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Neil Brock

Official Football Manager 2015 Feedback Thread 15.2.1

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All this talk? The talk on this page has been about over achieving with poor teams.

Just because right now i am using txt only, doesnt mean i have done since day one, or will do for the rest of FM15. I've seen plenty of this ME, seasons and seasons of it. I was merely pointing out that the 3D is not vital to the game, its just another tool that can be used.

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Because people have different styles of play and different views of what is important. People have different performance levels on their PC's. Loads of different reasons. Your attitude towards anyone who doesn't do what you do is pretty sucky. I suspect you vote UKIP. If you're old enough to vote.

HAHAHA If anyone is old enough to vote (UKIP or otherwise) don't waste your time... it just legitamizes the current western dictatorships "democracies". Sorry I know this is off-topic ut if people are going to talk about voting and politics they better have a clue ;)

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Well, then, all this talk about the match engine is pointless, if you don't even bother to look at it

He is looking at it. Just a different way from you. If you watch 2d or even text commentary, you're still experiencing the match engine.

3D is just another way of watching it.

Many of the match engine gripes aren't really match engine errors at all, they are animation errors caused by having such a basic 3D interface. You would see far fewer ME complaints on here if the best it got graphically was the dots. Thiis has been especially noticeable since they introduced the 'close cam' option last year, because now you can see all the graphical imperfections close up.

I much prefer watching in 2D, but again I'm old school.

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HAHAHA If anyone is old enough to vote (UKIP or otherwise) don't waste your time... it just legitamizes the current western dictatorships "democracies". Sorry I know this is off-topic ut if people are going to talk about voting and politics they better have a clue ;)

Mind how you go with that tinfoil hat on.

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I would argue i know more about whats going on with my team from playing with txt and heaps of stats than i do when im watching nothing more than the 3D. I actually pay more attention to the game, rather than the high profile incidents in the game right now.

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Well, then, all this talk about the match engine is pointless, if you don't even bother to look at it... To me, it's the most important part. Everything else - training, scouting, youth development, press conferences blablabla - it's all secondary, the match is what it is all about, and I want that part to be as good as possible.

Except that the Match Engine is nothing to do with the visuals, 2D or 3D or otherwise. Completely separate entities, with one feeding into the other. So which is the most important then? The substance or the window-dressing?

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As far as I know it only really affected the 2016/17 final. It's definitely not every year.

I can officially say that it affected the 2024/2025 Champ League final... although I made the final two years prior and I am 99.9% sure that the 2022/2023 Champ League final was not an issue. Since I only made it to the final twice I am unsure but will check at the end of the current season (even if I dont make it as I can check the squads for the teams whio are in the final and report back here).

Hoping that this is only an issue every so often and every year.

On a side note I have noticed a lot of comments on difficulty recently. Now I have been playing FM games for around 10years or maybe a little more and I am VERY tactical in my style... really reading a lot about tactics in real life and for FM and make a lot of tactical instractions per player and as a group (basically without sounding big-headed I would say I am pretty good at the game) BUT it does feel like the game is fairly easy (at least compared to previous games) HOWEVER I have only ever coached in Spain rising from Segunda B devision all the way to Liga BBVA and so my point is in Spain the top league especially seems very easy for the big teams which for the past 4/5 seasons on my game has been Barcelona, Real Madrid and my team Coruxo.

Maybe when I move to Serie A or the Premiership the difficulty will seem harder. Just a thought ;)

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Maybe when I move to Serie A or the Premiership the difficulty will seem harder.

Not if you go Crystal Palace, apparently...

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I think that incidence of regional and especially local media sources in press conferences should be higher in comparison to national media sources particularly when the reporting involves lower league clubs.

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Advance playmakers and attacking mids with an attack duty no longer get back to defend. It makes playing a narrow 4-2-3-1 nigh on impossible, as you either sacrifice all attacking intent with support duties, or leave your central midfield and/or wings horribly exposed if you choose to attack.

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Mind how you go with that tinfoil hat on.

Hah, don't worry English Dave... Im not about to let big brother scan my brain waves lol

Not if you go Crystal Palace, apparently...

Well I doubt I will, afterall I will be looking for a new challenge when I FINALLY decide to leave Coruxo (leaving the first club is always the hardest), and not a sure-fire winner with Crystal Palace. To be honest Im quite looking forward to maybe taking over AC Milan (my favourite team) especially because since the start of the game the Rossoneri have been performing VERP POORLY in Serie A, coming close to relegation a couple of times.

I hope it turns out better for Milan IRL :)

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Match engine is awful, still sucks, by the way just like the older versions. Like, goalkeepers leaving the goal to chase a ball on the throw line frequently, players moving in wrong directions in a very bizarre way, players missing the goal in front of the goal...

but as I am a huge FM fan i still love the game. BUT, S. I. should fix this match engine, seriously, its 2015 and the a. i. still sucks? common

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Advance playmakers and attacking mids with an attack duty no longer get back to defend. It makes playing a narrow 4-2-3-1 nigh on impossible, as you either sacrifice all attacking intent with support duties, or leave your central midfield and/or wings horribly exposed if you choose to attack.

You dont want an attacking advanced playmaker dropping back to defend, if you want that put him on support instead.

I play a narrow 4231 with an attacking advanced playmaker, and i dont have issues in the games where its the right set up, as long as you have cover behind him in the first place, but it doesnt work for every game where i need more midfield cover.

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I am enjoying the game on the whole post patch. AI scores however are a little concerning. In the opening 7 games of the season here are a few of the AI v AI results that have occured,

(note Argentina Premier Division)

3x 4-3

1x 4-4

1x 5-2

1x 5-3

1x 6-1

1x 6-2

2x 6-5

1x 7-0

2x 7-3

Thats from just the opening 7 games of the season. Any ideas why so many? Obviously the odd thumping or high score game is expected but for short a time period that is very excessive.

EDIT

Brief example, this is the latest round of fixtures.

izangj.jpg

add an 8-1 to that list.

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Except that the Match Engine is nothing to do with the visuals, 2D or 3D or otherwise. Completely separate entities, with one feeding into the other. So which is the most important then? The substance or the window-dressing?

They are both equally important, it is a false dichotomy to claim that we have to pick one or the other ('both' being the third, preferable option). If you bring in players, setup tactics, do the whole thing that you do, and then not watch the football itself, you're basically skipping the 'football' part of 'Football Manager'. Maybe you'd rather play 'Stats Manager 2015'? Or just 'Manager 2014'? Surely laying back and watching your team play football (cause, you know, it's FOOTBALL Manager) is what the game is all about? Well, to me is is. If you just want to have the best stats possible in your 'game', then knock yourself out.

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Match engine is awful, still sucks, by the way just like the older versions. Like, goalkeepers leaving the goal to chase a ball on the throw line frequently, players moving in wrong directions in a very bizarre way, players missing the goal in front of the goal...

but as I am a huge FM fan i still love the game. BUT, S. I. should fix this match engine, seriously, its 2015 and the a. i. still sucks? common

Please have a scan through all the threads in the section linked below, and consider how to modify your posting style for future posts:

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/37-House-Rules-amp-Forum-Guidelines

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The comments about the 4-2-3-1 Denmark and some players dominating so much with it (naturally also combined with a sufficient role and duty combination) make me wonder. I think it was brought up by Sussex Hammer already previously, but doing the opposite, applying a more cautious mentality and a corresponding basic shape -- depending on the formation purely clicking "defensive" invites all the pressure in the world. I've seen EPL sides giving Swiss second tier teams all the time and space in the world as teams already drop real deep and early when merely opting for a defensive mentality. From my experience, unless you want to get hammered with two dozen shots+ even against weaker teams, you occasionally are forced to off-set that by encouraging a higher d-line. In a sense it is then easier to produce a proactive tactics as is the opposite, as the latter appears very sensitive. Couple that with human players most traditionally always looking for a tactics that dominates statistically, namely position and shots (they'd rarely if ever set up a reactive tactics, never to rarely see a match in which they get few shots but still win and conclude that the AI would be better at finishing)... And I wonder about the exact settings an AI would pick if it sees itself as an underdog (likely similar settings that result in retreating very early and dropping all deep).

Naturally this would also affect the matches in which one sides sees that many shots. The one uses a tactics that is pushing forward, whilst the defensive ones are already fairly sensitive even when not seeing further encouragements to drop even deeper, etc. All I can tell 100% is that this used to be different for at least FM 2012, as even going contain and standing all off and dropping deep didn't invite this occasionally ridiculous pressure by definition (even though players weren't marked as efficiently due to no collision avoidance and the attackers being able to nullify their markers altogether off the ball on occasion). But then naturally tactical options have been tweaked and made more or less sensible throughout the years always. This wouldn't be a first. Such options appear very sensitive in this one though.

Regarding Sussex' and superfi's observation concerning overlaps, not seeing this personally. FBs or WBs pretty much get involved as soon as possible and make forward movements off the ball when this is applied, provided there is space in front of them anyways. This could however be also be influenced by personal positioning traits of the player you pick (such as a "never gets forward" or "arrives late..." PPM).

Great post this. I have never had any success in any FM with either defensive or counter tactics. Obviously it can be done because the likes of Cleon have shown it can be done easily but it must be my set ups that let me down. What is frustrating though is that at times even on a standard or attacking mentality my team will hit a team on the break and score a perfect counter attack goal and yet I can't replicate it for the next fixture because "it just happened" rather than me making it happen.

Perfect example was when I was two up in one game and changed to a contain strategy and just lowered the defensive line but left pressing high. A DM nicked the ball, quick pass to other DM, another quick pass to my AM who passed wide to the running full back who delivered a peach of a cross to my forwards head to make it 3-0. Next game I was away so just adopted that set up and was camped in my half with the opposition just bombarding me. It was like the Alamo. That's the frustration with the game at times, something great happens but it seems impossible at times to replicate it.

I generally play with pressing and a higher line because I concede less that way than trying to play deeper as the likes of Hazard just jink straight through the middle.

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Anyone else finding it very hard to defend corners? The near post seems to always be exposed no matter how I arrange players on the set piece generator or set men on the posts.

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Well, then, all this talk about the match engine is pointless, if you don't even bother to look at it... To me, it's the most important part. Everything else - training, scouting, youth development, press conferences blablabla - it's all secondary, the match is what it is all about, and I want that part to be as good as possible.

3d is different to talking about the me. I couldn't give a toss about 3d. I play in 2d Classic and always will. Of course I still want a great me.

Why are people still dissing the way I choose to play MY game? Wtf is this about?

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Perfect example was when I was two up in one game and changed to a contain strategy and just lowered the defensive line but left pressing high. A DM nicked the ball, quick pass to other DM, another quick pass to my AM who passed wide to the running full back who delivered a peach of a cross to my forwards head to make it 3-0. Next game I was away so just adopted that set up and was camped in my half with the opposition just bombarding me. It was like the Alamo. That's the frustration with the game at times, something great happens but it seems impossible at times to replicate it.

I generally play with pressing and a higher line because I concede less that way than trying to play deeper as the likes of Hazard just jink straight through the middle.

I can back that up 100%, and i know its me more than the game. A few weeks back i went a goal up away to a big team against the run of play, was getting pulled apart a bit so set the team up on counter, with a flat 5 across the middle with a few different instructions and completely stifled the opposition and they didnt get another clear chance, but for the life of me i cannot set it up right again, each time i start with it away to big teams i get ripped to pieces and just constantly invite attacks. Thats the frustrating thing, as you say Cleon and others have done it, but i just can never get it constant. A few games here and there it works, probably because the ai goes to throwing the sink at me and the team handles it well but out with that i find i have to attack, usually with a high line to be more solid, anything else just invites huge amounts of pressure.

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Anyone else finding it very hard to defend corners? The near post seems to always be exposed no matter how I arrange players on the set piece generator or set men on the posts.

Set a few to zonal mark the six yard box, should help a great deal.

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They are both equally important, it is a false dichotomy to claim that we have to pick one or the other ('both' being the third, preferable option). If you bring in players, setup tactics, do the whole thing that you do, and then not watch the football itself, you're basically skipping the 'football' part of 'Football Manager'. Maybe you'd rather play 'Stats Manager 2015'? Or just 'Manager 2014'? Surely laying back and watching your team play football (cause, you know, it's FOOTBALL Manager) is what the game is all about? Well, to me is is. If you just want to have the best stats possible in your 'game', then knock yourself out.

How long do you think this game has been on the go for? In relative speaking the 3d is new, we had football manager and championship manager long before the 3d animation was even spoke about. Infact i remember a lot being against it when it was first mentioned. The 3d is nice for watching goals, and it can be enjoyable for watching games, but not watching it doesnt take away the fact your still managing a football team. Your not skipping any of the football part, far from it, your just not using one of the tools the game has.

FM or Champ has and will always be about the stats, the whole game is a huge database of stats, its the single most important thing in the game. The 3d matches are just a nice addition to the huge amounts of data you work your way through.

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.

So 7 places higher than predicted is solid over achievement without entering into the realms of fantasy as far as i'm concerned.

There's a difference in here between that and the Crystal Palace one in terms of results, and I agree, given a good run why wouldn't a mediocre team be able to outperform much more expensive teams once in a while? Talking about Westham, this season so far there are teams like Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool all trailing behind who pay multiple times the wages to players multiple times as prolific and could be all considered as underachievers to various degrees. For every team underachieving, there will be another waiting to fill the spot, naturally. However, judging by the opening post in the thread as well as the replies this is in nature similar to the Palace tactics: It would be so dominating you'd expect this to work with smaller teams too just like that and every season (and it did just that without adjustments). The outset is thus samey, even though the intent might not have been the same, and the results may vary: Take this, plug this in and you're likely en route to overachieve quite a chunk, pretty much no matter the team. That's one of the reasons I brought it up, not as a criticism per se, but as an example that this still works. I don't mind that it's possible to expose weak areas in defending or in the AI's tactics and lack of sophistication in its choices, "beating or tricking the game", so to speak. I don't even mind people downloading and playing in such a way, it's a game, goddamnit. Seeing their local pub teams beating the world beaters is a football fantasy that for many is the sole reason they play FM, and some want to speed things up a little. It's also a challenge and a great achievement in and on itself to find such a one-fits-all setting that tends to do wonders with almost any team no matter what and season. Very well done! No reason to argue. Still coming in here, copying such or citing it as a proof for a game far too easy would appear a little absurd though (not directed at you, mind).

In 1993 when SC Freiburg were promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time, they prompted a puzzle for half a league by employing zonal marking in a footballing culture that was still used to man marking and a spare man at the back, the libero from very bottom to the very top. By the time the team had settled into the league, they almost beat Dortmund to the title a season later, slotting four goals against Bayern, amongst a few other feats. Something they have never repeated since, and when their tactical schemes were caught out, it was their scouting and their then new and fantastic academy standard who'd keep them afloat despite having a much smaller budget than anybody. It's kind of like that with tactics like this, unless some (positional) PPMs lessen their prowess, they pose a puzzle almost regardless of context (player quality and type, and opposition), just for being a tactics, and just need be slotted in. Except opponent's adapting however, it's a loop that never ends rather than getting caught out. A lot of subtleties of the game go straight out of the window, naturally, as there's something inside that will get additional bonus points and goals no matter what (it's often a positional/marking thing). Would be interesting to see how in an MMO environement such as FM Live's opponents would cope or if it's down to inherent issues within the match engine routines that no tactical adjustment would cope with. But naturally an offline AI will never be up to that par, and realistically there will always be such pre-set tactics that just need be slotted in for as long as SI won't abandon player choice and creativity and making the core of every tactics same same to an extent (which would result in a pretty boring game). :)

SI might take a look at the thread linked to above though, the Palace guy went into the EPL season with 20 wins straight. :D

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I think the way 2d could be improved, despite playing in 3d'm totally fan of the 2d, fm game a long time and have many friends who like the way 2d, because it is much better to observe the tactical formation, is a way to imagine what is happening, something nostalgic and fun!

Regarding the ease of the game, I believe that much is the lack of AI intelligence, hire a few quality players do bad tactics and mainly favoring economic growth of smaller teams.

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3d is different to talking about the me. I couldn't give a toss about 3d. I play in 2d Classic and always will. Of course I still want a great me.

Why are people still dissing the way I choose to play MY game? Wtf is this about?

I am not dissing anyone, play any way you like.

How long do you think this game has been on the go for? In relative speaking the 3d is new, we had football manager and championship manager long before the 3d animation was even spoke about. Infact i remember a lot being against it when it was first mentioned. The 3d is nice for watching goals, and it can be enjoyable for watching games, but not watching it doesnt take away the fact your still managing a football team. Your not skipping any of the football part, far from it, your just not using one of the tools the game has.

FM or Champ has and will always be about the stats, the whole game is a huge database of stats, its the single most important thing in the game. The 3d matches are just a nice addition to the huge amounts of data you work your way through.

I've been around since Championship Manager times, so yes, I too am "old school" or whatever. The point is, I love to setup a match and then watch, yes WATCH it, not watch the stats, not look at dots, but watch the match, I like watching football. It is not a "tool", it is the very thing this is all about, the football match. Stats, reports and the likes are the tools, the match itsef is the whole point of doing all this.

Anyway, let's leave it at that. We can agree to disagree what we feel the most important part of the game is :)

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I've been around since Championship Manager times, so yes, I too am "old school" or whatever. The point is, I love to setup a match and then watch, yes WATCH it, not watch the stats, not look at dots, but watch the match, I like watching football. It is not a "tool", it is the very thing this is all about, the football match. Stats, reports and the likes are the tools, the match itsef is the whole point of doing all this.

Anyway, let's leave it at that. We can agree to disagree what we feel the most important part of the game is :)

I agree totally. The match for me through the eyes of the TV camera is what I play for and I watch through the eyes of a fan - not just a FM Manager. I love watching goals scored and seeing my Hammers in the top half of the table. It's an escape from the usual reality of a season against relegation, bar this season IRL of course!!

On the point of the Hammers doing well IRL I have noticed whilst attending this year that Big Sam remains in his seat a vast majority of the time, as does his Assistant which suggests that very few in match changes are required when things are going well and only two formations played all season as well so real life suggests that you don't have to chop and change to have success!! Mind you we will probably come down with the Christmas decorations as per usual!!

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Well, then, all this talk about the match engine is pointless, if you don't even bother to look at it... To me, it's the most important part. Everything else - training, scouting, youth development, press conferences blablabla - it's all secondary, the match is what it is all about, and I want that part to be as good as possible.

But this is the point- the match engine is an important part. The graphical representation of it is not, because it is exactly the same whether you have photorealistic graphics or 2D dots or just text commentary. They're two different things. Improving the ME to make it work as realistically as it can is obviously very important- the goal here is to simulate how football matches play out in the real world, with actions and decisions that are realistic.

Making it look pretty is much, much further down the list of priorities. FIFA Manager is a fine comparison- until they stopped making it, it looked (hell, it still looks) much better than FM on the match day. But it plays like absolute arse.

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But this is the point- the match engine is an important part. The graphical representation of it is not, because it is exactly the same whether you have photorealistic graphics or 2D dots or just text commentary. They're two different things. Improving the ME to make it work as realistically as it can is obviously very important- the goal here is to simulate how football matches play out in the real world, with actions and decisions that are realistic.

Making it look pretty is much, much further down the list of priorities. FIFA Manager is a fine comparison- until they stopped making it, it looked (hell, it still looks) much better than FM on the match day. But it plays like absolute arse.

I could not disagree more. How is reading the match engine better or the same as watching it? I'm sorry, but that does not make any sense to me. In FM14, I had Januzaj score one of the best goals I've ever seen, a volley from 25 yards, into the top corner. We had a corner and he was outside of area and Rooney sent him the ball and he kicked it first time, scored an amazing goal. I would have missed that moment both in 2D and in text mode. Nothing compares to seeing it with your own eyes as it happens (not even the replay, before someone mentions that :)).

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I agree totally. The match for me through the eyes of the TV camera is what I play for and I watch through the eyes of a fan - not just a FM Manager. I love watching goals scored and seeing my Hammers in the top half of the table. It's an escape from the usual reality of a season against relegation, bar this season IRL of course!!

On the point of the Hammers doing well IRL I have noticed whilst attending this year that Big Sam remains in his seat a vast majority of the time, as does his Assistant which suggests that very few in match changes are required when things are going well and only two formations played all season as well so real life suggests that you don't have to chop and change to have success!! Mind you we will probably come down with the Christmas decorations as per usual!!

There isnt one way to play the game, much like there isn't one way to manage. And not changing formations doesn't mean you're not making changes. Not every change need be drastic.

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Just clinched promotion with four games to go, and now I've to hold a team meeting to encourage them to get the one point they need for, er, promotion.

Baffling.

EDIT - The pre-match interviews and team talks have all centred around us getting this mythical one point we need, despite being 14 points clear of third with 4 games left, and having the big 'P' next to our name on the league table.

:lol:

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A few observations on recent comments.

Unfortunately the current Match Engine is funneling a lot of people in the same direction in terms of tactics.

Anyone diligently testing different tactical approaches will ultimately end up arriving at the same conclusion namely; attacking, high pressing, high line, aggressive tactics consistently yield better results than containing, countering, defensive set ups.

Even with weaker teams, even when playing away from home when such an approach really shouldn't work.

So you end up with a one dimensional, tactically barren game.

However, this idea that people are winning the Premier League with Crystal Palace in season 1 is a myth. One person on one forum claimed this, no one has been able to replicate this result independently.

Season 2 onwards might be a different matter as word quickly gets around the forums as to what great players can bought at a good price and if you're that way inclined you can just follow that advice and quickly build a very strong team. Not a lot you can do about that.

Sorry to say that but despite the fact that the football displayed looks better than older versions, i just can realize after some different saves in different leagues and levels that this years ME is easier to exploit and very weak AI interactions.

Another fun fact that Crystal Palace guy isn`t a myth and his tactic are the reason i lost my motivation to start a long time save and i am waiting for the next patches to see if it get any better.

I tried the tactic he was using at his save with Crystal Palace and i don`t have any problems winning leagues and get to the top in no time, my last save was York City from league 2 and i stopped playing the save in 2017 leading Championship with 10 points in december without signing world beaters just decent players for the leagues i played. Most of the signings on a free transfer!

I didn`t changed anything and left his tactics untouched for the whole save and AI teams never adapted to it, first season 2nd and promotion, second season 2nd and promotion and third season with everything in place is like autopilot and leading championship without any problems. The only thing i changed during games was mentality between attack, control and counter when i was leading by 2 or more.

Oh and i didn`t gave me to big training badges and experience either because some where saying that it is to easy with to high training badges and past experience, i took the recommendation for the league i started.

I really can`t understand why some people have problems getting their teams winning, with my own tactics i could go up with ease but the tactics from that crystal palace dude really feels like cheating and my results with where insane. You can try it for yourself if you don`t believe load up his tactic and keep things very simple and straight and don`t complicate things or constantly change something to not interfere with your team blending to much. I guarantee you will overachieve every single year if you stick with that simple instructions, and it shouldn`t be like this.

I can`t imagine not playing a football manager game anymore, but there is no point playing a version where i know previously without even looking into my opponents tactics or teams, what i have to change to guaranteed wins and it get worse when i know that by the time i got every thing in place it is really just watching them play and change players if they get to old.

If this version stays like this i go back to 14 and wait for future versions to hopefully get it in place.

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I generally play with pressing and a higher line because I concede less that way than trying to play deeper as the likes of Hazard just jink straight through the middle.

Hazard is a very special case, as he consistently is one of the top dribblers in the league, if not THE top dribbler, unless a human takes over and wrecks his abililty by fielding him out of position or in a role that won't see him making that many runs. :D That said, though I had posted the shot of an Arsenal team of mine closing out like every single game, this was as described pretty much a possession based catenaccio, just playing keep-ball and not venturing forward. As a result, there weren't many shots or much action on either end of the pitch. I haven't managed much to keep that many clean sheets when playing a typical defensive game here either. At the moment I'm testing this with Stoke, not the best of teams, and a lot of opponents will look to surge forward, but the matches on occasion make me facepalm.

It is the very nature of football that if you are reasonablish able to keep an opponent at bay during open play, the percentage of goals from set pieces in the overall number of goals you concede will go up. Additionally from experience and my Arsenal experiment above, you will always have a number of shots going off from set piece situations, be it direct free kicks, corners, etc. in any match, no matter how drab (and those were all drab matches on purpose). First competitive matches of the season so far: West Brom away (1-2): They had 15 shots, 8 on target, which is very decent, however both goals came from set pieces. A direct free kick and a corner kick to the near post to Samaras. Arsenal at home (1-2): They had 15 shots, 4 on target, the winning goals was a penalty caused by Arnautovic, who I had subbed into the match (happens). Everton away (0-5): Didn't manage to close them out this time, 22 shots, 11 on target, however 3 goals including the opener in the 3rd minute came from corners, in fact the first three goals were all corners (including a near-post to a completely unmarked Eto'o once), and once you're down that much, you're more prone to just collapse (see the player's body language of both your own players, who typically takes a nose dive, unless there's someone who feels determined to dig in; as well as the oppositions', who typically sees a lift unless there's somebody who's prone to become complacent). QPR home (1-3): 13 shots, 6 on target, two goals conceded from near-post corners (player in acres of space, again), one from a throw-in at the height of my box.

That's 12 goals conceded in total in four games, 10 from set pieces (the throw ins plus the peno included), 7 from corners. It must be noted that due to my unoptimized tactics likely too, I had conceded about 10 corners on average per match, whilst my own team had half of that on average (but then naturally by employing a more defensive mentality you're already encouraging to be pinned back that tad more). Still that's a huge conversion rate so far: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/jun/17/joy-of-six-goals-corner-kicks Even by the high standards set by Germany at this World Cup (which is the rate over seven matches in total, likewise not a very huge sample): http://infostradalive.com/2014/07/13/analyse-this-data-report-germany-v-argentina/ So far I was never forced to look at the standard set-piece instructions by default unless I deliberately wanted to tweak them, but if they ain't the cause it looks insanely risky, or as mentioned at least much harder in comparison to previous iterations to even try and play a more cautious game and invite the opponent into your own half/third. I'm sure there is a workaround, however from my experience there has never been a need for such. Naturally, historically the AI set piece routines had been rather abysmal and were only really tweaked by about FM 2012ish, whilst human players would all be all too readily apply their corner-exploit routines. Which in a very low scoring game such as football gave them a huge advantage. Each goal carries significant weight not only because of the mental impact FM tries to simulate too (again, body language/motivation), but also because they change an opponent's tactical approach often, for the AI anyways (corner goal and the AI behind= it being more open, it being more open= heightened opportunity to get another in on the break rather than having to outplay it, getting another in on the break= game over).

edit: Next match away to Burnley: Corner Burnley 2nd in total, near-post to Ings, 1-0. Duh. Eleven games in, this has slowed down a little. Another corner goal in similar fashion cost us the win against Palace, but we've managed to climb the table a little and the conversion rate isn't quite as silly. However it is notable that this happened to none of the AI times quite as much. Usually I'd say it's my tactics, since looking through statistics from other teams, we appear comfortably the team conceding the most corners, as argued, about ten on average, perhaps slightly more. However such a conversion rate would still be a tad off. Does the AI apply corner routines for defending that differ from the defaults? That said, hope the game patched properly, I'm on mev1541 since the last update occured.

Q2iYaJJ.jpg

That said, if this had been the AI you would have claimed it to be a bloody son of a cheating beep, the first goal was the first shot on target (a dfk), upon which half the liverpool squad reacted furious or frustrated, the second came off a counter from our nemesis, a corner taken against us (at that time, it was also the second shot on target). A week prior we sneaked in two of the little chances we got at Old Trafford, but they scored three, so... Personally I've always found it possible to go both ways, dominating possession and taking the game to your opponent as well as the opposite, provided you had the side and opponent. It just seems riskier to do the latter by default in this one, and that is not due to open play situations. However claiming the AI to be better at finishing or gaining an unfair advantage is a bit silly if all your tactics is doing is dominating possession and shots on average by default. The majority of matches you lose are likely to be ones that you had dominated statistically by the very nature of your tactics. Just in case anybody's still reading to whom such may still concern.

cDrHf7l.jpg

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Set a few to zonal mark the six yard box, should help a great deal.

Unfortunately not for low corners, as the near post defender doesn't react and there is heaps of space around the penalty spot for a volley. Comfortably the most common corner goal I concede.

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Enjoying the game so far, but I have some concerns regarding ME.

I'm playing on attacking mentality, but when I switch to defend/contain, and add shouts like take a breather, waste time, play even safer, with the usual retaing possession I always use, I would expect my players to play simple passes, most of them being backward passes. Yet, they tend to go forward and loosing the ball. You know when winger wastes time in last minutes, when he goes to the opponent corner flag, and just try to keep the ball. There is nothing like that in FM, the winger just crosses as early as he can.

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Sorry to say that but despite the fact that the football displayed looks better than older versions, i just can realize after some different saves in different leagues and levels that this years ME is easier to exploit and very weak AI interactions.

Another fun fact that Crystal Palace guy isn`t a myth and his tactic are the reason i lost my motivation to start a long time save and i am waiting for the next patches to see if it get any better.

I tried the tactic he was using at his save with Crystal Palace and i don`t have any problems winning leagues and get to the top in no time, my last save was York City from league 2 and i stopped playing the save in 2017 leading Championship with 10 points in december without signing world beaters just decent players for the leagues i played. Most of the signings on a free transfer!

I didn`t changed anything and left his tactics untouched for the whole save and AI teams never adapted to it, first season 2nd and promotion, second season 2nd and promotion and third season with everything in place is like autopilot and leading championship without any problems. The only thing i changed during games was mentality between attack, control and counter when i was leading by 2 or more.

Oh and i didn`t gave me to big training badges and experience either because some where saying that it is to easy with to high training badges and past experience, i took the recommendation for the league i started.

I really can`t understand why some people have problems getting their teams winning, with my own tactics i could go up with ease but the tactics from that crystal palace dude really feels like cheating and my results with where insane. You can try it for yourself if you don`t believe load up his tactic and keep things very simple and straight and don`t complicate things or constantly change something to not interfere with your team blending to much. I guarantee you will overachieve every single year if you stick with that simple instructions, and it shouldn`t be like this.

I can`t imagine not playing a football manager game anymore, but there is no point playing a version where i know previously without even looking into my opponents tactics or teams, what i have to change to guaranteed wins and it get worse when i know that by the time i got every thing in place it is really just watching them play and change players if they get to old.

If this version stays like this i go back to 14 and wait for future versions to hopefully get it in place.

How did you get the tactic? Can the rest of us see this, as well, it is quite an achievement, that?

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Enjoying the game so far, but I have some concerns regarding ME.

I'm playing on attacking mentality, but when I switch to defend/contain, and add shouts like take a breather, waste time, play even safer, with the usual retaing possession I always use, I would expect my players to play simple passes, most of them being backward passes. Yet, they tend to go forward and loosing the ball. You know when winger wastes time in last minutes, when he goes to the opponent corner flag, and just try to keep the ball. There is nothing like that in FM, the winger just crosses as early as he can.

Do you keep your winger on 'attack' duty? Also, do you have player instructions that would contradict with a more containing strategy?

I use my third tactic slot for an ultra defensive, contain tactic. I used to spend ages going through my players, altering their PI's when trying to close a game out, now if that needs done, I simply switch the tactic over. It works more often than it doesn't.

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How did you get the tactic? Can the rest of us see this, as well, it is quite an achievement, that?

As soon as i saw the screen they posted i believe that they are talking about a tactic from the user lok1to or lokito.

Just look at the fmbase forums for a 3-1-4-2 thread from lokito

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As soon as i saw the screen they posted i believe that they are talking about a tactic from the user lok1to or lokito.

Just look at the fmbase forums for a 3-1-4-2 thread from lokito

Got it, thanks :) Off to see if it really is as good as the screenshots show :)

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Do you keep your winger on 'attack' duty? Also, do you have player instructions that would contradict with a more containing strategy?

I use my third tactic slot for an ultra defensive, contain tactic. I used to spend ages going through my players, altering their PI's when trying to close a game out, now if that needs done, I simply switch the tactic over. It works more often than it doesn't.

I only use a few PI's, like shoot less often and mark tighter, so don't think that's the problem. Wingers stay on attack duty, so that might be it. But I don't know why my midfielders who have automatic duty keep spreading passes forward, instead to just pass to the defenders who are unmarked and not closed down.

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ScreenShot2014-12-24at154405_zps9c2fa059.png

ScreenShot2014-12-24at154412_zps6a15c9f7.png

This is where the interactions get a little hazy, IMO. Junior came to me, saying he wasn't getting game time (as a backup status player), so I said we were in great form (top of the league) and I didn't want to disrupt the team.

The game in question was a cup game against non-league minnows. So I put in 9 youth team members in the first XI and Junior. Youth team runs out 7-0 winners. Team (two players) revolt, saying I'd gone back on my decision.. Surely, it could be explained that it was a nothing game and I wanted to save the usual first XI for the league??

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So I got approached by Gyifi Sigurdsson about a desire to a new challenge, I agree to let him go as he is old and just a back up in my West Ham team. Then I transfer list him and a day later i get told I have "More time to keep Sigurdsson promise" then a day later "Gfiyi Sigurdsson unhappy promise not kept". This is in December so it's not like I could have sold him, anyway. Really annoying.

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So I got approached by Gyifi Sigurdsson about a desire to a new challenge, I agree to let him go as he is old and just a back up in my West Ham team. Then I transfer list him and a day later i get told I have "More time to keep Sigurdsson promise" then a day later "Gfiyi Sigurdsson unhappy promise not kept". This is in December so it's not like I could have sold him, anyway. Really annoying.

Did you promise to sell him in the net window or did you just promise to let him go, if it was the later, then maybe that's why he's unhappy as he was expecting to be released from his contract.

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Cut out the sniping at each other, it's even more tiresome at Christmas.

I was only trying to help DonkTimesFour but the usual snidey remarks come around, cheers for deleting said posts.

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It's a bit of a pity that some SI staff who know the insides and outs don't much participate in here as much as used too (which is in parts down to the tone of the forums). But lately I've been wondering if there is much sense in the limited defender role much. Initially it was introduced a role (and is recommended to you by staff accordingly) mainly suited to (technically) lesser gifted centre backs. However, at least on a certain level, say EPL level, inviting all the pressure in the world on purpose plus encouraging to play out of defense, retain possession (risky, I know) even at the City Of Manchester Stadium away -- I don't see say Burnley's Michael Duff crumbling and misplacing any passes really when pushed.

Naturally it isn't only the pass succession that ought to suffer with lesser attributes, since you're encouraging to play from the back whilst sitting deep against opponent's piling up the pressure, it encourages those passes upon succession to be to people who themselves are under pressure too. Don't see that huge of a fallout here either. Naturally playing in such a way you will see the opposition have many interceptions straight in your half as well as missed ones in parts encouraged by your insistence to play keep-ball sitting deep against forward pushing opposition trying to win the ball back far up the pitch (as evident by the yellow dots in the interception analysis). But The "passes" themselves of the CBs that are intercepted are typically header clearances. On a related note, an experiment of mine in an admittedly much older iteration had me editing all of Bayern's squad to have a value of 1 in passing and technique, but that didn't really affect their ability in terms of ball retention either (in fact they remained to have some of the most successful passers in the league), suggesting that the technical attributes are more heavily weighted into long passes rather than short ones (which would be logical to a degree, but yet...). On occasion we are encouraged to think about more direct options in bad conditions (pitch, weather), but given that the technical attributes appear a bit undervalued in the calculations (or so it seems), what are your experiences?

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my feedback. It is very disappointing indeed, I really love this series, always have since CM92/93 and there have been a few low points but this years version is the least believable so far, it just fails to convince me that my training and tactical decisions have any real bearing on what happens out on the pitch, the match engine is, I fear, a fraud.

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It's a bit of a pity that some SI staff who know the insides and outs don't much participate in here as much as used too (which is in parts down to the tone of the forums). But lately I've been wondering if there is much sense in the limited defender role much. Initially it was introduced a role (and is recommended to you by staff accordingly) mainly suited to (technically) lesser gifted centre backs. However, at least on a certain level, say EPL level, inviting all the pressure in the world on purpose plus encouraging to play out of defense, retain possession (risky, I know) even at the City Of Manchester Stadium away -- I don't see say Burnley's Michael Duff crumbling and misplacing any passes really when pushed.

Naturally it isn't only the pass succession that ought to suffer with lesser attributes, since you're encouraging to play from the back whilst sitting deep against opponent's piling up the pressure, it encourages those passes upon succession to be to people who themselves are under pressure too. Don't see that huge of a fallout here either. Naturally playing in such a way you will see the opposition have many interceptions straight in your half as well as missed ones in parts encouraged by your insistence to play keep-ball sitting deep against forward pushing opposition trying to win the ball back far up the pitch (as evident by the yellow dots in the interception analysis). But The "passes" themselves of the CBs that are intercepted are typically header clearances. On a related note, an experiment of mine in an admittedly much older iteration had me editing all of Bayern's squad to have a value of 1 in passing and technique, but that didn't really affect their ability in terms of ball retention either (in fact they remained to have some of the most successful passers in the league), suggesting that the technical attributes are more heavily weighted into long passes rather than short ones (which would be logical to a degree, but yet...). On occasion we are encouraged to think about more direct options in bad conditions (pitch, weather), but given that the technical attributes appear a bit undervalued in the calculations (or so it seems), what are your experiences?

Do you think that a player with 1 passing is a terrible passer? That is not the case. An attribute of 1 is the lowest possible in FM, but think about it. How well do conference players pass the ball? Heck, even amateur teams, how well do they pass? I don't think that a passing attribute of 1 should mean the player passing left and right and all over the pitch, except to where he should be. The difference between 1 and 20 in FM is not as drastic as you (I think) think it is. It is much smaller, and I think it should be, because Xavi may have 20 for passing (or whoever), but that does not mean that he is 20 times better at it than someone who has 1 for passing. He is better, but nowhere near that much.

I'd be a terrible passer, but in FM world, my passing would be -100 or something like that :)

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Do you think that a player with 1 passing is a terrible passer? That is not the case. An attribute of 1 is the lowest possible in FM, but think about it. How well do conference players pass the ball? Heck, even amateur teams, how well do they pass? I don't think that a passing attribute of 1 should mean the player passing left and right and all over the pitch, except to where he should be. The difference between 1 and 20 in FM is not as drastic as you (I think) think it is. It is much smaller, and I think it should be, because Xavi may have 20 for passing (or whoever), but that does not mean that he is 20 times better at it than someone who has 1 for passing. He is better, but nowhere near that much.

I'd be a terrible passer, but in FM world, my passing would be -100 or something like that :)

I know how they're weighted, roughly, that they're weighted into the action is the key bit. If FM was working in absolutes, lower league management would be unplayable, a player with a "1" in long shots would never be able to hit a football, in general there'd be players in the database who you could class as not having kicked a ball once, and every key battle would be wholly predictable (guy who's fast than the other wins in 10 out of 10 times they met and run for the ball). Back in the day, Paul Collyer would occasionally have the time to explain that a little, such as here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/97539-FM-s-Match-Engine-live-sim-or-not?p=2602717&viewfull=1#post2602717 Some attributes are more heavily weighted in, some less so it appears, which naturally is an always on-going tweaking process (f'r instance, I think I have posted this a couple of times already, but I've still a video showing what happens if you would have a squad with super low on aggression, work rate and determination attributes across the board -- their closing down would "fail" frequently all over the pitch, they'd just watch and hold position frequently, at least it used to be the case).

I did a lot of tests like this, such as editing a squad full of dirty players (the fallout was immediately to be noticed in the bookings), having a side full of long shot specialists, etc. etc.. Results were always reasonable. Noticing the low tech CB behavior and his lack of failure even under pressure reminded me of the one test of old that did bring curious results, namely that technical attributes such as passing, technique and first touch appeared to have limited effect in isolation in regards to ball retention over short distances at least back then. :) I think low composure and similar would bring completely different results though -- players recommended to you by your staff as being "limited defenders" don't need to have low mental attributes, though it's become apparent players with low mental stats have always been tweaked to crack under pressure or at least opt for a direct route regardless (as many patch notes have it too). That's one of the reasons why it's a little harder to get tiki-taka sequences going with lower league teams. Would be interesting to hear something about the weighting in of purely technical attributes though, in particular regarding to passes. As argued, say the limited defender role appears a little surplus to requirements to me for the time being, just a little.

How did you get the tactic? Can the rest of us see this, as well, it is quite an achievement, that?

It was linked to above. :)http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/413334-Official-Football-Manager-2015-Feedback-Thread-15.2.1?p=10085048&viewfull=1#post10085048

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