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Nik_Dut

Will future FM take form into much more consideration than existing CA/PA based?

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IMO, "Match Form" should take into high consideration for a player selection (club, int'l, awards and transfer interest) in addition to FM's CA/PA based.

IRL, we already saw the likes of Cristiano Lucarelli, Fillippo Inzaghi, Diego Forlan, Teddy Sheringham, they kept fighting on form till the form itself fades. However, in FM world, often we see these older players with on-fire forms was quickly left behind whenever new season approached, or some higher rep player becoming available (recovering from injury, new signing, etc) no matter how hot the lower rep player on fire.

What do you guys think?

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I agree. I think the older players in the game change too drastically. Injuries seem to affect older players more than they should in my opinion. I noticed certain attributes seem to drop drastically too, usually the physical side.

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The drop in attributes maybe is justified. But how one player perform is depend on so many factor, he could be on fire for some run. I just can't see such form can take over higher CA/PA player in FM world.

IRL of course, this kind of show happened all the time. Every good manager will maintain in-form player and benched the higher profile player back from suspension/injury.

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This is possibly one of the advantages of the human player if your player is on form you can continue to play the"lesser" player while the AI will play their highest ability player available

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The drop in attributes maybe is justified. But how one player perform is depend on so many factor, he could be on fire for some run. I just can't see such form can take over higher CA/PA player in FM world.

IRL of course, this kind of show happened all the time. Every good manager will maintain in-form player and benched the higher profile player back from suspension/injury.

Not always. I had Di Maria at the age of 31 and he was still in the form of his life, he's pretty much still was a key player. Then pre-season comes and he becomes so slow and lethargic even though he had a great season. Surely a player can't become so slow in the space of a couple months?

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The drop in attributes seems disconnected from performances. In my dad's FM 14 save, he had a Derby side in the premier league around 2020 who finished lower half/mid table, with Alejandro Pozuelo as a striker. The guy has good potential but never reached it, and was an average player throughout his career. Yet somehow, at the age of 31, he started banging in 20 goals a season despite having terrible attributes. He's 33 right now, and has had 3 straight 20+ goal seasons, which he had never done before, despite being quite poor attribute wise.

I've had similar things occur with James McClean and Stephane Sessegnon in previous FM iterations. Average throughout their careers, but somehow put in their best performances over 30 despite declining attribute wise

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My complain is like this: Says that Portuguese Ronaldo is performing badly, and then he got minor injury, or suspension from cards. Then for the next 3 or so matches, the coach has to play and old Derpity Derp. But alas, this Derpity Derp scored hattrick and assists in those matches. 9 goals and 5 assists in 3 matches!!! Holy molly. Then come international friendlies. Guess what? Derp is not called. But it's ok. the next league game, he scored and assisted again. Bravo. Then the portuguese recovered and free of suspension. Guess what again? Derpity Derp lost his spot just like that. Welcome to FM wolrd.

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I really think form should play into it in terms of team selection, selection for national squads (although you frequently see managers being very conservative at that level, probably because it is better to lose with the high reputation team, rather than a team with lesser known players, even if they are in amazing form). But most of all it should impact transfers. IRL you see these transfers every year. Player X scored a bunch of goals (or in some cases, just one special goal for the national side) and voila, they are bought by a much bigger club. It is completely unrealistic that a player can score 20+ goals for 2 or more consecutive seasons in a top league, and not earn a big move. If he loves his club and wants to stay (Natale, Totti and similar), fine. But the interest will be there, bids will come in, and they might flop at the bigger club.

I was managing the Italian side in the qualifier for the Euros, and one of my strikers burst into the scene with 10 goals in his first 6 matches. Not a single big club thought that was interesting. He had also scored 20+ goals for 3 consecutive seasons, 16 in the last season for Parma in the Serie A and was 23 years old. So I bought him to my club team just out of spite.

In FM, all the teams watched him, the scouts probably concluded that he has a low ca/pa (how on earth they could tell with consistent amazing performances baffles me even more), and so they passed. Players who have not produced anything of note for many a season, but high ca/pa, and there is a line around the block. Go figure.

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Will only ever change if CA & PA is replaced by a more dynamic approach, i.e. a young player who is professional, determined, with good stating point technically and physically who gets good coaching and mentoring plus the right level of game time, can go on to be a world class player, so those factors determine it not a pre-determined PA.

Really I'd just like to see PA go and CA be limited by other factors, at the moment you could have what looks like the perfect youth player, attitude, technique etc, plus really good coaching but he'll never exceed 125 CA as it's set in stone!

In this world form would be very important!

Sadly very difficult to implement I imagine!

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Not everyone has the potential to be world class - with all the coaching and mentoring in the world they just will never get to a level of world class.

That's just normal - it's perfectly fine and there are only about 50 world class players in the real world.

What happens in the world of FM is that you can sign a player with a CA of 120 and a PA of 180 and they will never ever reach 180 or even 160 or even 140.

Some do and some don't. It's all down to exactly what was mentioned in this thread - if they get the right amount of coaching, mentoring, game time etc.

There's nothing wrong with the CA and PA system - it's just don't some people don't understand how it works completely.

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Not everyone has the potential to be world class - with all the coaching and mentoring in the world they just will never get to a level of world class.

That's just normal - it's perfectly fine and there are only about 50 world class players in the real world.

What happens in the world of FM is that you can sign a player with a CA of 120 and a PA of 180 and they will never ever reach 180 or even 160 or even 140.

Some do and some don't. It's all down to exactly what was mentioned in this thread - if they get the right amount of coaching, mentoring, game time etc.

There's nothing wrong with the CA and PA system - it's just don't some people don't understand how it works completely.

You're quite right on people not reaching PA but what about the reverse, those with all the right conditions and attributes but limited PA, say I have a player with 20 determination, professionalism etc plus good technical and physical attributes but only CA of 135, he will just halt at that level but you get players who go from 74 to 190 and have growth in pace for example from 10 to 18 which makes no sense!

The system works but could be a lot better, plus it would improve the scouting and make youth development a lot more interesting!

Everything can be improved!

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I had a player who had a PA of 140 and won world defender of the year.

They don't need to have a very high PA to reach world player of the year.

In a different team, different setting, different players, different roles etc. that player would never ever have reached that level.

It's not all about CA and PA.

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I might add that if I had known the player was PA 140 I may have opted to play a different player. It just so happened I was finished with that save and I was checking out the team that I had built - I was quite surprised at his PA considering the level he played at, 8's and 9's every game.

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i agree CA/PA are fine in regard what Eugene said above. however, what this system lacks is the dynamism. I believe CA should fluctuate more based on form. This would give a chance for an average player (Nikica Jelavic, Emile Heskey, Stan Collymore...anyone?) to be seen as much better than he really is. It would open room for mistakes by human and AI player.

As it is, higher rep AI club won't bother buying lower rep player who excells in lower rep club if it doesn't also have high PA. this way, average players in prolonged good form won't get anywhere and it is (somewhat) damaging the transfer market and realism.

That's the problem with PA, if it wasn't there and scouts didn't have the ability to predict the future as they do now they could only go on the basis of what a player looks like now, CA and attributes vs position, and the hidden attributes around personality.

So a 16 year old Ronaldo would get a report saying about his ability, top championship player say (for example), very good technically and physically plus he has a fantastic attitude and mindset! Well you'd sign him up straight away!

Rather then he is 5* potential and will be world class, end of.

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I might add that if I had known the player was PA 140 I may have opted to play a different player. It just so happened I was finished with that save and I was checking out the team that I had built - I was quite surprised at his PA considering the level he played at, 8's and 9's every game.

They are always good players but are the exception after all, I would imagine 9 out 10 players in your side were 160+ PA players?

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I think every single club in the world was after Ronalod, Messi and others from a very young age. There are certain players in the world that every single club in the world.

Every club in the world wanted to make a bid for Sergio Aguero when he was 17 but didn't because of uncertainties to how he'd develop and waited and waited until finally Man City put a bid in for him - and I reckon every club that was looking at him regrets not taking the chance.

There are just so many players that have the potential to be world class and never make it due to unforeseen circumstances.

Just because they have a high PA never means they will be world class. It takes a lot of work in all the right places to get them to the top.

And there are just certain players, more so than not, that can never be world class - they just will never be good enough.

Being a world class football they are born with that talent. Just like a musician is born with a talent, and a painter and a sculptor, given the right direction and help they will get there.

But there is no way Picasso would be a world class musician, or Elton John would be a world class sculptor.

There's so many things wrong with that analogy, but there is an air of truth to it.

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They are always good players but are the exception after all, I would imagine 9 out 10 players in your side were 160+ PA players?

From what I remember most of the team were around 160-180 and I was winning everything.

The player that played the best had a PA of 140 - which was mental but whatever it was worked for my team and he worked well in that role.

I think my guiding decisions always rest on Teamwork, Work Rate, Determination etc. all those things that make a player want to work for a team. Once they have those and their other stats are central to their role then I buy them.

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Humm I suppose I just want it to be more uncertain in the game, I just did the same as you and had a look at my squad, with in game editor, after winning everything I could with Spurs and I had around 6/7 of the top 10 PA players in the world as I had invested in scouting and all the players I got rid of at a younger age were 130-140 players at best, there were no real surprises, I also don't find you need to work that hard on high PA players to make them superstars.

Just be nice to have an Ian Wright type player every now and again!

It is good they are working on it though as the black stars are a good start, although they only ever seem to go away rather then turn gold....

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If you invest in good scouts then you can't be surprised by what they find.

What it should be is more than likely they don't want to leave their current clubs at a young age.

For example, there is no way a 16 year old English player would leave Man Utd youth setup to go play for Ovideo in Spain.

I find more often that youth players will leave their home country with a good club to play for a smaller club on another continent.

It's bizarro.

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If you invest in good scouts then you can't be surprised by what they find.

What it should be is more than likely they don't want to leave their current clubs at a young age.

For example, there is no way a 16 year old English player would leave Man Utd youth setup to go play for Ovideo in Spain.

I find more often that youth players will leave their home country with a good club to play for a smaller club on another continent.

It's bizarro.

Yeah that seems to have been addressed by making every club demand £80m for top youngsters, I've got league 2 clubs turning down £7.5m for a 17 year old, which is a bit much, I mean ultimately they would sell, think Bale, Ramsey etc

The whole issue of moving abroad and staying at home is a bit loose, Lloris tells me he needs to go home due to his family etc (I've won everything with him there and am a top reputation club now) so I agree to sell him as I'm nice like that and where does he end up..... Real Madrid!

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Well Luke Shaw cost £30m.

Rooney cost £28m.

There are definitely kinks in the way the game sells players.

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Well Luke Shaw cost £30m.

Rooney cost £28m.

There are definitely kinks in the way the game sells players.

Yep but they were from Prem clubs not lower leagues, no issue with that but you can't get the next Rooney now, well unless the AI team has a mental breakdown, they just don't sell! And I'm not saying they always should of course, but they know what they have got (we're back to PA there!) and won't let go!

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I suppose there is a problem there.

You can unsettle players, which is what a lot of bigger clubs do.

Have you tried that? Make the bid public instead of private.

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I suppose there is a problem there.

You can unsettle players, which is what a lot of bigger clubs do.

Have you tried that? Make the bid public instead of private.

Yeah they just say no and the player is unhappy but doesn't change much really, they seem to sell when they reach 21/22 though which is odd, so managed to finally get Zivkovic out of Ajax for the paltry sum of £12.5m in 2018 when I spent years offering more, he's not hat great after all!

I'm sure it'll get tweaked in update, that's all it needs we don't want to go back to the days where you could send scouts out on 'day of regens' and if you had full knowledge of major nations get 6/7 5* players for next to nothing!

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I suppose there is a problem there.

You can unsettle players, which is what a lot of bigger clubs do.

Have you tried that? Make the bid public instead of private.

Hang on can you make it public now? Just went to try that again and can't see the option?!

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I mean to declare your interest in signing them.

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I mean to declare your interest in signing them.

Ok yeah done that, got one that turns 22 in 2 weeks so will see what happens then as he is unhappy!

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@EugeneTyson

as OP, IMO You have take this thread the wrong way. Nothing wrong with CA/PA, I agree.

The problem is AI Manager pick playing squad relying way too heavily on CA or PA and often disregarding form, while IMHO recent forms should playing a much important roles.

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Actually, in my barcelona save on FM 14, i saw something totally different from what i normally see.,

Chelsea, managed by J. Mourinho, had a striker crises of sorts.., due to injury and poor form. Now normally, Jose rotates players from my observation. He had this younger striker (Van Ginkel), he obviously had no choice but to play him and him alone in his favored striker position in 4-2CM-3-1 ... Van Ginkel stats were not as good as the fellas he was competing with for that position, he was obviously younger, but he had a squad status of ROTATION..

But unbelievably, the guy was a big HIT! and really went on a scoring run unprecedented ... he just caught fire!..

I was watching to see what Jose would do... Loan him like he wanted to?? or still be rotating when the other guys came back??

but no, he changed his status to KEY PLAYER, gave him a new contract and he's now their favored no.9 ....

SO that was really quite a sight for me.. i didn't know the AI could be that intelligent and see reason and make required changes..

so yes, it's not all about PA/CA..

PS: And yes, with the first team football, his stats did shoot up quickly like they should so yes, perhaps he did have lots of potential afterall.. but it was still quite a sight!

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Actually, in my barcelona save on FM 14, i saw something totally different from what i normally see., Chelsea, managed by J. Mourinho, had a striker crises of sorts.., due to injury and poor form. Now normally, Jose rotates players from my observation. He had this younger striker (Van Ginkel), he obviously had no choice but to play him and him alone in his favored striker position in 4-2CM-3-1 ... Van Ginkel stats were not as good as the fellas he was competing with for that position, he was obviously younger, but he had a squad status of ROTATION.. But unbelievably, the guy was a big HIT! and really went on a scoring run unprecedented ... he just caught fire!.. I was watching to see what Jose would do... Loan him like he wanted to?? or still be rotating when the other guys came back?? but no, he changed his status to KEY PLAYER, gave him a new contract and he's now their favored no.9 .... SO that was really quite a sight for me.. i didn't know the AI could be that intelligent and see reason and make required changes.. so yes, it's not all about PA/CA.. PS: And yes, with the first team football, his stats did shoot up quickly like they should so yes, perhaps he did have lots of potential afterall.. but it was still quite a sight!
Wow. That's good. Hope that others AI Manager can develop this habit. Although Van Ginkel is kind od wonderkid. I hope this kind of rotation and claiming for first spot can cover broader players, so we can see more like Peter Crouch, Teddy Sheringham or even Heskey ;D

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@EugeneTyson

as OP, IMO You have take this thread the wrong way. Nothing wrong with CA/PA, I agree.

The problem is AI Manager pick playing squad relying way too heavily on CA or PA and often disregarding form, while IMHO recent forms should playing a much important roles.

Would Neymar be dropped for poor form for a lesser player?

Should Man Utd have dropped Rooney, Van Persie, De Gea, Di Maria etc. because they weren't on form?

I agree to an extent there is an issue with how the AI picks the squad. But it's not all about CA and PA.

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Would Neymar be dropped for poor form for a lesser player?

Should Man Utd have dropped Rooney, Van Persie, De Gea, Di Maria etc. because they weren't on form?

I agree to an extent there is an issue with how the AI picks the squad. But it's not all about CA and PA.

Some of the players you mentioned maybe granted a place for some times, but not forever and definitely not all of them.

Rui Costa lost the place to young Kaka, IIRC, Kanchelskis to Beckham, Roberto Baggio to Del Piero and still so many names like Casillas, Torres, etc. They lost places to unnamed youngster due to forms.

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Rather then he is 5* potential and will be world class, end of.

That's not how it works though, not even a little. I've had players signed with 5* potential according to a 20/20 coach, and good personality, never hit near close to it. I've seen youth prospects rated at 1-2 stars, later turn out much better and end up 4*+. Or a player one of my scouts rated at 1.5* pa, but ended up world class.

That said, with the right training, a player with 130-140 pa can be fantastic. One of my fave DM's in 14 only had 142 pa, but when developed had excellent mental stats, and 20's in tackling, marking and positioning, making him pretty much an unbreakable wall in front of your defence.

My current save, I picked up a League 2 striker with yet 138 pa, he went up the leagues with me, and is holding up very well as a Premiership forward, even with room to grow still. Good finisher, decent technique, very good off the ball movement, with high work rate, pace and natural fitness. Perfect. Picked up for 300k, I have no intention of selling at any price.

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