The 4-5-1 - The swiss army knife of formations?

[CarltonBanks]

I've had very good luck with the flat 4-5-1 in my save so far. Started in the Dutch second tier with Roda JC, and using attacking wide mids I had unbelievable success. Goals from all over the pitch, central midfield, the wings, the striker, even the CWBa got some non-set piece goals.

[Special_One]

Really great thread and has helped me build 3 really simple flat 451s. The first forms more of a 433 shape with a DLP(D) acting as the holder, and AP(A) to the left and a BBM to the right with a CF(S) acting as more of an all round spearhead. The second produces the same rough shape but a F9 up top sees the BBM replaced with a CM(A) and the AP(A) replaced with a DLP(S). It was lethal against City in the Europa league quarters with my Ajax side with the CM(A) Davy Klaassen often bursting forward uncovered into the space left by the F9 dropping deep. Shows that simplicity is sometimes the best way forward I use standard and flexible and rarely deviate from this unless to go control when required. Midfield trios are where it's at! The variety in player types in the cm strata is what makes this formation so effective for me love the combination of a holder, passer and runner!

[Jambo98]

Really great thread and has helped me build 3 really simple flat 451s. The first forms more of a 433 shape with a DLP(D) acting as the holder, and AP(A) to the left and a BBM to the right with a CF(S) acting as more of an all round spearhead. The second produces the same rough shape but a F9 up top sees the BBM replaced with a CM(A) and the AP(A) replaced with a DLP(S). It was lethal against City in the Europa league quarters with my Ajax side with the CM(A) Davy Klaassen often bursting forward uncovered into the space left by the F9 dropping deep. Shows that simplicity is sometimes the best way forward I use standard and flexible and rarely deviate from this unless to go control when required. Midfield trios are where it's at! The variety in player types in the cm strata is what makes this formation so effective for me love the combination of a holder, passer and runner!

Glad you enjoyed and great that you have gone and created not just one shape from this tactic, but such variety of them. I guess that goes back to the title of the thread doesnt it, the versatility of this shape.

I have dusted this off for a save myself for now. I hit a bit of a mental wall in my pressing /DNA save with Bilbao where a few ME bugs were really starting to annoy me so much that i needed to shut down the save.

So i did something which can be fun. I hived that save off, and started a new "save within a save" - moved to a new club and started a secondary career. I have taken over newcastle in December 2015. The sit 16th in the premier league and i intend to adapt the team to fit my 451 shape/tactic. They have a nice set of players who will suit it, and i might tweak it some but interested to see how it performs at this level after the success with hearts and Liverpool.

Will be interesting to come back to it and see what minor tweaks i need, and how i can adapt to players not having perhaps the best ppms

[herne79]

Jambo, I'll link below a couple of formations I am using at the moment that could easily become 451s. The first is a 4231 wide, the second a 433 (or 41221, or whatever else people call that formation . Both use Inside Forwards.

Here's the question - as you can see I make extensive use of support duty players, with only one attack duty in each tactic: a Trequartista at AMC for the 4231; a CM(A) in the 433. Have you tried so few attacking roles in any of your 451 iterations? I'd be concerned players may not get forward enough to support the final third using a 451?

I'm seeing excellent results from these 2 tactics, and so curious whether they could make the transition to a 451. If I had to guess, I'd probably put the ML/R players on an attack duty rather than the support roles I have for the AML/R positions - attack duties at ML/R equate to support duties at AML/R perhaps? Something I may experiment with once I finish this season.

[Jambo98]

Yup its 2 different concepts - You have players in an attacking "formation" with support duties. I have the reverse. A more conservative "formation" to protect me when defending, with more attack duties (5 of them) to make a quick and deadly transition. The 451 is great for penatrative moves from deep and players arriving later in the box. Your shape is probably more conducive to skillful interchanges around the box.

Part of the reason for 451 is because unless you are a very top team, having your wide men in the AM strata is far more attacking than people percieve. The thing here is, you are that absolute top team. 1 through 11 that is a world class lineup so you can probably get away with those formations. Maybe in the big CL games, you might want an alternative with the wide men in the M strata, but with attack duties.

The other good thing with the 451 is that it doesnt hit as many "parked bus" type issues. Because it is a more defensive "formation" and you get runners from deep, the sides who try to sit in are rarely effective.

[herne79]

Yup agree. Next phase of testing is with West Ham.

Those formations above use a Control mentality and as you rightly surmise, have great interchanges around the box. Be interesting to see how a team such as West Ham get on with them, but also with a 451 alternative.

[Jambo98]

Yup i think West Ham will perform very differently in your tactics - Not sure Andy Carroll and Kev Nolan will give you the great interchanges and individual brilliance needed to break through defenses without runners from deep.

As always, a big part of any tactic (and in particular this 451) is ensuring your players are suited to the system and style of play. Off the top of my head, the type of inside forwards you will have at West Ham will be quite different? Presumably you will have choices like Valencia, Jarvis, Amalfitano? The first 2 are more pacey players than great technical ones like Willian and Hazard? Be interesting to see if you can get Carroll or Safro to play as a False 9? Clearly Costa managed it and he is a big strong type. My preference for a false 9 is more skillfull and creative but you cant always get everything you want

With Newcastle, its been a bit of a mixed start with a few hard luck stories. We beat Man U 3 v 1 in my very first game in charge, but then lost cruely to Arsenal and Liverpool despite having the best of both games. We have however picked up wins against the likes of Southampton, Hull and West Brom to move up the table. The initial 6 games or so we had a few square pegs in round holes, but with the Jan transfer window i have managed to wheel and deal (had zero transfer budget to start) and get in players who suit most of the roles. Michu and Ayoze both doing very well as F9, brought in Vicktor Fischer for my central winger and the existing options of Sissoko and Cabella are very well suited to WM positions. We also have some nice attacking fullbacks to choose from which suits me.

I will do some analysis in a bit. Its a different experience to Liverpool in that we are a level down in terms of players/squad. We still have some very good players but we are second tier EPL at best.

[DouglasMig]

The Swiss Formation:

Benaglio

Ziegler - Grichting - Von Bergen - Lichtsteiner

G. Fernandes - Inler - Huggel - Barnetta

Derdiyok

Nkufo

4-4-1-1 - Swiss 1 x 0 Spain - The World Cup 2010

How would that be in FM15?

[Jambo98]

The Swiss Formation:

Benaglio

Ziegler - Grichting - Von Bergen - Lichtsteiner

G. Fernandes - Inler - Huggel - Barnetta

Derdiyok

Nkufo

4-4-1-1 - Swiss 1 x 0 Spain - The World Cup 2010

How would that be in FM15?

Absolutely no idea, and it seems to have little or no relevance to the thread, unless you think you are looking to create that from the 451. If that is the case, great, maybe we can get a bit of discussion about it. But you need to be more detailed, give us some details of how you think that formation/shape played out in that game (as i recall it was a rubbish game TBH).

Otherwise, well cant really help you.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

would love to create a 4-5-1 flat with two wingers and three basic CM with two on defend one on attack

[Jambo98]

er ok........Well do it? Your posts seem to never have any actual point to them, and are never over a single line.

This thread has all the info you could ever need to build that exact tactic, given that its 2 pages of me and a few others doing exactly that.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

er ok........Well do it? Your posts seem to never have any actual point to them, and are never over a single line.

This thread has all the info you could ever need to build that exact tactic, given that its 2 pages of me and a few others doing exactly that.

I'm trying i dont need u having a go at me constantly just cause u spend every minute on tactics i dont have time for.

[Jungztar]

I have to agree with Jambo here.... All the basics and thoughts behind the system are there in the thread.... BUT you have to think for yourself and start testing.

[Jungztar]

BTW, a big thank you Jambo on your efforts and for sharing the experiences.... Really helped me a lot in my thought process.

[Jambo98]

thanks Jungztar, glad it helped you I really think often the thought process is the most important thing when creating a tactic. Once you master that (which i freely admit, i have not yet fully!), the end goal will become almost less important - You will be able to create any end goal (within reason) because you understand the thought processes, and those processes can often be unique to the individual

Now that the new patch is out, no doubt this tactic will need changed I might have a new save and go through a process of understanding what needs to change to make it work with the "new" ME.

[Jungztar]

It is indeed pleasing to start seeing the ideas carried out in FM and actually working and even more pleasing to be able to identify what you did wrong when it is not working I am having huge success with HSV in the BL with the flat 451 which translates into 4231 when attacking. I have used the same approach with 2 holding MCs and 3 attacking midfielders surging into the Space created by the SC.... Beautiful! Currently working on a 4141 version which should translate into 41221

I haven't checked the patch release notes yet.... But yeah it is probably rework of the tactics

[Torskus77]

I have to say this is one of my favourtie threads of FM15 so far, I learned a lot from it. Mostly it gave me the balls to try the mr/rl rather than the amr/aml that I had been so obsessed with over years. I haven't had any time hardly for FM at all over the past few weeks sadly, I used a lot of ideas from this in my Walsall save, which worked well eventually once I ironed a few things out regarding the midfield 3. I did a kind of throw away Liverpool save a while back too, I just couldn't resist trying Coutinho out playing the WML role. I actually won the treble, everything bar the Carling Cup. Including wins v Bayern and Real Madrid. I had Sturridge out for 4 months, and Sakho out for 5 months, ended up using Lambert in attack and Lloyd Jones out the youth set up played a load of games.

Anyway, tried a couple of games on the new patch out of interest, all still looks pretty good, the relationship between the F9 and the CM (a) has changed a little (although I never used a Central winger like in your save) The F9 not dropping so deep when defending, which isn't a huge problem, it just looks a bit different, would need to play more games to see how it really works though. The wide midfielders are still devastating, they are my favourite part of this set up, I love how the play so much.

[Jungztar]

I am also loving the WMA..... Holtby as WMR is really deadly both in creating chances, arriving in the area and finishing moves..... I never used the central winger either but I have opted for a more creative PM role (suiting van der Vaart) with a CF (s) as striker.... But I have used a natural winger as Complete Forward and he is absolutely destroying the BL.... Lightning quick and agile..... So far 12 goals in 9 matches.

I have made the same assessment as Jambo with the 4 attacking roles (WML, WMR, MCA and CF) and how I can change the way we play by choosing different player combinations....Depending on what I want to achieve and the opposition.... WIthout changing the mentality or formation.... Beautiful

[Torskus77]

Well that is the real beauty of the formation, it is so flexible. I had a long spell in my Walsall save where I used the central of the 3 midfielders as a DLP (d) as the holding player, and a CM (a) and B2B midfielder either side of him, this obviously completely transforms how the whole formation looks. It took a while to get that right actually more so than with the double pivot, but with both those set ups in my Arsenal, I could really change how we played. There are so many more things you could do with it, brilliant.

If I get more time, I want to have a proper go at a flat 4-4-2, but I must admit I am slightly addicted to this formation now.

[Jambo98]

Thanks both - Torkus your Walsall save and progression and tweaking was brilliant to see and read about here as well. I briefly started a save with Crewe earlier this week which would have been a similar crusade, but starting a save 3 days before a major patch was a little unlucky.

Good to know that the basis of it still seems to work on 15.3. I had hoped that would be the case, as its a system built on solid tactical principles and logic, not an exploit, but sadly with some FM patches, there tend to be wierd knock on effects from some fixes which go in. I did note the fixlist comment about support strikers and i hope it hasnt ruined how the F9 works overall - It should be a very deep forward role by its nature, so hopefully they havent tweaked that to be too extreme

I am just kicking the tyres on starting a save with Torino, to try and restore the glory days, and i will use this system as the cornerstone if i do. I might take advantage of the versatility and create a different shape from it, but then again i do love the 4231 shape that morphs out of my "Liverpool" setup from page one. The balance just feels absolutely right in all areas.

Jungztar - Yup my threads are crossing over a bit here, but the bit you mention about the player combos has been a big part of how i used this at Athletic. It allows me to vary my attacking output without actually changing any tactical settings. It links in a bit to what Torskus was saying about using a playmaker type rather than a winger type at CM(a) - i have come to embrace the option of having one of each type available in my squad. Likewise with strikers, fast and tricky, and strong and powerful produce varied types of play

I shall do some analysis and write ups of it on 15.3 if/when i get going with Torino. Its a bit of a challenge, since the squad is ancient by my standards. 11 first team squad are 30 or over. Only maybe 2 players under 23 good enough to start. Means a long term process to turn it over

[Mark.]

Played my first game using the 4-5-1 on the new patch last night. Didn't seem too many changes. I think the WMAs were more effective maybe? They deffo were more direct in their dribbling which I think was a patch change. Or it could be the personnel that I was using (Podolski and Welbeck).

Must add my piece to the whole squad building aspect of it. I absolutely love the interchangeability of the 4-5-1. I routinely am swapping between Cazorla, Ozil and Ox in my CMa role and they bring such different things. A common approach I am taking recently, is if I am struggling a little bit for a break through, but have firm control of the game, I will set my more creative WM to swap with the CM. Seems to trouble the other team in most cases and I also feel it gives the two players a chance to play their game from different areas.

A common lineup for me is:

-------------Welbeck------------

Alexis------The Ox--------Ozil

(With the two holding players in the CM line too)

I will then set Ox and Ozil to swap with each other and Welbeck and Alexis to swap.

[Jambo98]

Yup i think the early indications are that the patch has not damaged the effectiveness of this system Played a couple of club matches and a couple of internationals, and other than noting that the F9 does indeed stay a little further forward when defending, i didnt notice any negative impacts. The f9 still drops off quite well when we have deep possession, and the principles which underpin the system still seem to hold true

I think tomorrow i might look at kicking off the Torino save and seeing how i can apply the 451 shape to a new squad, new level of football (underdogs).

[ifinnem]

Just wanted to say thanks to Jambo for this and other great threads

This inspired me to create my own version of the 451 that acts more like a 433/41221 in practice and has proven very effective!

[Torskus77]

Thanks both - Torkus your Walsall save and progression and tweaking was brilliant to see and read about here as well. I briefly started a save with Crewe earlier this week which would have been a similar crusade, but starting a save 3 days before a major patch was a little unlucky.

Good to know that the basis of it still seems to work on 15.3. I had hoped that would be the case, as its a system built on solid tactical principles and logic, not an exploit, but sadly with some FM patches, there tend to be wierd knock on effects from some fixes which go in. I did note the fixlist comment about support strikers and i hope it hasnt ruined how the F9 works overall - It should be a very deep forward role by its nature, so hopefully they havent tweaked that to be too extreme

I am just kicking the tyres on starting a save with Torino, to try and restore the glory days, and i will use this system as the cornerstone if i do. I might take advantage of the versatility and create a different shape from it, but then again i do love the 4231 shape that morphs out of my "Liverpool" setup from page one. The balance just feels absolutely right in all areas.

Jungztar - Yup my threads are crossing over a bit here, but the bit you mention about the player combos has been a big part of how i used this at Athletic. It allows me to vary my attacking output without actually changing any tactical settings. It links in a bit to what Torskus was saying about using a playmaker type rather than a winger type at CM(a) - i have come to embrace the option of having one of each type available in my squad. Likewise with strikers, fast and tricky, and strong and powerful produce varied types of play

I shall do some analysis and write ups of it on 15.3 if/when i get going with Torino. Its a bit of a challenge, since the squad is ancient by my standards. 11 first team squad are 30 or over. Only maybe 2 players under 23 good enough to start. Means a long term process to turn it over

I think it's a good thing really to be starting quite a way from where you want to be, if you get what I mean. I enjoyed the Liverpool save for what it was, but it was relatively easy, and would get easier pretty quickly too

as they have such a high rep, you could sign pretty much any players you want bar from the real giants of football. Starting with Torino with an aging squad certainly will give you some where to go with the youth delevopment

over time if you wish too. That's why I always have a yearly Walsall save, they are my team, are pretty much always in the lower leagues, with a rubbish reputation (albeit decent training facilities) so it's fun building the club

up over time.

I'm thinking of starting a new save when I get a bit more free time, I really only like managing in England, and can't really be bothered with the climbing the leagues business now, done that with Walsall. Not a top club

either, so gonna have a think, got Sunderland in mind, but there are a few others I could choose. I may do something different , I want to have a go at a flat 4-4-2, but such is my addiction to the flat 4-5-1 now, I may do something different with that possibly.

I look forward to reading your posts about the Torino save anyway, hopefully you will have time to share.

[Firehouse]

Went through the thread, and it was a very good read. Great job Jambo.

I got myself a very decent working tactic so far (started a new game on 15.3), and I'm happy how the setup works in offensive shape and in defensive shape. I only have trouble with my CM(d), but I always get low ratings for this kind of defansive midfielders anyway, whether they are set as CM(d) or even anchor man, half back. They rating system don't actually work very well. But hey, it's ok.

But what I didn't ran into this thread, and I find it very important, are some guidance for PPM. So any text regarding the PPM's would be very appreciated.

[Jambo98]

Thanks Firehouse.

In terms of the point about the CM(d) and similar players, yes i think its an accepted issue that a lot of the time, and in a lot of systems, the Ave Rating wont reflect how much they give to the team. If i look at my system, the DLP(d) usually averages about 6.8 at best. And in the latest save, i have had Iturraspe who is a Spanish International. However i watch a lot of detail games and i see how crucial he is, and how he does the small things right. he doesnt get goals or assists, but he is the lynchpin of the entire system. I prefer to believe what i see with my eyes, and the results it produces, rather than worry about the average rating.

To be fair, its not that dis-similar to real life. You dont hear much about Lucas in the MOTM reports, but god he is absolutely vital to Liverpool. No coincidence that since his injury they have not looked the same side at all.

Anyway, onto PPMs. I have mentioned them in a lot of different posts in this thread, but maybe not all in one place:

PPMs - The principle

The type of PPMs you want will depend on how you want things to play out. You can take different approaches. You might like to train different players with almost opposite PPM's sometimes, to give you options to vary your play without changing tactics. For some roles though, this wont be suitable. They should be used to augment your system, and can really make a difference between a "good" and "great" system.

If i look at what i want in my 451:

GK - I dont tend to use them for keepers, but "long throws" would be a useful addition to systems which counter. I would guess a lot of people miss this option.

Fullbacks - I setup with very attacking fullbacks, so i look for "Runs with the ball down left/right" and "Gets forward whenever possible". I also might look for "plays 1-2s" in order to help interplay between my WM and my CWB. On the flipside, i would avoide "dives into challenges" and also for my setup, i avoid "likes to switch play" - doesnt suit how i play (but can be a great addition in other systems)

Centrebacks - I tend to keep them fairly neutral. I have found that the PPM "Marks tightly" actually made the issue of centre backs rushing out worse, so i avoid this PPM. "Dives into tackles" is one i dont teach, but if one of the 2 CBs has it i will usually leave it in place. "plays simple passes" i might add for defenders who dont have good passing attributes, and in this system it can work well because of the 2 DLP - they always give a simple passing option

DLP - This one can be quite important. For the defend duty, i want "comes deep to get ball", however its important that the support duty player does not also have this, otherwise the shape goes wrong. For the support duty i want "tries killer balls often" as i want this guy to be my risk taker. I might also add "plays simple passes" for the defend duty one, as i want this guy to just recycle possession. I would try to avoid the "shoots from long range often" one and also "dwells on ball" if possible

CM - So this guy for me plays as a central winger, and i need him to play like an AMC. PPMs are key to this. I want "runs with the ball through the middle", "runs with the ball often", "gets further forward", "gets into opposition area", "plays 1-2s". Maybe also "tries killer balls" depending on the player attributes. This is one role which a lot of people earlier in the thread talked about struggling with, when you dont have PPMs to really help the player get forward

WM - They key to this tactic, and because they play in the ML/MR and not AMR and AML slots, some PPM's can help here. I look for "arrives late in opposition area" or just "gets into opposition area", i also look for "cuts inside" and "tries killer balls" if i have a player like Coutinho". "plays 1-2s" never goes amiss for this type of role either. I avoid "hugs line" or "runs with the ball down left/right"

F9 - I might need to look at this more in the new patch, since it has changed the way the F9 performs. It also very much depends on player types. I might have a strong type learn "holds ball up", but i like a fast striker who can run from this role, so might add "runs with the ball through the middle". If i have a creator type here, "tries killer balls" will help him play in the wide midfielders. I would avoid "shoots from distance" and probably also avoid "likes to beat offiside trap". Not a fan of "plays with back to goal either, although it might sound like a logical fit here.

Hope that is of some help - Its very much a case of really understanding how the PPMs will help your system perform

[vasilli07]

I like my WMs to learn 'move into channels'. Will kind of make them into a Raumdeuter. If you prefer an IF, then cut inside. But unlike move into channels, you can change the PI to do it, that's why I prefer move into channels.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

sorry so ive changed my monaco to a flat mid 5

with false nine berbatov

then i have a winger (a) BTB (S) CM (D) AP(A as motinho) and a DW (S)

then behind i have Wingback on Support and Complete wing back on attack behnd the defensive winger

with close down more, shorter passing, play out of defense, low tempo and push higher up with control. could this work?

[Jyuan83]

Vasilli07 i noticed that the WM is actually a very versatile role that can be modified to produce any role in the AML/R spectrum to the ML/R area. Want an inside forward? There is the cut inside PI for you. Want a winger? Stay wider and run wide with dribble more PIs. There is a wide playmaker for AP role on the wings. However no movement into channel for WM. I find this particularly strange. Even the central midfielders have the movement into channel option open so why not the wide mids? The fact that ppm of movement into channel is possible for wide mids shows that the ME is able to process the movement option. I hope SI resolves this for FM16 if possible.

[Jambo98]

I like my WMs to learn 'move into channels'. Will kind of make them into a Raumdeuter. If you prefer an IF, then cut inside. But unlike move into channels, you can change the PI to do it, that's why I prefer move into channels.

It can be a nice PPM, depending on how far infield you want them to get. I found that "cuts inside" combined with "gets into the area" (any of the 3 variants) provides more goal scoring chances than "moves into channels", but there are lots of combos you can have, especially if you focus on complimenting not just the rest of your system, but the specific player attributes and things like footedness too. Its all about the bigger picture

sorry so ive changed my monaco to a flat mid 5

with false nine berbatov

then i have a winger (a) BTB (S) CM (D) AP(A as motinho) and a DW (S)

then behind i have Wingback on Support and Complete wing back on attack behnd the defensive winger

with close down more, shorter passing, play out of defense, low tempo and push higher up with control. could this work?

Anything can work really - The only way to answer that is to try it across 5 games or so and observe what you see. My only observation on looking at it in principle, is that your not going to get anyone into the box really? Who are your players you identify as being the ones you expect to be in the box finishing the moves.

Vasilli07 i noticed that the WM is actually a very versatile role that can be modified to produce any role in the AML/R spectrum to the ML/R area. Want an inside forward? There is the cut inside PI for you. Want a winger? Stay wider and run wide with dribble more PIs. There is a wide playmaker for AP role on the wings. However no movement into channel for WM. I find this particularly strange. Even the central midfielders have the movement into channel option open so why not the wide mids? The fact that ppm of movement into channel is possible for wide mids shows that the ME is able to process the movement option. I hope SI resolves this for FM16 if possible.

Yup i am very much in love with the WM role this year. "Move into channels" as a PI is designed for central players however, not for wide men. Its designed to make central players drift towards the wide area. In many ways "sit narrower" is probably the equivalent for a wide player.

[tyro]

Very nice thread and analysis. Only got around to now to read properly through.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hey,

I read this post and almost in the same time I wanted to start a new game using something similar.

So, I started one with Derby and this is the shape and Instructions:

TI:

- Standard

- Very Fluid (want to have a very fluid tactic for the first time)

- Shorter Passing

- Work box into box

- Lower tempo

- Push higher up

- Close down more

- Be more expressive? (don't know yet, I like discipline teams so)

- Roam from positions? (don't know yet, I like discipline teams so)

Roles/Positions:

GK: SK (D) (pass to full back or wing back)

RD: FB (S)

CD: CD (D)

CD: CD (D)

LD: WB (A)

RM: W (A)

CMr: CM (A)

CMc: CM (S) or AP (S)

CMd: CM (D)

LM: WM (A) (cut inside)

ST: DLF (S) or T (A)

Any suggestion or change?

Should I go discipline or let them move?

AP ou CM? And DLF or T?

Thanks.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

go a advanded playmaker on attack and box to box on suppor to go with the Cm d

[thomit]

,

Yup i am very much in love with the WM role this year. "Move into channels" as a PI is designed for central players however, not for wide men. Its designed to make central players drift towards the wide area. In many ways "sit narrower" is probably the equivalent for a wide player.

If you want your WM to behave more as a Raumdeuter - and why not? - you'll see that this role has both sit narrower and move into channels as default. Just thought I'd mention it.

[pedromanuelpinto]

go a advanded playmaker on attack and box to box on suppor to go with the Cm d

I want a very fluid, so if possible I must use the most standard roles. I like the CM (A) role, why should I change that?

[Jambo98]

Hey,

I read this post and almost in the same time I wanted to start a new game using something similar.

So, I started one with Derby and this is the shape and Instructions:

TI:

- Standard

- Very Fluid (want to have a very fluid tactic for the first time)

- Shorter Passing

- Work box into box

- Lower tempo

- Push higher up

- Close down more

- Be more expressive? (don't know yet, I like discipline teams so)

- Roam from positions? (don't know yet, I like discipline teams so)

Roles/Positions:

GK: SK (D) (pass to full back or wing back)

RD: FB (S)

CD: CD (D)

CD: CD (D)

LD: WB (A)

RM: W (A)

CMr: CM (A)

CMc: CM (S) or AP (S)

CMd: CM (D)

LM: WM (A) (cut inside)

ST: DLF (S) or T (A)

Any suggestion or change?

Should I go discipline or let them move?

AP ou CM? And DLF or T?

Thanks.

It looks fairly well set up, but really we cant say if it will or wont work - You need to try it out, observe and understand. The thinking is reasonably sound.

My only comment would be that adding "roam from positions" and "be more expressive" on top of "very fluid" will likely produce overkill. I think there are some posts earlier where i made a similar mistake in my Liverpool save and ended up with the middle 3 in the same spaces.

go a advanded playmaker on attack and box to box on suppor to go with the Cm d

Appreciate you taking the time to input, but if you are going to give advice in this thread would be much better if you can put some rationale behind what you are saying. As it stands, your just suggested a random middle 3 with no logic - its not really going to help the guy to develop something.

If you want your WM to behave more as a Raumdeuter - and why not? - you'll see that this role has both sit narrower and move into channels as default. Just thought I'd mention it.

Thats an interesting anomoly. I would almost say a bug. The behavior of the PI "moves into channels" and even the PPM has been talked about a lot over the last year, and it was confirmed a couple of times that it should have "no effect" on wide players. It is meant to make central players move horizontally into vertical channels.

[Jyuan83]

I recently checked out the player instructions for a raumdeuter and found them to be "pass it shorter", "cross less often", "roam from position", "sit narrower" and "move into channels". This gives me the impression that the typical movement of a raumdeuter involves moving into central, narrow postions before moving out into wider areas if that is what moving into channels means. The first 4 could be easily implemented in a WM with the exception being the movement into channels. I am trying it out with run wide with ball and assigning him to specifically mark the central defender closest to his flank to get that kind of movement from central areas to wider regions going as he transitions from defensive phase to attacking phase. So far, the results have not been forthcoming. At times, he often appeared annonymous. I agree with you you Jambo that this could well be a bug in the programming.

[vasilli07]

Isn't move into channels a movement without the ball while cut inside is with the ball? Muller has 'move into channels' ppm. I believe that's the reason why the Raumdeuter has 'move into channels' checked.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Thanks Jambo, will remove the be more expressive and roaming from position, and will give it a try.

[Jyuan83]

Hi Vasilli07, yes movement into channels is an off the ball movement. I remember back in FM13 you wrote about giving your Gareth Bale the PI to move into channels and he ended up scoring quite a few goals. Funny that you mentioned about Muller. His best position according to FM15 is in the MR position but like you said with the ppm to move into channels. His namesake role the raumdeuter is in the AML/R area but he is best described in the game to be a natural in the MR area. Perhaps we might see the raumdeuter role in the MR/L area in FM16 soon like how the BWM was included in the DM spectrum in FM15 instead of only in MC positions.

[vasilli07]

Hi Vasilli07, yes movement into channels is an off the ball movement. I remember back in FM13 you wrote about giving your Gareth Bale the PI to move into channels and he ended up scoring quite a few goals. Funny that you mentioned about Muller. His best position according to FM15 is in the MR position but like you said with the ppm to move into channels. His namesake role the raumdeuter is in the AML/R area but he is best described in the game to be a natural in the MR area. Perhaps we might see the raumdeuter role in the MR/L area in FM16 soon like how the BWM was included in the DM spectrum in FM15 instead of only in MC positions.

Yup. Glad that my understanding that time was right with the raumdeuter also given the move into channel PI too. Agree with your suggestion as well.

[Matt Langdon]

Hey guys, love this thread so much - it actually got me playing 15. I am playing Liverpool and won the league on the last day in the first season, so very happy. Into the second season now and wanting to fine tune things, so wondered if you had some advice on the two concerns I have had.

I'm playing with the two DLPs and M(a), the WM(a) and the F9. TIs are Shorter Passing, Passing Into Space, Play Out of Defence, Push Higher Up, Roam From Positions, Close Down More, Higher Tempo, and Be More Expressive. I play a Standard mentality and Very Fluid.

First concern - I'm getting a lot of flack from the media and opposing coaches about the rough play. We foul a lot. I assume that is simply from the closing down, but wanted to check to see if others were experiencing it as well. I'm not too worried about it, but figured it would be nice to not be considered the brutes of the league.

Second - nearly half of my shots are from long range. Despite pushing higher up, the team doesn't seem to get forward, so the ball carrier is almost always driving toward the box and shooting. I know I need to find some wide midfielders who will run, but I wondered if there was something obvious that was causing the long shots.

[vasilli07]

On the shots from long range, it could be the fluidity that you have chosen. A very fluid and be more expressive TI means that all your players are likely to have near to max CF.

Tempo could also be a factor. A higher tempo could result in lower quality shots as they are likely to rush things.

[Matt Langdon]

On the shots from long range, it could be the fluidity that you have chosen. A very fluid and be more expressive TI means that all your players are likely to have near to max CF.

Tempo could also be a factor. A higher tempo could result in lower quality shots as they are likely to rush things.

Thanks. I'm going to reduce the expressive nature and see what happens.

[herne79]

Hey guys, love this thread so much - it actually got me playing 15. I am playing Liverpool and won the league on the last day in the first season, so very happy. Into the second season now and wanting to fine tune things, so wondered if you had some advice on the two concerns I have had.

I'm playing with the two DLPs and M(a), the WM(a) and the F9. TIs are Shorter Passing, Passing Into Space, Play Out of Defence, Push Higher Up, Roam From Positions, Close Down More, Higher Tempo, and Be More Expressive. I play a Standard mentality and Very Fluid.

First concern - I'm getting a lot of flack from the media and opposing coaches about the rough play. We foul a lot. I assume that is simply from the closing down, but wanted to check to see if others were experiencing it as well. I'm not too worried about it, but figured it would be nice to not be considered the brutes of the league.

Second - nearly half of my shots are from long range. Despite pushing higher up, the team doesn't seem to get forward, so the ball carrier is almost always driving toward the box and shooting. I know I need to find some wide midfielders who will run, but I wondered if there was something obvious that was causing the long shots.

1) Unless you are getting lots of players banned from picking up yellow or red cards, I wouldn't worry about it. If you really want to change it, try removing the TI but adding back in the more closing down PI for individual players instead.

2) At the end of matches, look at your shots taken screen and click on individual long range shots to view them. A few will probably be direct free kicks and can be discounted. Of the others, why were the shots made and by who? Was the player perhaps isolated and so didn't have another option? Does someone have a PPM that may affect things? Have you tried the PI of Shoot Less or the TI Work Ball into Box? You have a TI of Pass into Space so are players actually able to do that? You are using an F9 who will be dropping deep so is he (or anyone else) actually getting into the box to shoot? Like I said, have a look at these long shots on individual replays which should give you a better idea of what is happening as there could be any number of reasons.

[Jambo98]

Yup i think it was mentioned not so long ago, and i covered it in my Liverpool save - Very fluid + Roam More + Be more expressive is overkill on the creative freedom side, and can lead to anarchy. I would consider removing at least one, if not 2 of those CF modifiers.

As herne points out, worth doing a bit of analysis around when they are happening and why.

Personally, i find that since 15.3 this system will generate marginally more long shots. The changes to support forwards, in my opinion, had a knock on effect of slightly breaking the F9 role. He does not come deep enough in transition now, which can mean he is isolated, which in turn increases the long shot numbers. The TI Work into box can certainly mitigate it, and also possible "hold up ball" on as a PI on the striker.

Good luck

[Matt Langdon]

Brilliant. Thanks guys. This is a great thread. Very helpful.

[Jungztar]

I continue having huge succes with the 451 also on the new patch.... I play with a CF (s) in attack and it is extremely effective.... Only tweak is "shoot less often" but the role really suits the system IMO. I play with HSV and I rotate between Beister (natural winger) and Rudnevs (defensive forward type) and Beister has 18 goals in 17 matches and Rudnevs has 5 goals in the last 2 games.

I still love the 2 DLPs camped in the middle of the pitch breaking up attacks and launching quick counters.... We have not conceeded a goal in the last 11 matches which is crazy but we are bascially keeping the opponents from CCC and even HCs.... They mainly launch long shots that are never in danger of hitting anything other than the parking lot behind the stadium....

[noikeee]

I continue having huge succes with the 451 also on the new patch....

I don't, at all. Been having a very underwhelming first season with Inter on course for a 5th place. I've tried all sorts of variants of 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 and struggle to get any consistency whatsoever. It's like every match is completely different. Sometimes I annihilate the opposition. Other matches I manage to turn it around with little tactical tweaks that seem logical to me and they work as expected. Yet other (many) times I try to predict the danger and fail horribly, or keep things unchanged with the same result. It also feels like the home factor makes a huge difference. It's so frustrating, I just don't think I understand any of the match engines since FM13 and this is no different.

[Jambo98]

I don't, at all. Been having a very underwhelming first season with Inter on course for a 5th place. I've tried all sorts of variants of 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 and struggle to get any consistency whatsoever. It's like every match is completely different. Sometimes I annihilate the opposition. Other matches I manage to turn it around with little tactical tweaks that seem logical to me and they work as expected. Yet other (many) times I try to predict the danger and fail horribly, or keep things unchanged with the same result. It also feels like the home factor makes a huge difference. It's so frustrating, I just don't think I understand any of the match engines since FM13 and this is no different.

And have you been playing/trying 451? If not, in the politest way possible, what is the relevance to this thread and Jungztar's post?

5th place for Inter is hardly a terrible season. They must be tipped to finish around there? They have a pretty bad and unbalanced squad to start with.