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Neil Brock

Official Football Manager 2015 Feedback Thread 15.2.1

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Davey Boy, if you can upload that match PKM, they can have a look at it. Cheers

Hi, sorry im not going anywhere near Filezilla again last time i did i got a bad virus on my computer. I'm never touching that again. perhaps others have a similar bug and can do that for you.

Sorry

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Open an Explorer window, as though you're browsing your computer's files. Change the directory to: ftp://ftp.sigames.com/

Use this info when it asks in the popup:

Username: ftp-public

Password: public

Drag and drop the PKM from your computer to the PKM folder in the FTP folder. Boom, uploaded by FTP. I have no idea why SI recommend Filezilla.

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Possibly another bug, my chief scout just asked me if you could stop scouting the English U/18's league (im playing in the EPL). I mean come on this is where you find young british/irish stars of the future!!! and he wan't to stop scouting the U18's thats laughable. Granted none might be coming through now but that doesn't mean they won't in the future.

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Or, do what they do now, and have different teams doing both. Because there are those who might just like new features as the 47 page wishlist thread suggests, and SI will have ideas of their own and might just want to implement them.

nobody is saying new features arent welcome, but simply stating that the game is so big and has reached a level, where the core should recieve some extra attention. The Ai and the well known stuff which relates to that, has been an issue for several years. I dont know how si are set up, and frankly its none of my business really. They can run their shop however they may please, im simply voicing my opinion. I can not speak about their procedures, asi have no knowledge, i can only speak about their product. A product which have grown in size, but maintained the same issues.

Year after year, squadbuilding/transfers are a wreck, so something is not working. The procedure you are trying to defend, has - for several years - not worked properly, but as a mod. i guess you have to say so. Thats how this "game" works.

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nobody is saying new features arent welcome, but simply stating that the game is so big and has reached a level, where the core should recieve some extra attention. The Ai and the well known stuff which relates to that, has been an issue for several years. I dont know how si are set up, and frankly its none of my business really. They can run their shop however they may please, im simply voicing my opinion. I can not speak about their procedures, asi have no knowledge, i can only speak about their product. A product which have grown in size, but maintained the same issues.

Year after year, squadbuilding/transfers are a wreck, so something is not working. The procedure you are trying to defend, has - for several years - not worked properly, but as a mod. i guess you have to say so. Thats how this "game" works.

Let's get this part out the way first: To say I have to say this because I'm a moderator is both nonsense and incorrect, it's extremely tedious when people say that because their view isn't supported. Let's not waste our time with incorrect assumptions about my views :thup: As you say yourself you don't even know how the procedure works.

Secondly they always work on the AI and its always one of their top tasks and its improved over the years, however its neither an easy task nor a short one, nor are they likely to be able to keep up with a human player, who have the advantage of being human. It's a constant uphill battle.

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Possibly another bug, my chief scout just asked me if you could stop scouting the English U/18's league (im playing in the EPL). I mean come on this is where you find young british/irish stars of the future!!! and he wan't to stop scouting the U18's thats laughable. Granted none might be coming through now but that doesn't mean they won't in the future.
That's okay, the scout has his opinion on how successful he might be at finding players & has asked your permission to do something else, a request that you can either agree with or decline.

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nobody is saying new features arent welcome, but simply stating that the game is so big and has reached a level, where the core should recieve some extra attention. The Ai and the well known stuff which relates to that, has been an issue for several years. I dont know how si are set up, and frankly its none of my business really. They can run their shop however they may please, im simply voicing my opinion. I can not speak about their procedures, asi have no knowledge, i can only speak about their product. A product which have grown in size, but maintained the same issues.

Year after year, squadbuilding/transfers are a wreck, so something is not working. The procedure you are trying to defend, has - for several years - not worked properly, but as a mod. i guess you have to say so. Thats how this "game" works.

it seems that they rely more on the graphic aspect of the game than it's engine ... i'd rather scrap the 3d view for a greatly improved ai mechanics, match engine, transfer system, player interaction etc.

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it seems that they rely more on the graphic aspect of the game than it's engine ... i'd rather scrap the 3d view for a greatly improved ai mechanics, match engine, transfer system, player interaction etc.

Again, incorrect. Separate teams work on each area.

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Again, incorrect. Separate teams work on each area.

ah my bad then :)

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End of the season (no transfers, actually in terms of direct involvement no anything, as with Hertha finishing 7th and winning the Cup previously).

cqcJP1V.jpg

Similar Burnley campaign.

xd4T7Wa.jpg

Bearing in mind that this is about the most unbalanced and risky you can go over 90 minutes in full (no additional player instructions atop the exposing duty/structuring, but encouraging a high pressing game), and that two of these are the worst sides in their league by far, I don't think it's a surprise that most tend to favor hugely aggressive attacking tactics in any kind of way. Defenses tend to get overwhelmed too easily, even if they have man advantage, and apparently despite individual setbacks you can succeed in simply overloading final thirds. Hugely many runs from deep=good luck defending them. What might factor into this that even the cheapest teams can be turned into a threat in front of goal is also that technical attributes in isolation, such as first touch, passing and technique are still very under weighted in the calculations, in terms of simple ball retention ability anyhow (that is, keeping the ball over short distances). If you want to test this, go into the editor and give every single Bayern player low single digit values in each of those and simulate a season on full match details. 1) the side won't underperform and 2) will have multiple of the best passers in the league still. The latter has always been the case, at least so far. That sounds a little geeky an experiment, but part of the attraction of FM to me is that it is as much of a management game as it is a simulation of a virtual (football) world, one that doesn't care if you actually participate an iota, a sandbox with managers and footballers rather than criminals and fast cars. As such most such experiments yielded reasonable results (which is a compliment, however this wasn't one of them). What made it harder to play keep-ball with lowlier teams was the tendency of mentally weak players to feel pressure more often when closed down, or to make bad decisions, which lead to the booting of the ball. Playing in the fourth tier now, this doesn't happen as hugely often either even when watching matches in full. Again, can it be that the effect of players getting closed down has been tuned down?

One of my personal bug bears in my regular fourth tier save thus were the goals that came off perfect first touch passing sequences all the way into tightly crowded boxes, which are all very likely to happen in particular after attacking throw ins, when the attacking side has most of its players parked in and around the area and ready in attacking position to engage in such a sequence, and I generally had matches in which 3/4 of all goals came from throw-ins, does SI track statistics for that? Players being closed down at the edge of the area by multiple players, still staying perfectly calm and laying the ball off to his colleagues that by now naturally are wihtout markers, etc. That naturally goes both ways, and perception might skew the truth in behind the personal assessment, however naturally if you sit deep after going up rather than attacking further, you will concede more of such situations and become a little extra suspicious. To put it short: I still don't think that the entire match action has ever been this biased towards attacking tactics. As argued, both claiming the right of the weak as well as dominating opposition was equally viable, and for a cracking experience look no further than Ackter's Catenaccio thread. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/374841-To-Catenaccio-and-BEYOND! He was the supposedly cheating AI, the personal nemesis of every single human player who had ever focused on nothing but dominating a few (shot) statistics. And he didn't concede a bloody thing.

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With Serge Gnabry and Jack Wilshere having a falling out, my streak of started-then-failed tutoring attempts has reached 10. I don't think I'll be using this feature until a patch changes something about it.

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With Serge Gnabry and Jack Wilshere having a falling out,

I generally tend to pick a tutor who is more than three years older than the tutee. ;) It may be that in your other attempts, the players simply weren't suited either. I've got about a 50% hit rate on my save with tutoring at the moment. I do wish you weren't restricted to the players they recommend though. Unless there's another way to do it.

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I agree that it's a little silly that Wilshere can tutor Gnabry; they're quite close in age. But there's always been a bright line between tutor-age and pupil-age. I've had the same thing happen with lots of other players, so I don't think it's age-related.

In the future, I'd kinda like to see that tutoring age thing changed a little. I don't see any reason a 21 year old couldn't tutor a sixteen year old, for example. Maybe make it a five year sliding scale that ends at a maximum pupil age of 25, or something similar. Make it a little more dynamic than people on this side of the line are one thing and people on the other are another.

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Okay so the game is roughly 4 months old, and i thought it to be a good time to look how things have improved / are still broke.

This to help SI see what WE (the gamers) really want to see improved or things that we really like since previous editions.

Things that are good:

- I like the idea of finishing training courses to get your training licenses. Although it didnt work at the start it is working

now and i think it adds an extra dimension.

- The scouting system. Although a little rough to get into, once familiar with it, it's easy to use.

Overall i think the game has improved a lot compared to at least FM13 and FM14. The biggest flaw still has to be the ME though.

And in all honesty i think only 1 big issue has to be resolved, Correct me if im wrong and that is:

- PLAYER/GK MOVEMENT.

Yes FM13 and FM14 had issues with movement, but this year this is 1 of the things that DID NOT get any improvements,

I even think in this area the game went 5 steps back. GKs not being able to hold on to balls from shots. I've been a GK myself for a recreational team,

but NEVER have i moved to the right when someone with the ball came to my near post. You move out and cover the short angle and make the shot to the far post as hard as possible.

Defenders at Premiership level don't pass the ball too slow to the GK and if they do, the GK will MOVE towards the ball.

Strikers don't wait till their defender catches up to them to shoot, especially not when they are in the box. When a striker has a shot in the box he takes it.

Random events in games i've seen. Players moving away from the ball instead of moving towards the ball when attacking. Players going towards the ball, with another player closer to the ball

but the 2nd player wont touch the ball cause the first player has to come all the way back to pick the ball up.

End of game every player has at least SOME urgency to get to the other side when they are behind. Why not in this game. In this game you start passing the ball around 30 times untill the whistle blows.

That's perfectly fine when your ahead, but when your down by 1 goal you want them to give it their all and try to score.

I think that for me sums it up pretty well. I do know that this year come october/november i won't be buying the game in pre-purchase. I will be patiently waiting. Why??? Well look at it this way, we have

a game 4 months after release and still it's NOT FINISHED. Yeah the game is better then years before, but the game is also worse then years before. Why do we play it? Because i have to be honest their is no

better alternative YET. FM will always have a following, but i think in the last few years it did become thinner. Not just because the game has flaws, but mostly because SI thinks they can release a product in

October/November, that 9 out of 10 times is ready in MARCH the next year. Maybe SI should just be smart and maybe SKIP a year to figure out what the big issue in the ME is. Cause like they say it is a rough

area of the game to play around with. TAKE YOUR TIME to figure out the flaws and find a way to get the movement right. Don't be afraid you will loose a big part of your community, by know you should have

realized that the players will come back. As long as they get what they are paying for.

Peace out,

LordAEM

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End of the season (no transfers, actually in terms of direct involvement no anything, as with Hertha finishing 7th and winning the Cup previously).

cqcJP1V.jpg

Similar Burnley campaign.

xd4T7Wa.jpg

Bearing in mind that this is about the most unbalanced and risky you can go over 90 minutes in full (no additional player instructions atop the exposing duty/structuring, but encouraging a high pressing game), and that two of these are the worst sides in their league by far, I don't think it's a surprise that most tend to favor hugely aggressive attacking tactics in any kind of way. Defenses tend to get overwhelmed too easily, even if they have man advantage, and apparently despite individual setbacks you can succeed in simply overloading final thirds. Hugely many runs from deep=good luck defending them. What might factor into this that even the cheapest teams can be turned into a threat in front of goal is also that technical attributes in isolation, such as first touch, passing and technique are still very under weighted in the calculations, in terms of simple ball retention ability anyhow (that is, keeping the ball over short distances). If you want to test this, go into the editor and give every single Bayern player low single digit values in each of those and simulate a season on full match details. 1) the side won't underperform and 2) will have multiple of the best passers in the league still. The latter has always been the case, at least so far. That sounds a little geeky an experiment, but part of the attraction of FM to me is that it is as much of a management game as it is a simulation of a virtual (football) world, one that doesn't care if you actually participate an iota, a sandbox with managers and footballers rather than criminals and fast cars. As such most such experiments yielded reasonable results (which is a compliment, however this wasn't one of them). What made it harder to play keep-ball with lowlier teams was the tendency of mentally weak players to feel pressure more often when closed down, or to make bad decisions, which lead to the booting of the ball. Playing in the fourth tier now, this doesn't happen as hugely often either even when watching matches in full. Again, can it be that the effect of players getting closed down has been tuned down?

One of my personal bug bears in my regular fourth tier save thus were the goals that came off perfect first touch passing sequences all the way into tightly crowded boxes, which are all very likely to happen in particular after attacking throw ins, when the attacking side has most of its players parked in and around the area and ready in attacking position to engage in such a sequence, and I generally had matches in which 3/4 of all goals came from throw-ins, does SI track statistics for that? Players being closed down at the edge of the area by multiple players, still staying perfectly calm and laying the ball off to his colleagues that by now naturally are wihtout markers, etc. That naturally goes both ways, and perception might skew the truth in behind the personal assessment, however naturally if you sit deep after going up rather than attacking further, you will concede more of such situations and become a little extra suspicious. To put it short: I still don't think that the entire match action has ever been this biased towards attacking tactics. As argued, both claiming the right of the weak as well as dominating opposition was equally viable, and for a cracking experience look no further than Ackter's Catenaccio thread. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/374841-To-Catenaccio-and-BEYOND! He was the supposedly cheating AI, the personal nemesis of every single human player who had ever focused on nothing but dominating a few (shot) statistics. And he didn't concede a bloody thing.

Excellent post again, one more and you have 2,000 :)

EDIT: Did you post that in the bug forums, too?

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LordAEM, here's the thing though. I agree with a decent bit of what you've said. But the number of big releases every year that are finished and bug-free at launch can be numbered on one hand with fingers left over. That's why so many companies are going to early access / paid beta / slow rollout releases. That's not really an option for SI.

Meanwhile you get games like Sim City, Halo: Master Chief Collection and Assassin's Creed: Unity that are actually unplayable at launch. Not frustrating to play or feel unfinished or unpolished like FM 2014 or 2015, but actually nonfunctional. Sim City's servers were a joke and its groundbreaking new engine was a single line of code that could be commented out with no problems. Halo's multiplayer has required so many patches that both 343 Games and Microsoft have issued official apologies, and Microsoft has given away XBox Live Gold credits and Halo ODST to people who bought the game. Assassin's Creed also drew an official apology, and Ubisoft pulled sales of the Gold Edition and the season DLC pass. They also gave customers their choice of free games in exchange for those same customers agreeing not to sue.

So maintain a bit of perspective. As frustrating as FM's issues can be at times, the fact that it's a fully realized, functional game elevates it over a lot of major releases.

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Sun i agree. Been there done that (ESO launch, and several other MMOs). Like i said the game is better then the last 2 releases, but the main thing that bothers me year after year is player movement.

It's just not realistic.

SI can do early access, in the form of their demo. Every year SI has had a Demo out before the game launched. This year there wasn't. Now i don't know the reason, but one can speculate that maybe SI

wasn't ready. The other thing is the games you mention aren't a continuous release (they don't have a game come out each year around the same time). Player movement has been the 1 big issue in the last

3 releases. That's 3 years of investigating. Even in their video's SI was gloating about their GKs for this edition, but let's face it this year the GKs are worse then any previous edition of FM.

I love the game, but at a given point you just want to tell SI what is lacking, because you see it every single game. I've got more hours in this game then in any previous edition so that tells you enough.

I like the game, but at the same time i hate how players move around the pitch.

Appreciate your input though Sun.

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I'm curious as to why people feel the need to use offensive/insulting/aggressive terminology when all we're asking for is constructive feedback so the game can be improved. :confused:

SI listen to reasoned discussion, anything else makes them stop reading the whole forum.

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The opposite of the above would picking a defensive tactics, a formation that suits it and encouraging it to drop even deeper than it would by default. But if you do that, you'll be hammered. Fluke goals and space are there no matter what, be it from attacking throw-ins, crosses, inch perfect passes in between the centre backs... it must be a hell of a balancing job though, and I appreciate that. Defending on FM already overly relies on successfull tacklings, that is why there are so hugely many of them. However, cranking those up thus can not be the solution to offset off the ball positioning, passing accuracy, shooting decision making and similar, which from my experience are vastly improved, even when under pressure and closed down. Additionially the physics are far less predictable. Players like Hazard cut through defenses like the hot knife through butter, and I frequently saw the trio of Lewandowski, Müller and Robben outright toying against packed defenses even completely isolated and on their own. Caring about robust defenses, I don't think I'm going to be super best friends with this ME iteration though. I enjoyed surviving CL group stages with minnows in prior iterations, as it was possible to claim the right of the weak and with a little luck score the one crucial goal from the few shots we get, which could be enough. I don't think it is quite as consistently possible here though.

Aren't you making the mistake of equating defensive tactics with sitting deep and giving up space? Being a consistently good defensive team has historically always required a very well drilled and carefully planned strategy of pressing and disruption. The problem with a few previous versions has been that individual quality too often failed to beat a robust deep unit sitting right in front of their goal which made standing off and conceding space an attractive prospect from a defensive point of view. I haven't played against the Hazards and Robbens in FM15 yet myself, but them being able to beat passive defenses through individual quality sounds just about right to me.

My personal approach to FM has always been defense first. As said, I haven't played the top level teams in FM15 so my experience is limited to a range of tiers below them. But so far I've really enjoyed how well I can set my team up defensively on all the levels I have played at. This is my current season in the Hungarian second divison:

iJJgDpF.jpg

Granted, achieving that requires keeping more than 55% possession on average, but possession in my view is the main defensive tool anyway. For me this is close to as good as it gets defensively. However I'd still expect individual quality to beat that approach more often when moving up to a top level. That would only make sense.

Do you feel there are issues with defensive logic in the ME? Because I can't see it. All I see is AI unable to cope with the level of tactical flexibility. The AI teams let user teams overwhelm them with attacking tactics because they don't know how to set up defensively. Cramming everybody in their own box isn't a good enough strategy anymore and going all out attack back at them is only going to end in a frantic end to end stuff where the user will have an upper hand in most instances. It's going to be a tough balancing act but I do feel the focus has to be on AI tactics instead of ME mechanics.

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Aren't you making the mistake of equating defensive tactics with sitting deep and giving up space? Being a consistently good defensive team has historically always required a very well drilled and carefully planned strategy of pressing and disruption. The problem with a few previous versions has been that individual quality too often failed to beat a robust deep unit sitting right in front of their goal which made standing off and conceding space an attractive prospect from a defensive point of view. I haven't played against the Hazards and Robbens in FM15 yet myself, but them being able to beat passive defenses through individual quality sounds just about right to me.

My personal approach to FM has always been defense first. As said, I haven't played the top level teams in FM15 so my experience is limited to a range of tiers below them. But so far I've really enjoyed how well I can set my team up defensively on all the levels I have played at. This is my current season in the Hungarian second divison:

iJJgDpF.jpg

Granted, achieving that requires keeping more than 55% possession on average, but possession in my view is the main defensive tool anyway. For me this is close to as good as it gets defensively. However I'd still expect individual quality to beat that approach more often when moving up to a top level. That would only make sense.

Do you feel there are issues with defensive logic in the ME? Because I can't see it. All I see is AI unable to cope with the level of tactical flexibility. The AI teams let user teams overwhelm them with attacking tactics because they don't know how to set up defensively. Cramming everybody in their own box isn't a good enough strategy anymore and going all out attack back at them is only going to end in a frantic end to end stuff where the user will have an upper hand in most instances. It's going to be a tough balancing act but I do feel the focus has to be on AI tactics instead of ME mechanics.

Well, he is obviously talking about WEAKER teams that try to have at least a solid defense. Of course with Barcelona you don't sit deep when you want to have a good defensive record. But weaker teams, that just don't have the ability to keep possession, need to sit deep and restrict space in the final third to be defensively solid. This is next to impossible in FM 15, though, as shots for your opponent increase the more you fall back (which shouldn't be that much the case, except for long distance shots, because you do restrict space in front of your area, which decreases the amount of shots in real life).

Basically, you can only have a good defense if your team is good overall. That's why it's a save tactic to go kamikaze with let's say Burnley and evade relegation with 90 goals for and 95 against.

I'm yet to see someone conceding less than 40 goals with Burnley, e.g.

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Well, he is obviously talking about WEAKER teams that try to have at least a solid defense. Of course with Barcelona you don't sit deep when you want to have a good defensive record. But weaker teams, that just don't have the ability to keep possession, need to sit deep and restrict space in the final third to be defensively solid. This is next to impossible in FM 15, though, as shots for your opponent increase the more you fall back (which shouldn't be that much the case, except for long distance shots, because you do restrict space in front of your area, which decreases the amount of shots in real life).

Basically, you can only have a good defense if your team is good overall. That's why it's a save tactic to go kamikaze with let's say Burnley and evade relegation with 90 goals for and 95 against.

I'm yet to see someone conceding less than 40 goals with Burnley, e.g.

If you concede space then by very nature you will concede shots. What is an example of a poor team sitting deep, not playing the pressure game and getting consistent results? There's a reason poor teams generally end up bottom of the table with a lot of goals conceded.

My Hungarian team is hardly Barcelona either. Nor have any of the teams I've managed in this version which vary from Swedish amateurs to English lower leagues and similar. I've had a good defensive record with every one of them.

Evading relegation with Burnley should be an extremely difficult prospect with whatever tactics. It's not good that it's so easily done with attacking tactics but that doesn't mean it should be remotely easy to make them concede around 1 goal per game. The real life version has 36 goals against in 22 games.

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Basically, you can only have a good defense if your team is good overall.

I think this is quite a sweeping statement. I've had the best defensive record in the Premier League with Southampton, in Hong Kong with Sun Pegasus, in Sweden with IFK Göteborg, Australia with Melbourne City and now the Third Division in Brazil with Águia de Marabá.

Barring Sweden and England, my teams have been far from competitive in terms of relative player quality in their leagues.

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I think this is quite a sweeping statement.

Not to mention that it's also quite accurate generally when it comes to reality. What are the historical examples of poor teams that have been great defensively?

A good example of successful defensive strategy in the top game, at least in England, obviously has to be Stoke under Pulis. They however had a team that were taller and stronger than their opponents, played a very aggressive disruption game (ask Arsenal fans) and maximized their size and strength through set pieces. And they still took their fair share of beatings. That's just how football is at top level where so many individual players have match winning ability.

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I think this is quite a sweeping statement. I've had the best defensive record in the Premier League with Southampton, in Hong Kong with Sun Pegasus, in Sweden with IFK Göteborg, Australia with Melbourne City and now the Third Division in Brazil with Águia de Marabá.

Barring Sweden and England, my teams have been far from competitive in terms of relative player quality in their leagues.

Yes I admit I was overshooting a tad. I do have a great defensive record myself, but not by sitting deep. The counter approach never worked for me in FM 15, but did work excellently in FM 14. Was that in your first season with Southhampton or more down the road, when the team was supposedly strenghtened quite a bit? And did you play rather defensively or were you pressing high?

@Äkttsjon Männ: Of course it's a bit of a paradox to look for "poor" teams with a great defense, because as soon as a team is defensively solid, you won't call it "poor" anymore. What I mean is, take a team that is let's say flop 5 regarding CA-average in your league, and overachieve with them through a solid defence rather than through an attacking style (that is, sit deep, play on the counter etc.). In FM 15 I think - and that's what Svenc argued and proved with his experiment - that's either not possible at all or it is at least always a lot less profitable than just going all out attack. And this is something that needs to be adressed ASAP. Offensive, risky style for weak teams should only be an effective option if the team has the players for it (like high work rate, aggression, stamina for high pressing game etc., or if they just have 8 brilliant forwards but only incompetent defenders e.g.).

I think we would all agree, that if Burnley played the above mentioned tactic, they WOULD end up with 90 goals against them, but certainly with a lot less goals FOR them, wouldn't we?

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Not to mention that it's also quite accurate generally when it comes to reality. What are the historical examples of poor teams that have been great defensively?

Absolutely agree in terms of real-life context; I was just disputing the notion that in FM you can't defend well with a crap team.

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Yes I admit I was overshooting a tad. I do have a great defensive record myself, but not by sitting deep. The counter approach never worked for me in FM 15, but did work excellently in FM 14. Was that in your first season with Southhampton or more down the road, when the team was supposedly strenghtened quite a bit? And did you play rather defensively or were you pressing high?

@Äkttsjon Männ: Of course it's a bit of a paradox to look for "poor" teams with a great defense, because as soon as a team is defensively solid, you won't call it "poor" anymore. What I mean is, take a team that is let's say flop 5 regarding CA-average in your league, and overachieve with them through a solid defence rather than through an attacking style (that is, sit deep, play on the counter etc.). In FM 15 I think - and that's what Svenc argued and proved with his experiment - that's either not possible at all or it is at least always a lot less profitable than just going all out attack. And this is something that needs to be adressed ASAP. Offensive, risky style for weak teams should only be an effective option if the team has the players for it (like high work rate, aggression, stamina for high pressing game etc., or if they just have 8 brilliant forwards but only incompetent defenders e.g.).

I think we would all agree, that if Burnley played the above mentioned tactic, they WOULD end up with 90 goals against them, but certainly with a lot less goals FOR them, wouldn't we?

Yes it is possible, although the sitting deep point has to be separate as you just can't equate sitting deep and countering with defensive play (I'm still waiting to hear examples of lesser teams who concede all the space, don't press or disrupt yet get consistent results). Less profitable than overloading the AI, yes. The difference that I'm desperately arguing against the majority here is that the latter is much more likely to be down to AI's handling of tactics if the former is true.

And again, playing on the counter is a very difficult concept that requires both skill and speed in abundance. We need to stop with the idea that technically poor teams should be able to execute it with any sort of consistency either defensively or in attack. Simply sitting deep and expecting your stronger opponents not to batter you with all the space you concede shouldn't be any more successful than going all out attack on them.

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Yes I admit I was overshooting a tad. I do have a great defensive record myself, but not by sitting deep. The counter approach never worked for me in FM 15, but did work excellently in FM 14. Was that in your first season with Southhampton or more down the road, when the team was supposedly strenghtened quite a bit? And did you play rather defensively or were you pressing high?

Just had a look at my stats, and in season one we conceded 27 in 38 league games (just Arsenal and City conceded fewer). We were still relatively average in the second season in terms of player quality, but had the best overall defensive record with 29 conceded. It was an Attacking Mentality within the constraints of a defensive formation (4-1-4-1).

There are a bunch of factors at play overall and somewhere between Äktsjon Männ and Svenc is the ideal middle ground. Äktsjon Männ correctly points out that there aren't really contemporary real life examples of bad teams sitting deep, conceding space and doing well. Svenc's observations about Attack Duty positioning are known issues and they inevitably lessen the likelihood even more of deep defensive systems working well with lesser sides in FM15 at the moment.

If / when the advanced Duty balance is resolved, then the effectiveness of imbalanced systems becomes diluted and it therefore should appropriately increase the effectiveness of a defensive system. When that stage is reached, Äktsjon Männ's point about lesser teams' ability to defend well still holds within the appropriate context.

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Twelve tutoring assignments come back at once, every single one "such and such is a little disappointed..." Squad with great morale, top of the league, every one was one of the recommended tutors. Pointless.

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Bearing in mind that this is about the most unbalanced and risky you can go over 90 minutes in full (no additional player instructions atop the exposing duty/structuring, but encouraging a high pressing game), and that two of these are the worst sides in their league by far, I don't think it's a surprise that most tend to favor hugely aggressive attacking tactics in any kind of way. Defenses tend to get overwhelmed too easily, even if they have man advantage, and apparently despite individual setbacks you can succeed in simply overloading final thirds. Hugely many runs from deep=good luck defending them. What might factor into this that even the cheapest teams can be turned into a threat in front of goal is also that technical attributes in isolation, such as first touch, passing and technique are still very under weighted in the calculations, in terms of simple ball retention ability anyhow (that is, keeping the ball over short distances).

I strongly, strongly agree with this. I was far too fearful in my first few games in the EPL with newly-promoted Norwich. I tried to have a patient, cautious counter and got pounded a few times. When I shrugged my shoulders, gave up trying to keep the ball, pushed higher, pressed higher, and set more players to aggressively attack the box from deep, I started winning and winning big. I'm now seventh, Kyle Lafferty is the leading scorer in the Premier League, and Norwich have more goals than anyone else in the league. Despite having relatively mediocre first touch and passing, we have some of the highest passing success rates in the league. We just overload most teams, and my recklessness is overwhelmingly rewarded.

After multiple patches, this FM finally looks sort of like real football, but I think it's more fundamentally flawed than in the last few years. There are still far too many goals. It's still far too easy to score. AI defending, interceptions and controlling of space are still mediocre, and the game still uses whopping amounts of tackling and poor finishing of great chances to compensate. It feels easier to "game" than it did in FM14, bizarrely, and fewer approaches feel valid. Certainly it feels like you're hamstringing yourself if you play safety-first football. Why not just win 5-2?

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It's the one bugbear I have about the bug reporting system, but I know that it's no simple task. If they could say, for example, "Upload your current save, and we'll do the rest", and then go in and be able to call back everything that has happened (within reason) to track down the bug. To be honest, that's probably something they've thought about and gone "wouldn't it be nice" or already completely discounted it, but it's always something I've thought about when it comes to reporting bugs.

Go on then, I'll say it - would be nice if I could hear what the SI devs think about that :p

I'll say this then :cool: : getting the save issue fixed will result in people keeping running saves more often and thus helping to have a pre-issue save. I'm not having the save issue, so I always have one per week.

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Yes it is possible, although the sitting deep point has to be separate as you just can't equate sitting deep and countering with defensive play (I'm still waiting to hear examples of lesser teams who concede all the space, don't press or disrupt yet get consistent results). Less profitable than overloading the AI, yes. The difference that I'm desperately arguing against the majority here is that the latter is much more likely to be down to AI's handling of tactics if the former is true.

And again, playing on the counter is a very difficult concept that requires both skill and speed in abundance. We need to stop with the idea that technically poor teams should be able to execute it with any sort of consistency either defensively or in attack. Simply sitting deep and expecting your stronger opponents not to batter you with all the space you concede shouldn't be any more successful than going all out attack on them.

I agree with everything except the last sentence. You make it sound like lesser teams choose to sit deep and get battered... and better teams don't know better ways to "batter" their opponents than to shoot on sight... Sometimes teams park the bus because they think it's the only thing to do, sometimes they have the best intentions but they're simply swept away by their opponents. And great teams, nowadays, tend to win matches by carefully choosing their chances, instead of constantly crossing/dribbling/shooting. Which is something the ME sometimes "forgets" to represent: it seems that you're playing in the best possible way and the goal is about to come, and yet you don't score, and you're kind of forced to play "worse" in order to obtain "better" results.

Anyway, I agree that AI's handling of tactics (and even more specifically, formations) is much more "to blame" than the ME, atm. Although I still can't believe my eyes when I see my lone striker on support duty (Woodrow, Mitroglu, Tevez, Morata, Championship, EPL, Serie A, doesn't matter) scoring more than one goal per game...

If / when the advanced Duty balance is resolved, then the effectiveness of imbalanced systems becomes diluted and it therefore should appropriately increase the effectiveness of a defensive system. When that stage is reached, Äktsjon Männ's point about lesser teams' ability to defend well still holds within the appropriate context.

I'm kind of scared of the contingent effects of this possible "dilution". The thing I like the most about the current ME is that you can clearly see the difference between defend, support and attack duties. If duties are "watered down" (again), then it'll be harder to see what's right/wrong with your tactics. People complain because trequartistas and poachers don't track back... Well, they're not supposed to. Use other roles and duties if you want them to track back. Want a defensive tactic? Start with a defensive formation, with defenders, defensive midfielders and/or wingbacks. Want to attack? put more players upfront. It's simple, easy and tbh not far from the truth.

First and foremost, changes should be made on AI/database level, IMO.

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Granted, achieving that requires keeping more than 55% possession on average, but possession in my view is the main defensive tool anyway. For me this is close to as good as it gets defensively. However I'd still expect individual quality to beat that approach more often when moving up to a top level. That would only make sense.

Was kind of like my point. Obviously defending is a balancing act. However, whilst in real life minnows can frustrate opposition on occasion simply by keeping men back and deep in numbers, in this iteration this means jack at all in comparison to some earlier releases, though arguably in particular up to FM 2012, forcing opponents to take long shots was probably too easy (defensive mentality+drop deeper+stand off, etc.). Or to put it in another way: Whilst pushing men simply up in numbers results in a ton of goals regardless of player quality, doing the opposite is a much harder thing to do. I'm managing in lower divisions right now too, where it is obvious from the statistics that individual class doesn't quite as shine (my top wingers average but two runs per game which makes them already the top of their league and is arguably too few -- at the top it is multiple times of that which is too much though if you look at real life stats), so that is a bit different. However, naturally the way the attribute system is set up, everything rubs off on any level of play (a supposedly, I don't know, increase in prowess of dribblings/off the ball movement/decision making affects all levels). However it is the very top naturally with player such as Hazard or Aguero in the EPL who multiple times during a match create space out of jack all all by themselves, naturally.

It's a tough compare to real life football though, whilst anybody's talking anecdotes. What relegation side does that? What team plays that way full stop?! More recently Nuremberg hired Verbeek last autumn when they were struggling against relegation and he did encourage them to play a pro-active possession game, which is unusual for a side out of confidence and struggling to get results, however then he was sacked before the season was wrapped and Nuremberg were relegated regardless. However at least personally I'm confident that I couldn't have gotten such good results with the teams had I not encouraged the side to go all out attack. That's twice almost qualifying for Europe with the weakest teams. I'm positively hopeful actually that it's just me though. That's not a call for it to be easy (or even possible) to get a side such as Burnley conceding a goal per match or anything. That is more a call of it being a tad more difficult for sides to break down in particular packed boxes and tight bands of players in front of it, rather than walking straight in regardless time and time again. I may be wrong, but that balance appears to have shifted a little.

Do you feel there are issues with defensive logic in the ME? Because I can't see it. All I see is AI unable to cope with the level of tactical flexibility. The AI teams let user teams overwhelm them with attacking tactics because they don't know how to set up defensively. Cramming everybody in their own box isn't a good enough strategy anymore and going all out attack back at them is only going to end in a frantic end to end stuff where the user will have an upper hand in most instances. It's going to be a tough balancing act but I do feel the focus has to be on AI tactics instead of ME mechanics.

The AI arguably too readily couples more cautious mentalities with drop deeper encouragements from the looks of it, for instance, which also likely contribute to games with high shot counts. If all was entirelly down to AI decision making though, set up a new save, preferable in Classic as there is little so such thing as a tactics being ungelled, pick two teams, arrange a friendly and try it. :-) Personally I did and found it hard to cope with everybody advancing into the box. The first match-up was won, but it was harum-scarum stuff and a little luck, 6-5 or something. The best way to go about it would be not getting it to that point though probably, that is keeping the ball off them and not encouraging to get pinned back in the first place. Some of the more physical side of defending has traditionally not been implemented into FM quite of yet, the shoulder charging, the huffing and puffing, the physical contacts. If all you'd watch was key highlights, which naturally only shows defending at its most passive on either end very likely, it'd also draw an exaggerated picture of the state of things though. On the positive side, obviously there's much to admire about some of the fluidity on display, the runs being made into space that opens up, the interlinking of passes, the many direct and through balls when they're on, the way attacking players try to evade their markers. Going back to earlier releases, attacking play is far more robotic. :-)

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I agree with everything except the last sentence. You make it sound like lesser teams choose to sit deep and get battered... and better teams don't know better ways to "batter" their opponents than to shoot on sight...

That sentence was in FM context. You're right of course that in reality a lot of cases of teams defending very deep is not by choice but simply a result of the other team pinning them back. In FM it's much more flexible because team shape is very heavily dependent on the formation you select. Sitting deep and standing off is thus even more counter productive because good teams look to pin bad ones back in their own half right from the start. Going deep and passive forces you even deeper with lesser outlets so conceding a lot of shots has to be expected.

It's a tough compare to real life football though, whilst anybody's talking anecdotes. What relegation side does that? What team plays that way full stop?! More recently Nuremberg hired Verbeek last autumn when they were struggling against relegation and he did encourage them to play a pro-active possession game, which is unusual for a side out of confidence and struggling to get results, however then he was sacked before the season was wrapped and Nuremberg were relegated regardless. However at least personally I'm confident that I couldn't have gotten such good results with the teams had I not encouraged the side to go all out attack. That's twice almost qualifying for Europe with the weakest teams. I'm positively hopeful actually that it's just me though. That's not a call for it to be easy (or even possible) to get a side such as Burnley conceding a goal per match or anything. That is more a call of it being a tad more difficult for sides to break down in particular packed boxes and tight bands of players in front of it, rather than walking straight in regardless time and time again. I may be wrong, but that balance appears to have shifted a little.

If you're referring to my Hungarian example then as I said, that's the extreme end. The team are not relegation candidates so keeping possession as a defensive tool is very viable. I wouldn't expect it to work with Burnley in the Premier League simply because player quality will prevail most of the times. But the principles can still be applied. Pressure is a vital part of any successful defense and key to consistency. You can retreat into your own box and get a result through incredible goalkeeping, opposition having an off day or simply through a large dose of luck but over a stretch of games that has never been, nor will it ever become a winning strategy.

Some of the more physical side of defending has traditionally not been implemented into FM quite of yet, the shoulder charging, the huffing and puffing, the physical contacts. If all you'd watch was key highlights, which naturally only shows defending at its most passive on either end very likely, it'd also draw an exaggerated picture of the state of things though. On the positive side, obviously there's much to admire about some of the fluidity on display, the runs being made into space that opens up, the interlinking of passes, the many direct and through balls when they're on, the way attacking players try to evade their markers. Going back to earlier releases, attacking play is far more robotic. :-)

Yes, the physical side of defending is still not there, but that will not change in FM15. I actually enjoyed the previous version of the 15 ME (15.1.something?) more than the current one because it compensated more heavily through defenders scrambling back, making blocks and recovering tackles etc. But it did overpower the defensive recovery too far which made it too easy to completely shut down all opponents even with really weak teams. 15.2 is more balanced in this regard in my opinion.

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I'm kind of scared of the contingent effects of this possible "dilution". The thing I like the most about the current ME is that you can clearly see the difference between defend, support and attack duties. If duties are "watered down" (again), then it'll be harder to see what's right/wrong with your tactics. People complain because trequartistas and poachers don't track back... Well, they're not supposed to. Use other roles and duties if you want them to track back. Want a defensive tactic? Start with a defensive formation, with defenders, defensive midfielders and/or wingbacks. Want to attack? put more players upfront. It's simple, easy and tbh not far from the truth.

First and foremost, changes should be made on AI/database level, IMO.

I also strongly agree with this. In my view the defensive positioning of attack duty players is just fine and how I'd expect it to be. I would be disappointed to see it change back. What is not fine is AI's use of duty combinations and it's ability to punish the human player for similarly illogical tactical choices.

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Oh and sorry for the triple post, but this just occurred in my save.

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Just what exactly am I supposed to say here? Not a single aspect of this makes the tiniest bit of sense.

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That's clearly a bug. He doesn't seem to be recognising that he has been playing regularly. If you have a save from before his complaint, it would be greatly appreciated in the bugs forum.

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I also strongly agree with this. In my view the defensive positioning of attack duty players is just fine and how I'd expect it to be. I would be disappointed to see it change back. What is not fine is AI's use of duty combinations and it's ability to punish the human player for similarly illogical tactical choices.

in real life football everyone plays defense and tracks back. it's just the basis of football that wingers track back after full-backs. SI stated it needs fixing. I'm yet to see attackers positioning like on those pictures Svenc posted. ever. also sitting deep in own half tactcics is standard for real life qiuck counter-attacking football most low and middle tier teams play like that.

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in real life football everyone plays defense and tracks back. it's just the basis of football that wingers track back after full-backs. SI stated it needs fixing. I'm yet to see attackers positioning like on those pictures Svenc posted. ever. also sitting deep in own half tactcics is standard for real life qiuck counter-attacking football most low and middle tier teams play like that.

Everyone tracks back how far? You've never seen attackers keep their position higher up during the defensive phase? I'm sorry but you should start paying more attention if not. The issue with those screenshots is the amount of players staying up in defensive phase not the positioning itself.

Also most lower tier teams absolutely do not successfully play quick counter attacking football. They may try, but not being that quick or technically skilled tends to make it rather futile. They do get forced deep as discussed but that's rarely by choice. Again, there's a reason lesser skilled teams end up where they do results wise i.e low in the league tables.

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There are a bunch of factors at play overall and somewhere between Äktsjon Männ and Svenc is the ideal middle ground. Äktsjon Männ correctly points out that there aren't really contemporary real life examples of bad teams sitting deep, conceding space and doing well. Svenc's observations about Attack Duty positioning are known issues and they inevitably lessen the likelihood even more of deep defensive systems working well with lesser sides in FM15 at the moment.

I wasn't so much trying to argue that bad teams sitting deep should do well, they should struggle regardless of approach (it is, by the way, possible to play keep-ball even with lesser sides, which is arguably tied to how technical attributes factor little into simple ball retention -- perhaps somebody remembers my screenshot of 10 EPL games in succession of which 7 ended in a nill nill draw). I was merely arguing that dropping deep is a viable defensive strategy often taken by inferior sides as a means of frustrating superior opposition, their chance of getting a result, and not merely by luck, but denying exclusively the space where said opposition can hurt them, and not conceding that space by getting outplayed by superior technique and pace far up the pitch already by defending high and closing down all over the shop. It is typically the far weaker side, unless we're talking i.e. Chelsea's ploys of dismantling Barca in the CL ties of 2012, for instance -- them simply dropping deep and succeeding in such would overly simplify their approach tactically and would downplay the individual displays of top quality players they had in trying such, but nonetheless there ware large spells in the tie that resembled a match of handball more than association football (and earlier with Inter in 2010 they let Barca have more than 80% of the ball, which is probably still a record on that level to this day). But in the end as controlling a ball with a foot is a bit harder to do than with a hand, even for those graduating at La Masia, the re-active side prevailed and had a realistic chance of doing such.

Such defensive tactics are applied by AI managers in the game anyway, perhaps a bit too drastically and readily, but that is a matter of research and how it ties into AI tactical decision making. FM tends to be biased a little in terms of attacking plays in such a way that I don't think it is a surprise that many tend to go with more proactive tactics regardless of side. And I think older iterations had that balance better on, but let's agree to disagree. I'd be interested in putting it to the test whether the Burnley/Augsburg/Hertha case was all down to AI decision making though or whether boxes are too readily penetrated regardless of player quality. Like exporting one of the sides for a head-to-head online match-up on the weekend. :-) On the top level, Hazard/Aguero/Robben have been nerfed a little, but in December they could (statistically, see the CCC case, cough) average up to 14 dribblings per EPL match. That is 14 on average.

As for the duties: The problem with the duties, is firstly that the most defensive midfielder(s), at least if you opt to field one of such, would need an awareness of whether a side keeps multiple players upfront. I think there is too much space in which pairs or trios of attack duty attacking players can operate in when the attacking side advances. But for a more professional assessment of that SI fortunately appear to have all the football contacts they need. The other problem is more from a gamey perspective. I don't remember exactly, but the reason the majority of players were struggling with the rather unsubtle 4-2-4 tactics the AI used to switch to when trying to chase a game years back was that it suddenly just happened like that, and you'd need to immediately adapt by keeping your full backs at bay. This was basically but about two positions, 2 wingers turning into basically static forwards always high up the pitch all of a sudden. You can field up to 6 players in the respective (AMC/FWD) slots and give them an attack duty each. Even if it was a change of one/two to three, such a dynamics in most formations (two centre backs) immediately shifts the balance.

AI tactics will remain lesser ones in terms of creativity, but in online saves, leagues and matches I can see human players switching duties around like mad, turning this into a battle of micro-duty-twists and turns, essentially number games, that wouldn't happen in football as players or certainly managers would spot what's going on. So I think the problem is two-fold. 1) Whether it depicts a realistic positioning approach, in particular regarding how sides in possession have always operated in FM. 2) Whether it is viable as a "gameplay" mechanism -- there have been various options taken out of the game or made hard coded before as they proved to lend themselves to exploits or unrealistic player behavior. Plus naturally the AI issues as that can't cope with it, as argued.

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I'll say this then :cool: : getting the save issue fixed will result in people keeping running saves more often and thus helping to have a pre-issue save. I'm not having the save issue, so I always have one per week.

Indeed. I'd like to save a lot more regularly than I am, but it's taking three to four minutes to save each time.

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It's weird how 42 teams have all agreed that a £15 million future fee is too high, but £8.75 million is just right. It's also weird how six teams have decided that £11 million is too much for Keiran Gibbs, but £9.5 million paid out over 48 months is perfect.

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Still getting this annoying thing after I've clinched promotion with a few games left where I'm asked to hold a team meeting every week until the end of the season to inspire my squad to pick up the one point I need to go up. I even get this in the last game if I'm miles clear. And it's always a team talk option as well! Doesn't actually make any tangible difference, but it's weird.

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Still getting this annoying thing after I've clinched promotion with a few games left where I'm asked to hold a team meeting every week until the end of the season to inspire my squad to pick up the one point I need to go up. I even get this in the last game if I'm miles clear. And it's always a team talk option as well! Doesn't actually make any tangible difference, but it's weird.
Can you log this as a bug.

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Are you having a laugh now SI?

And to those that suggested that too many shots is linked to attacking style, I play COUNTER strategy 4-4-2- with wingers pushed to AM posi, not even standard or control, i use work ball into the box and my players have 56 shots on goal? Please, do the needful with this game, it is not even funny anymore. I am not bothered by the score, but i would prefer realistic football instead of this arcadish nonsense.

This is not a rant, i am just expressing my dissapointment.

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What was the long shots count from that game? Not digging just might help explain it

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Are you having a laugh now SI?

And to those that suggested that too many shots is linked to attacking style, I play COUNTER strategy 4-4-2- with wingers pushed to AM posi, not even standard or control, i use work ball into the box and my players have 56 shots on goal? Please, do the needful with this game, it is not even funny anymore. I am not bothered by the score, but i would prefer realistic football instead of this arcadish nonsense.

This is not a rant, i am just expressing my dissapointment.

You had 56 shots but only 6 clear chances. You did dominate possession and have good completion stats for passes/crosses/tackles.

Its not just about your overall strategy, its about the individual roles/duties/instructions/PPMs/Player tendencies as well.

From my experience this version even with a fairly direct strategy I've never seen my team have more than around 35-40 shots at the very, very most (Generally ave 12-18 per match) so to have 56 with a counter strategy suggests you need to look more at the individuals on the pitch.

Which players were taking the most shots? Were they wasting possession? why? Was it a role, duty, instruction or a PPM causing them to take too many shots.

I suspect if you look closer at the match there will be probably two maybe three players who took the bulk of the shots.

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