Struggling with the 'Counter' mentality

[Macon]

Generally, I only use this when we are the underdogs, so by definition, I'm not expecting to do as well as a more expansive approach - but even so, my current approach is definitely under-performing.

Creatively, it works fine: we score plenty. But we let in far too many goals.

TIs are: Be More Disciplined, Exploit Flanks

Player roles are:

GK: GK

DR: FBs

DCR: LDd

DCL: CDd

DL: FBs

DMC: Anchor

MCR: CMa

MCL: DLPs

AMR: Wa

AML: IFa

ST: CFs

I know you're going to say 'drop the wide men back to the midfield strata' (and yes, most of the goals conceded seem to be as a result of crosses). And I guess I will if all else fails. But for the current shape, is there anything obviously wrong with the role combinations?

[jonomagloneo]

What sort of goals are being scored, and can they be attributed to any weakness in personnel (obvious, but y'know...)?

And despite you scoring goals, a FB on an attack duty may help retain the ball more often going forward, particularly with the flanks TI.... What are your possession stats like?

[Jambo98]

Well, i wont say drop the wide men back since you seem to already know that.........but if you already know that, and you can see that most of goals are coming from wide area, its an interesting mental approach to deliberately look for other solutions when you have one right in front of you?

Other than that, again this is a bit obvious but...... Counter mentality is still making you score lots, but concede lots. So use defend mentality?

[Benoit2]

(You dont need to drop the wide man to MR/L for better cover. Putting them on support will by and large do the same thing. But also make them score less.)

Whats your closing down like? Very simply said, either you're not pushing them away from your goal aggressively enough, or your closing down is bypassed and they take advantage of the resultant incoherent shape. Figure out which and adapt. Maybe you only need to close down certain positions, use OI for that. Depends on how you concede goals.

If nothing works, then its the choice between scoring and conceding more (attack wide players) or scoring and conceding less, hopefully (support wide players).

[Macon]

jonomagloneo:

They're killing me down the wings, really. Possession stats vary a lot from game to game - if I'm only just the underdog, I can still have 57% possession, but on other occasions, it drops to sub-40%. My anchorman is rubbish on paper, because I don't use a DM in my main formation - but it doesn't look like an issue in the highlights.

Jambo98:

Haha - yes, I asked for that, really! If I used 'defend', would they still counter-attack if it was on, then?

If the game classifies players as 'Awkward' at ML/MR, then I just hate playing them there, however many times people assure me that they will still perform perfectly well.

And is there a midfield equivalent who plays like an inside forward - or would I have to do it my modifying individual player instructions?

[Macon]

Benoit2: I could definitely stand scoring a few less in favour of tightening up defensively. I always close down the opponent's most advanced wide players: other than that, my closing down is the default for 'Counter' - which is 'not much', I think. My intention is to play deep with men behind the ball, and try to force them to play through me, then break quickly if we win possession.

[Jambo98]

jonomagloneo:

They're killing me down the wings, really. Possession stats vary a lot from game to game - if I'm only just the underdog, I can still have 57% possession, but on other occasions, it drops to sub-40%. My anchorman is rubbish on paper, because I don't use a DM in my main formation - but it doesn't look like an issue in the highlights.

Jambo98:

Haha - yes, I asked for that, really! If I used 'defend', would they still counter-attack if it was on, then?

If the game classifies players as 'Awkward' at ML/MR, then I just hate playing them there, however many times people assure me that they will still perform perfectly well.

And is there a midfield equivalent who plays like an inside forward - or would I have to do it my modifying individual player instructions?

Yes, you will still counter attack with a defend mentality. It is just more cautious than counter. You can still score goals and win games easily with "Defend" as your mentality. Counter attacks will still happen with the same frequency (the logic which initiates a counter attack is same regardless of mentality). Your players will just take less risks in possession and generally be that bit more solid.

My opinions on the wide players issue are well known i think Your formation is your defensive shape, and very few football times in world football play with wide men so high up the pitch when defending. Its a fallacy created by Sky sports and how they lay out the formations when they show you the team line up. A WM(a) can function in attack just like an IF, with the right PI and due consideration to PPM. If you like look at my 451 thread for ideas on how WM can be deadly.

[jonomagloneo]

There are going to (hopefully for you) be more informed/experienced FMers contributing to this thread, but against the best teams (presuming your sub-40% stats are against these teams) it could well be that you are not able to "get out", and with the opposition FBs having little to worry about defensively, you are getting overloaded on the wings?

Also, with the anchorman you are short of a person to initiate attacking opportunities... do you have a potential DLP(d) or ball-playing defender? The DLP(s) in CM is probably able to get into the game just about enough in those matches where you are only just a dog, but may struggle against the top teams?

I like using "clear ball to flanks" against strong teams with attacking FBs, and have a creative deep outlet. And like I say, a FB with just a little more willingness to go forward will add to your passing outlets as you try and break - an attack being the best form of defence sort of approach despite your overall mentality.

I'd also agree with Jambo and perhaps try switching to defend.

[Macon]

the logic which initiates a counter attack is same regardless of mentality

Wow, really? So the 'counter' mentality is just a label SI are using to mean 'something between defensive and standard' rather than the equivalent of ticking the Counter attack box in older versions of the game?

[Macon]

Also, with the anchorman you are short of a person to initiate attacking opportunities... do you have a potential DLP(d) or ball-playing defender?

I started out using a DLPd (with CMs and CMa ahead of him) rather than an anchorman, and only changed in an attempt to stop the flow of goals against.

I do have potential ballplaying defenders, though.

[Jambo98]

Wow, really? So the 'counter' mentality is just a label SI are using to mean 'something between defensive and standard' rather than the equivalent of ticking the Counter attack box in older versions of the game?

Yes. I don't profess to understand it, and I don't agree with it, but i picked that up from a post Cleon did, and Cleon's info is usually 100% correct (also it would not exactly be the only area in game where the descriptions need work).

I will dig out the post in question, but in essence the game decides whether to counter attack based on the number of players out of position and a couple of other factors.

[Jambo98]

Here is the post in question, and i think some replies after it also clarify it a bit

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/414569-4-4-2-struggling-away-and-leaking-goals?p=10074830&viewfull=1#post10074830

[Macon]

Blimey, that changes things. That's a massively unhelpful label, then.

[Benoit2]

Wow, really? So the 'counter' mentality is just a label SI are using to mean 'something between defensive and standard' rather than the equivalent of ticking the Counter attack box in older versions of the game?

afaik, the counter-attack tick box still exists under the hood and is automatically ticked on counter and also defensive I believe. But you'd have to fire up fm13 to double check that, as thats the last version you could still see the under the hood settings.

edit:

Just fired up fm13 to double check and on defensive, counter and overload the counter attack box gets ticked. No reason to believe this is different now imo.

[burjennio]

For tough away games I've found that I need to completely nullify the oppositions main threat if it comes from the wings, specifically by switching the fullback to a either FBd or Limited FB, and putting the player in front of him on support duty. 90% of the goals I was conceding were coming from my fullback trying to get forward only for the counter attack to fizzle out, and the opposition winger able to find himself space to exploit. It works the same way for teams that load up the middle, you need to match the numbers game, whether that being the use of an anchorman, or reducing the mentality of any AMC you may be playing to get him more involved in the defensive phases. I give you an example of a mistake I just made in my last game: Away to Ajax with 20mins left I brought on Totti and went 4-4-1-1 with him in the Treq role to hopefully give him the chance to win us the game. Ajax had been playing 3-5-2 and my switching a role to Treq from the previous incumbents AMs left the third Ajax central midfielder free, and he duly ghosted into the box 10mins later to win the match. 100% tactical mistake on my part - in trying to win the match, I neglected the defensive end of out game and paid the penalty.

[Jambo98]

afaik, the counter-attack tick box still exists under the hood and is automatically ticked on counter and also defensive I believe. But you'd have to fire up fm13 to double check that, as thats the last version you could still see the under the hood settings.

edit:

Just fired up fm13 to double check and on defensive, counter and overload the counter attack box gets ticked. No reason to believe this is different now imo.

Thanks - That puts it a lot better than i managed.

Basically, there is nothing wrong with "counter" as a title as such, perhaps. But "defensive" is perhaps a bit misleading as you will still counter attack with this strategy. It would be easy to read the titles and assume that "counter" is the only one where your team will counter attack, which i suspect is what happens to a lot of people and explains why people are reluctant to use "defensive".

Long and the short of it, give defensive a try if you are struggling and being over-run

[Lilah]

I don't think the counter mentality really works as advertised. I haven't noticed it being any more defensively sound than attacking, at least in my formations. It tends to give up too much just to be behind the ball and it gets overwhelmed easily because the opponent can build up. Statistically, my teams allow more shots on goal with counter than with attacking mentality while obviously putting less pressure and not having as many chances themselves.

[Cleon]

I don't think the counter mentality really works as advertised. I haven't noticed it being any more defensively sound than attacking, at least in my formations. It tends to give up too much just to be behind the ball and it gets overwhelmed easily because the opponent can build up. Statistically, my teams allow more shots on goal with counter than with attacking mentality while obviously putting less pressure and not having as many chances themselves.

That's more down to the roles/duties you use really. Yes counter is slightly deeper but if you are experiencing all of that then its to do with roles.

[Torskus77]

Wow, really? So the 'counter' mentality is just a label SI are using to mean 'something between defensive and standard' rather than the equivalent of ticking the Counter attack box in older versions of the game?

Not exactly, the criteria for a "counter" will be different if you use different mentalities. I believe it is the same for defensive and counter, but will be different for the other mentalities.

[Macon]

So I don't use a counter-attacking approach very often - it's situational. But I've now had 2 occasions where I've dropped the mentality to 'Defensive' (all duties/roles/and TIs as per original post still): for 14 minutes to protect a one goal lead after having our striker sent off (we conceded), and for 15 minutes to close out a game where we had a narrow 1 goal lead (and we ...urm.. scored four more).