Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
cmonreds

Tiki Taka - At a waypoint. Evolution or revolution ahead?

Recommended Posts

yonko - The relationship between TIs and PIs is different this year. There is now a combined impact based on Role / Duty, TIs and PIs. It isn't a compounded, incremental impact, but it does have additional impact.

There still seems to be confusion about this. There is another thread specific to this issue and there Cleon says that the TIs and PIs stack now. So either they stack/compound or they don't, there is nothing in between.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I totally agree with the build-up from the back. I also find safer and more presice in my opinion. Though i find the pressing comes a little bit short when playing against an opponent who also builds up from the back, but it can also depend on my lacking in top quality in my squad.

Try giving your (wide) forward/midfielders close down much more PI. You can also use OI to always close down their full-backs for example. I do that, it certainly has an effect. Seen several times that the ball is passed to their full-back, my MR/L immediately starts running to him and the full-back then plays a long ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There still seems to be confusion about this. There is another thread specific to this issue and there Cleon says that the TIs and PIs stack now. So either they stack/compound or they don't, there is nothing in between.

They now work together yes but the calculations used is quite complex and needs to be explained which I believe SI hope to do at some point. However its not exactly a 1+1 = 2 type of equation so while they do stack it isn't clear cut and we can't say 'it increases by this much' because it depends on mentality, role, duty, PI's and the TI's used.

I think we all agree its pretty silly to change how something has worked for a while to how it works now and not proper explain the changes but like usual there isn't much we can do about that but I really wish there was. The only person who can probably explain it well enough is PaulC as he's the only one who knows how the under the hood stuff works for this. That's why its easier for us to say they stack now rather than try to explain something that is extremely complicated and work make everyone even more confused. Hopefully at some point though SI correct this and show us some kind of visual for it which I think they actually will do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Try giving your (wide) forward/midfielders close down much more PI. You can also use OI to always close down their full-backs for example. I do that, it certainly has an effect. Seen several times that the ball is passed to their full-back, my MR/L immediately starts running to him and the full-back then plays a long ball.

I haven't tried the OI with just the FB. I've had it on the backfour+keeper and when specifically pressing five opponents seemed to make my players forget the other remaining six. But I should definitely try with only pressing the fullbacks. Do you try to show on foot aswell? I try to show on where I have a numerical advantage which most often is in the center of the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I show them out wide to limit their passing options. Unless its an attacking full-back with good crossing, them I'll show him inside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The other part i am not sure how you can properly recreate, and i suspect a big part of the reason for the counter-attack weakness in your system, is the 4 second press. This intense press followed by dropping off/passing on, is what makes it so effective, and i have never been able to make this work in FM, since pressing is very much "all or nothing" - Do you think perhaps overpressing is where you are falling down slightly?

I agree, this is impossible to recreate I suspect. Initially the team might close down just to cut/block the opponents passing lanes, with no aim to regain the ball. This due to reading of the situation, concludes that they are not in a good position to recover possession. Then they might fall back and constitute the block lower down the pitch. We are not able to go into such detail with the tactics creator. We must choose the between the options available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi, first of all credit to for a very interesting article and a bunch of great ideas. I've tried the tactic that you've posted with my Bechem-side and succeded with 73% possession against Anderlecht (i'm newly promoted to fisrt division) and i saw a lot of beatuiful passing :) even though it was a loss with 1-2, but I believe thats just a question of quality difference.

Have you ever considered playing with a lower mentality or maybe its impossible to retain the high pressing, but maybe you can reduce the risk a little bit on the way forward to the opponents third?

Hi, good possession against Anderlecth :thup: I have considered this but never done it. I am open to any solution that reduces goals conceded and the risk of being counter-attacked. You are correct, I am afraid that it will reduce the high closing down I want to acchieve. Actually I have been wondering about increasing the mentality to attacking to get an even more intense pressure, higher up the pitch. But, I might be wrong about this..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Inspired by this article I have actually tried something similar. I play with similar tactics, in terms of the high block, pressing and low risk PIs, but I use the counter mentality instead of control. I've tried and compared both mentalities but I've stuck with counter, as the pressing isn't quite as extreme on control and also it seems to enable slow build up play from defence, which I think is crucial aspect of Guardiola's play.

Yeah, there are other threads on this forum with members that probably knows the match engine better than anyone else, forfeiting that they preferr this mentality when trying to replicate Guardiola style of play at Barcelona. Maybe I am too stubborn about this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Try giving your (wide) forward/midfielders close down much more PI. You can also use OI to always close down their full-backs for example. I do that, it certainly has an effect. Seen several times that the ball is passed to their full-back, my MR/L immediately starts running to him and the full-back then plays a long ball.

This might be the way forward, using the OI. Analyze the opponents, find out which players are most likely to cause your team problems, try to neutralize them. This can be done either with changing the PI or by using the OI. I must admit, that I need more experience by utilizing the OI`s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't tried the OI with just the FB. I've had it on the backfour+keeper and when specifically pressing five opponents seemed to make my players forget the other remaining six. But I should definitely try with only pressing the fullbacks. Do you try to show on foot aswell? I try to show on where I have a numerical advantage which most often is in the center of the pitch.

I believe we should not overuse the OI`s, this will/can might conflict or change your own tactics too much. Use it as an subtle tool to limit risks. I.e. when playing against a team sitting deep and playing direct. Use it on their 2-3 best passers. There might be a central defender, a central midfielder and a wide midfielder that has the ability to pass into the space behind your own defenders. Using the OI on these 2-3 players might be enough to limit the risks.

Also we have different OI`s to use. Try to find out which OI suits which player. I don`t believe in assigning all of them to an opponent player, there must be action with a purpose. It could be enough to just cut of the passing channels of players to limit the threats they pose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I show them out wide to limit their passing options. Unless its an attacking full-back with good crossing, them I'll show him inside.

This is good logical thinking :thup:. You will not be able to cover every space available. Limit the threat they pose by removing their ability to play to their strenghts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone would benefit from the "multi-quote" function :p

Let us know what progress you have made as well :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My early conclusions so far are, I will stick to my current style of play, as well as formation. Against 4-3-1-2 formation the solution is to use the standard tactic and to give the wingbacks attacking duties. Also one MC should be given an role/duty to sit lower on the pitch (Xavi), this is mainly done with regards to playing out of own defence. The symmetry with the roles might have to be reconsidered when doing this, due to trying to get the best balance within the team/formation.

Also the modest use of PI and OI to counter the opponents strenghts are the best way of trying to limit the risks of being counter-attacked.

If I should try to systematize the use of PI, this is what I have so far:

The use of closing down for central defenders. Against pacey forwards threatening the space behind our defensive line, close down less is appropriate for one or both of the central defenders.

Against strikers that doesn`t pose a threat with pace I stick to the normal ammount of closing down. Also different combinations come into use here against different formations. Still atleast one of the two DC`s or the DM should close down more. If not possible assign one MC to be defensive.

The striker could also be specifically told to man-mark one of the opponent DC`s, this due to this player being the best passer of their central defensive players and/or you want to force them to play the ball to one side of the pitch. This might be because they are weaker on this side (you limit the threats they pose from this side) and/or this side is your strongest.

The use of OI is to weaken the opponents further. As already mentioned by Benoit2 with regard to wingbacks/fullbacks, if they are good crossers and they have players in the box able to be on the end of these crosses. One solution to prevent this is to force their movement to where they cannot cross the ball.

This is an good example that you can use against wide attackers/midfielders as well. Inside Forwards who are weak on the other foot, could be forced out wide to limit the threat they pose.

Players who are fragile could be softened a little with a harder tackling OI used against them etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Someone would benefit from the "multi-quote" function :p

Let us know what progress you have made as well :)

He he. Just found the multi-quote function now. Thanks for the tips. That is the biggest progress I have been making :)

I will play some matches later, trying to make use of the OI and PI. Will go into detail then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heavily closing down a good passer is only usefull if he doesnt have good composure. Otherwise he's much less likely to crack under pressure and only exploit the space you give him by closing him down. In that case, you must either prevent him getting the ball (tight marking) or make sure he doesnt have good passing options.

Its easier to get the ball from the guy with poorer composure. Especially if he doesnt have good vision/passing, because he'll be much less likely of exploiting the space you create by closing him down. Instead he'll probably hit a mishit or long ball.

If the good passer with good composure already has the ball, you're too late. Closing him down heavily is just sticking the knife in your own chest, waiting for him to give it a twist :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have finally come to the point where I can draw som conclusions about how to increase the defensive strenghts for this style of play. I have been changing and tweaking with OI, PI and different roles and duties. At times we limited the opponents totally in threatening our defence. Other times all the tweaking just made things worse. I have not been able to systematize on how to react to different opponents. As I haven`t been able to find consistency with it.

Instead, the PI closing down instructions of the two central defenders have been removed. They were originally on close down more and I used close down less when tweaking against opponents. I settle for in between with removing this PI. It works so much better. I stick to the original tactic with this little change in PI. The only regular change I make to the tactics is to change the half back to defensive midfielder with defend duty against opponents playing with an attacking midfielder. Thats is it. No more tweaking then that.

The team cohesion is currently: forged an extremely strong understanding. The second highest level. They will still develop and increase their team cohesion. It has been at this level almost the entire season.

The picture below is the fixture list. After the first CL match against Benfice marked with a blue line, I started to use the tactic as described above.

http://i.imgur.com/2VpeiS2.jpg[/img]"]2VpeiS2.jpg

Southampton match:

http://i.imgur.com/KeRn5ta.jpg[/img]"]KeRn5ta.jpg

Leicester match (mostly youngsters playing):

http://i.imgur.com/tpOWMXV.jpg[/img]"]tpOWMXV.jpg

League cup final against Chelsea:

http://i.imgur.com/CjOwXbm.jpg[/img]"]CjOwXbm.jpg

West Ham match (also youngsters):

http://i.imgur.com/dlX8585.jpg[/img]"]dlX8585.jpg

2nd leg in the CL against Benfica:

http://i.imgur.com/eXktxRQ.jpg[/img]"]eXktxRQ.jpg

Manchester United:

http://i.imgur.com/32PhPbX.jpg[/img]"]32PhPbX.jpg

The team has kept its attacking ability and overall increased the defensive ability. Possession is suspect is around 1-2 percent lower when decreasing the closing down of the two DC`s. Still the overall solidity of the tactic is better.

I still believe that it is possible to systematize/make rules of tweaks to do against certain styles and formations. I have not been able to do this. With limited time to play, I am settling for how things ended up.

If I should find something relevant to this thread whilst playing I will update it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is very interesting, and i cant quite see how it links to the DC change, is the way your long shots % has decreased massively over time going by those stats (assuming they are in chronological order?). Might just be because its a relatively small sample and anomalies in certain matches will happen, but some of the early ones look a little high on long shots, where as the most recent ones look really impressive in those terms :)

One other observation is that you do seem to have a high amount of crosses per game in some, but not all games (it fluctuates a lot, the Man U game initially caught my eye with 37 cross attempts!). Is this a deliberate element of your play? It just strikes me that in terms of "risk", crosses are much higher risk in terms of possession turn over than passes are?

That said, Pep is a big fan of crosses in his Bayern team, in particular near post crossing and his justification is that his set up means his team are very often favourites to win "second ball" when a cross is cut out (because of how his centre midfield is set up). Maybe there is something in that :)

Overall - looks like a fantastic job of analysing and tweaking and developing :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One other observation is that you do seem to have a high amount of crosses per game in some, but not all games (it fluctuates a lot, the Man U game initially caught my eye with 37 cross attempts!). Is this a deliberate element of your play? It just strikes me that in terms of "risk", crosses are much higher risk in terms of possession turn over than passes are?

That said, Pep is a big fan of crosses in his Bayern team, in particular near post crossing and his justification is that his set up means his team are very often favourites to win "second ball" when a cross is cut out (because of how his centre midfield is set up). Maybe there is something in that :)

Overall - looks like a fantastic job of analysing and tweaking and developing :thup:

The way the tactic is set up the crosses should be like through balls from the flanks. The flanks are also essential ways to get into good assist and scoring positions. This is something I welcome. The main reason why both MC`s are set to support duty, is to maintain the balance and win the 2nd balls from crosses.

The bit I am interested in is the use of two Wide Target Men, and I guess that'll be revealed shortly. On paper, my assumption is that they will hugely influence the passing targeting of your team, so I'm wondering if their job is to receive a longish pass then hold up play for the advancing team?

You anticipated this before I even got aware of the Target Man effect of the roles I choosed would lead to this. I have just finished 2nd season now. Have seen a lot more matches and made som new experiences. I haven`t played the game this year untill the christmas period. Originally I picked the roles based on limiting risk and how they suited me with regards to which PI`s I could issue. The positive side effect of the TM role is that they will maybe see the ball more than with other roles. A lot of short passing with the TM as a part of a passing triangle out wide and also in the center.

There are also the occasional longer pass to the TM, this often is a pass in the space behind their defensive line (due to PI and PPM`s) or a relief pass from team-mates when we are pressured. The TM with their PI and PPM`s act like Ramdeuters in many aspects of their play. Still they contribute more in build up and combination play. This wasn`t intenionally from my side from the beginning, still now it work nicely.

Since I started to use the tactic as described in the last update things has beeing going really well. Below is the start of season three. The match stats from each match is even more impressing than the results.

http://i.imgur.com/XKUqtth.jpg[/img]"]XKUqtth.jpg

The team is now at the highest level of Team Cohesion, this also greatly improves the play. Always important but even more so for this style of play. The offside-trap is now working much better as well.

It is just Oblak as GK and Ødegaard that are the players bought with this save game. No more players will be bought before season three summer window closes either.

Lessons learned. Stick to your tactics for two seasons. Mould your players into it with PPM`s and improve team cohesion, then you can properly judge how the tactic is working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why u chosed for low crosses instead of the whipped ones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why u chosed for low crosses instead of the whipped ones?

I settle for lowed crosses since I believed that they would be hit in a more controlled manner. Whipped crosses have never been tried with my tactics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The way the tactic is set up the crosses should be like through balls from the flanks. The flanks are also essential ways to get into good assist and scoring positions. This is something I welcome. The main reason why both MC`s are set to support duty, is to maintain the balance and win the 2nd balls from crosses.

That does make sense, but are the cross completion rates not very low in some of the examples? 1/14, 4/21, 5/23 are some of the example figures. Now, it could very well be that these stats including corners, and you have a lot of corners? Cant tell from the stats.

BTW - this not a critiscm, you have thought the tactic out brilliantly and clearly got it working like a charm over a sustained period, more just an observation as to whether it is something you would want to look at :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, corners affects the crossing statistics as well as a free kick count as an long shot in the statistics. This might lead to misleading statistics. Atleast 30-35 % of the crosses are corners, sometimes more. Here is an picture with an overview of the assists of the last 50 games. What the game defines as crosses average well under 10 % of the assists. Still a lot of assists comes from the sides. The flanks constitutes a certain percentage of the pitch, the assists percentage should reflect this. This is very important so the team is not too one-dimensional. For me Sturrigde plays at the rigth flank, he is banging them in, instead of setting up others. The tactic is symmetrical, so the difference between the flanks in regards to amount of assists are purely player dependant.

I am a little unsure about how the game defines low crosses in the statistics, are they counted for as a pass or cross? Also a certain amount of the crosses comes from central midfielders. They are told not too do this. This is a consequence of playing with very fluid philosophy.

http://i.imgur.com/p3m82lQ.jpg[/img]"]p3m82lQ.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stumbled across this thread last night and, if I'm honest, cmonreds, its amazing. The detail and effort you have put into your analysis and reasoning is top drawer stuff. I have often tried, and failed, to create this kind of formation. Needless to say, this thread is now bookmarked and I will be following it with great interest. The fact that you are using Liverpool and relying mainly on youngsters is a welcome bonus for me. Well done and keep it up. :applause:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I stumbled across this thread last night and, if I'm honest, cmonreds, its amazing. The detail and effort you have put into your analysis and reasoning is top drawer stuff. I have often tried, and failed, to create this kind of formation. Needless to say, this thread is now bookmarked and I will be following it with great interest. The fact that you are using Liverpool and relying mainly on youngsters is a welcome bonus for me. Well done and keep it up. :applause:

I am glad if it can help you :thup:

I am halfway into the third season. The opponents now mostly line up in a 4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1 formation against Liverpool. This lead to insane position stats. I am starting to se the 70 % for possession more often. Half-time I had 75% possession for two matches.

Earlier in the thread I covered how to fare against these formations. These principles are still valid for countering this. Even if I haven`t been using this approach this season. All mathces now I dominate possession and CCC and shot to goal ratio.

Still playing with youngsters sometimes I drew or loose against real good opponents. Hazard and Schurrle punished us a few matches ago. Hazard assisting Schurrle who ran into the space behind our defenders. We lost 1-3. In the match stats we totally dominated the match. This is my first real save game for FM15, so lessons are still learned.

I am using a tactic with instructions that should be able to battle most opponents. Still against top drawer teams and players, use the OI or PI to try to counter their risks. In the example with the Chelsea match, Hazard should have been given attention (no PI/OI were used against him). There are different approaches on how the Hazard/Schurrle threats could have been tried to nullified. Hazard as the provider could have been tried to marked out of the game. Also the DC`s could have been given lowered CD to try to enforce them into falling back more. This way trying to cope with Schurrle`s run into space behind us.

As Chelsea lined up in a 4-2-1-2-1 formation I could have changed the role of the DM to Defensive Midfielder with support duty (increased CD also) to be able to close down earlier on/more players in the midfield area. Also instructing our Striker man marking their left DC to try to force their play down the opposite flank that Hazard played on, could be beneficial.

I am very happy with how the tactic are working, still in some matches a little tweaking could be beneficial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing that has impressed me is how few players you have signed. A lot of tactics i have seen tend to work best with a certain type of player which may need to be signed. Have you retrained any players to play in other positions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another thing that has impressed me is how few players you have signed. A lot of tactics i have seen tend to work best with a certain type of player which may need to be signed. Have you retrained any players to play in other positions?

Yes I have retrained some players to new positions. The key player to retrain when you start with Liverpool is Coutinho. I have retrained him to the SC position. Also PPM come deep to get the ball is added. Along with PPM`s try killer balls often, plays one-two`s and place shots he is now perfect for the role. I am currently training Sinclair to try to mirror how Coutinho play. All fullbacks are also trained to the wingback position.

Suso is now a cracking central midfielder :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mention playing a half back to create a three man back line. I can remember an article in CCC which mentions an half back. The half backs drops between the two defenders causing them to play wider and that will push the backs further up the pitch. Do you use a half back to push the wing backs further up the pitch for more pressing or did you choose the half back for more possession?

And another question do you think high stamina/work rate is needed for such a extreme press? I can see that in most matches your team doesn't run much more then the opponent which causes me to think that they should be less tired(which is good for stamina especially in BPL) and don't need high work rate because they don't have to constantly run up and down the pitch to close down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You mention playing a half back to create a three man back line. I can remember an article in CCC which mentions an half back. The half backs drops between the two defenders causing them to play wider and that will push the backs further up the pitch. Do you use a half back to push the wing backs further up the pitch for more pressing or did you choose the half back for more possession?

And another question do you think high stamina/work rate is needed for such a extreme press? I can see that in most matches your team doesn't run much more then the opponent which causes me to think that they should be less tired(which is good for stamina especially in BPL) and don't need high work rate because they don't have to constantly run up and down the pitch to close down.

The theory from real life is that the half-back drops between the central defenders to form a numerical advantage against teams playing with 2 forwards (i.e.4-4-2). This advantage is essential in playing out of their own defence, as well as when defending. Your team always has a spare player as a safety. The wingbacks pushing up is a consequence of the half back.

I use the half-back mainly because of possession, both with and without the ball. When choosing to play with the half back I want the wingbacks to push up and help the midfield with closing down. One midfielder is added to the defence line, whilst two defenders are added to the midfield line, this increases the ability to close down higher up the pitch. The whole formation is also more dynamic this way, changing shape when attacking. All this relates to eachother and for me it is part of the overall thought behind the system. The three diamonds formed when the team shifts shape into a 3-4-3 is superiour when it comes to distributing the ball and to keep it it the team.

When playing with a half back against one forward in FM(against real life theory), my impression is that there is an increased demand to the ability of the half back. He should now possess good centre back attributes and preferably also pace. This due to him often being closest to the opponent forward.

High work rate I believe is essential and also stamina is important. This to be able to sustain the high closing down. If not able to do this, you will be punished for it. Also both attributes are needed for players to constantly move into positions during the passing play.

One example from real life is how Arsenal weakened when their squad of players lost some of their ability to do this after the 03-04 campaign. Players that combines technical ability and good physique with mental ability is always to preferr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found that high tempo and close down much more = a team of knackered players who are in need of a substitution or two by about 60 minutes :)

As High Tempo is very important would you reduce the closing down one or even two notches?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How does your setup look after all these changes you've been doing?

Like in the beginning of the post. I settled for the starting variant of the tactic. Still use some of the tweaks mentioned here against some opponents, to limit the risks. If you are a good team you don`t need to do this as often. Only against strong opponents where you want to hinder their key players offensively.

The poorer your side, the more often you will have to tweak with this tactic. Atleast this is my impression. I am still looking for ways to do this better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I found that high tempo and close down much more = a team of knackered players who are in need of a substitution or two by about 60 minutes :)

As High Tempo is very important would you reduce the closing down one or even two notches?

Yeah, this can be the drawback, if players are knackered bring on subtistutes. If your squad has fitness issues regarding this. I would opt for an extra tactic with and medium- or low block. This means sitting deeper and not pressing so high. The right attributes are important here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you have any particular set piece instructions or are they left as default? Set pieces tend to drive me mad.

Yeah, I will post them later today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, this can be the drawback, if players are knackered bring on subtistutes. If your squad has fitness issues regarding this. I would opt for an extra tactic with and medium- or low block. This means sitting deeper and not pressing so high. The right attributes are important here.

Yep fair point :)

Great thread btw - one of the best I've ever read on the forum

I guess the principles should be the same for most "big" teams for this type of formation within reason.

Have a Barcelona save on the go and am getting out played but still winning so know I need to make some changes.

The front 3 of Suarez, Neymar and Messi should fit your front 3 roles I would have thought.

Will try some of these tonight - in terms of the Halfback role I may regret selling Mascherano :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks. Use the principles, change formations and roles freely, as long as they enhance this style of play. These three forwards are optimal for this style of play :) I don`t have the attritbutes for Mascherano up now, but he would suit the role just fine, especially when playing against one striker. His mobility and attributes would be a strong candidate on the team sheet. Buy him back :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or maybe I can start again - your fault for not bringing this thread to my attention sooner mate !!!!!!

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A certain Mr Busquets has a bit of a track record in the Half back role..........infact he almost invented the modern incarnation of it! Barca nearly always played him as the HB, which is partly why Mascherano became a centre half :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A certain Mr Busquets has a bit of a track record in the Half back role..........infact he almost invented the modern incarnation of it! Barca nearly always played him as the HB, which is partly why Mascherano became a centre half :)

So the challenge could well be how to keep them both happy ......

my only concern with the Barca CMs is stamina and natural fitness - Xavi & Iniesta aren't amazing for either attribute so I think I could play one

Checked Allen & Henderson stats are they are both 15+ for both attributes - Henderson 19s I think!

So my next question is whether stamina and natural fitness is more important than technical ability :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So the challenge could well be how to keep them both happy ......

Would this tactic work as well with a Trequartista ?

Or can you amend the PIs accordingly to run the DLF role like a Treq in the same way you have with the WTM ones?

I have never used a trequartista. Your striker as well as the rest of your team, is all about teamwork/teamplay. Both when in possession and without. My impression is that the Trequartista might not be up to this. Try for yourself, tweak his PI (if possible) and see how it works for you. I settled for the DLF and decided to combine this with the PPM come deep to get the ball. Originally I used a False 9, this role is positioned a little lower by default compared to the DLF. The dribbling of the F9 is something I was reluctant to. Still this would be my second choice of role in this position. Then it would be a must with a player with adequate dribbling skills as an consequence.

Set pieces instructions:

http://i.imgur.com/POhY96G.jpg[/img]"]POhY96G.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3WxS3GI.jpg[/img]"]3WxS3GI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rP5S656.jpg[/img]"]rP5S656.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Y8X4Ti0.jpg[/img]"]Y8X4Ti0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EDuWPUj.jpg[/img]"]EDuWPUj.jpg

Throw ins on the right side are done the same way as on the left side, just assign instructions to the appropriate players.

All is set to mixed except throw ins, they are set to short.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting that you have everyone back when defending a corner or free kick. I tried setting up my free kicks with the striker staying forward and my quickest winger on the edge of the box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So the challenge could well be how to keep them both happy ......

my only concern with the Barca CMs is stamina and natural fitness - Xavi & Iniesta aren't amazing for either attribute so I think I could play one

Checked Allen & Henderson stats are they are both 15+ for both attributes - Henderson 19s I think!

So my next question is whether stamina and natural fitness is more important than technical ability :)

Technical ability is always first priority. All players on the field must have adequate technical ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers - hoped you'd say that as I've just bought Sarabia & Canales :)

Did you end up changing one or both of your CBs to "close down less" - it was mentioned by another poster halfway through I think .... To be used against quicker strikers - Cisse I think was the example

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cheers - hoped you'd say that as I've just bought Sarabia & Canales :)

Did you end up changing one or both of your CBs to "close down less" - it was mentioned by another poster halfway through I think .... To be used against quicker strikers - Cisse I think was the example

I settled on removing close down more for both central defenders on the standard tactic. Against a quick striker I could instruct close down less for both DC`s when playing against 4-5-1 etc. Against 4-4-2 I could instruct close down less to the DC playing on the side of the quick striker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I settled on removing close down more for both central defenders on the standard tactic. Against a quick striker I could instruct close down less for both DC`s when playing against 4-5-1 etc. Against 4-4-2 I could instruct close down less to the DC playing on the side of the quick striker.

So as you initially thought then - thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does it mean that the players would be willing to die for each other in teamwork? Do they work harder as a team? Do they play better? Boost in morale?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What does it mean that the players would be willing to die for each other in teamwork? Do they work harder as a team? Do they play better? Boost in morale?

Speculation from my side. Based on real life I would think it means that they know how all the team-mates are going to act on the pitch. Their runs, passes, positioning etc, weaknesses and strenghts. As of this they will perform better. Also they have got to know eachother and would therefore put in a little extra effort for their teammates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I decided to give this a go with Barcelona after an aborted attempt with their B team (I vastly overestimated how much control you would get) just to see what this tactic could do with exactly the right players (other than a few too many 'runs with ball often' PPMs).

The only change I made to the original tactic was to stop closing down with CB's as suggested and to play Messi as a F9. I figured as he had the 'runs with balls' PPM I might as well take advantage. Everyone else played on DLF. When playing a 4-2-3-1 I would change the half-back to a defensive mid as shown against Chelsea.

Also when playing a 4-1-4-1 I would change the WB's to attack, half-back to defensive mid and change the wide target men to inside forwards as shown against Arsenal. I also changed Messi back to a DLF as the IF's did enough dribbling.

Anyway, you can say it went all right I guess...

A few observations:-

-Penalties. I was awarded 16 penalties in the space of a half season and I assume it has to do with the high press. I'm awful at analysing games but it's all I can think of as surely the refs can't be that biased.

-Sweeper Keepers. I think SI needs to do something about them. Maybe it's just that we haven't figured out the right role or Ter Stegen's attributes arn't good enough but I can't get him to sit anywhere near high enough up the pitch and the ball retention is poor. Maybe I should look at setting him to specifically pass to the half-back?

-Wide Target Men. I am finding they get a lot of long balls which is a big part of the reason we lose possession. I don't know the answer either as when I play IF's they lose the ball from dribbling too much but they are even more out of position than with WTM.

-Retain possession. Should this shout be removed because as I learned from another thread it reduces tempo? Maybe it's necessary to keep the passing short but with the PI's maybe it's not needed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I decided to give this a go with Barcelona after an aborted attempt with their B team (I vastly overestimated how much control you would get) just to see what this tactic could do with exactly the right players (other than a few too many 'runs with ball often' PPMs).

The only change I made to the original tactic was to stop closing down with CB's as suggested and to play Messi as a F9. I figured as he had the 'runs with balls' PPM I might as well take advantage. Everyone else played on DLF. When playing a 4-2-3-1 I would change the half-back to a defensive mid as shown against Chelsea.

Also when playing a 4-1-4-1 I would change the WB's to attack, half-back to defensive mid and change the wide target men to inside forwards as shown against Arsenal. I also changed Messi back to a DLF as the IF's did enough dribbling.

Anyway, you can say it went all right I guess...

A few observations:-

-Penalties. I was awarded 16 penalties in the space of a half season and I assume it has to do with the high press. I'm awful at analysing games but it's all I can think of as surely the refs can't be that biased.

-Sweeper Keepers. I think SI needs to do something about them. Maybe it's just that we haven't figured out the right role or Ter Stegen's attributes arn't good enough but I can't get him to sit anywhere near high enough up the pitch and the ball retention is poor. Maybe I should look at setting him to specifically pass to the half-back?

-Wide Target Men. I am finding they get a lot of long balls which is a big part of the reason we lose possession. I don't know the answer either as when I play IF's they lose the ball from dribbling too much but they are even more out of position than with WTM.

-Retain possession. Should this shout be removed because as I learned from another thread it reduces tempo? Maybe it's necessary to keep the passing short but with the PI's maybe it's not needed?

Impressive results :thup: All the changes are in accordance with the "book". Messi playing as a F9 is a good solution. You can afford to play him that way. When changing him back to DLF when playing with IF is also sensible decisions, you can then lower the amount of players dribbling and with that the overall risk you are taking.

The amount of penalties is because you spend a lot of time in the opposition box, as well as the dribbling, it will lead to penalties. Sterling is often getting fouled in the box on my Liverpool save as well (PPM run with ball often),

Ter Stegen should be able to do the job. Try to monitor the games where his and the defence distribution is poorer. What formation are the opponent fielding, as well as what are their managers preferences. It might be possible to find a way out of it. To make him pass to the half-back might be a good suggestion. Always try to play out of defence centrally when possible. Especially in the first passes.

Try Ramdeuter, adjust their PI as for the WTM, try it and see how it fares.

Retain possession is something I always play with, try it out if you have the time. Might be more hurried passes forward when removing this, especially since playing with WTM, Ramdeuters etc.

Good job :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×