Otherwise, how would you ever succeed with lower teams? It's a COMPUTER GAME!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm all about listening to good theories and the like, but all of this math talk is far too much. Why oh why has it come to this? It's a game folks, it's not a bloody science experiment. There are millions upon millions of ways to succeed in this game without having to know high level calculus and quantum theory.

Because there are so many different formulas/slider combinations, it's impossible to really know 'why' you are successful due to the lack of feedback in the game. I find myself sitting pretty in the Premier League and I really just don't know why. I think therefore I am. No two games are the same, so no two of my tactics are the same. You can't say that you won the last game because the defensive line was set to 2 for example. There are just too many variables. Add that to the fact that you admitted that some of your theories are based on 'logic', then how can anyone really take this seriously?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> So, tell us the things we should pick up from how the computer is playing us? This is afterall a technical forum so now that you have let the cat out of your bag, I would love to know how to counter because sometimes I cannot react and let my keeper be the super keeper (which is rarely the case).

[De_Savage]

Brilliant work! Very informative and easy to read.

I'll definitely try to implement these tips to create a new tactic for my team. I'm closing mid-season and new tactic is needed anyway.

Thanx a lot!

[FrazT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

Hats off to a wonderful effort, wwfan, I have to applaud that.

Otherwise, this is just a long-winded mathematical instruction booklet that allows people to paint by numbers, or to succeed (probably) with just that particular form of 4-4-2 that you are using. Not to disrespect your hard work, but I read it a little and was instantly bored with the numerous equations and numbers babble. Is this what the game has become? Must we delve in to the programming and the code this deeply to be successful? NO! We don't. I have taken Skunthorpe (I spell it like this because the program picks up a naughty word otherwise) to the Premiership in only two seasons with a very average squad. How did I succeed? I have no magic formula like you do. I just win. You can select virtually any formation with virtually any team and get results providing you watch the game and react to it. Why? Because you are human. The game is designed so that you always have an advantage. Otherwise, how would you ever succeed with lower teams? It's a COMPUTER GAME!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm all about listening to good theories and the like, but all of this math talk is far too much. Why oh why has it come to this? It's a game folks, it's not a bloody science experiment. There are millions upon millions of ways to succeed in this game without having to know high level calculus and quantum theory.

Because there are so many different formulas/slider combinations, it's impossible to really know 'why' you are successful due to the lack of feedback in the game. I find myself sitting pretty in the Premier League and I really just don't know why. I think therefore I am. No two games are the same, so no two of my tactics are the same. You can't say that you won the last game because the defensive line was set to 2 for example. There are just too many variables. Add that to the fact that you admitted that some of your theories are based on 'logic', then how can anyone really take this seriously?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it is a game and there is room in any game for each player to play the game as they choose- if you choose to get the best out it by doing what you do, then that is fine but dont belittle the work done by others who are trying to take the game seriously, understand the game and thereby get better.

This thread has already had 1500 hits in 1 day so there is obviously a need and desire from some players to read and learn- if you consider that to be taking the game too seriously then dont bother with the thread but let those who do contribute without comment.

[FrazT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to take this guy on and the time difference would be prohibitive, but if anyone who has decent online capacity wants to using these theories then be my guest.

wwfan- thought this guys thread was briiliant coming the same day as the first page of your new thread and his words about Chelsea were almost word for word with yours- priceless. As is my ususal I have suggested that he reads some of the threads in here for help- he might even find TT&F IV !

Alternatively, you could just laugh at him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[FrazT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to take this guy on and the time difference would be prohibitive, but if anyone who has decent online capacity wants to using these theories then be my guest.

Alternatively, you could just laugh at him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try again:

wwfan- thought this guys thread was briiliant coming the same day as the first page of your new thread and his words about Chelsea were almost word for word with yours- priceless. As is my ususal I have suggested that he reads some of the threads in here for help- he might even find TT&F IV

[Dayle Wood]

WWfan - just a quick question - If your home strategy uses the more narrow width to match passing and tempo therefore according to your focus passing it should be down the middle...

Is this right? There are wingers making forward runs down the wing yet the passing is focussed down the middle? Are you suggesting then away from home passing should be focussed down the wings? Could you clarify this as I usually like to pass down the wings at home but your theoram seems to be contrary to this.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

WWfan - just a quick question - If your home strategy uses the more narrow width to match passing and tempo therefore according to your focus passing it should be down the middle...

Is this right? There are wingers making forward runs down the wing yet the passing is focussed down the middle? Are you suggesting then away from home passing should be focussed down the wings? Could you clarify this as I usually like to pass down the wings at home but your theoram seems to be contrary to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hypothetical only. If you can disprove it feel free.

[Guest]

Could someone edit out the pictures on the first page? They mess up the layout. Normally I'd just print out the relevant bits but I my printer ran out of ink while blurting out TTF07

[Dayle Wood]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

WWfan - just a quick question - If your home strategy uses the more narrow width to match passing and tempo therefore according to your focus passing it should be down the middle...

Is this right? There are wingers making forward runs down the wing yet the passing is focussed down the middle? Are you suggesting then away from home passing should be focussed down the wings? Could you clarify this as I usually like to pass down the wings at home but your theoram seems to be contrary to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hypothetical only. If you can disprove it feel free. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So are you advocating passing through the middle for home games then? (I mean no offense just curious as this is something I've never done before).

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

WWfan - just a quick question - If your home strategy uses the more narrow width to match passing and tempo therefore according to your focus passing it should be down the middle...

Is this right? There are wingers making forward runs down the wing yet the passing is focussed down the middle? Are you suggesting then away from home passing should be focussed down the wings? Could you clarify this as I usually like to pass down the wings at home but your theoram seems to be contrary to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hypothetical only. If you can disprove it feel free. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So are you advocating passing through the middle for home games then? (I mean no offense just curious as this is something I've never done before). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. I play with average width as I like my midfielders having the full range of passing options. However, if you wish to play a slow build up continental game (narrow, short, slow) then focus passing through the middle should (hypothetically) support it. However, this is theoretical only and I haven't tested it. I would suggest you run a three game test and see if it is having the stylistic results you are looking for. If you don't want to cheat and reload if it fails, just start a quick game and play three home friendlies with a side comparable to your current one. I would be very interesting in hearing how well this hypothesis works.

[Dayle Wood]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

WWfan - just a quick question - If your home strategy uses the more narrow width to match passing and tempo therefore according to your focus passing it should be down the middle...

Is this right? There are wingers making forward runs down the wing yet the passing is focussed down the middle? Are you suggesting then away from home passing should be focussed down the wings? Could you clarify this as I usually like to pass down the wings at home but your theoram seems to be contrary to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hypothetical only. If you can disprove it feel free. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So are you advocating passing through the middle for home games then? (I mean no offense just curious as this is something I've never done before). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. I play with average width as I like my midfielders having the full range of passing options. However, if you wish to play a slow build up continental game (narrow, short, slow) then focus passing through the middle should (hypothetically) support it. However, this is theoretical only and I haven't tested it. I would suggest you run a three game test and see if it is having the stylistic results you are looking for. If you don't want to cheat and reload if it fails, just start a quick game and play three home friendlies with a side comparable to your current one. I would be very interesting in hearing how well this hypothesis works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ok mate thanks for your answer and time... I'll fiddle about a little and see what works best.

[crazy gra]

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't, but I'm reasonably direct anyway. If I was playing short and slow I would.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

I'm currently in the Conference North and even though I already employ a lot of wwfan's philosophy I still cannot stop conceeding goals. I was expected to finish 17th but managed 16th despite being last most of the season.

Believe it or not we actually top scored with 84 goals but conceeded 88!

The signs were there when we won our first game 7-5!!!

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question, id like to add another, do you ever take it off counter attacking at home as i found that you do draw the opposition on to you at times and it can lead to a goal or a mistake from your team to setup a goal.

I tried the ones in the other forum with my successful arsenal side for a few games but found that the draw of opposition to me is something i didnt like. So i went back to my other tactic and win me the WCC and put me 11pts clear at the top of prem after 28 games.

Yes your tactic is solid but just didnt like the way the oppo came on to you and how much you relied on the counter.

You can on ly counter if the team is coming towards you, if you are at home to a weaker side then i wouldnt play counter at all.

So would you consider changing from counter at hom to just away? Be interesting to know what you think.

Just my opinions there from what i have noticed.

[Guest]

I play an attacking formation 442 with both arrows, was a mod from last years tactic you made which have been developed for 07. Been very successful with them came 2nd last year won the FA and CL in same year and as i have said won the WCC and on course to wint the prem.

With rangers i won the SPL,LC FA and Uefa in first season. So my adapted tactic has been very successful.

One mod i have taken on board since this post is that keeping the tempo in line with the width and passing. This seems to flow better and keeps it tighter.

I will after securing the league have a look at your new set and see what i can do with it to suit my style of play. Short,fast and attacking even away from home.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't, but I'm reasonably direct anyway. If I was playing short and slow I would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, i probably wouldn't change it away either as i'd play 10 or 14 tempo, passing and width in away games.

put passing up to 9 from 6 for a home game at half time, but left tempo and width at 6. was 1-0 up at half time and won 4-0 eventually. played much better football and created better chances too. should have increased width too really.

[Millie]

Bean feast, while you say that the game is random and that you just "react" to what happens, there has to be a set of basic instructions upon which one can react. The simple fact is that this is, as you rightly say, a computer game. There must be a mathematical approach which will produce clean results. And, like you say, people can play the game a whole number of ways. For those that don't just magic success out of the ether (like you do, it seems), this is a great way of producing at least a tactic which will do alright - a tactic that will produce results applicable to their team - maybe even better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

I have no magic formula like you do. I just win. You can select virtually any formation with virtually any team and get results providing you watch the game and react to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you react? You must have based this on something? If it's your own inate football knowledge, then that is exactly what wwfan has done. A mathematical application onto the sliders of how teams play in real life. If you've ever used his frameworks (and I have quite a bit) you'll see the teams play as they would in real life. The formulae do not have their basis in 1s and 0s but in real-life association football.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are millions upon millions of ways to succeed in this game without having to know high level calculus and quantum theory.

Because there are so many different formulas/slider combinations, it's impossible to really know 'why' you are successful due to the lack of feedback in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, wwfan's "quantum theory" is pretty simple. Everything is logical. There's no real maths to do. Each of the sliders compliments the other exactly - the mentality is set starting from a base number and going up in ones. Not difficult, just a bit logical.

Second, if you play the game over and over again, changing one slider at a time you will pretty soon work out what each one does. For instance, if I play Watford and am only drawing 0-0 then put my defensive line back and find out I'm now ****ing all over them, chances are it was my defensive line that was in the wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Add that to the fact that you admitted that some of your theories are based on 'logic', then how can anyone really take this seriously?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? I'm sorry, but this has no logic. A logical system is, by its nature, logical. You obviously know Descartes - 'je pense, donc je suis'. We live in a scientific society. We test things based on our own logic rather than prejudices. I'd sooner read something that had been extensively tested and based on logic than, say, download some guy's "soopa taktik" with Barcelona.

I must admit, I feel a little uneasy about the mathematical nature of these frameworks, but the reason they're like that is because they work, and they're based on real-life logic.

Methinks you were just after a reaction. Mission accomplished.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't, but I'm reasonably direct anyway. If I was playing short and slow I would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, i probably wouldn't change it away either as i'd play 10 or 14 tempo, passing and width in away games.

put passing up to 9 from 6 for a home game at half time, but left tempo and width at 6. was 1-0 up at half time and won 4-0 eventually. played much better football and created better chances too. should have increased width too really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its obvious that you would need to change the passing from short to a more normal/direct style if the weather is heavy same the other way if it is windy.

The ball would stick and be harder to implement a passing game in wet conditions.

[Beevster]

Nice summery of your findings in 07

Thanks for the mention too

[Nick A]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

I just can't help but think that all this effort could be better utilized by solving the world's global warming crisis. Can anyone come up with a formula for that please? What sliders should I change to decrease the CO2 levels in the atmosphere? What if I don't want the Arctic cap countering and flooding the low countries of Europe, Southern Asia, and North America? What should my defensive line be?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turning your computer and internet connection off would certainly help reduce CO2.

[StokedOnCity]

Just spent an hour and a half reading... Off to testing!

You are a really good man, wwfan. Cheers for sharing your ideas with everyone, even if for some they don't work.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't, but I'm reasonably direct anyway. If I was playing short and slow I would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, i probably wouldn't change it away either as i'd play 10 or 14 tempo, passing and width in away games.

put passing up to 9 from 6 for a home game at half time, but left tempo and width at 6. was 1-0 up at half time and won 4-0 eventually. played much better football and created better chances too. should have increased width too really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its obvious that you would need to change the passing from short to a more normal/direct style if the weather is heavy same the other way if it is windy.

The ball would stick and be harder to implement a passing game in wet conditions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know that and I've made tactics for wet weather situations for a while. I was just saying how much I changed some sliders by.

[Mic P]

First off WWFan, great read ... has really cleared somethings up for me, and also helped me find answers as to why my high flying Fulham team have suddenly hit a slump circa January :-)

Quick question though ... you say Creative Freedom is done on a person by person perspective, but how do you figure out how much to give a player in each position !?

Is there a calculation we can apply to this !? Maybe something such as ...

((Creativity + Decisions)/2)/Positional Rating

Where Positional Rating depends on where the players plays on the pitch, such a 9 for defenders, 6 for midfielders and 1 for forwards !?

[KurtBevacqua]

Another great read wwfan. I don't always agree with what you are doing, but I always get new ideas from your work.

I will say the 442 with arrows set to make it into a semi-diamond continues to be very playable. I have also found that the very, very best strategy is one tailored to your players. I set my mentality to what I like to think is a rule of 2.5 (in between 2's and 3's), but otherwise darn near everything else I do is tailored to the talents of the guy playing.

Which brings me to my next point, it's really, really important you get guys whose talent matches the kind of football you want to play. So it's a chicken and egg thing. Your strategy should match your talent, while your talent should support your strategy. How's that possible?

Well, I like central defenders who run and jump real well, are excellent at positioning, and great markers. I get guys in that mold, set the line forward, and put them on tight marking.

I like FBs who cross well, mark very well, tackle well, and position themselves well. I also like them good on set pieces for corners and throw ins. So I use the rule of 2's to tie my FBs and center defenders together mentally, then set the FBs to mark tightly, close down, and tackle hard.

For my way of playing the MR and ML are really the key. I need guys who run well, cross well, shoot decently from outside, dribble well, and pass well. Acceleration and pace are the key. I want them bringing the ball up the flanks quickly to hopefully draw defenders and FBs up, then release the cross inside for the score, or maybe drive past and take their own shot. If the defenders don't bite, then they can shoot themselves.

My DMC is a guy who is smart, strong, heads well, tackles and marks well. Essentially a center defender with more ball skills. If he can shoot well, then fine I'll set him to take long shots. Like my center defenders I let him go high on through balls, but never run forward, never run with the ball. The DMC needs to be anchor of my defense.

My remaining MC could be a playmaker I suppose, but I usually don't set him like that. He needs to dribble well, pass well, shoot long well, mark and tackle well, really be just a solid all around player who's most important role is to play good D in the middle of the field and not make mistakes. He also plays through balls alot and doesn't need to run forward as the arrow is already set to move him up. If he is particularly skill I may have him run the ball forward, but it's not a requirement.

As for strikers, really depends on the talent I have on hand. I can work with anything. Ideally I want at least one big guy and one speed demon. It's really nice to get a big guy who runs and dribbles well. Even nicer to get a speed guy who has great long shot abilities. Guys like that are devastating as they can score from anywhere on the pitch. Think Henry.

I have experimented with setting target men and found no particular advantage to it. As long as I have a big guy and a speed guy who both finish well and an MR and ML who pass/cross well and enough speed to open things up then I can do pretty much what I want. Everyone else needs to be solid and not make mistakes.

I set my backline a bit forward, my width a bit wide, subject to change as the game progressess, time wasting low, tempo low (I want a concise, efficient offense). Creative freedom is solely based on each player's talents. Really nice to get a striker who is creative and makes good decisions. Even better to find one who is fast, makes long shots, and finishes well. That guy will score 25-30 goals for you every year.

All of these team settings are subject to change depending on the situation. If we are behind I may go extra wide, up the tempo. If we are ahead, slow the tempo, narrow things down, move the D-line back.

I'm playing with Celtic, have won 4-straight SPL's, 4 straight Scottish Cups, 2 straight League Cups, and have made the final 8 of the Champion's League 3 straight seasons (damn Inter to hell as that's the team who has knocked me out every time). Conversely I am the bane of Real Madrid as I have knocked them out three years in a row.

I like this version of the game more than 06. All this gameplanning has really helped my understand football so much better. A year ago I hardly ever watched and hardly cared. Now I watch all the time and feel like I at least have a clue what is going on in a game.

[aston_martin]

wwfan, you are a legend! ive only played a few games using your theorems and frameworks(slightly adapted to my liking)the reasults are amazing, my team is playing amazing free-flowing football(move over arsenal:P) but when we lose the ball we are amazingly well-organized and solid(haven't conceded yet)

KUTGW mate

p.s. sorry to go off topic wwfan, but is Australia good? I'm thinking of moving there in a few years time

cheers, aston

[AndyPipkin]

My, my, my... after 3 seasons managing an edited Newcastle United team, based on the FM Weegie update (edited to be worse, not better, and only given £2.5m to spend) I decided it was time to freshen things up and began looking around for inspiration... and happily I found this thread.

On the back of finishing 3rd and 5th in my first two seasons, without any cup success (but two semi-finals - typical!) I somehow managed to win the league and the FA Cup in my third year (mainly thanks to playing in the UEFA Cup instead of the Champions League = more games for my "second eleven" = fresher starting eleven.)

Anyway, I didn't really win the league in style and not one of my forwards had scored over 13 goals in a league season, so I was hoping to change to a more adventurous system. (Had previously used my own 4-4-2 that I have always employed on the FM series.) This thread opened up a lot of new ideas to me and despite starting my 4th seasons with 8 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses from my opening 11 games (in all comps), I was beginning to get bored with how the team played.

My senior squad is as follows:

Anyway, I thought this thread looked fantastic when I read it and instantly set off to put wwfan's ideas into practice, but altering them slightly into 5 different systems (it's a better fit for me, as I have: a. home formation b. ultra defensive away c. defensive away d. attacking away e. ultra attacking away.)

My chosen mentalities are (GK-CF's):

Home: 13-19

Away (Ultra Attacking): 10-16

Away (Attacking): 7-13

Away (Defensive): 4-10

Away (Ultra Defensive): 1-7

I've been switching between all of them and have so far had the following results:

Charlton (a) - Second Eleven - 1-2 W

Portsmouth (a) - First Eleven - 1-2 W (AET)

Middlesboro' (h) - First Eleven - 2-0 W

Inter Milan (a) - Second Eleven - 0-4 W (!)

The last one really demonstrates for me the quality of wwfan's tactics, because (despite having 3 wins from 3 in my opening group games) I would NEVER have expected such a result against a full-strength Inter in the San Siro...

Here are a few screens of the match:

4 games played, 4 wins... with constant variation between the 5 variables of wwfan's basic template. The football my team play at times is actually now exciting to watch as Zigic/Carew work WITH Owen/Martins and the opposition are getting men sent off as they struggle to cope with the speed of my breaks and the quality of the passing.

Things started off shakey, but surely the results will only improve as the players get more used to the new systems?

(PS: I was using ultra-defensive against Inter.)

[Louis1985]

Great work wwfan, im not one of the people who follow these ideas word for word but I certainly have a lot of respect for such an intelligent insight into the greatest game of all time. Reading things like this puts more in my locker and I am going to adapt my methods around some of your theories. Hats off to you!

[supersaint]

Yet again a great post wwfan

I must admit that I havent played the game in a while now, mainly because I got fed up with it. I think I might pick it up again now

[paz]

I've had absolutely no luck with these frameworks I'm afraid. I just can't get a solid defensive base at all and my team are completely impotent going forward most of the time. Possesion, pass completion and match ratings are never at a level you'd like to see.

Here is an example match which someone more knowledgable might care to interpret.

http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/809bf525d43d21f1c5090...smouth-v-Reading.pkm

I am Reading, away to Portsmouth and they are clear favourites so I employ the defensive away tactic and wish the team luck in the pre-match team talk. Carnage ensues.

[crazy gra]

wwfan - how do you play when playing against high tempo teams in away games? These teams seem to be the bane of me in FM07 as I'm sure you remember me going on about playing Bolton many times.

Situation: Playing as Man Utd, away game against Boro where I was 1-2 favourites to win.

I'd already had good results by using the frameworks you detailed for the away attacking tactics by beating Fulham and PSV away, both 3-0. The individual mentalities were between 6 and 14 and tempo/passing/width were all 10.

So I used this against Boro, but got beat 4-0. Although I wasn't as defensively sound as I had been against Fulham and PSV, 3 of their goals should have been saved by Van der Sar, who had a shocker. The game was quite evenly matched, especially in terms of the stats, but all SOTs I had were somehow kept out by Schwarzer, who had a blinder. The main difference seemed to be their effectiveness to counter me.

Played the game again, but this time tweaked the tactic so it was similar to the normal away tactic in the hope that I'd stop them getting as many chances in the last game. With the more defensive approach (mentalities of 2-8) and hence a lower d-line (of 5), I was much more solid at the back. The problem in this game was that I really had nothing going forward myself and hardly tested their defence. The game ended 0-0. A bore draw.

This then gave me good ideas for playing again. Kept the defence similar, but made the attackers slightly more attacking. These are the mentalities I used:

GK - 10 (always like to have the GK sweeping long balls away)

DR/L - 4

DCs - 2

MCd- 6

MCa - 8

MR/L - 8

STs - 10

I put tempo, passing and width down to 6 as in my home tactic. Although the d-line was 6 (to suit the mentalities), I had time wasting at 10 because I wanted to time waste a little, but having a high time wasting in the 2nd game really didn't help me IMO.

This game was a lot better than the last two. I was just as solid defensively but much better going forward. Again, however, Schwarzer had a very good game but I managed to score two goals against them. I only drew this game 2-2, but one of their goals was an own goal and the other a Downing freekick from just outside the area.

This screenshot shows how much I dominated the game. In the end, I was just unlucky but will carry on using this tactic for similar games.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

wwfan: just out of interest, do you change passing according to adverse weather conditions in your games? i.e. more direct with a wet pitch and shorter when it's blowing a gale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question, id like to add another, do you ever take it off counter attacking at home as I found that you do draw the opposition on to you at times and it can lead to a goal or a mistake from your team to setup a goal.

I tried the ones in the other forum with my successful arsenal side for a few games but found that the draw of opposition to me is something I didn’t like. So I went back to my other tactic and win me the WCC and put me 11pts clear at the top of prem after 28 games.

Yes your tactic is solid but just didn’t like the way the opposition came on to you and how much you relied on the counter.

You can only counter if the team is coming towards you, if you are at home to a weaker side then I wouldn’t play counter at all.

So would you consider changing from counter at home to just away? Be interesting to know what you think.

Just my opinions there from what i have noticed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use counter-attack in every match and only untick it if the opposition are time wasting from the word go. However, I am Blyth Spartans, so I'm hardly ever long-odds favourite at home, so teams time wasting against me from the word go is a rarity. You are Arsenal, so you probably will be. If that is the case then I would undoubtedly think about turning off counter-attack for home games.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mic P:

First off WWFan, great read ... has really cleared something up for me, and also helped me find answers as to why my high flying Fulham team have suddenly hit a slump circa January :-)

Quick question though ... you say Creative Freedom is done on a person by person perspective, but how do you figure out how much to give a player in each position !?

Is there a calculation we can apply to this !? Maybe something such as ...

((Creativity + Decisions)/2)/Positional Rating

Where Positional Rating depends on where the players plays on the pitch, such a 9 for defenders, 6 for midfielders and 1 for forwards !? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was playing around with setting CF based on averaging the values of creativity, flair, decisions and teamwork, but I stopped as I wanted to focus on other things. It may be worth while fiddling about with for the front players or wingers though.

@ KurtBevacqua: I agree that player quality is vitally important and have player types I like (tall, strong and quick defenders, tall, quick wingers, passing midfielders and strikers who can dribble and have a good first touch). However, if you start in the Conf North, getting player types you want is a luxury.

@ aston_martin: Glad you are doing well. Australia is great.

@ paz: I’ll try and have a look later. I’m not sure why or how you are struggling defensively, as the solidity of the defence is the major building block for the frameworks.

Notes

There is no need for anyone to think you should follow everything letter for letter. I would advise tweaking things around player considerations, or personal playing preference.

[wwfan]

@ crazy gra: You are playing at a level about which I can only be hypothetical. I would be looking to employ my away attack or the hypothetical fourth framework if I had a world class side playing away with odds favouring me to win. It seems your last performance did what you wanted it to. Until I get to that level myself my replies can only be best guesses, so it would be better for you to experiment and post some 'best' settings once you are happy with them.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

@ crazy gra: You are playing at a level about which I can only be hypothetical. I would be looking to employ my away attack or the hypothetical fourth framework if I had a world class side playing away with odds favouring me to win. It seems your last performance did what you wanted it to. Until I get to that level myself my replies can only be best guesses, so it would be better for you to experiment and post some 'best' settings once you are happy with them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers for the reply. As i said, the away attack has so far worked in my away games against teams that i'm favourites for, but it seems that playing against high tempo opposition (favourites or not) is a completely different scenario.

If I had been heavily expected to lose, then the normal away may have worked due to the opposition being more offensive and therefore allowing me better counter attacks. In this situation, I needed a greater emphasis on attack, so a combination of the two away frameworks seems to have done the trick.

I'll keep reporting back, especially after playing annoying high tempo opposition! It's interesting to point out that (semi-incidentally) I've been using RoT in my away frameworks quite successfully so far.

[FourThreeThree]

paz, how do you set up your defence? On the opposition instruction I find it effective to mark tightly thier strikers, like everyone else here does but this time I took off closing down always and my central defenders do a much better job to an extent the AI would switch thier players very early in the game.

The theory is, a good team or player would outplay a high closing down opposition. They would run around chasing the game. I did not want this to happen to my central defenders, and the tight marking on thier stikers provided a much solid defence, less distrupted.

On away games my global mentality bar goes all the way back to 2.

[alantas]

FM has turned us all into Nerds. NERDS I TELL YOU!

-sigh-

But hey, i really admire your observations and theories, and i really commend you for your patience and diligence to try to break down FM into simple (for nerds to comprehend. yes, we all are nerds!!) words.

Hopefully the theory holds true and i shall try to build my future tactics upon this. In short, as heard from everybody, Thanks for the Hardwork and Heartfelt Thread.

Keep Up The Good Work. (i refuse to use KUTGW.)

[wwfan]

nerd

1. [mainstream slang] Pejorative applied to anyone with an above-average IQ and few gifts at small talk and ordinary social rituals.

2. [jargon] Term of praise applied (in conscious ironic reference to sense 1) to someone who knows what's really important and interesting and doesn't care to be distracted by trivial chatter and silly status games.

I can certainly identify with the second definition.

[Nick A]

Built up my tactics last night based on this, although I have a squad set for 4-1-2-3 where 1 =DM 2 = 2xAMC and 3=ST, one being a target man and 2 fast.

So far, 3 wins, 3 draws and 1 loss all against league 1/2 teams. I am now 1st in the league (I already playerd a few games on my own tactics and was 6th, but I was very hit and miss) with media predicting me 13th and 7th favourite at the start of the season. The loss had my team playing really badly from the off as well so I put that down to bad play rather than the tactics.

I have also only implemented a basic home and away as yet, with more work to do on creating 3 or 4 more variations.

At this stage, I would say that the tactic is working really well. I'm conceding a lot less goals and scoring more. I'm using the home tactic when I'm predicted to win heavily away.

I'm not playing counter attack at home, but I may switch to that at some point, depending on results.

I certainly feel a lot happier with these tactics and than WWFAN for all the hard work. Its making my game more enjoyable as I now go into games with more than half a chance.

I will probably switch formations later in the season or in the off-season once I have a few more players in my squad as I only have one left-sided midfielder at the mo although one is arriving in January. I have no doubt based upon what I see now that my results will get even better with a 442. Championship here I come!

Mind you, this is not my career game as I decided in FM06 to only ever go career after all patches have been released, so really this game is one to mess around with tactics and database size before starting my main game in mid/late Feb, depending on patch arrival.