Closing out games. What do you do?

[Bananas]

Been a while since I was active on this forum, although I've played the game continuously life sort of gets in the way eventually. I'm thoroughly enjoying this new incarnation of FM though, which feels more tactically aware than recent versions. But I have one question for you out there;

While after tinkering quite a bit with formations I've settled on an attacking 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation and have been playing some attractive football of late, but the one thing I'm really struggling with is how to properly close out games with narrow leads, especially against quality opposition. Of course there is no magic formula and sometimes you'll have to admit you've been bettered, but I've tried a number of approaches now and can't quite seem to get my team solid enough to prevent massive pressure and the (often) injury time equaliser. This is really not a question about a solution, just interested to see how you guys out there are coping (if you are coping), and what approach you take. Do any of you have a separate tactic that you go to in the waning minutes of a tight game? I usually try to alter mentalities/roles/PI's/TI's and occasionally playing positions (i.e. move a W down to WM, etc.) to more defensive-minded ones, but I'm obviously struggling with this so I'd be interested to hear what other people do.

Cheers!

[Jambo98]

I quite simply change to "Contain" mentality, which in itself will alter the TI behind the scenes. It works well enough, clearly nothing is 100% but i have lost very few late leads using that method. I usuall switch to it with 10 - 15mins to go. Before that, if i am only one goal up against a tougher team i might go down to "Defend" with 20 - 25mins to go.

I dont change formation, although if i was playing your formation i probably would change to 4141 to defend the flanks.

[RTHerringbone]

I tend to not do anything on the basis that if a team comes at me to try and nick a draw, then they leave space behind for me to attack. Loads of grumbles on the General Discussion threads bemoan the AI (it's always only ever the AI! ) coming from behind to draw or win, but I've found it is more common for me to score late on and extend a lead, than it is to concede late goals.

[Cleon]

I tend to not do anything on the basis that if a team comes at me to try and nick a draw, then they leave space behind for me to attack. Loads of grumbles on the General Discussion threads bemoan the AI (it's always only ever the AI! ) coming from behind to draw or win, but I've found it is more common for me to score late on and extend a lead, than it is to concede late goals.

This!!

I did a piece on this recently where I played Man City in the first season (I'm League One strugglers Sheffield United!) and they really started to attack me in the 2nd half so rather than go defensive I decided to hurt them;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term?p=10029579&viewfull=1#post10029579

[Jambo98]

I think there is merit to that approach, but in general terms it shouldnt work all the time. If it does, its probably not realistic. Even the best teams occasionally should shut up shop or hold a lead. Choosing not to do so probably cost Liverpool the league last year. Mourinho bringing on Mikel, Pellegrini taking off a striker for Fernando/Fernandinho.... examples of why sometimes (not always), its right to close out a game by playing safer. Im pretty sure Rodgers has done it this season twice now, bringing on a 3rd centre half with 5mins to go.

I dont buy into the rubbish that its the AI or the game is bugged etc etc, but if you do nothing to protect leads in any game, you will throw away a few

[Cleon]

I think there is merit to that approach, but in general terms it shouldnt work all the time. If it does, its probably not realistic. Even the best teams occasionally should shut up shop or hold a lead. Choosing not to do so probably cost Liverpool the league last year. Mourinho bringing on Mikel, Pellegrini taking off a striker for Fernando/Fernandinho.... examples of why sometimes (not always), its right to close out a game by playing safer. Im pretty sure Rodgers has done it this season twice now, bringing on a 3rd centre half with 5mins to go.

I dont buy into the rubbish that its the AI or the game is bugged etc etc, but if you do nothing to protect leads in any game, you will throw away a few

Why is it not realistic? It's happen an awful lot in real too where a team goes chasing the game and end up conceding more goals. And dare I say, it probably happens a lot more than someone actually manages to protect a lead and hang on. Unless we don't use a proper sample size and only talk about top class sides like you mentioned and ignore the more realistic averages sides who this really applies to.

That's not what cost Liverpool the league at all either imo, what cost them the league was no plan b against sides who sit deep and are hard to break down, that's what lost them the title.

But we have to remember this isn't real life its a game so both your examples and mine are meaningless.

Going defensive to close out a game only really works if you have players who can handle that and cope with the invited pressure that your team will be under. I've never subscribed to the fact that on FM you go more defensive to protect a lead, if you are winning then you have done something right so why change? Sure you can adapt to the changes the AI makes but in FM when a team chases a game they go attacking which leaves them short at the back, catches people out of position etc and its much easier and simpler to score more goals than it is to protect a lead. This is why we see so many users on here who always post along the lines of 'I shut up shop or protected a 3-0 lead and ended up losing 5-3' blah blah.

I'd put money on more people losing a lead when protecting it, more often than those who carry on normal and look to attack the space left open.

[Jambo98]

Why is it not realistic? It's happen an awful lot in real too where a team goes chasing the game and end up conceding more goals. And dare I say, it probably happens a lot more than someone actually manages to protect a lead and hang on. Unless we don't use a proper sample size and only talk about top class sides like you mentioned and ignore the more realistic averages sides who this really applies to.

That's not what cost Liverpool the league at all either imo, what cost them the league was no plan b against sides who sit deep and are hard to break down, that's what lost them the title.

But we have to remember this isn't real life its a game so both your examples and mine are meaningless.

Going defensive to close out a game only really works if you have players who can handle that and cope with the invited pressure that your team will be under. I've never subscribed to the fact that on FM you go more defensive to protect a lead, if you are winning then you have done something right so why change? Sure you can adapt to the changes the AI makes but in FM when a team chases a game they go attacking which leaves them short at the back, catches people out of position etc and its much easier and simpler to score more goals than it is to protect a lead. This is why we see so many users on here who always post along the lines of 'I shut up shop or protected a 3-0 lead and ended up losing 5-3' blah blah.

I'd put money on more people losing a lead when protecting it, more often than those who carry on normal and look to attack the space left open.

What ever works for the individual i guess. Maybe SI should reword the descriptors around the "contain" mentality though......

I have just completed a season and looked back, i conceded one equaliser and no losing goals in the last 15mins of games using my approach of going to "contain" (we conceded other goals in the last 15mins over the season, just not ones to impact the result).

The Liverpool reference was the fact that it is pretty much universally accepted that had they shut up shop at 3 v 1 against Palace, rather than keeping going forward, they would have taken 3pts. As it happens, they would still have lost the title on GD right enough

I said its unrealistic as i cant recall an example of an average side employing this tactic. If West Brom are 1 up against Chelsea, they will go more defensive. If Hull are one up against Arsenal, they will go defensive. It wont always be a success, but it will be more often than if they tried to attack these sides.

If west brom are 1 up against hull, more open to interpretation, but i think you will find they will certainly reduce risk taking.

[brussels]

In FM15 I have lost count of games I have scored first, and then lost the game despite my "counter attacking" tactical system.

I have had much much better results holding a lead hiding the ball from the opposition and playing ultra defensive while keeping the ball, like Jambo suggests.

[Jambo98]

That would be because counter attacking is somewhat misunderstood. It is not a defensive system, it is primarily a method of attack. Just watch how your men pour forward quickly when you win possession and you will see why you might lose goals late in games.

[brussels]

That's the problem I'm having this year, my counter attacks are **** poor. Many times we tick a few passes forward until one players decide to either hold up the ball until opp. steals it or they make a 30-yard back pass. Or the 2nd or 3rd pass building up the counter attack goes straight to an opponent, thus catching my team completely out of position.

I understand the philosophy of counter attacking, and it's what I want to exploit, I believe I have the players for it (quick and with good first touch and dribbling), but for some reason I can't make it work. In previous years it was relatively easy... sit relatively deep, invite pressure, and eventually steal the ball and break forward. This year it seems impossible. Even playing 442 with 2 strikers pushing against the opp. CB's they never break free, or win a loose ball.

Since the fashion in football seems to be to pass the ball around until the opponent falls asleep I guess SI forgot about those of us that like to play a bit more direct.

[Jambo98]

We are risking going away a little from the OP question, but for counter attacking football you need to consider space creation. Counter attacking with 2 strikers pushed up high is counter intuitive. You need to create space in behind, that wont happen with 2 strikers always left high up the pitch. The best counter attacks come with pacey players from deep positions. Starting positions in the midfield strata are great for this. Attacking wingers, an attacking CM, can all work. Its not easy, of course not. Its not easy IRL either, which is why teams which play true devastating counter attacking football come along once or twice every 5 years.

[brussels]

Closing out games. What do you do?

I try to counter attack and increase the lead.

We are risking going away a little from the OP question,

We are trying to talk about how to close out a game counter-attacking, right?

My idea using a 442 counter attacking, and in principle it's working more or less ok is that one of the strikers comes slightly deep to get involved in building up while my B2B and one of the wide midfielders start to bomb forward. Since both strikers are supposedly faster and more talented than the CBs I expect them to, once in a while, get a through ball and at least create a CCC.

The problem is that many times my team decides to stop the counter, without apparent reason, and with passing options available.

I'm probably a horrible tactician but in previous versions I was able to play a direct counter attacking game.

[Bananas]

I have toyed with this idea of counter attacking to kill the game myself, but not with any great luck. I find that especially when i use the TI "pass into space", my defenders instantly starts to hoof the ball regardless of other instructions, most of the time aimlessly straight up the middle. And in the case of the opposition pressing forward, my midfield has typically collapsed deep and the opposition CBs or DM can easily just recycle possession and come right back at me. I struggle to find a way to even get my team consistently trying to get in behind the opposition backline, especially when "under the cosh" so to speak. Any hoofs tend to end up around the half way line or in my own half, seemingly without any real other real purpose than to relieve pressure. Even when the hoofee is not under any apparent pressure to speak of.

Since I really haven't found a way to even look like a counter-attacking threat except in rare and fortuituos instances (without any intention from me), I've pretty much binned the idea as a basis for closing out games and started to just try to solidify my team in my own half to see things through. I try to be more cautious in possession and stay on the ball as much as possible, dropping deeper, avoiding (or at least tone down) running with the ball in the central areas, etc. and making sure I don't have too many attack-minded players on the pitch that tend to avoid tracking back. Usually I take a winger/striker off for a defensive-minded CM with some physical traits that can help out with closing down and/or at defensive set pieces, switch one or both of my wing-backs to fullback duty and if I haven't already done so earlier in the game, have my striker come deeper to get the ball to possibly be an outlet centrally.

What I usually find being a problem when I try to close out the game are the opposition wingers that cut inside and are often allowed to dribble the ball all the way across the box to the opposite side without my fullback, who is tracking the player all the way at a safe distance, ever trying to get a challenge in. This tends to get my defense bent out of shape, usually ending in a half-arsed attempt by my opposite FB to close down from the other flank as the oppo winger gets across, leaving the other winger a sea of space behind his back, cue far-post cross to where my tracking fullback has left a gigantic hole. This happens regardless of my fullbacks' OI (tight marking, close down, tackle harder), TI (get stuck in, mark tightly), or PI (close down more, tackle harder, even tried man-marking once but that apparently equates to "run 5-10 yards behind this player and allow him to do whatever he wants") and I have no idea how to combat it. Especially frustrating when my wingers at the other end are constantly tackled and closed down, as soon as they sniff the ball, by up to four defenders at a time. And yes, I do have a DM that I feel should block the route across the box although he rarely does so (he's usually a half-back, although when closing out a game I tend to switch to anchor man or DM(D) if I pull my full-backs back).

It's obviously not always this bad, I am really having quite a bit of success of late. I do have some inkling of that my team is perhaps learning to adapt as they go as I've sort of narrowed down what I tend to do tactically when I want to close out games. Maybe they are catching on, I dunno.

[Jimmious7]

It depends on the situation. If I see the pressure pilling up, I usually put the team to Contain Mentality and use the Waste Time, Very Slow Tempo and Retain Possession TIs.

This usually works like a charm, we completely freeze the tempo and rarely get any more chances conceded.

[Torminator]

I always go more attacking when defending a lead. Sometimes i got all out attack. As mentioned above, the oppenent always leaves a lot of space in the final 10 minutes and often i profit from it. Especially when im the better club.