FM14 : 4-2-3-1 roles can't get to work

[aminhosseiny]

My team plays as below:

FB(s) CD(d) cd(d) fb(s)

bbm(s) dlp(s)

w(a) ap(a) w(a)

f9(s)

TIs : retain possession - pass into space - hassle opponent - stay on feet - play wider(depends on opponent) - hit early crosses

As we're AC.Milan, my team could not play good enough to wins the battles in midfield and attack and we get easy goals also. 20 shots vs 20 shots against one of the weakest team in table!

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Yet again;

You need:

- SITTING CENTRAL MIDFIELD ROLES

You also have:

-Too many AM roles on attack,

-No movement between the defensive lines.

Read the pairs and combinations guide and read the basics of tactical creation.

[Quinby]

AF works great in a 4231 I've found so that'll give you more movement that a poacher.

But main thing like the response above... you need a CM on D. So I'd use a CM (D) with the DLP (S).

You also need variety on flanks. So Have one winger on Support, and one on attack. The side the WG (S) is on use a FB on (A), like WB (A) which I finds works well. Keep FB (S) on other side.

[swansongs]

Hit early crosses interferes with retaining possession, and you don't even have anyone in the box to aim for.

[Jean0987654321]

Id raher you pair the two CMs as BBM and DLP(d)...

[aderow]

My team plays as below:

FB(s) CD(d) cd(d) fb(s)

bbm(s) dlp(s)

w(a) ap(a) w(a)

f9(s)

TIs : retain possession - pass into space - hassle opponent - stay on feet - play wider(depends on opponent) - hit early crosses

As we're AC.Milan, my team could not play good enough to wins the battles in midfield and attack and we get easy goals also. 20 shots vs 20 shots against one of the weakest team in table!

I'm curious. Why did you choose the roles that you chose? Why did you choose the instructions that you chose?

[jackane24]

AF works great in a 4231 I've found so that'll give you more movement that a poacher.

But main thing like the response above... you need a CM on D. So I'd use a CM (D) with the DLP (S).

You also need variety on flanks. So Have one winger on Support, and one on attack. The side the WG (S) is on use a FB on (A), like WB (A) which I finds works well. Keep FB (S) on other side.

I know it depends on the TIs and player attributes and loads of other things, but I whole heartedly concur that a CM-D and DLP-S is by far the best partnership to play in a 4231. Playing a CM-S and DLP-D is just folly IMO. You lose the defensive stability that a CM-D offers you and the DLP is pushed much further back and more often than not will just pass to the CM-S anyway.

So yeah, CM-D and DLP-S ftw!

[aminhosseiny]

Yet again;

You need:

- SITTING CENTRAL MIDFIELD ROLES

You also have:

-Too many AM roles on attack,

-No movement between the defensive lines.

Read the pairs and combinations guide and read the basics of tactical creation.

Hey man. Thanks for ur advices, I did these changes but still no improvement:

-make one winger to IF(a) and the defend behind it fb(s) + made another side W(s) and fb(a)

-change 2 midfield players to CM(d) + DLP(s)/bbm(s) as combination and pairs page says plus AP(a)

Actually nothing has changed for me!

[aminhosseiny]

AF works great in a 4231 I've found so that'll give you more movement that a poacher.

But main thing like the response above... you need a CM on D. So I'd use a CM (D) with the DLP (S).

You also need variety on flanks. So Have one winger on Support, and one on attack. The side the WG (S) is on use a FB on (A), like WB (A) which I finds works well. Keep FB (S) on other side.

I did the exact things but no improvement bro!

[aminhosseiny]

Hit early crosses interferes with retaining possession, and you don't even have anyone in the box to aim for.

yes you are right, my bad.

[aminhosseiny]

Id raher you pair the two CMs as BBM and DLP(d)...

Not working, we are still under attack with bunch of good players against weak teams!

[aminhosseiny]

I'm curious. Why did you choose the roles that you chose? Why did you choose the instructions that you chose?

I usually choose one winger and one inside forward as two wingers one with attack and other support with two FB's in attack and support duty based on winger players. I want to retain possession and penetrate using my wingers. I prefer to use these TIs : retain possession - pass into space - hassle opponent - stay on feet and if it is needed sometimes I add play wider based my opponent playing style.

[turns88]

Pass into space and retain possession doesn't really make sense, passing into space makes it much harder to retain possession as it's more risky passing. I would choose one or the other.

[aminhosseiny]

Pass into space and retain possession doesn't really make sense, passing into space makes it much harder to retain possession as it's more risky passing. I would choose one or the other.

Totally right. I'll do it.

Thanks

[jackane24]

Hey man. Thanks for ur advices, I did these changes but still no improvement:

-make one winger to IF(a) and the defend behind it fb(s) + made another side W(s) and fb(a)

-change 2 midfield players to CM(d) + DLP(s)/bbm(s) as combination and pairs page says plus AP(a)

Actually nothing has changed for me!

Line-up with the FB-S, DLP-S and W-A down one side with the FB-A, CM-D and IF-S down the other.

[aminhosseiny]

Line-up with the FB-S, DLP-S and W-A down one side with the FB-A, CM-D and IF-S down the other.

Again not working so well, we were underdogs again!

[jackane24]

My team plays as below:

FB(s) CD(d) cd(d) fb(s)

bbm(s) dlp(s)

w(a) ap(a) w(a)

f9(s)

TIs : retain possession - pass into space - hassle opponent - stay on feet - play wider(depends on opponent) - hit early crosses

As we're AC.Milan, my team could not play good enough to wins the battles in midfield and attack and we get easy goals also. 20 shots vs 20 shots against one of the weakest team in table!

The false 9 will just interfere with the AP-A. That's an issue.

Retain possession & pass into space = I'm not a fan of this because you're asking them to do 2 different things. What do you want this to achieve? If you want your creative players playing killer balls, then get rid of pass into space & just give your creative players the 'more direct passes' PI.

I'd also push higher up, to get the defense closer to the midfield.

What mentality do you play?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Hey man. Thanks for ur advices, I did these changes but still no improvement:

-make one winger to IF(a) and the defend behind it fb(s) + made another side W(s) and fb(a)

-change 2 midfield players to CM(d) + DLP(s)/bbm(s) as combination and pairs page says plus AP(a)

Actually nothing has changed for me!

The thing is, when an Inside Forward cuts inside you're not going to get wing support on that flank because the Full back stays near enough on the half way line as opposed to getting up and offering an outlet. Generally, if an inside forward is used, then a wing-back is the 'support' on the flanks but, using a wing back is going to be asking more questions of your defence because you'll now have one less player in the defensive strata when you overload the attack, making you vulnerable to counter-attacks.

The real life 4-2-3-1 utilises a double-pivot in the centre midfield pairing, usually at the DM strata and not the CM strata and generally uses ultra-attacking wing-backs on the basis that you'll have four 'sitting' defenders (the two CB's and the two DM's - who are usually DM/DM or DLP/DM or whatever), also generally because the defensive midfield is so 'withdrawn' from the attacking midfield strata, logically you would have an Advance Playmaker sitting behind an advanced forward, with an Inside forward/Advance playmaker/winger combination. This ensures you have 6 players moving up into attack and 4 sitting with 6 back in defence if the opposition hold onto the ball.

Utilising a BBM will mean you're another man short in defence, 3 men holding the line against a counter is asking for trouble. If you go for a 4-2-3-1 with the centre midfield in the CM strata you need to expect that there is a bit of vulnerability there, since the opposition have the area between the CM/CD to operate in and you'll be prone to having a CB move out of position to attempt to stem the flow, also a long ball will literally bypass your midfield, assuming that happens and a CB moves forward to get rid of it, if he misses or the opposition beat him to it, you now only realistically have one defender holding the line.

That is why it has been stated a few times that the proper tactic is a 4-2-3-1 DM, and because of the nature of the formation it is quite difficult to pull off for most people, personally, I wouldn't bother with the 4-2-3-1, there's plenty of tactical guru's here who suggest using a 4-1-4-1 and/or a 4-4-1-1 which, you can modify to be a 4-2-3-1 in attack and still offer you defensive stability that a 4-2-3-1 CM formation fails to give. Unless you outmatch the opposition (I.e. Chelsea vs Kettering Town) I'd honestly consider swapping to a more defensively stable formation, alternatively if you persist with the 4-2-3-1 you're going to have to accept its inherent weakness if you stick with CM players.

These websites give an analysis of the formation, note that both imply the midfield is in the DM strata;

http://www.soccerpilot.com/tactic/articles/introduction-to-the-4-2-3-1-formation,-soccer.html

http://worldsoccer.about.com/od/skillsandtactics/a/4-2-3-1.htm

Both note that it is an extremely difficult formation to pull off. Hope it helps.

[aminhosseiny]

The false 9 will just interfere with the AP-A. That's an issue.

Retain possession & pass into space = I'm not a fan of this because you're asking them to do 2 different things. What do you want this to achieve? If you want your creative players playing killer balls, then get rid of pass into space & just give your creative players the 'more direct passes' PI.

I'd also push higher up, to get the defense closer to the midfield.

What mentality do you play?

Both of your advices seems to be corrected. You know the problem is I could not help my team to overcome over equal or a bit weaker team than my team. I know I did not pay attention for mixture of roles between lines(I always pay attention to roles adjustment for each line separately), but I was wondering how should I help my team to get wins over equal or a bit weaker teams!

[Dunnyball]

I'm open to scrutiny here but I find the AP (a) starts from a very deep position in midfield which restricts passing options as midfield gets too congested. Ideally he should be in the hole As a link between midfield and striker. AP (s) does this much better IMO

[UTT]

I'm open to scrutiny here but I find the AP (a) starts from a very deep position in midfield which restricts passing options as midfield gets too congested. Ideally he should be in the hole As a link between midfield and striker. AP (s) does this much better IMO

Im in complete agreement but in order to get the wingers tracking back you need them on support duty. This means that the AMC really does need to be on attack. Add in roam from positions or change to a trequartista for more variety of movement

[aminhosseiny]

I'm open to scrutiny here but I find the AP (a) starts from a very deep position in midfield which restricts passing options as midfield gets too congested. Ideally he should be in the hole As a link between midfield and striker. AP (s) does this much better IMO

it changed performance a little bit, but could not help my team to be dominant enough....