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js150

[FM15] - Building and developing a 3-5-2/5-3-2

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Introduction

Last year, after many years of using other people tactics, tweaking them slightly to my needs, I started building my own tactics from scratch.

I think this came from two things. Firstly, from what I perceived, the simplified tactic creator and secondly Llama3's brilliant topic on Pairs and Combinations:

Pairs & Combinations

So I was looking forward to building a tactic based on the same theories this time round. I've always been one to play 4 at the back, usually playing a 4-2-3-1 formation but coming into this years FM I knew that would be hard to achieve from the start, due to Leeds not having any wingers in their squad. Instead of signing any wingers I decided to tryout a new formation.

I decided on 3-5-2/5-3-2, this being down to having some very attacking full backs that could provided the needed width along with an outstanding No.10 in Adryan.

I want to try create a possession based Tactic with an emphasis on short passing and pressure on the opponent when possession is lost.

The Formation and Player Roles

------------GK(D)------------

----CB©---CB(S)---CB©----

CWB(A)------------------WB(S)

------DLP(D)-----APM(S)------

------------SS(A)------------

-------F9(S)-----AF(A)-------

Player Roles Overview

To decide on the player roles I did 2 things:

1. Grouped players together by pitch position and tried to find a balance within that (taking much from Llama3's philosophies of Pairs & Combinations).

2. Because I only have 1 wide player each side I have split the team in 2 to try and keep it as balanced as possible.

I'll start by looking at point 2. We will ignore the GK & CBs as they all have the same roles and duties as well as ignoring the ACM as he has a central role.

I have tried to spread the players with attacking duties over both sides of the pitch. Down the right we have 1 player with attack 1 with support and 1 with defend and down the left we have 2 with support and 1 with attack.

If you look at the formation in this way, splitting it into 2 halves, I think you can see it's more balanced than having say the CWB(A) on the same side of the pitch as the AF(A)

Now for point 1. Again we will ignoring the GK & CBs (for the same points as before) along with the Wing Backs as they are the only wide players, no pairs or groups to look at there.

Grouping the 2 CM's and ACM together they each have different duties: 1 support, 1 defend & 1 attack. This should help create better movement in the team, making sure each player occupies different parts of the pitch and makes different runs to those around him.

Grouping the ACM with the F9 ST together they again have different duties, the ACM attack duty and the ST support duty. I hope here to create a False 9 False 10 situation, the False 9 drops deep pulling defenders with him allowing space for the False 10 to move into (the False 10 here being the Shadow Striker at ACM). Again the difference in duties should mean they make different runs and occupy different parts of the pitch to each other.

Grouping the 2 ST's together the same rules apply, different duties to created different movement etc. With the ACM and F9 ST hopefully moving the opposition defense around the Advanced Forwards role is to be ready to capitalize on any mistake. He is also there to chase down misplaced through balls or clearances from deep, win possession and lay off passes to his teammates.

Mentality, Shape, Team & Player Instructions

Mentality: Control

Shape: Structured

Retain Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass Into Space

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defence

Close Down More

Lower Tempo

GK: Roll It Out, Distribute to Specific Team-Mate (RWB)

CB's: Pass it Shorter

RWB: Pass it Shorter, Close Down More

LWB: Pass it Shorter, Close Down More

CM(DLP): Pass it Shorter, Close Down More

CM(APM): Pass it Shorter, Close Down More

ACM: Pass it Shorter

ST(F9): Pass it Shorter

ST(AF): Pass it Shorter, Close Down More, Move Into Channels

Mentality

As mentioned before I want to try create a possession based Tactic with an emphasis on short passing and pressure on the opponent when possession is lost. I have set the Mentality to Control as I think that fits in with what I am trying to do and I believe it ties in well with the Retain Possession and Lower Tempo Instructions especially.

Shape

The Shape is set to Structured, I have some very specific Player roles and as such want them to see a lot of the ball. Sticking to a Structured shape should hopefully force the ball through those players, with those moving more freely than the others.

Team Instructions

The majority of the team instructions are there to try and force the possession, short passing mentality onto the players. Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Work Ball Into Box, Play Out of Defence and Lower Tempo should all add to this mentality. I hope that Pass Into Space should add to the movement of the team, forcing players to make more runs for each other. Finally I hope with Close Down More the players will pressure the other team when possession is lost to win the ball back quickly.

Player Instructions

To try start the passing game from the back the Goalkeeper has the two instructions of Roll It Out and Distribute to Specific Team-Mate (RWB).

To try and drill in the philosophy even more every player has the Pass it Shorter instruction and the majority have Close Down More. The exceptions to Close Down More being the CB's, ACM and F9 ST. I want my CB's to stick to their positions and not get pulled about too much so that is why I haven't given them this PI. As for the ACM and F9 ST I see them as the 2 main creators of the side, I don't want them closing down too much as I want them to be ready in space/to make runs when one of the other players wins the ball back. It is everyone else's role to close down the opposition and win the ball back quickly.

The only other PI I gave to any player is the Move Into Channels PI to the AF ST to add to the movement of the team.

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I'll post up the tactic later. Just a few questions if anyone has an opinion on these would be appreciated:

Do you think my CB's would benefit from the "Hold Position" PI? If they are the ones I don't want to be involved in attacks and hold the back line at all times it makes sense for them to have this right?

Would any of the attacking 3 benefit from the "Hold up Ball" PI? I did have it on the AF but as he is the furthest forward and the one leading the line I wasn't sure if it was beneficial.

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I would make the two outside CBs stoppers so they close down the wide positions when players get behind your aggressive full-backs.

Combined with that a covering centreback in the middle might be valuable since the rest of your team will be leaving their shape to close down a lot. Possibly even a sweeper.

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I have been thinking of going with that setup, was going to give it a go when I'd signed some more competent CB's. I'll give it a go, would going with those duties go against the Hold Position PI on those CBs?

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I don't think so. Hold position refers to attacking movement when you're on the ball, which I don't think CBs do much of anyway.

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Interesting - I've also decided to give 352 a go and also as Leeds! I usually play as Leeds first then start a long term save with a lower league team.

My reasons for trying 352 are similar to yours but also because it's a formation I've not tried for ages. I like 2 striker formations and I wanted to have a go at three at the back.

The first thing I'd say is that you have a lot of specialised roles for a fluid formation, at least 4, which if you follow the guidelines in wwfan's guide would lead towards structured or very structured.

I've decided to go a step further into the unknown and play with a position I've never used before, a libero. I have the two DCs on defend and bellusci as the libero. I have the MCR and MCL's as central midfield defend and attack respectively, Adryan as treq attack and my front 2 as false 9 and advanced forward.

Seems to be working ok so far, getting a lot of assists from the two wing backs and antenucci is scoring loads as the false 9. We are currently sixth and should really be higher - somehow lost 2 1 to Rotherham despite dominating the game (we had 6 cccs to their 1 and their goals came from goal mouth scrambles following set pieces). Billy sharp missed a load of chances.

I'm getting my head round the more stroppy player reactions - I managed to upset most of the squad by fining Pearce for a poor performance - a rating of 5.2 deserves a fine in my book!

I'd be interested to see how you get on.

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Good point, it was an article I remember reading last year but it had slipped my mind. I'll try moving to rigid.

I've already had success with a previous version of this formation, won promotion in the 1st season coming in 2nd. I'm now half way though the second season in mid table.

The tactic has changed a lot though and still is changing. I think I'll start up a new save to try it out when I have got it more refined. See how it goes from the start of the game.

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Interesting - I've also decided to give 352 a go and also as Leeds! I usually play as Leeds first then start a long term save with a lower league team.

My reasons for trying 352 are similar to yours but also because it's a formation I've not tried for ages. I like 2 striker formations and I wanted to have a go at three at the back.

The first thing I'd say is that you have a lot of specialised roles for a fluid formation, at least 4, which if you follow the guidelines in wwfan's guide would lead towards structured or very structured.

I've decided to go a step further into the unknown and play with a position I've never used before, a libero. I have the two DCs on defend and bellusci as the libero. I have the MCR and MCL's as central midfield defend and attack respectively, Adryan as treq attack and my front 2 as false 9 and advanced forward.

Seems to be working ok so far, getting a lot of assists from the two wing backs and antenucci is scoring loads as the false 9. We are currently sixth and should really be higher - somehow lost 2 1 to Rotherham despite dominating the game (we had 6 cccs to their 1 and their goals came from goal mouth scrambles following set pieces). Billy sharp missed a load of chances.

I'm getting my head round the more stroppy player reactions - I managed to upset most of the squad by fining Pearce for a poor performance - a rating of 5.2 deserves a fine in my book!

I'd be interested to see how you get on.

I really like the idea of that, suits his real life play.

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Good opening post this. I'm using a 5-3-2 with complete wing backs and a flat MC three.

I think you can play the central DCs all on Defend and no Stoppers, as even CWBs seem to track back well in FM15.

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Good opening post this. I'm using a 5-3-2 with complete wing backs and a flat MC three.

I think you can play the central DCs all on Defend and no Stoppers, as even CWBs seem to track back well in FM15.

My main concern is that his wing backs are set to close down more. As the only wide presence in the team surely that will lead to them getting pulled forward quite often against most setups where two players inhabit each flank.

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Good opening post this. I'm using a 5-3-2 with complete wing backs and a flat MC three.

I think you can play the central DCs all on Defend and no Stoppers, as even CWBs seem to track back well in FM15.

I'm currently playing with Inter and started off with a similar set up. However, when I played a lower team like Sassuolo, they always seemed to lump the ball and it would bypass my CWB and their striker or AMC would chase it down. Changed CWB on one side to a WB-S and added stopper duties to my center halves and that seemed to do the trick. We seem to recycle the ball a lot better now.

I'm currently lining up with a midfield trio of a DM-S, AP-A and RP-S with DLF-S and AF-A up top. The stars of my season so far have been the two playmakers, both Hernanes and Guarin seem perfect for their roles and I also have Kovacic in reserve. The RP-S is a godsend. He gets everywhere. Offers an outlet in tight spaces.

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My current attempt at 3 at the back with San Marino

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Had enough of sitting back and getting pummelled all last season, trying to be a bit better on the ball instead of jusT hoofing it long and having it come straight back at me. Want to get us passing well and retaining possession (they cant score if they dont have the ball :p) while also being a threat on the counter where possible

Any striking errors or suggestions on anything I should change to improve it?

Only one thing, I would prefer to have LM/RM rather than full backs or wing backs due to personnel limitations :)

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I tend to do the opposite with my back three; I have the stopper as the middle one, to try and mitigate any damage through not having a DMC, and then have two covering guys in behind. If a ball gets played over the top of my wing backs, the nearest centre half will often move out that way to cover, leaving two in the middle to deal with any crosses.

I've played around quite a bit with my midfield trio (really wanted to use the roaming playmaker and did for a bit, but it didn't really fit in with a 5-3-2 shape). Have settled on a box to box (S) and a central midfield (D) either side of an advanced playmaker (A). Then one wing back on attack and one on support, with the defensive-minded CM covering for the attacking wing back.

Currently producing some excellent results and nice football with Leamington in the CN.

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i started using js150's version with a few tweaks here and there (playing offsides was one as the defenders were a bit lapse not keeping in a line and the opposition breaking through) i have got leeds promoted with 102 points. playing Doukara at AF has been amazing he was pushing on for 30 goals. the only frustrating thing is not keeping enough clean sheets, but with the amount of goals i scored and the games i won isnt a huge issue. So.. Onto the premier league!!

im in two minds with changing the trequarista to the one thats more rigid (cant remember the name)(it just came to me.. Enganche) as that suits adryan more on his positions, but i like him floating around. i purchased him and del fabro through their loans to carry on the next season.

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GK, DC, DC - HB - WB(A), WB(A) - CM(S), DLP(D), CM(A) - DLS(S), AF(A) seems to be working well for me. Conceded 11 in 25 PL games and avaerage about 58-62% possession. It's nice that three at the back is now an actual option again. :)

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I'm currently try to build this formation for my Juventus side, but currently no succes. Could anyone give me useful tips?

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i now have 8 games left in the premier league im 13th looking pretty safe for a mid table finish. i have been dropping the AMC to a MC but still attacking minded in the "harder" games. sometimes has worked.. i beat man u in the fa cup, wins against arsenal and liverpool and draws with chelsea and man u in the league the odd game i have lost 4-1 to everton and i thi think it was spurs. Im in the fa cup semi final vs sunderland so im hoping i get to the final but the summer im going to have to have to re assess my squad, i think the key thing will be seeing how this formation does for getting into europe

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I persisted with my 532 libero tactic mentioned above.

After a poor start to the season (probably caused by a combination of me upsetting the players and underestimating how long it would take to get the tactic familiarity to fluid) we improved steadily. I won the last ten games of the season to finish fourth and went up via the playoffs.

A few observations:

through new position training and playing regularly in the position, Byram was natural as a wing back by the end of the season and belusci was natural in the sweeper position.

As expected a lot of assists from the flanks - Byram had 26 from rwb and Warnock / Taylor had 19 between them from lwb.

Antenucci at dlf scored 27 and sharp / doukara scored 18 between them.

Started the next season in the prem with a prediction of 20th. Started well, got as high as 7th but faded second half of the season eventually finishing 15th.

Now, I'm wondering if this is just a case of my players being lower in terms of ability than the other teams or a fundamental problem with my tactics. In the prem we struggled to create chances and score goals. To be fair I have been giving some of the young strikers a game as they have high potential but it has been much harder going. Byram still led the team in assists but only had 11. Antenucci only managed 8 goals from the dlf position.

I've tweaked the formation slightly for season three to this :

AF (A) DLF (S)

AM (A)

RPM (S) CM (D)

WB (S) CWB (A)

CD (D) CD (D)

L (A)

GK (D)

I changed to wing back support on the left side to give myself a bit more cover, with the cm (d) covering for the CWB on the right.

I am wondering whether or not to abandon my libero and go back to a flat 3 at the back with perhaps a stopper duty in the middle.

I changed Adryan from a treq to an am (a) as I wasn't seeing much movement beyond the forwards.

I'm playing standard with flexible and I also sometimes play counter.

I have the gk set to distribute to centre backs but no other player instructions.

I am reluctant to use too many team instructions - I tend to watch the first 15 mins or so and then make adjustments. Having said that, recently I have been starting with a higher defensive line and more closing down as we seemed to be standing off too much and with the libero I do have someone covering behind the defensive line.

Any suggestions / criticisms / ideas or do I just need better players?

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I started my 3rd season and created one tactic with 3 at the back. It worked great in pre season so I decided to start the season with it. Won my first game of the season. Also had good friendly away to Juventus, lost 1-0(didn' beat them once since the start of the save) but it looked quite good at least in the first half.

Menatlity:control + fluid

TI:shorter passing,push higher up,close down more

DCR - CD/D

DC - BPD/D

DCL - CD/D

WBR - WB/S

WBL - CWB/A

MCR - DLP/S

MCL - CM/D

AMR - IF/A

AML - AP/S

STC - CF/S

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My 532 has been doing ok, but I've realised that opponents are frequently getting around 50 crosses a game. Not completing many but still plenty of goals coming from that. I have 3 at the back then 2 wing backs on wb support, with 2 central midfielders as dlp s and cm d, with an am s in front. Any ideas how I can cut down the number of crosses?

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@js150 your Tactic works great !

i just adjusted the CB to have Stopper Cover Stopper (to strengthen the Defense)

other than that it works. Playing in Gibraltar (13/0/0 streak) right now after having won the CL with Gladbach (Germany) and Liverpool ...all using that tactic ;)

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Using most of the OP's tactic. I am have great success. Only things i've changed is the middle CB is a stopper, the top striker is a poacher and I've remove work ball into box.

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Playing as Inter, I've found it quite problematic to play with a False 9 & Trequartista. Due to the lack of false 9 available (Palacio is injured), playing Icardi there just got in the way of Hernanes and they both occupied a rather small space thus making them quit ineffective. I also found that by setting PI's for Pass Shorter and TI Play Through The Middle meant that play became quite congested outside the box, with F9, Trequartista & RMP (Guarin)(To a lesser extent) pretty much fighting for the centre of the pitch. And ifI was to focus through the flanks and stretch play it would mean that most games Nagatomo and Dodo would be isolated on the wings as most teams play with a full back and a winger. I am finding the 3-5-2 really hard to work out!

If anyone has any tips on what I can do to add a bit of width to my play then it would be great appreciated ! (Or just general tips!)

Thanks!

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Playing as Inter, I've found it quite problematic to play with a False 9 & Trequartista. Due to the lack of false 9 available (Palacio is injured), playing Icardi there just got in the way of Hernanes and they both occupied a rather small space thus making them quit ineffective. I also found that by setting PI's for Pass Shorter and TI Play Through The Middle meant that play became quite congested outside the box, with F9, Trequartista & RMP (Guarin)(To a lesser extent) pretty much fighting for the centre of the pitch. And ifI was to focus through the flanks and stretch play it would mean that most games Nagatomo and Dodo would be isolated on the wings as most teams play with a full back and a winger. I am finding the 3-5-2 really hard to work out!

If anyone has any tips on what I can do to add a bit of width to my play then it would be great appreciated ! (Or just general tips!)

Thanks!

I decided on the False 9 & Trequartista setup as the players I had fit those roles. I started playing as Leeds and built the bulk of this tactic after gaining promotion to the Premiership after the 1st season.

I already had Adryan who was perfect for the Trequartista role and had signed Patrick Roberts who was Naturally a ACM. I saw Roberts stats and decided I wanted him as a striker, more accuratly a False 9. So I was driven by the players I had. If you don't have the right players I'd try changing the roles but keep in mind how the players around each other will interact with each other and whether those roles will work well as a pair/3.

Same goes for the centre mids, a Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend) and Roaming Playmaker (Support) maybe too attacking to start out with when you take into account how attacking the front 3 are. Still make sure to have a variation of duties though when you make these changes.

Also I've removed the Exploit the Middle Instruction as I find the Wing Backs are key to this formation. Don't have an instruction here either way for middle or flanks as you should be looking to use the whole pitch with this formation.

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Updated of where I'm at:

------------GK(D)------------

----CB(S)---CB©---CB(S)----

CWB(A)------------------WB(S)

------DLP(D)-----APM(S)------

------------SS(A)------------

-------F9(S)-----AF(A)-------

Mentality: Control

Shape: Rigid

Retain Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass Into Space

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defence

Close Down More

Lower Tempo

Changes I've made are:

1. Changed the CB's from 3 x CB(D) to 2 x CB(S) & 1 x CB©. The two Stoppers are the wider Center Backs, hopefully closing down players who get behind the Wing Backs with the CB© covering for them.

2. Changed the RPM(S) to a APM(S). I think the Roaming Playmaker was contributing to the team not retaining possession as much as I had wanted. Hopefully using a APM(S) will mean he finds little pockets of space and is more available for a pass than the RPM(S) was.

3. Changed to TRQ(A) to a SS(A). This is mainly down to a change in personnel in the team, but also I think the SS(A) will work better in a F9 F10 situation than the TRQ(A) was.

4. Removed the Exploit the Middle Team Instruction. With only having one wide man on either side of the pitch I originally thought keeping the attacks to the middle of the pitch would be best. I've found one of the strengths of this formation however is utilizing the whole pitch so removing this TI was probably the right call. You do need very well rounded wing backs for this I find though.

These changes saw me win the first 6 games of the Premier League only conceding 1 goal, also the front 3 each have 4-6 goals each and I have been reaching 58%+ possession. I will concede however that this was with a team that is 5 seasons in so not sure if these results would be similar with a weaker squad.

The next thing I'm going to try out is increasing the Tempo. As the front 3 players are arguably my best I think if I could get the ball forward to them quicker it could provide more positive results, I'm mindful of how this will impact the possession though.

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Bumping this, somewhat cheekily :o , to link an article I wrote elsewhere about a 5-3-2 I have been using, which seems to have gone down pretty well.

I tried to recreate it here, but it got a bit complicated faffing about with resizing images, and I'm a lazy bugger :)

http://whenseagullsfollowthetrawler.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/a-change-of-course-4-1-4-1-to-5-3-2/

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Bumping this, somewhat cheekily :o , to link an article I wrote elsewhere about a 5-3-2 I have been using, which seems to have gone down pretty well.

I tried to recreate it here, but it got a bit complicated faffing about with resizing images, and I'm a lazy bugger :)

http://whenseagullsfollowthetrawler.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/a-change-of-course-4-1-4-1-to-5-3-2/

Wonderful article and has given me plenty of thought on how to evolve my current 3-5-2 at Middlesbrough.

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Wonderful article and has given me plenty of thought on how to evolve my current 3-5-2 at Middlesbrough.

Thanks :thup:

Hadn't written anything down in ages, but it was nice to do so again.

That tactic creates some brilliant attacking movement, and I may end up writing one of two more things to highlight that. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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Lots of you have built brilliant systems with 3 at the back there. As for the duties on the back 3; I tend to go by the rule that if there is no DMC I tend to play the stopper in the centre, to cover the space in front of the defence, but if there is a DMC then to use stoppers on the outside. Of course, the attributes of your defenders are very important, and their side preferences etc. For instance, Per Mertesacker is not very aggressive, and picks his moments with his tackles. He prefers the centre in a 3-man defence. So even if my system wanted it, he would be a poor Stopper in the middle - as such he would always be a Defend/Cover for me.

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Bumping this, somewhat cheekily :o , to link an article I wrote elsewhere about a 5-3-2 I have been using, which seems to have gone down pretty well.

I tried to recreate it here, but it got a bit complicated faffing about with resizing images, and I'm a lazy bugger :)

http://whenseagullsfollowthetrawler.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/a-change-of-course-4-1-4-1-to-5-3-2/

Nice writeup. Giving me ideas of reviving my back 3 formation.

Btw, how do you make the names of the players appear on the 2d pitch?

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Nice writeup. Giving me ideas of reviving my back 3 formation.

Btw, how do you make the names of the players appear on the 2d pitch?

Just pause a match then hold down Ctrl (Cmd on Mac) and click each player one by one.

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I was just using a 3-5-2 this weekend and one thing I noticed was that even with the flat back 3 set to defend, the central man tended to behave stopperish- he was regularly charging out and closing down and causing me problems. I set him to a cover role and it helped some with that, but I have noticed that one of them seems to go into stopper mode more often than he ought to.

EDIT: was using a flat midfield five as well with one DLP-D. I tried him out in a DM spot for a bit, but that didn't seem to "stop the stopper" :)

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So I've started a new game with Leeds for 5.3, I've also updated the 1st post to the setup I will be aiming to play with. 2 player roles will be slightly different until I get the right players in but the setup in the 1st post is what I'm aiming for. Starting out from scratch should give a good indication of how the tactic is working, I'll update with results/findings. Here's the slightly different setup I'll be using from the start:

------------GK(D)------------

----CB©---CB(S)---CB©----

CWB(A)------------------WB(S)

------DLP(D)-----APM(S)------

------------TQ(A)------------

-------TM(S)-----AF(A)-------

Mentality: Control

Shape: Structured

Retain Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass Into Space

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defence

Close Down More

Lower Tempo

The Goalkeeper has two instructions of Roll It Out and Distribute to Specific Team-Mate (RWB).

Every player has the Pass it Shorter instruction and the majority have Close Down More the exception being the CB's who don't have it as I want them to stick to their positions/roles.

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i started a new game about a month or so ago after having to format my computer.

ive used this tactic again few tweaks here and there im in the 3rd season and im 4th in the prem after about 10 games... my problem is im not scoring enough. my defence is fine i think ive let in 11 and scored 18. a few games conceding 2 & 3 now ive got a very young squad im a bit concerned about my scoring, ive nicked the win in a few games in the last 10/5 usualy after bringing ezequel ponce on. my oldest striker is javier hernandez whos 27 i think the rest being under 23... all with very good potentials 168+ my dilema at the moment is.... do i just keep persevering with them because its not like im doing bad tbh im over-acheiving or do i bring someone in? an older head 29/30 years old, proven scorer? but then i still think its a bit of a gamble.

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