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HuddersfieldOwl

Why so hard to get rid of unwanted players - MUST READ THREAD

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No, not quite but the not interested in dropping his standard of football & interested teams not being able to afford the fee & wages rings similar :)

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I'd just like to thank Alex for a great explanation. It doesn't happen often and his explanations made sense, answered all the points and clarified things. Great work.

And if I was a player, recently promoted to the Prem, I wouldn't want to drop back down to the Championship either. Especially if I thought I'd get some Prem games. The reason I'd think I might get some games is due to my wage, squad status and the fact that my agent will tell championship sides that I'm not interested so it'll be hard for you to sell me so you may as well play me. Once I play a few games, you'll either want to keep me or I'll attract another Prem side.

It's why teams like Burnley and Leicester pretty much keep the same squad. Very few first teamers leave on loan. Very few players get sold. It's realistic. You can release them but chances are you've given them a long contract. It's called football management. You should have managed it so that the players you had doubts over had expiring contracts.

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This is obviously the Winston Bogarde situation! He sat in Chelsea's reserve's, surplus to requirements for a few seasons because a) He didn't want to play a lower standard of football b) He was quite happy doing very little for 80 grand a week & c) No other club would match his 80 grand a week

"Why should I throw fifteen million Euro away when it is already mine? At the moment I signed it was in fact my money, my contract."

-Winston Bogarde

That's something that really doesn't appear much in football manager, mostly because of the complaints it would get.

This is the thing, I had to explain to someone new to the series recently that you don't just sign every free transfer you see to a 5 year deal in the hopes of selling them on in the future. It seems to be the idea that you bring in players with the idea of selling them, not building a squad and selling when people actually want the players. In reality, most players who leave clubs tend to be sold when their stocks are high, and otherwise just end up rotting at a club or being paid off. Players who aren't playing aren't likely to generate interest, particularly if they're on high wages.

In my current save I had a striker who when I signed him, I think would go on to be something quite special for the club, got him in on a 4 and a half year deal, and hoped to get the best out of him. Ultimately though, he was ineffectual, didn't fit the club, and then got a serious injury. He ended up at best a cameo players, but had a long, comparatively expensive contract. I've since managed to move him on (had him on the transfer list for a while), but I needed to pay about half his contract for his remaining 2 years to do so. It was quite refreshing really. Annoying, but refreshing.

It all reminds me of watching any number of clubs imploding, or players careers collapsing though. Mediocre players on big wages end up going nowhere as they have no reason to move on while the money is coming in, and no one is going to match it. Clubs that have signed players up on big contracts before going up tend to be stuck with them in the top tier.

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I'd just like to thank Alex for a great explanation. It doesn't happen often and his explanations made sense, answered all the points and clarified things. Great work.

And if I was a player, recently promoted to the Prem, I wouldn't want to drop back down to the Championship either. Especially if I thought I'd get some Prem games. The reason I'd think I might get some games is due to my wage, squad status and the fact that my agent will tell championship sides that I'm not interested so it'll be hard for you to sell me so you may as well play me. Once I play a few games, you'll either want to keep me or I'll attract another Prem side.

It's why teams like Burnley and Leicester pretty much keep the same squad. Very few first teamers leave on loan. Very few players get sold. It's realistic. You can release them but chances are you've given them a long contract. It's called football management. You should have managed it so that the players you had doubts over had expiring contracts.

Completely agree, great explanation Alex.

Keep up the good work.

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Please read Alex's explanation. You're looking at it from the other clubs' point of view when you're repeatedly being told it's the players who aren't interested in dropping divisions. Burnley and Swansea seem to want 2 of your players, but they don't have the money.

Did you actually read the post you replied too ? Or just jump straight to the defence of Alex, totally blind ?

That entire post you quoted was about the PLAYERS ... as you underlined.

They have all been set NOT NEEDED a full season and a bit... have all been in the RESERVES and full season and a bit... have all been set LOAN LISTED for a full season and a bit and have all been set TRANSFER LSITED for a full season and a bit

YOu are trying to tell me that all 6 players in this situation are happy to remain and won't drop down a division to play regular football .... it is so, so apparant they are not going to part of any squad

If you believe that none of these players in real life COULD BE SOLD FOR FREE... or COULD BE LOANED OUT AT NO SINGLE COST... and not one would be interested, or not one club would make an offer, then SI and the game have some major, fundemental flaws in making a FOOTBALL MANAGER game

PS: Someone said about terminating contracts ... I would absolute love too .... if only EVERY player didn't completely refuse mutual termination ..... and my board would not allow normal termination .... yeh great idea ...... something which can only be used for youth players on 500 quid a week

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I don't blindly defend anything. 6 of the 7 players are PL standard. 1 has a work permit problem. That leaves 5.

3 of the 5 don't want to drop divisions. Sorry, THREE don't want to drop. These THREE have INTEREST, but the teams don't have the BUDGET (money ;)). Not sure about the loan situation.

You're not reading. There are clubs INTERESTED in all of them. They do NOT have MONEY. They're not going to make an offer if the player's not interested. They're not going to make an offer if they don't have money. They're not going to make an offer if they have better targets.

Alex is clear (and thanks, btw, Alex): To be perfectly honest you are doing better than average in terms of bringing in players & getting them moved on when not needed, it does look like your expectations are far too high & as I've mention before it also appears that you're bringing in too many free transfers with the idea of loaning them before selling them for a profit, this is a strategy that you might want to reconsider or at least when doing it bring the players in at a much younger age to give them time to develop.

Comprende?

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They have all been set NOT NEEDED a full season and a bit... have all been in the RESERVES and full season and a bit... have all been set LOAN LISTED for a full season and a bit and have all been set TRANSFER LSITED for a full season and a bit

You implied in your OP that you had just been promoted to the Prem and listed them as a result of your promotion. Giving people half a story doesn't help anyone unless you are now just twisting your story to suit.

YOu are trying to tell me that all 6 players in this situation are happy to remain and won't drop down a division to play regular football .... it is so, so apparant they are not going to part of any squad

Some players are happy to pick up their wages dependant on their personality and other factors (IRL family, schools, children & jobs all affect the decision). I suspect this is the area that SI will tweak a little though so players are more likely to seek a move.

If you believe that none of these players in real life COULD BE SOLD FOR FREE... or COULD BE LOANED OUT AT NO SINGLE COST... and not one would be interested, or not one club would make an offer, then SI and the game have some major, fundemental flaws in making a FOOTBALL MANAGER game

Again its not about the value, its about the players not wanting to move. Lower divisions clubs won't make an offer because they know they have zero chance of signing the player.

The fundemental flaw is not with SI but with you and your way of thinking!

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Did you actually read the post you replied too ? Or just jump straight to the defence of Alex, totally blind ?

That entire post you quoted was about the PLAYERS ... as you underlined.

They have all been set NOT NEEDED a full season and a bit... have all been in the RESERVES and full season and a bit... have all been set LOAN LISTED for a full season and a bit and have all been set TRANSFER LSITED for a full season and a bit

YOu are trying to tell me that all 6 players in this situation are happy to remain and won't drop down a division to play regular football .... it is so, so apparant they are not going to part of any squad

If you believe that none of these players in real life COULD BE SOLD FOR FREE... or COULD BE LOANED OUT AT NO SINGLE COST... and not one would be interested, or not one club would make an offer, then SI and the game have some major, fundemental flaws in making a FOOTBALL MANAGER game

PS: Someone said about terminating contracts ... I would absolute love too .... if only EVERY player didn't completely refuse mutual termination ..... and my board would not allow normal termination .... yeh great idea ...... something which can only be used for youth players on 500 quid a week

This is the part that sticks out most:

They have all been set NOT NEEDED a full season and a bit... have all been in the RESERVES and full season and a bit... have all been set LOAN LISTED for a full season and a bit and have all been set TRANSFER LSITED for a full season and a bit

Why have you given them contracts that are long enough for this kind of problem to occur?

Set their asking prices to zero, transfer and loan list them, and just leave them too it. If they're still there in a season, you should probably take 2 years off your contract offers to players you aren't sure of.

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I really am confused as to why people have mis-read my intentions here ....

Where have I EVER posted that I am trying to make a profit ? ?

How can offering for ABSOLUTE ZERO ... loan or transfer, be making a profit ? ABSOLUTE ZERO MEANS I MAKE NOTHING !!!!

I am baffled by peoples delusion, who jump at statements, for the sake of mollycoddling SI.

No-one has yet to answer my entire point to this whole thread .... and I will ask again, clearly .....

Why, would players NOT WANT TO DROP TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP, when they are not playing, haven't been playing, aren't going to be playing, have been asked to have contracts terinated, are sat in the reserves (for what on my career is now 14 month), have squad status to not wanted, are transfer listed and are loan listed....

These players would have been kicking my door down for a move... not the other way round .....

SECONDLY ... THE FINANCE PART...

People are using the excuse, which is all it is, that people won't move clubs, because they don't have a budget .... If your budget is £100,000 for example.... the player MOVES TO YOUR CLUB FOR ABSOLUTE ZERO WAGE CONTRIBUTION ON LOAN ... then your budget is again £100,000 .... it would not cost any club a single penny to take these players on loan ...

These are players who have very good ratings in the championship ... so 90% of clubs would take them WHEN THEY ARE COMPLETELY FREE... NO IMPACT ON BUDGETS.....

The players would also move... they are clearly, absolute no doubt... not in any plans what so ever....

Jack Hunt - Hudds - Rotherham .... exact situation as I post about

Stuart O'Keefe Palace - Cardiff .... exact situation as I post about

Jos Hooiveld - S'oton - Millwall .... exact situation as I post about

Will Keane - Man U - SWFC .... exact situation as I post about

Danny Graham - Sunderland - Wolves .... exact situation as I post about

Darren Bent - Villa - Brighton .... exact situation as I post about

I could go on ... It happens... no longer are players happy to "sit it out" ... you get 1 or 2 exceptions to the norm .. sitting picking up a wage is not the norm.... the urge to play football overrides any other emotion ...

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I really am confused as to why people have mis-read my intentions here ....

Where have I EVER posted that I am trying to make a profit ? ?

How can offering for ABSOLUTE ZERO ... loan or transfer, be making a profit ? ABSOLUTE ZERO MEANS I MAKE NOTHING !!!!

I am baffled by peoples delusion, who jump at statements, for the sake of mollycoddling SI.

No-one has yet to answer my entire point to this whole thread .... and I will ask again, clearly .....

Why, would players NOT WANT TO DROP TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP, when they are not playing, haven't been playing, aren't going to be playing, have been asked to have contracts terinated, are sat in the reserves (for what on my career is now 14 month), have squad status to not wanted, are transfer listed and are loan listed....

These players would have been kicking my door down for a move... not the other way round .....

SECONDLY ... THE FINANCE PART...

People are using the excuse, which is all it is, that people won't move clubs, because they don't have a budget .... If your budget is £100,000 for example.... the player MOVES TO YOUR CLUB FOR ABSOLUTE ZERO WAGE CONTRIBUTION ON LOAN ... then your budget is again £100,000 .... it would not cost any club a single penny to take these players on loan ...

These are players who have very good ratings in the championship ... so 90% of clubs would take them WHEN THEY ARE COMPLETELY FREE... NO IMPACT ON BUDGETS.....

The players would also move... they are clearly, absolute no doubt... not in any plans what so ever....

Jack Hunt - Hudds - Rotherham .... exact situation as I post about

Stuart O'Keefe Palace - Cardiff .... exact situation as I post about

Jos Hooiveld - S'oton - Millwall .... exact situation as I post about

Will Keane - Man U - SWFC .... exact situation as I post about

Danny Graham - Sunderland - Wolves .... exact situation as I post about

Darren Bent - Villa - Brighton .... exact situation as I post about

I could go on ... It happens... no longer are players happy to "sit it out" ... you get 1 or 2 exceptions to the norm .. sitting picking up a wage is not the norm.... the urge to play football overrides any other emotion ...

Nobody is suggesting that you're still trying to make a profit. They're suggesting that you've signed a lot of players and tried to make profit by selling them on, but in this case have been lumped with what you deem as deadwood (has no purpose to your team, can't move on for any price).

What appears to have happened here is that you've signed players who aren't good enough for your side on bigger contracts that they really deserve, in a way that they think they deserve football with your club, and there are no clubs that have the desire, the means and the players attention to sign them now, so even offering them out for nothing isn't going to help. There are players who aren't going to want to simply be loaned out to lower division clubs, it'll be seen as an insult. There are players who'll be happy to wait out their ridiculously long overpaid contract, just to get the full amount.

Clubs don't always like taking players on loan either, even on complete frees. They might mess with the chemistry, especially if they've already thrown the toys out of the pram. The players may well just not want to go out on loan. Clubs can also only take and play a certain number of players on loan.

You say they hadn't played in a year. Would they still have that reputation. Would you have taken them for free, not match fit, toys out of the pram?

Also, Darren Bent has gone to Derby, has an impressive scoring record at Premier League level, and was in no way free. But I get the point you're trying to make. Maybe clubs should be more keen on your free loanees, but again, there may be other issues there.

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@HuddersfieldOwl

Another factor in the players not being all that keen on leaving the club is the size of your squad, with only 13 senior squad players the lads that you are trying to move on are either the best player in their position or they rightly believe that they are more than good enough to be part of your first team, Will Keane & Tom Lees are perfect examples of this.

I played your save through the transfer window & using scouting tools I was able to sign up players in all positions & now have a senior squad of 28. The only player who is still holding out on being part of you senior squad is Tom Lees, the rest now accept that they are not good enough to be at your club & have started to consider dropping to down to the Championship or even bigger league 1 sides.

Short version is that you're a victim of your squad management, by running such a small squad the players are sticking it out & if you were to be sacked most would be automatic starters for any manager who replaces you.

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Fascinating stuff, Alex. Love posts like those. It shows how deep the system really is.

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Very impressive! This thread has made me realize that squad management is mirroring real life more than I imagined.

It would be nice if the game would give more clues throughout the game.

This could be done via player interaction, agent interaction or even the assistant manager.

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Very impressive! This thread has made me realize that squad management is mirroring real life more than I imagined.

It would be nice if the game would give more clues throughout the game.

This could be done via player interaction, agent interaction or even the assistant manager.

More clues would be good, but it certainly shows the depth and how people really need to think through their squad management. Hopefully the OP will see the flaws in his squad management and learn from it.

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Post 28 is like a Utopia. How I would adore FM to provide this level of detail and feedback. The press system within the game (rumours etc flooding your inbox) would make it perfectly plausible to give to the player this information and would improve usability a hundred fold. It highlights how poor the interaction really is. Tons of ephemeral notes and news items, no actual realism. Not complaining as such, but imagine if the news items about no interest was along the lines Alex posted. Obviously without the CA/PA info or revealing transfer budgets beyond "not enough budget to make an offer".

I've seen the future, and it's bright.

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Post 28 is like a Utopia. How I would adore FM to provide this level of detail and feedback. The press system within the game (rumours etc flooding your inbox) would make it perfectly plausible to give to the player this information and would improve usability a hundred fold. It highlights how poor the interaction really is. Tons of ephemeral notes and news items, no actual realism. Not complaining as such, but imagine if the news items about no interest was along the lines Alex posted. Obviously without the CA/PA info or revealing transfer budgets beyond "not enough budget to make an offer".

I've seen the future, and it's bright.

I like this actually, and this would be a wonderful use of the news system and would get you closer to having some red top paper sports headlines in the game.

Rumours have it that "Club x" are after "Player Y" but only if the price comes down to "random value" or less according to our inside source...

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@HuddersfieldOwl

When you look at a players scout report, the pros or cons tell you if the player will be interested in joining you. The same thing goes for the AI. Even if they are interested in your player, if they know from their scout reports that he won't be interested, why would they waste their time? You have to think about it from all the parties point of view.

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If it helps, Srdjan Mijailovic won't need a work permit soon. Serbia get EC/EU status in 2020.

But apart from that, what Alex is saying makes total sense when broken down into each individual players, and I too would appreciate that in game, with a few obvious omissions.

Also, it is stated players are not happy to sit out, playing football is the overriding emotion. Simply not the case, especially with a very small squad it gives them hope. Footballers are obstinate individuals in both wages and their self-opinion. Those on high wages won't go anywhere, look at Benoit Assou-Ekotto. Most didn't know he was at Spurs still until they released him this January.

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You have to think about it from all the parties point of view.

No, he obviously doesn't ;). I love the thread title MUST READ :lol: As it turns out, it is exactly that. Alex has gone above and beyond breaking down some of the complexities of the transfer system, and everyone who moans about the transfer system should read it. And for what it's worth, I agree with needing a bit more feedback in this area, and I hope that SI will take a look at this for FM16.

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No, he obviously doesn't ;). I love the thread title MUST READ :lol: As it turns out, it is exactly that. Alex has gone above and beyond breaking down some of the complexities of the transfer system, and everyone who moans about the transfer system should read it. And for what it's worth, I agree with needing a bit more feedback in this area, and I hope that SI will take a look at this for FM16.

The thing is though, there's been a need for this 'feedback' for a long while now. We've needed it on the tactical roles, we've needed it to be better for player interaction, we've needed it to be more clear in the media interaction as well. As it is, things get expanded upon and bloated and yet again we're only finding out about this sort of stuff via a forum post when 90% of that stuff should be getting fed back to the user and it should be fed back in a concise and clear and non-contradictory manner.

If SI do tackle it, I hope it doesn't turn out to be something like the Assman feedback, which everyone says should be ignored and is still utter dross and completely useless for most the part. We shall see! >_>

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Feedback is the key here. If the developers want to avoid the abuse then why not have the game tell you why players cannot be transferred out? I don't think you'll find many FM players who would see this as being 'spoon fed' as someone bizarrely stated above! After all if this were real life I would be asking my DoF or whoever why we were receiving no offers for players, and I'd expect more than 'No club see it as a viable transfer'.

As for the issues resulting from DB size, well this should be flagged up in big letters before you start a game. It is not fair and totally unreasonable to expect users to know how DB sizes is going to influence the transfer system. i had this problem myself and had no choice but to start a new game with a different set up once I realized after a coupe of seasons that there was an issue. It's this sort of thing that is bound to annoy players and end up with them on here and far from happy.

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Feedback is the key here. If the developers want to avoid the abuse then why not have the game tell you why players cannot be transferred out? I don't think you'll find many FM players who would see this as being 'spoon fed' as someone bizarrely stated above! After all if this were real life I would be asking my DoF or whoever why we were receiving no offers for players, and I'd expect more than 'No club see it as a viable transfer'.

As for the issues resulting from DB size, well this should be flagged up in big letters before you start a game. It is not fair and totally unreasonable to expect users to know how DB sizes is going to influence the transfer system. i had this problem myself and had no choice but to start a new game with a different set up once I realized after a coupe of seasons that there was an issue. It's this sort of thing that is bound to annoy players and end up with them on here and far from happy.

There is no such thing as "If the developers want to avoid the abuse" just so we're clear. People coming on with that attitude will not last long around here. Just wanted to make that crystal clear there is no justification for it.

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There is no justification for being slapped across the face with a wet fish. However if I could easily avoid it by communicating better, then I would...

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This kind of depth in player logic is why I come back to FM year after year. IRL, there is no way a player like Tom Lees who has toiled in the Championship for his whole career is going to accept a move back down after finally winning promotion to the top flight. He's going to want to stick around and take his chance playing in the top flight, even if it's from the bench.

Agree that some additional feedback would enhance the experience... a new field containing the leagues / teams that a player would accept a move to would do the trick. Or give the manager the option to email another manager "hey, why aren't you bidding on this guy that I have listed?" (maybe even an opportunity to forge a better relationship with another coach and/or get a You Take This Troublemaker Off My Hands and I'll Take Yours Off Of Your Hands deal going?)

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There is no justification for being slapped across the face with a wet fish. However if I could easily avoid it by communicating better, then I would...

You have been given some feedback/knowledge not previously available and the SI staffer giving it went out on a limb a bit to do so, so instead of acting entitled make the most of the opportunity and come up with sensible suggestions for implementing more such feedback both in game and in manual form.

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Feedback is the key here. If the developers want to avoid the abuse then why not have the game tell you why players cannot be transferred out? I don't think you'll find many FM players who would see this as being 'spoon fed' as someone bizarrely stated above! After all if this were real life I would be asking my DoF or whoever why we were receiving no offers for players, and I'd expect more than 'No club see it as a viable transfer'.

Or anyone coming on here could, you know, be a decent human being and not abuse people who are just doing their job, no matter what they do.

As for the issues resulting from DB size, well this should be flagged up in big letters before you start a game. It is not fair and totally unreasonable to expect users to know how DB sizes is going to influence the transfer system. i had this problem myself and had no choice but to start a new game with a different set up once I realized after a coupe of seasons that there was an issue. It's this sort of thing that is bound to annoy players and end up with them on here and far from happy.

It's common sense. Less players in the database means less choice, and less clubs to actively look for players. It's not rocket science. Ironic that you complain about spoon-feeding, then suggest being spoon-fed information.

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Fascinating thread, despite the OP's determination not to listen.

This threads parallels what we often see in the tactics forum, in which the user baldly states "it's not my tactics" and then runs around with his fingers in his ears after knowledgable users clearly demonstrate it is his tactics. As FM matures, it becomes increasingly difficult to exploit its mechanisms, as the OP is discovering.

I do have some sympathy. Although I'd consider his squad management poor and never maintain a squad like that myself, the user doesn't get enough information to help him work out that he's making bad decisions. It can't be as spoon fed as Alex is making it, but some kind of communication from the manager's backroom team, player's agent or interested clubs might help the user work out where he's going wrong.

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I do have some sympathy. Although I'd consider his squad management poor and never maintain a squad like that myself, the user doesn't get enough information to help him work out that he's making bad decisions. It can't be as spoon fed as Alex is making it, but some kind of communication from the manager's backroom team, player's agent or interested clubs might help the user work out where he's going wrong.

I think that's right- the OP has a semi-legitimate complaint, and certainly can't be faulted for not necessarily understanding why he can't shift some of his players, so some feedback is needed. At the same time, applying a bit of logic and common sense goes a long way in FM and always has. Somewhere the two must meet to keep it challenging without making it head-bashingly obscure.

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Great posts from the staff in here, really gives us a greater understanding of the system. It's too bad that the TC is so stubborn about this issue, because he's received as much help from SI as anyone could ever hope for. At least the rest of us can use this information and put it to good use.

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I think that's right- the OP has a semi-legitimate complaint, and certainly can't be faulted for not necessarily understanding why he can't shift some of his players, so some feedback is needed. At the same time, applying a bit of logic and common sense goes a long way in FM and always has. Somewhere the two must meet to keep it challenging without making it head-bashingly obscure.

You know, like alex mentioned there could be more interaction.

Let's say you offer a player and there is no interest. A news item is generated which informs you:

"Player seems happy at Club.

In the light of club transfer listing player with many sources also claiming he was shoved out, player indicated to the news media that he was perfectly happy. "I'm not interested in a move", he told the journalist."

Cue a new option "Convince player :D".

It is similar to reactions when the manager decalres he is interested in signing a player in REVERSE!

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I've actually been really impressed with some of the player interactions this time around to be honest. A lot of love went into it this version. They do seem a bit too volitile much of the time, but that seems to be a balance issues to do with the RPG elements added, and something that can surely be tweaked and balanced.

My personal favourite of the lot though was when my captain (playing as Nuremberg) informed me that he wanted to go to Bayern if an offer came in. What was impressive is that the game actually gave me the chance to tell me "as they are our rival... yeah, nah mate", which he actually accepted. Quite fun actually. Now I just have to deal with Bayern wanting my entire midfield.

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um why not use the unwanted player list and offer for nothing or release?
You might want to have another read of the thread, the reason the OP started it was because those actions did not produce the resulst he wanted & I have been explaining why that is the case.

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You know, like alex mentioned there could be more interaction.

Let's say you offer a player and there is no interest. A news item is generated which informs you:

"Player seems happy at Club.

In the light of club transfer listing player with many sources also claiming he was shoved out, player indicated to the news media that he was perfectly happy. "I'm not interested in a move", he told the journalist."

Cue a new option "Convince player :D".

It is similar to reactions when the manager decalres he is interested in signing a player in REVERSE!

That level of conversation is in the game & with some tweaks it could be set to trigger more frequently.

@HuddersfieldOWl

Do you have a save point from the summer window or just before you transfer listed a few of the players that you have falied to move on. A svae at that stage ourl be very helpful in looking at what feedback or player interactions we can use to help the manager understand the AI decision making.

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What a wonderful read this thread has been (in spite of the OP). Having a detailed breakdown of what is going on and why player A does not want to leave, and why team X have not made an offer is fascinating. I have actually unintentionally learnt things from this thread that I will doubtless be translating into how I go about selling players now.

This is a great way to engage users as well, genuinely kudos all round to the staff here.

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I think that's right- the OP has a semi-legitimate complaint, and certainly can't be faulted for not necessarily understanding why he can't shift some of his players, so some feedback is needed. At the same time, applying a bit of logic and common sense goes a long way in FM and always has. Somewhere the two must meet to keep it challenging without making it head-bashingly obscure.

@Dr Hook ... Thanks for being the first person to not try patronsise me ....

@Alex...

Don't think I do not appreciate the help you have given and the detail you have gone too ... I would just love if you could see if from the gamer / the users point of view.

For a full year (career year) I have played with a small squad ... "Why, I hear you all ask" .... simple ... the stupid, ridiculous under 21's (and that per se is not a dig at SI in it's entirity as this is the way the game has gone in real life too) .... What's the point in having more than 16 players, when they cannot keep fit, as they cannot play in the under 21's as are too old (can only have 3 over age players play) ... and the assistant does not rotate the players he picks (unless you manage the 21's which is ridiculous) ... so the same players remain unfit and are not playing ... so I keep a very tight core of players ...I trust my under 18's in emergencies to step up !!

So, with this being so..... these players I am trying to remove have not played, are not part of the plans, do stay as under 21 players, do stay listed, loan and transfer... are continually offered to terminate contracts etc etc .... what more can I do to make it obvious they are not part of my plans !!!

Cannot terminate contracts due to board...

On a second point.... and this is me after genuine advice, not me being unhappy with the troubles of the transfer system......this guy with the WP issue... he has 4 star ability and potential... so why would not a single team from abroad take him on loan, or free transfer... if he had a work permit, he would be the best player in my side, IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE ...

Is this to do with my setup ? Is it to do with database size which peoeple keep bandying around as some user led excuse / issue ? Or again is it linked to the issue of selling players full stop ?

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The issue with the WP lad is that you only have England active, this means that for processing reasons there are only a limited number of clubs outside of England who are active with the majority using the virtual(grey) player system to fill their squads. The player might be rated as 4* by your coaching staff but that is not enough for him to be of any interest to the clubs who are currently active & could register him.

I'm not sure if there is anything of its type in the T&T forum but if you're interested it might be worth a looking to see if there are any discussions on how others manage a squad in England, for me it is the root cause of your frustration & it might be worth looking at how others manage their squads.

Do you have a save from the last pre-season?

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For a full year (career year) I have played with a small squad ... "Why, I hear you all ask" .... simple ... the stupid, ridiculous under 21's (and that per se is not a dig at SI in it's entirity as this is the way the game has gone in real life too) .... What's the point in having more than 16 players, when they cannot keep fit, as they cannot play in the under 21's as are too old (can only have 3 over age players play) ... and the assistant does not rotate the players he picks (unless you manage the 21's which is ridiculous) ... so the same players remain unfit and are not playing ... so I keep a very tight core of players ...I trust my under 18's in emergencies to step up !!

Why do you just not rotate your squad to keep the backup players fit? The core of my PSV is 21 players, which I do not allow to be made available for my B team at all unless they are coming back from a particularly nasty injury and need a slow introduction back to the first team. Of those 21 players, 17 are either match fit or in superb condition. Of the 4 who are not, 1 is lacking match fitness and is making his return to full fitness from injury, 2 are just recovered from injury and have started training again recently, and the final player is backup to Depay who is simply too important to my team to rotate often. With one exception, every player in my team has played at least 14 games (with as many sub appearances).

Obviously you cannot rotate everyone all the time, some players are invaluable. But it is totally possible to have a core of 20 or so players who you can keep match fit. I know that is not your issue here, but I thought I would offer you some advice on how to combat having to have a small first team!

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Sincere thanks for your time in explaining things here Alex, it's very much appreciated.

The only small point of contention that I think has been raised, by yourself and others, is this issue of "spoon feeding." While I agree with the general sentiment that users should have to figure out how elements of the game work on their own, I think it also needs to be remembered that FM is intended as a simulation, and so some areas of the game simply SHOULD NOT be ambiguous. Don't forget that in real life, as well as being able to observe the emotions and reactions of the players, the manager can speak to his players directly. Perhaps he would have had a conversation with the player in question about moving in which the player makes it clear he wants to play in the premiership. Perhaps he has been told that information from a third party who has spoken to the player, or maybe even he has overheard the lads joking around about him being destined for the championship. Regardless, it is very unlikely that the manager and player would not have spoken about this clearly.

I think it would be a decent idea to ask ourselves what it is that makes football management as difficult task as it obviously is. Many of the difficult elements of FM are comparably easy in real life, such as conveying ideas to your players, and receiving information from them. Many of the elements that I feel make real football management difficult are not currently represented well in the game, such as hierarchical issues, uncertainty about player development and ability, and the predatory nature of higher stature clubs. Not all managers have total control over their transfers, and this is not represented in the game at all. Tactics should be difficult and although they are, I can't help but feel they are difficult in terms of flow of information, where real life tactics are 100% not difficult in this way, again due to the continuous nature of conversation. The suitability of the game plan should be the challenge more so than "not being spoon fed" the correct elements of each game plan.

Of course this is just my opinion, but if the game is difficult because of a lack of clarity, especially when there would be almost total clarity in real life, then the nature of the system needs to be re-considered. Obviously you are already doing this by considering ways of improving the feedback given to users, which is great, but I also think that a more general assessment of where the difficulty should be coming from would also be beneficial.

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You might want to have another read of the thread, the reason the OP started it was because those actions did not produce the resulst he wanted & I have been explaining why that is the case.

Well tbh, the OP never mentioned offering players via the unwanted list for free or to release them (in the first 5 posts). He did just say he offered for free which could mean he dropped their sale value form say 500k to 0 in the offer to clubs transfer section.

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FM is intended as a simulation, and so some areas of the game simply SHOULD NOT be ambiguous.

Yes, the game should provide us with information we'd have available irl, preferably in a form we'd be privy to it in that case.

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As part of advice over game setup, in order to sell players abroad, i.e. players who have really high AP and CP and who are regulars and performing really well, what is best way to get other clubs apart from England looking at / buying players ?

People have said use a small database .... but surely that restricts me to players I can buy ... ?

People have said add as playable leagues, all the divisons you would like to seel too.... but surely that takes an enormity of time to process all those fixtures and have all that info clogging news feed ?

I am still perplexed at why these players (and similar) in this post cannot be moved on, but genuinely, thanks for trying to shed some light ... even if it seems a little "excusey" :D

... tried selling one of my "best" performers from my first Premier league season .. Anderson ... who should have a high reputaiton in European football .. .but was unable to sell him for free either .... that was pre season... with now a much larger squad !!

I'm just going to have to deal with being poor and not being able to manipulate my squad how I would like ... hahaha

Roll on TV money ..... :-)

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As part of advice over game setup, in order to sell players abroad, i.e. players who have really high AP and CP and who are regulars and performing really well, what is best way to get other clubs apart from England looking at / buying players ?

People have said use a small database .... but surely that restricts me to players I can buy ... ?

People have said add as playable leagues, all the divisons you would like to seel too.... but surely that takes an enormity of time to process all those fixtures and have all that info clogging news feed ?

Its your save and you need to decide what a good tradeoff is for you in terms of playability vs time taken to process.

The bottom line is the more playable leagues you load the better the transfer market works, combine this with a small database and you have a much better balance. If you want a large database & low number of leagues that fine but you need to understand the impact which is you flood the gameworld with too many players for the teams leaving lots of players with no where to go. Sure it gives you lots of cheap options when it comes to buying but so have the other clubs which means selling is much harder.

You need to choose what you want.

I am still perplexed at why these players (and similar) in this post cannot be moved on, but genuinely, thanks for trying to shed some light ... even if it seems a little "excusey" :D

... tried selling one of my "best" performers from my first Premier league season .. Anderson ... who should have a high reputaiton in European football .. .but was unable to sell him for free either .... that was pre season... with now a much larger squad !!

I really perplexed at how you cannot understand Alex's explanation tbh.

It really is simple:

A) You have a really small squad which means the players still feel they have a part to play.

B) Their reputation, attributes, CA and contract with a Premiership club means several don't want to drop back to a Championship team just yet.

C) The Premiership clubs that are interested in some of them don't feel they can afford them atm given their current budgets.

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i really perplexed at how you cannot understand alex's explanation tbh.

It really is simple:

A) you have a really small squad which means the players still feel they have a part to play.

b) their reputation, attributes, ca and contract with a premiership club means several don't want to drop back to a championship team just yet.

c) the premiership clubs that are interested in some of them don't feel they can afford them atm given their current budgets.

A) Did you read my last post or jump on the pro si campaign again for more ego points ? .... I am pre season now and have a squad of nearly 23 players

B) I am not targetting the championship, my aim was to see if i could sell anyone, now i had a larger squad

C) so, what is the point in having a transfer system at all then ... If i cannot sell (for purposes of testing theories), my best performer, my most marketable player, in order to generate some revenue to strengthen elsewhere .... Wheh can i use the transfer system ??

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so, what is the point in having a transfer system at all then ... If i cannot sell (for purposes of testing theories), my best performer, my most marketable player, in order to generate some revenue to strengthen elsewhere .... Wheh can i use the transfer system ??

Because it seems like the teams who are interested in your players, don't have the money. Your game setup also doesn't help you possibly selling players abroad.

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The best time to sell players is always the start of the transfer window when all the teams have money. Also the player should be wanted by other clubs.

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so, what is the point in having a transfer system at all then ... If i cannot sell (for purposes of testing theories), my best performer, my most marketable player, in order to generate some revenue to strengthen elsewhere .... Wheh can i use the transfer system ??
I'd like to think that you've figured out from my posts in this thread that there are numerous reasons why a player being offered to other clubs does not generate a bid. As before I'm more than happy to take a look at the save, ideally before you start trying to sell the player.

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