Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Neil Brock

Official Football Manager 2015 Feedback Thread 15.1.4

Recommended Posts

The scorelines don't affect everyone though. That has been repeatedly proven in this thread by individuals' posting high scorelines, others countering with their own experiences, and a circular argument which never achieves anything.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is simply tactical imbalance as opposed to being ME related. Had another season with my defensive minded tactics where my team conceded considerably less than 1 goal per game. It shows that defensive tactics can be almost ridiculously effective. As can all out attack ones apparently judging by the amount of people scoring (and conceding) a high amount of goals in their saves. If the AI used tactics sensibly it would turn both of those extremes into outliers. I love the fact that there is such variety so I hope the ME remains as flexible. The balance and variety seems absolutely spot on to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The scorelines don't affect everyone though. That has been repeatedly proven in this thread by individuals' posting high scorelines, others countering with their own experiences, and a circular argument which never achieves anything.
24 matches in the league played by my team 63 goals scored so around 2.62 per match, currently 2nd. That said there are some oddities Accrington who are 19th, 79 goals for and against in 22 games played = 3.59 that does seem rather high

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 matches in the league played by my team 63 goals scored so around 2.62 per match, currently 2nd. That said there are some oddities Accrington who are 19th, 79 goals for and against in 22 games played = 3.59 that does seem rather high

Would you mind checking what kind of tactics they mostly start their games with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would you mind checking what kind of tactics they mostly start their games with?

I can tell you that AI managers use their attacking formation too often when the team they are facing are considerably lower value.

An example is AI Arsene Wenger who mostly uses 4-4-2 even if his preffered is 4-2-3-1 wide. I am sure this applies for other AI managers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can tell you that AI managers use their attacking formation too often when the team they are facing are considerably lower value.

An example is AI Arsene Wenger who mostly uses 4-4-2 even if his preffered is 4-2-3-1 wide. I am sure this applies for other AI managers.

Well a flat 442 may in fact be more defensively solid if the 4231 is the one with MC's instead of DM's. That would be an example of research related tactical imbalance. I'm only guessing here of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is simply tactical imbalance as opposed to being ME related.

I completely agree that it is often an issue where human input is involved; anybody who is regularly overseeing matches where they win 4-1, 5-2 etc. should be able to recognise that. However, I think that there are enough examples of AI vs. AI matches floating about which hint at issues, which hopefully the next update can address in some form.

Some of the issue is possibly at a database level, because some of the formations seen in Serie A are very unusual for that league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would you mind checking what kind of tactics they mostly start their games with?
4-2-3-1. one defensive midfielder, full back on attack, then support on all bar the striker. Curiously Accrington’s highest scores have mostly been in their wins or draws, the most they have conceded in a loss has been three.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I completely agree that it is often an issue where human input is involved; anybody who is regularly overseeing matches where they win 4-1, 5-2 etc. should be able to recognise that. However, I think that there are enough examples of AI vs. AI matches floating about which hint at issues, which hopefully the next update can address in some form.

Some of the issue is possibly at a database level, because some of the formations seen in Serie A are very unusual for that league.

That's sort of my point. The AI managers using open tactics would create similar problems that human users experience. What I do see though is that defensive football is not only possible but also very effective. Unless it's somehow tightly tied to different playing levels (I'm still in lowerish league) then defensive tactics at least in my experience result in low scorelines. I think it's brilliant that there is such clear variety. It's been a while since that has previously been the case in FM.

4-2-3-1. one defensive midfielder, full back on attack, then support on all bar the striker.

Thanks. Would that be 4231 with two MC's and the defensive midfielder being a role or asymmetric?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's sort of my point. The AI managers using open tactics would create similar problems that human users experience. What I do see though is that defensive football is not only possible but also very effective. Unless it's somehow tightly tied to different playing levels (I'm still in lowerish league) then defensive tactics at least in my experience result in low scorelines. I think it's brilliant that there is such clear variety. It's been a while since that has previously been the case in FM.

Thanks. Would that be 4231 with two MC's and the defensive midfielder being a role or asymmetric?

Just two plain old CMs one set for support and the other for Defend, pretty much a vanilla 4-2-3-1 set wide, made a mistake with the FBs the left is set for support the right attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just two plain old CMs one set for support and the other for Defend, pretty much a vanilla 4-2-3-1 set wide, made a mistake with the FBs the left is set for support the right attack.

So just the sort of shape that would be open to constant counter attacks, especially for a team with less than brilliant individual players...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So just the sort of shape that would be open to constant counter attacks, especially for a team with less than brilliant individual players...
There is some variation, very very occasionally they use a 4-4-2 and they do vary the roles of the two central Midfield players sometimes one is set to AP and BWM but those seem to be the only two players whose roles change. It does look though that they either dominate or lose by a couple, so yes it would appear that they get caught on the counter while playing an with an attacking game plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not the first one to suggest this, but I think the 4231 Denmark should only be in the AI's arsenal as an all out attack option for shorter periods instead of being a base tactic. It's just too imbalanced and the AI isn't smart enough to cover its basic weaknesses. But those weaknesses should definitely remain a part of the ME. That's why I see it as a research problem rather than a ME deficiency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I completely agree that it is often an issue where human input is involved; anybody who is regularly overseeing matches where they win 4-1, 5-2 etc. should be able to recognise that. However, I think that there are enough examples of AI vs. AI matches floating about which hint at issues, which hopefully the next update can address in some form.

Some of the issue is possibly at a database level, because some of the formations seen in Serie A are very unusual for that league.

Exactly. And it's not just Serie A.

I don't understand how 4-2-3-1 wide or 4-3-3 dm in England (or Spain) can be 4-4-1-1 or 4-1-4-1 dm in Germany...

I don't blame the researchers, though: it's a matter of "translating" real-life formations into FM-nglish. And I believe there isn't a single person who can provide a 100% accurate translation.

And that's why I'm not a big fan of "soak tests." Goal/match ratio in EPL = 2.74. Goal/match ratio in FM = 2.75. Ergo, ME = perfect. No, it isn't, if you're not absolutely sure that AI Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd.. play exactly like real-life Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd... Which is, I know, an impossible task.

It would perhaps make more sense if soak tests were based on tactics/formations instead of competitions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the issue with defenders catching up with strikers who are clear through, does anyone think that the bigger issue is maybe not the recovery speed but rather their slow reactions that allow the chance in the first place? At least with the ones that come from long punts over the top. I think the amount of actual one on ones is very good, this is a type of chance that is rare in reality so we really shouldn't go back to having several of those every match. But it clearly looks wrong at the moment so I think defenders should be more reactive to such passes whilst their recovery having been caught out should be slower. Resulting in similar amount of actual one on ones but making it look more realistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...