Official Football Manager 2015 Feedback Thread 15.2.1

[FM1000]

Although i agree about the corners being to OP i am yet to see players actually dribbling past other players. Especially Inside Forwards. Can any one tell me if SI knows that IF are not playing like they are suppose to? Because i feel like i am ranting at air here.

2 issues i have with IF is that they refuse to cut inside with the ball, they receive the ball and instead of at least trying to dribble they either go to the byline to cross like they are a winger or just stand there after they receive the ball until the opposition defender tackles them. I might be wrong but i think an Inside Forward SHOULD CUT INSIDE WITH THE BALL NOT STAND THERE LIKE AN IDIOT.

Also why do they use their weaker foot all the time they score goals only with headers or with shoots from tight angles with their weaker foot. This was the same in FM 14 too a year later still no changes.

[Sunstrikuuu]

It seems to depend a lot on footedness, PPMs and other stuff. I'm playing Danny Welbeck and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain as my two first-choice inside forwards, both on support. Generally, AOC makes 15+ attacking runs a game and puts in 15+ crosses. Welbeck is more like 5 and 2. In my last game AOC attempted 75 passes; Welbeck about 15. So there's huge variation based on players.

[themadsheep2001]

This thread is great entertainment at times.

It's like a little cauldron of bubbling angst sits there, then one person pipes up and a mini domino effect sparks a series of rants.

Please remember to keep things civil and constructive.

Tidied it up a little.

Please note the bold.

[themadsheep2001]

It seems to depend a lot on footedness, PPMs and other stuff. I'm playing Danny Welbeck and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain as my two first-choice inside forwards, both on support. Generally, AOC makes 15+ attacking runs a game and puts in 15+ crosses. Welbeck is more like 5 and 2. In my last game AOC attempted 75 passes; Welbeck about 15. So there's huge variation based on players.

Yep, Di Maria is far more an incisive runner for me than Mata is. Very important to pay attention to the player's attributes. I've since started using Mata as a Raumdeuter on the left instead.

[akkm]

Yep, Di Maria is far more an incisive runner for me than Mata is. Very important to pay attention to the player's attributes. I've since started using Mata as a Raumdeuter on the left instead.

From the role description of a Raumdeuter mata should not be suited to it...so are you not going against your own point

[themadsheep2001]

From the role description of a Raumdeuter mata should not be suited to it...so are you not going against your own point

You'd think that, but actually Mata's off the ball, finishing, and general mental strengths make it work really well. 10 in 13 from there

[Sunstrikuuu]

I dunno. From the role description, a Raumdeuter is a player who looks for space in wide positions; essentially, a wide trequartista. It's basically Mesut Ozil in the German national team. I know it says 'wide poacher' but that's not complete. It's a position for a wide player with end product, whether that's crossing, finishing or passing and vision. All of those combinations work, but they work differently.

[themadsheep2001]

I dunno. From the role description, a Raumdeuter is a player who looks for space in wide positions; essentially, a wide trequartista. It's basically Mesut Ozil in the German national team. I know it says 'wide poacher' but that's not complete. It's a position for a wide player with end product, whether that's crossing, finishing or passing and vision. All of those combinations work, but they work differently.

Quite, based on the description, one might be thrown by it , but actually it works quite well in various ways. For something seen as very specific (after Muller) it's actually quite a general role in execution.

[akkm]

You'd think that, but actually Mata's off the ball, finishing, and general mental strengths make it work really well. 10 in 13 from there

Don't get me wrong...I've no doubt he has the some of the attributes which would allow him to perform well there but irl there's a strong liklihood he wouldn't perform well in that role. I think though that kind of highlights one of the things that requires most work to take game to the next level...to get players attributes to define more how they play rather than the role itself...yes the role should be nominally how you ask a player to play but the player attributes will take them beyond the role itself in situations ie moments of skill/intangibles will enable player to make the difference. Mata is ostensibly a playmaker and arguably it sounds like you're getting him playing more effectively in a role he shouldn't be that good at than he would in a playmaking role.

I really like the engine at the moment but the only thing i find that takes away from it is players attributes (primarily technical) not being represented as well as they should be. I think it much better than last two years but if you saw skills etc of players being represented as they should be it would be really awesome...streets ahead of any previous engine.

[akkm]

I dunno. From the role description, a Raumdeuter is a player who looks for space in wide positions; essentially, a wide trequartista. It's basically Mesut Ozil in the German national team. I know it says 'wide poacher' but that's not complete. It's a position for a wide player with end product, whether that's crossing, finishing or passing and vision. All of those combinations work, but they work differently.

description is wide poacher...looking to burst through the defence for telling cross or shot...not to create but to to impact through finish...a million miles from a mata or an ozil. Yeah Muller is the type

[themadsheep2001]

Don't get me wrong...I've no doubt he has the some of the attributes which would allow him to perform well there but irl there's a strong liklihood he wouldn't perform well in that role. I think though that kind of highlights one of the things that requires most work to take game to the next level...to get players attributes to define more how they play rather than the role itself...yes the role should be nominally how you ask a player to play but the player attributes will take them beyond the role itself in situations ie moments of skill/intangibles will enable player to make the difference. Mata is ostensibly a playmaker and arguably it sounds like you're getting him playing more effectively in a role he shouldn't be that good at than he would in a playmaking role.

I really like the engine at the moment but the only thing i find that takes away from it is players attributes (primarily technical) not being represented as well as they should be. I think it much better than last two years but if you saw skills etc of players being represented as they should be it would be really awesome...streets ahead of any previous engine.

The thing is ( and perhaps its a discussion for the tactical side of the forum) is that I'm not convinced Mata is ostensibly a playmaker, he made his name on the left wing, scoring a bundle for Valencia and then Chelsea there. if you look at his attribute, he's not very quick or strong, but is very good in ball movement and delivery, very intelligent, and very good at finding space. Don't need to be a playmaker in order to utilise that, as he was wasnt before.

An example of why we should't necessarily pidgeonhole a player.

[akkm]

The thing is ( and perhaps its a discussion for the tactical side of the forum) is that I'm not convinced Mata is ostensibly a playmaker, he made his name on the left wing, scoring a bundle for Valencia and then Chelsea there. if you look at his attribute, he's not very quick or strong, but is very good in ball movement and delivery, very intelligent, and very good at finding space. Don't need to be a playmaker in order to utilise that, as he was wasnt before.

yep but he was played out wide at Valencia to fit him into the team as Silva was the central playmaker. He was played out of position to accomodate his talent and played more centrally after Silva left for City.

I agree with you on all you said on his attributes but its particularly the lack of speed and strength which lends him to being most effective as a central playmaker and that's his preferred role irl. His most effective season for chelsea was before jose joined and he played more centrally that season. I think its his intelligence which allows him to be effective even played out wide and I'd agree even as wide playmaker or even inside forward in theory he would play well but just as a raumdateur specifically its more a role for an impact player rather than a creative player whose physical attributes are as key to off the ball in and also primarily that they look to get on end of moves rather than create moves.

[themadsheep2001]

yep but he was played out wide at Valencia to fit him into the team as Silva was the central playmaker. He was played out of position to accomodate his talent and played more centrally after Silva left for City.

I agree with you on all you said on his attributes but its particularly the lack of speed and strength which lends him to being most effective as a central playmaker and that's his preferred role irl. His most effective season for chelsea was before jose joined and he played more centrally that season. I think its his intelligence which allows him to be effective even played out wide and I'd agree even as wide playmaker or even inside forward in theory he would play well but just as a raumdateur specifically its more a role for an impact player rather than a creative player whose physical attributes are as key to off the ball in and also primarily that they look to get on end of moves rather than create moves.

Mata came through the system younger as a wide man. Both he and Silva are adept on the flanks. Preferring the middle isn't the same as being more effective.

But thats what makes the Raumdeuter work. Muller isnt particuarly quick, or agile, or strong. He's not even that good technically. What he does do is read the game extremely well. Its about the intelligence of the player. And in that sense, it's exactly why it works for a player like Mata (who doesnt actually use his physical ability that much, as its not particuarly strong)

[akkm]

Mata came through the system younger as a wide man. Both he and Silva are adept on the flanks. Preferring the middle isn't the same as being more effective.

But thats what makes the Raumdeuter work. Muller isnt particuarly quick, or agile, or strong. He's not even that good technically. What he does do is read the game extremely well. Its about the intelligence of the player. And in that sense, it's exactly why it works for a player like Mata (who doesnt actually use his physical ability that much, as its not particuarly strong)

He didn't come through the youth system exclusively as a wide man...he played a variety of attacking roles and similarly for spain's under age teams as well...often playing centrally. Of course preference/effectiveness can differ but reality is that Mata had his most effective season ever for Chelsea playing centrally...his goals and assists stats were off the charts. So reality is that Juan Mata's most effective season was when he was played centrally showing that indeed he is more effective in his preferred role through the middle.

Being adept on the flanks isn't being the same as more/most effective either. That he is adept on the flanks doesn't mean he is more effective out there...far from it...similar to silva...it is their talent that allows them to be effective out there but not most effective...both are most effective through the middle.

Also one can't compare the physical attributes of Muller to Mata...Muller has more natural fitness and stamina which lends itself to the raumdeuter role being more effective as well as reading of the game...raumdeuter role requires more spurts of energy to get on end of moves which muller has and mata doesn't. yes mata reads the game well but doesn't have the stamina to wander around waiting to get on the end of moves the way muller does so that should be more limiting in mata's effectiveness in the role. Also as you suggest and i agree with Muller doesn't have high level of technical skills or agility but again that in addition to game reading/stamina and finishing strength is precisely why his attributes lend themselves to being effective in the raumdeuter role...its getting on the end of moves rather than the attributes which mata has which are technicall high. Its Muller's attributes which make him primarily a raumdeuter almost in a limiting sense as he doesnt have the skillset of mata to play a more central playmaking role.

Again agree re mata intelligence but Mata doesn't see the game to get on the end of moves for finishes...he sees the game as so much more and has the attributes and inclination to do more than Muller. Muller and Mata have the off the ball intelligent movement and reading of games skills BUT their purpose when they get there is different. Muller doesn't see the game the way Mata does in that Mata has more innate vision/creativity than Muller does...when Mata gets on the ball he sees other players movements and sees passes to get them in. Muller sees spaces for which he can get in to get on the end of moves himself rather than sees spaces to get others through. This is significantly different in how those players innate talents play out in a game and there is a fundamental difference to how they play/see the game. Nowhere here am I saying Mata doesn't have certain attributes which are useful for raumdeuter role but that's the thing Mata should not be as effective in a raumdeuter role and in FM what happens is the role then starts to define how the player plays where Mata if in real life match given a nominal raumdeuter role is always going to try more than his nominal role even in that real life situation as he has other technical and mental attributes which will mean he will override how he plays (in real life) his role where Muller attributes in real life almost define/limit how he plays and in effect raumdeuter is that role in real life and that's why he's so effective there

[Svenc]

Interesting discussion. I think some arguments are in tendency a bit simplistic/deterministic though. First of all, Mata has all of the Raumdeuter's key attributes bar I think two 15 and up. Secondly, I don't think roles are that deterministic, nor should they be. A player has personal traits, Mata has them also. He is a high flair player that on occasion may break from the plan. He also has the "Gets into opposition's area" PPM, which will make him look to get at the end of moves either way, which given his off the ball prowess he must be quite decent at. If anybody disagrees, that's a research issue then. Then there's also the fact that he's playing for United, and I'd guess in particular a human manager can turn it into quite a dominant force in which he'll be very involved. Agreed about the value of technical attributes. In particular in terms of ball retention.

In general I think roles have become far more influental on play than on previous iterations, and this is little doubt the result of Paul Collyer isolating them as such and making them part of the code, rather than a combination of sliders, which allows him to code specific decision making tendencies into a role. I recently went back to a FM 2012ish save of old and noticed that fielding a target man would make very little difference on general play whatsoever. Even when all defenders were instructed to boot it long with attacking mentalities I rarely ever saw them seeking out their desired target the way it has become now. Seen multiple header flick on goals such as these already when employing a TM/s and finisher combo, never seen such on older versions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Te5NJxmzY

For anybody who's interested, here are some finishing stats I calculated in my more recent run (you can insert SH/T columns into the squad screen that allow you to do so). It appears on average about 1/3 of the shots on target are converted. And more than 40% of all shots are on target (didn't calculate the average). That is, if the AI is in charge. As not each of them will be clear cuts, and clear cut conversion is 33% on average according to Opta, that may put some exaggerating bad finishing claims into perspective. On another note, has anybody noted there appears to be little goals from headers? You'll see in the match reports how many goals from headers are being scored for each team. Currently for instance I see Mainz having 4 out of 21, which is very much. According to this, it should overall hover around the 15% mark, but I also noticed that even encouraging the majority of assists being floating crosses, the forwards appear to be hesistant to finish them with the head, but rather convert them via a first time shot. As the latter is my personal perception, that can be hugely off though. http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/features/headers-in-barclays-premier-league.html

La Liga

Goals Sh/T ShT/G% SH/T %

Messi: 40 135 29,63 45

Suarez 28 92 30,43 39

Neymar 26 75 34,66 51

Ronaldo 36 128 28,12 41

Bale 16 72 22,22 41

Benzema 15 62 24,19 49

Rodriguez 14 37 37,84 34

Mandzukic 26 68 38,24 45

Munian 13 49 26,53 49

EPL

van Persie 27 83 32,53 43

Falcao 21 89 23,59 44

Rooney 13 57 22,80 53

Giroud 25 52 48,07 46

Welbeck 21 70 30,00 45

Costa 31 99 31,31 51

Hazard 25 73 34,25 48

Lukaku 22 57 38,59 55

Eto'o 16 46 34,78 51

Balotelli 18 62 29,03 46

Sturridge 14 54 25,93 48

Agüero 26 92 28,26 54

Dzeko 18 49 36,73 40

Bundesliga

Lewandowski 28 84 33,33 43

Huntelaar 14 35 40,00 38

Kalou 21 49 42,85 42

Werner 20 54 37,04 49

Ibisevic 21 56 37,50 46

Olic 18 56 32,14 43

Okazaki 25 65 38,41 42

Kießling 29 83 34,93 45

Kagawa 13 42 30,95 42

Kruse 23 67 34,32 46

Sorry, can't find a way to format.

[mcb1996]

I want to cry anymore :(

[FM1000]

Quite, based on the description, one might be thrown by it , but actually it works quite well in various ways. For something seen as very specific (after Muller) it's actually quite a general role in execution.

Raumdeuther is a player who cuts inside without the ball looking to receive it and finish the chance with a shoot or a header just like the description says basically a wide poacher. Compared to an IF who actually cuts inside WITH the ball and then shoots or plays a through ball. At least this is how i think they play IRL.

Now the problem in the ME with IF's is that they rarely cut inside with the ball and when its time to shoot or pass they use their weaker foot most of the time instead of using their agility and dribbling skill to position themselves to use their stronger foot.

[akkm]

If you look at it Mata has enough high attributes to play most midfield/forward roles well. And its a fair point on his attribute suitability for raumdeuter but that doesn't make it right. There's no arguing that's a role he would play as effectively in real life as described above...in FM yes perhaps...and clearly he is doing so in themadsheep example. The point is that in FM its the role which can override the effectiveness of players where in real life its players attributes physical/mental/technical which define a players effectiveness..in essence the role of a raumdeuter (or any other role) has never scored a goal in real life..its the player that does the goalscoring.

It reminds me of an argument some last year where a defender from eastern europe (i think, i can't remember exactly) was banging in goals england which was highly unrealistic but was defended on the basis that he had strong physical attributes which would be suited to doing well in england...now that was being overly simplisitic lol.

Just re roles and your point re Man U dominance...I remember last year playing FM using Man Utd and I played players way out of position...inluding playing 3 goalkeepers outfield...one up front and one in number ten position...goalie playing number ten position was getting goals assists/number of passes/dribbles and everything else a top playmaker would. Havent actually tried it this year but will just to see out of interest.

My main point tho is that the representation of attributes particularly technical is where the biggest area of improvement is required. Close control/dribbling/agility are all poor and restrictive to some very rich and enjoyable quality play happening. Last 3 years now always have a look back at FM12 for comparison and I think this year looking at a high level picture of match engine I'd have to say this year is probably the best ever in terms of richness/variation/variability is as good as its been in terms of representing how football plays out in terms of sequences of play. It has come on leaps and bounds from last year.

I know there are the high line/attacking...restricted finishing of some chances and better defending in some instances required and all that but overall the match engine is very good...except for the representation of player skills. When I look at FM12 and see players dribbling/close control and technical skills they are vastly superior to what you see in current version which I find very disappointing and really holds back from watching match and going...wow...wow wow wow. In FM12 the differences of playing technical skills were so obvious between eg and anchor man and a trequartista and also higher level leagues Vs lower level leagues. I think once it gets back to that level the game will be phenomenal to play and watch and will get more and more users/buyers.

I've said it here before...its the skills/ingenuity/intangibles of individual players that get people off their seats and elicit the quote 'worth the admission money alone'...this is what sets the pulses racing for football fans and to its important to represent this in FM better than it is.

[Svenc]

Now the problem in the ME with IF's is that they rarely cut inside with the ball and when its time to shoot or pass they use their weaker foot most of the time instead of using their agility and dribbling skill to position themselves to use their stronger foot.

100% not the IFs. With players such as Ribery and Robben they basically cut inside every time they get the ball, even from deeper positions. And they finish also with their strong foot regularly. However as said, roles aren't that deterministic. What kind of players do you field as IF? They might have traits such as runs with ball down left/right, runs with ball rarely (which is the opposite from cutting inside), refrains from taking long shots or looks for pass rather than attempt to score which will influence their behavior (see their profile for a list if they do).

Spot on about the Raumdeuter. If you look at his personal instructions, you'll also see that you can't encourage him to do much with the ball. Less dribbling is activated by default, as is the encouragement to play shorter passes. Very much a wide player who's supposed to get on the end of things off the ball, rather than being involed much when on the ball.

There's no arguing that's a role he would play as effectively in real life as described above...

Then he needs his attributes nerfed, and his PPMs likely. You see his key attributes being his vision, the way FM sets him up he's also immense at off the ball movement and attempts to get at the end of moves with some frequency. By the way, until van Gaal dropped Schweinsteiger in central midfield he was pretty much a "good but not great" Bundesliga winger hampered by mediocre pace in the DB rather than the class act at the centre of the pitch he is now. It's a bit different to the Mata issue, I reckon, as Schweinsteiger was used a winger at the first squad at Bayern basically all his life til then. But themadsheep suggests Mata initially played a different position likewise, so maybe not much. The best bet for know if you want this changed is to look into the research forums. Even then, I think his finishing traits are good enough that a human manager will get him to score goals in about any suitable role and position on the pitch. :-)

[themadsheep2001]

Raumdeuther is a player who cuts inside without the ball looking to receive it and finish the chance with a shoot or a header just like the description says basically a wide poacher. Compared to an IF who actually cuts inside WITH the ball and then shoots or plays a through ball. At least this is how i think they play IRL.

Now the problem in the ME with IF's is that they rarely cut inside with the ball and when its time to shoot or pass they use their weaker foot most of the time instead of using their agility and dribbling skill to position themselves to use their stronger foot.

I know what a Raumdeuter is. He seeks space (and its not always to finish something, but usually is. But then the only real life example is Muller. The primary role is exploit space) I moved Mata there to do something entirely different.

I have no issues with my IFs cutting inside and slamming the ball at goal with their stronger foot. Di Maria often cuts inside and picks out Mata coming off the left flank.

[Sunstrikuuu]

I played Ozil almost exclusively as a Raumdeuter for a season and found that he got lots and lots of assists from a position about 10 yards out from goal on the left side, playing little square passes and cutbacks into the area between the six-yard box and the penalty spot.

[themadsheep2001]

I played Ozil almost exclusively as a Raumdeuter for a season and found that he got lots and lots of assists from a position about 10 yards out from goal on the left side, playing little square passes and cutbacks into the area between the six-yard box and the penalty spot.

Mata tends to ping it in from the corner for me instead. Di Maria cuts it back across goal. They are quite different players and it's interesting to see how they utilise the same role in the same set up very differently.

[Svenc]

I played Ozil almost exclusively as a Raumdeuter for a season and found that he got lots and lots of assists from a position about 10 yards out from goal on the left side, playing little square passes and cutbacks into the area between the six-yard box and the penalty spot.

Özil also has the "tries killer balls often" personal trait, which basically makes him the type for assists and risky through balls even when fielded a Raumdeuter (the role itself is not about risky passes at´all though). Sounds like a good combination though. :-)

[themadsheep2001]

Özil also has the "tries killer balls often" personal trait, which basically makes him less of a "classic" Raumdeuter than another player would be. :-)

Indeed. On the other hand you could argue he is doing the core part of being Raumdeuter and exploiting the space. The difference is what he does at the end of it.

[CaptainPlanet]

Completely anecdotal feedback, but no matter what subs or tactical changes I make, I am conceding a late goal (85minutes plus) in one in three games. They aren't always winning goals, I could be 4-0 up and playing defensively, but I'll still regularly concede a late goal.

[Acquafresca]

It isn't a lottery, it is a game of skill and understanding. If you understanding the tactics you install into your squad, and what happens when you make changes, you will have a better chance that someone who puts out any eleven players with a standard tactic.

Tell me how many screenshots you want to prove that it is a lottery.

[Dr. Hook]

Tell me how many screenshots you want to prove that it is a lottery.

So what you are saying is that the match engine is a farce, and it is just a random number that decides who wins and loses? Don't be ridiculous, man. You could post 100 screenshots and if the results are all over the map, all you prove is that you don't really understand the game.

[edgar555]

I dunno. From the role description, a Raumdeuter is a player who looks for space in wide positions; essentially, a wide trequartista. It's basically Mesut Ozil in the German national team. I know it says 'wide poacher' but that's not complete. It's a position for a wide player with end product, whether that's crossing, finishing or passing and vision. All of those combinations work, but they work differently.

The phrase Raumdeuter was invented by Thomas Muller to describe himself. Therefore he is the perfect example of one. Ozil definitely isn't.

[akkm]

Spot on about the Raumdeuter. If you look at his personal instructions, you'll also see that you can't encourage him to do much with the ball. Less dribbling is activated by default, as is the encouragement to play shorter passes. Very much a wide player who's supposed to get on the end of things off the ball, rather than being involed much when on the ball.

Then he needs his attributes nerfed, and his PPMs likely. You see his key attributes being his vision, the way FM sets him up he's also immense at off the ball movement and attempts to get at the end of moves with some frequency. By the way, until van Gaal dropped Schweinsteiger in central midfield he was pretty much a "good but not great" Bundesliga winger hampered by mediocre pace in the DB rather than the class act at the centre of the pitch he is now. It's a bit different to the Mata issue, I reckon, as Schweinsteiger was used a winger at the first squad at Bayern basically all his life til then. But themadsheep suggests Mata initially played a different position likewise, so maybe not much. The best bet for know if you want this changed is to look into the research forums. Even then, I think his finishing traits are good enough that a human manager will get him to score goals in about any suitable role and position on the pitch. :-)

Just there you've effectively argued that Mata shouldn't be suited to being a raumdeuter with your description lol...not encouraged to do much with the ball and gets on the end of it rather than being involved on the ball. That goes against Juan Matas game. irl he does the opposite to that. Come on...just cos something happens in FM doesn't make it real

Schweini didn’t start as a winger per se. He played wide alright but lots on the left cutting inside and absolutely not employed in a raumdeuter role. Just reading there as wellI do find it surprising that Ozil in a raumdeuter role has had lots of assists which I guess suggests influence of PPMs which has been more noticeable alright this year and which is good to an extent in that you can have more influence over way your players/team can play but i would also add.

irl a player doesn’t begin with ppms...he has attributes which combine to form a player’s PPMs…its how a player sees the game combined with his talent…that ozil plays through balls often is because of how he sees the game…he has great vision/speed of thought/takes of picture of what he wants to happen and has the technical skills to execute…It is his attributes as an individual which translates to him playing through balls frequently so there should be more of an ability to tap into a players attributes to make him play a certain way rather than have PPMs and roles dictate what a player does on the pitch…ideally player should have a role and you should be able to tweak things to utilise more their attributes. To an extent of course it is there with individual instructions and indeed I’ve found ppms will influence things a lot as well but should be more so as really good coaching is not exclusively tactical/role driven as it involves getting the most out of your players skills and what is it could be argued that (with just a few exceptions) is its actually players skills and attributes which makes coaches look good in the first place. It’s a little bit too limited…I know sliders will never come back and that’s fine but there was a higher sensitivity to get players to use their attributes by tweaking sliders. Would add this has improved this year in that you see more of a sensitivity to player instructions/team instructions/ppms than last two years but still i think when the representation of the attributes themselves improves it will mean improvement in being able to tweak them or players will just be able to do it more then anyway

[Sunstrikuuu]

The phrase Raumdeuter was invented by Thomas Muller to describe himself. Therefore he is the perfect example of one. Ozil definitely isn't.

Great work bypassing all the other discussion though.

[Sunstrikuuu]

I wish I had more than 3 tactics slots.

[Dr. Hook]

While the ramdeuter discussion is interesting, if you want to keep it going, please open a new thread for it and let's keep this for feedback.

[Worldclass]

Spot on! This is holding FM2015 back from being a great game. I recently went back to FM12 to see if players attributes stood out more. And to my surprise, they did. You could see the difference in dribbling, passing, first touch etc. Just by watching the ME, you could tell what players were good at doing. There was loads of individuality, something that has been missing from the last three editions. SI need to bring that level of individuality back into their game and more.

[forameuss]

Spot on! This is holding FM2015 back from being a great game. I recently went back to FM12 to see if players attributes stood out more. And to my surprise, they did. You could see the difference in dribbling, passing, first touch etc. Just by watching the ME, you could tell what players were good at doing. There was loads of individuality, something that has been missing from the last three editions. SI need to bring that level of individuality back into their game and more.

Aye, every player having a 20 for transparency really helped with those dribbles through those pesky defenders...

[daylight]

The problem is that before it was all about the players, things were much simpler back then, you basically played a 4-4-2 with arrows going in whatever direction and you signed the best players and you went on to win and then dominate.

They changed it to make tactics a game changer, the thing is they went too far, now it almost does not matter what players you sign if you do not get the tactics right, the "It's your tactics" actually bothers me a bit now.

While tactics are important they should not be the bee all of what the game is about.

There was a thread where a player was leading 4-1 with 5 minutes to go, he went on to lose 6-4 and was told it was his tactic choices as he did not change his tactics and could not cope with the other team going "Gung-Ho" and that is why he lost 6-4!

In real life we always hear "the manager can only do so much", it seems the game just about demands the manager 'does everything', in that game where the player lost 6-4 the players would not have did 'Exactly' as the manager asked.

There needs to be of course some tactics involved but there has to be a limit and just how much those tactics are followed and how much effect they have in the game.

At the moment there lies the problem.

[Paolo di Canio]

The problem is that before it was all about the players, things were much simpler back then, you basically played a 4-4-2 with arrows going in whatever direction and you signed the best players and you went on to win and then dominate.

They changed it to make tactics a game changer, the thing is they went too far, now it almost does not matter what players you sign if you do not get the tactics right, the "It's your tactics" actually bothers me a bit now.

While tactics are important they should not be the bee all of what the game is about.

There was a thread where a player was leading 4-1 with 5 minutes to go, he went on to lose 6-4 and was told it was his tactic choices as he did not change his tactics and could not cope with the other team going "Gung-Ho" and that is why he lost 6-4!

In real life we always hear "the manager can only do so much", it seems the game just about demands the manager 'does everything', in that game where the player lost 6-4 the players would not have did 'Exactly' as the manager asked.

There needs to be of course some tactics involved but there has to be a limit and just how much those tactics are followed and how much effect they have in the game.

At the moment there lies the problem.

funny thing is that I had the opposite impression. If that very defensive tactic allowed the player to get to 4-1 after about 85', I found it silly that things like complacency brought him to concede 5 goals in the very last minutes. Which actually shows that tactics, unfortunately, don't matter that much. I'd say "they don't matter enough anymore", but that's just my opinion.

[edgar555]

Great work bypassing all the other discussion though.

No problem. Here to help.

[Dagenham_Dave]

One of the biggest things I'd personally like to see fixed in the next ME update is that ridiculous scenario where half your team is standing in an offside position when a free kick is taken, leading to a clear disallowed goal. Fair enough if the defence all push out when the kick is taken, but that never happens. The players all simply stand miles offside waiting for the kick.

[RvN#17]

So I'm testing a tactic out for a friend and picked WBA, tactic did wonders and 9 games before the seasons end I was sitting in the 3rd place with the most scored goals in the league and 4th least conceeded. Then came the last 9 games of the season and out of "stronger teams" I had Chelsea and City away, Tottenham and Liverpool home, other 5 games were against the team that were ranging from 15-20th place on the table and the teams I've beaten already by 3+ goals. Wanna know the score of the last 9 games?

It was 1-4-4, Chelsea and City managed to score each 6 goals against me, that's 12 goals in 2 games, Tottenham and Liverpool were draws, 2-2 and 3-3 each (all of liverpool goals were from set pieces). My only win was against last place Sunderland 1-4, and all the teams from the bottom of the table managed to score 2+ goals against me every single game. I ended up finishing 6th which is fine for WBA but considering my form and players morale I was sure I was gonna end up in the top 4.

[Dr. Hook]

In real life we always hear "the manager can only do so much", it seems the game just about demands the manager 'does everything', in that game where the player lost 6-4 the players would not have did 'Exactly' as the manager asked.

There needs to be of course some tactics involved but there has to be a limit and just how much those tactics are followed and how much effect they have in the game.

At the moment there lies the problem.

funny thing is that I had the opposite impression. If that very defensive tactic allowed the player to get to 4-1 after about 85', I found it silly that things like complacency brought him to concede 5 goals in the very last minutes. Which actually shows that tactics, unfortunately, don't matter that much. I'd say "they don't matter enough anymore", but that's just my opinion.

And those two responses illustrate the problem SI has in pleasing everyone with FM, and the big challenge to strike the right balance. FM does seem to me to be a more systems oriented game than it used to be, but I'd had to have it (to use an argument ad absurdum) be a FIFA game where all you need to do is sign the best players. If you have a world class squad but create a stupid tactic that leave gaps and holes all over the place, it ought to get punished. Right at the moment, I think the game is in the right general place, but with some tweaking needed. I think the players do matter immensely, but you almost have to watch matches in full to see this. Highlights, even comprehensive, will never convey the whole picture, nor will stats. What might be helpful is better feedback. The Ass man feedback is next to worthless, and most of us don't have time in our lives to watch every match in full.

[Svenc]

And those two responses illustrate the problem SI has in pleasing everyone with FM, and the big challenge to strike the right balance. FM does seem to me to be a more systems oriented game than it used to be, but I'd had to have it (to use an argument ad absurdum) be a FIFA game where all you need to do is sign the best players. If you have a world class squad but create a stupid tactic that leave gaps and holes all over the place, it ought to get punished. Right at the moment, I think the game is in the right general place, but with some tweaking needed. I think the players do matter immensely, but you almost have to watch matches in full to see this. Highlights, even comprehensive, will never convey the whole picture, nor will stats. What might be helpful is better feedback. The Ass man feedback is next to worthless, and most of us don't have time in our lives to watch every match in full.

Arguably the last couple iterations have never made it more clear that it is players who can win you trophies despite their manager not being tactical masterstroke (see for instance the inflated dribblings stats at top levels with the very top players averaging up to more than 10 dribbles per game). Set up a completely unbalanced tactics at a world class club, such as a 4-3-3 with the full backs on defend duty and three central midfielders likewise at Chelski, and you will still see Hazard's and Willian's runs and Costa's goalmouth ability wreaking havoc, despite all three up-front never seeing any support and being wholly isolated. It's naturally hard to compare that to real life as clubs don't play that way. However I'd guess that they'd be crowded out far more easily as the opposing team would "notice". The same would happen in an online save against a human player who spots this, but this is an AI. Naturally, you will underperform. But still may perform better than you had expected.

FM can be played in multiple ways and isn't set-up as simplistic. In that it reflects management. For every Guardiola there's a Redknapp performing reasonably well in terms of his club's expectations. Those that were suspicious of the man management aspects have claimed that team talks would completely change their games (when officially they have a minor influence for but the first 10 to 15 minutes after kick-off). And FM's been apparently all about tactics since 2006ish. The majority of FM players have done well in the past, when setting up a tactics was more complicated and could be broken more easily. That's because FM considers a tactics as what it is: There's a reason why IRL it's the better team who wins against the lesser on average. There may be a surprise in a season or two, and certainly in individual matches, as players can be out of form and not be utilized well, and runs of form and injuries can strike hard too. But over the span of a few years, league tables usually reflect wage budgets. The majority of players is decent at transfering players and developing talent, and it's better players who evidently win more headers lose less tackles win more dribbles score more goals that can win you trophies. I've alwas been realistic enough to acknowledge that I didn't beat Mou's Real Madrid in the CL final because of being masterstroke. Not when I had just transfered Neymar, Hazard and Oscar to play alongside the likes of Müller and Robben, players whose match statistics are typically fantastic and consistently so.

FM has become more about tactics insofar as the AI isn't as overly simplistic as it used to be (like setting up a 4-2-4 with every club when chasing a game as its only option). Still tactics is but tactics, and one of its primary functions is to set a positioning framework in which your players operate in. Unless you make major errors such as isolating the forwards (see and commit to that Chelsi test above) or let everyone rush forward (which would be the opposite), I can't see anyone struggling that majorly tactically. It's not that they can't fail too, same as you, but you can let the assistant handle the tactics (as a test,holiday through a season). That said, arguably it's harder to soak up pressure, as brought up by many. Appears to need more of a balancing job than putting up a 4-2-3-1 control with all the "basics" ticked: A full back providing regular support on the flanks, a holding player in midfield as opposed to everyone rushing forward into the box, and a forward that isn't isolated. You don't need to watch matches in full. Watching any attack will do. The way FM has been set up, basic positioning frameworks repeat ad nauseum, i.e. unless a fullback/defend has a PPM that might interfere he will cover every time and not make runs to be a presence in the final third. Equally you won't need to worry about your anchor man ever leaving space behind. Naturally it's best to stay away from extremes such as applying individual instructions to every single player if you don't know what they do. Plus oldish iterations have set unrealistic expectations, like /exploit/ tactics that would draw all player quality moot and create chances no matter what. Until comparably recently, you could completely frustrate the AI by fielding 3 DMs and keeping your full backs behind, as none of its tactics had enough players advancing when attacking to break that down.

There was a thread where a player was leading 4-1 with 5 minutes to go, he went on to lose 6-4 and was told it was his tactic choices as he did not change his tactics and could not cope with the other team going "Gung-Ho" and that is why he lost 6-4!

Seen that too. However, I'd be careful to judge that based on such feedback. From the match stats it was apparent that his opponent was already over him all match. Most importantly he dropped all off, and as he never had uploaded the game, it was impossible to tell what was going on. There are a couple of options in the game that can completely destroy your team's shape when defending, making it easy for a team of school boys to score against you, such as specific marking jobs if applied riskily. This match looked very very curious, but as no further feedback was provided as what to actually was going on, it's not the best of a yardstick. :-)

[andyt365]

far far far far far far far toooooooo many injuries during games. Really unplayable.

[Dagenham_Dave]

far far far far far far far toooooooo many injuries during games. Really unplayable.

I have no injuries at all in my 25-man squad, and have gone the last 6 games without having to take someone off injured. Solid rotation, and attention to detail on a player's match fitness levels are the key. There's luck involved as well of course.

[Dagenham_Dave]

...player taken off injured in the very next game.

[roykela]

Just had a player being furious about me not keeping my promise to him, which was offering him a new contract.

I offered him several contracts which he, or his agent, declined every single time.

Why is he upset with me? He had his chance several times and i did keep my promise by offering him a new contract.

No idea if it's working as intended or not but it sure doesn't seem right.

And why can't i say that in my conversation with him?

The alternatives offered aren't anywhere close to what i want to say to him;

like i did offer you a contract several times but you (or your agent) declined every single time.

Or something along those lines.

[akkm]

I think its fair to say despite different variations of the theme and a variety of interpretations of peoples experiences that the bottom line is tactics are are as good as they've been but representation/depiction of players attributes is not.

In terms of variety and improved sensitivity to making changes and actually seeing them feed through on the pitch its fantastic. There is a rich tactical framework there to allow your team to play the way you want them to with more variety in sequences/passages of play than ever before in this years version. Definitely silly tactical set ups should be punished and indeed do but perhaps its overpowered punishment at times but at same time tactical adjustments will help. Certain things could be improved/tweaked there in terms of deep defending perhaps not being as effective in theory as it should at times and high line attacking play being far too effective and doesn't get punished as it should but the latter is finishing nerfed. Broadly speaking though tactics are in a very good place and its tweaks to this rather than anything else required.

The representation of player attributes is what needs most work. Close control/dribbling/agility are all poor and restrictive to some very rich and enjoyable quality play happening. When I look at FM12 and see players dribbling/close control and technical skills they are vastly superior to what you see in current version which I find very disappointing and really holds back from watching match and going...wow...wow wow wow...everything else is more or less in place now but that. In FM12 the differences of playing technical skills were so obvious between eg and anchor man and a trequartista and also higher level leagues Vs lower level leagues.

In current engine it looks amateurish at times watching players turn and try and dribble laterally and at angles...dribbling looks ok going forward but then it seems to be driven/happen through spurts of pace rather than skill itself. Players first touch can be downright appalling to see and passing and guile of players is just not up to scratch compared to the rest of the engine. In terms of productivity stats of dribbles/passes etc yes the numbers are there but how they are represented is simply not good enough. Watch first touch/guile/agility/dribbling technique in FM12 and it light years ahead...watch all of those in current engine and they look poor. If all these in current engine were to level of FM12 then really you'd have to see rewrite has got quite close to its potential. The poor first touch/agility/guile/passing is not simply graphical representation either not being as good as they should be representative of statistical attributes translates to the ball getting turned over more than it should for certain players and also moves break down more than they should where players would have ability to hold onto ball and feed the ball through in tighter spots and use their technique to get out certain situationswhen being pressured etc.

I've seen the feeble and aptly transparent suggestion (lol) that players transparency helped with dribbling in FM12 and of course it did at times but really that's just a red herring as the first touch/agility/dribbling technique was so much better in FM12...period...without having to ghost past players as a last resort. Currently all that is so weak that even if players did ghost through other players now the first touch/agility/dribbling technique would remain poor in itself anyway.

Improvement in this is really the key to taking the engine to another level again and would be great if it could happen for next update.

[roykela]

That is a known issue, if you have a save before the promise end date there is a bug thread that you can add to.

Alright. I'll see what i can dig up

[bigbeezer]

Lads,

if there is an update after the jan transfer window, will the players have been altered as well so that the in form players in leagues will be playing well? or is it just transfers that get done?

cheers

[ianscousemac]

Hoping the next patch sorts out the defending and reduces the amount of goals. Far too easy to score at the moment and any manager will tell you its the hardest part of football. I also find my defenders get fairly low ratings compared to other players. Still a good game though.

[mcb1996]

Where the researcher feels it is justified they will change a player's attributes for the updated database.

Will publish 15.2.2 or won't?