Building A Tactic From The Beginning - THE DISCUSSION THREAD!

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I like the thread, I'm actually going to steal your ideas Cleon.

My friend has persuaded me to go back to the LLM challenge, so I want to go back to the 4-4-2.

First I want to decide on my style of play, I figure, I always do well with a Counter/Structured set up and it suits me, I like my team behind the ball, in position, before they decide to press anything. So I've already decided pretty early I won't be closing down too much. Maybe, I'll have to adjust the backline length, because the lack of a DM is always a worry for me.

So here's my decisions so far:

GK/D - I don't want a sweeper keeper at the lower levels, a solid reliable no nonsense lad should do me just fine.

DC/D + DC/D - Stay in line and hold position. I've taken note that in a one striker system maybe, I could use a cover/stopper, but I reckon 90% of the time I'll want to stay in line.

CM/D - A given, though I'm very tempted to switch it to a DLP/D if I ever get an absolute beast a creative defensive minded player at some point.

DLF/S and AF/A - Simple, effective, a deeper 'hole' player alongside a line-leader. That should give the opposition trouble.

--

Decisions about other positions;

I need to decide on the wide players and the central midfield partner. Like yourself, I want to use the Roaming Playmaker. In fact, I think I will, just to finally see him in action in full. A box to box might be a better option with the lack of creative options at the lower leagues but for now RP/S should be suitable.

I've also pinched your idea to go with an AML, I had been considering it anyway because I've been influenced somewhat by reading the old-school United formations. They had a 4-4-2 with one WM/S (Beckham) alongside a W/A (Giggs) but I wanted to flash forward a bit further to the Ronaldo-era, and he definitely played a more advanced position. So AML seems a suitable fit. Raumdeuter seems interesting, I'll go with that over an Inside Forward, just for giggles.

So I'm left with three positions; MR/RB/LB. I don't fancy a Wide Playmaker, but I'm divided as to whether to go for an out and out winger or a WM. Because I'm using a Raumdeuter I have a strange feeling I'll need a WB/A or CWB/A on the left to actually get that high on the left flank. That leads me to think a CM/D on the left alongside the DLF/S is the best way to 'stagger' things and provide defensive cover.

So on the right, I now have to go away and think about the RM's position. I could go WM, I haven't used that role, ever to be honest. A winger could be a pace player who relies on trickery, if he does that I'll need a WB/S to cover his runs or he could be a W/S with a WB/A to get beyond him, but I'd rather a WM/S with a WB/A since it just seems to mesh better for me.

I'll get back to that at a later point tonight.

Instructions wise? I don't particularly favour any style of possession, sure, I like short passes, but I'm not afraid of the good old punt-ball. I may forgo team instructions for now and let them play a mixed style or the 'default' counter style, so short passes unless a counter is on. I will keep 'work ball into box' and issue 'float crosses' alongside 'push higher' to try and compact the back line. I'll also add 'prevent short distribution', I'd rather they go long and into the more compact midfield/defence than get the opportunity to pass it about and lure one of the players out of position. Might change though.

Off to decide on the right wing combination... I'm going to be Basingstoke, so it should be a laugh.

[Kuldaniss]

@ isignedupfornorealreason

I'm doing something similar right now, also playing LLM and using a 442. After playing with St Albans for one season and guiding them to 2nd place but didn't manage to promote after playoffs, I got a job in the Vanarama North and took over a team that just got relegated from the conferece ( can't remember the name right now). I wanted to play a direct style 442, but direct passing wasn't really my thing so I tried to implement that by playing shorter passing and higher tempo. It's still in development phase, because I'm playing Attacking mentality and that already sets tempo to high so I'm still tweaking things but the team is playing well. The thing is I went for the standard 442, with FBs , Wingers , BBM and CM(D) and DLF(S) AF(A) up front ; mainly because those were the players I had available , I have a really good winger on the right side and a very good AF up front. I saw you picked a Reumdeuter on the left and for similar reasons I'm thinking that my left side needs a player who cuts inside, but I don't want him to be as aggresive as the Reumdeuter, I want him to be more of a assister. When I'll get home I will experiment with that and figure out if I want him on the same side as the BBM so they can link up really well and have a CWB(A) behind him, or WB(A).

Some other TIs I have are Run at Defense and Clear ball to flanks, also subject to change, but these were the ones that I felt were needed at the start to implement a strong direct football using my pacy wingers and my clinical striker. I'm really interested on how your WM(S) will perform, Wide Playmaker seems suited for what I want but I feel that he will take away from the directness of my play and I don't want that.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

@ isignedupfornorealreason

I'm doing something similar right now, also playing LLM and using a 442. After playing with St Albans for one season and guiding them to 2nd place but didn't manage to promote after playoffs, I got a job in the Vanarama North and took over a team that just got relegated from the conferece ( can't remember the name right now). I wanted to play a direct style 442, but direct passing wasn't really my thing so I tried to implement that by playing shorter passing and higher tempo. It's still in development phase, because I'm playing Attacking mentality and that already sets tempo to high so I'm still tweaking things but the team is playing well. The thing is I went for the standard 442, with FBs , Wingers , BBM and CM(D) and DLF(S) AF(A) up front ; mainly because those were the players I had available , I have a really good winger on the right side and a very good AF up front. I saw you picked a Reumdeuter on the left and for similar reasons I'm thinking that my left side needs a player who cuts inside, but I don't want him to be as aggresive as the Reumdeuter, I want him to be more of a assister. When I'll get home I will experiment with that and figure out if I want him on the same side as the BBM so they can link up really well and have a CWB(A) behind him, or WB(A).

Some other TIs I have are Run at Defense and Clear ball to flanks, also subject to change, but these were the ones that I felt were needed at the start to implement a strong direct football using my pacy wingers and my clinical striker. I'm really interested on how your WM(S) will perform, Wide Playmaker seems suited for what I want but I feel that he will take away from the directness of my play and I don't want that.

That's great. I backtracked a bit on my own tactic, I've dispensed with the Raumdeuter for a winger and switched the right side to a WM! I didn't expect to but, the players I had available just weren't really that good for what I had listed. So I needed to juggle things around a bit! Fun times!

[jukilo]

Right, after my last update I've some more news for you. Let me do an update about our participation in all competitions:

League

I'm first after 9 games, with 8 victories and 1 draw. Porto is at 7 points from me and Sporting at 14. I've the best attack (23 goals) and, more importantly, the best defense with only 5 goals conceded. I'm very happy with this.

I've beat Sporting, Porto and Braga the main contenders for the title besides me. The football is what I'm looking for. Organized, disciplined and creating a good amount of chances. Some 1-0's but I really don't care about this. I just want to win.

In the league our 4-1-4-1 is proving to be enough for winning. I make small adjustments from what I see. I change Mentality, Roles and duties and TI's essentially. The only big concern is our left side with nearly almost the goals that we suffer coming from this side. I believe it's almost due to the player (Siqueira) always conceding space in his back. What bugs me the most is that we suffer most in defensive organization and not in transition. That damn through ball behind the center back and the full back. He was playing due to his offensive charactheristics but I'm open to change this. Specially changing the player and make the right back more offensive. I've swapped the MC (D) to the left side of center midfield to combat this but it's not enough. So, in the end, I've changed the role and the player.

Against stubborn sides, I just change the roles of the midfield and lower the mentality to gain space and make more bodies to attack the opponent area. If this is not enough, I become more aggresive and put a 2nd striker and push the dline higher. But this is only the ultimate option, if nothing more works.

Champions League

My group is Anderlecht, Shakthar and PSV. Not too difficult but can be very tricky.

Our campaign started with an embarassing defeat too Anderlecht at home. 3-0. I must admit that I understimated them and I paid big time.. They scored an early goal and that make all the difference. Next, was a trip to PSV and we lose 2-0. This 2 games were played with the 4-1-4-1. The former was played against a wide 4-2-2-2 and the later against a 4-2-3-1.

After the last defeat it was obvious to me that our 4-1-4-1 wasn't working in Europe. It needed a change. As I wasn't open to change the wingers and I needed a 4 man in the midfield to become more competitive in Europe I tried a strikerless 4-5-1. The shape was as follows (Very Rigid, Defensive and some TI's):

GK

AI (S), DC (D) x2, AI (A)

DLP (D) to contain their attacking midfield

B2B and CM (A) to give movement and people attacking the box

IF (A), Eng, IF (A). The wide men to take the space I was trying to create and the enganche to distribute to others.

The result was a 2-2 draw at home with Shakthar. This was against a 4-2-3-1 Denmark. Satisfied but it wasn't enough. I tried it in the league matches but it didn't worked as I planned. I believe it works best with a more fluid philosophy to encourage more movement, tactical freedom and compress the space.

Then, come my best game so far. Away to Shakthar. After the strikerless experience didn't go as I planned, I comeback to the drawing board and remove the wingers. The result was a 4-1-3-1-1 as follows:

GK

CWB x2 and DC (D) x2

DM (D) / Rga

MC (A), MC (S) with hold position / DLP (S), MC (A)

Treq/AP (A)

CF (S)

Very Rigid, Defensive

The idea was to become even more solid at the back and don't give the ball away cheaply. This coupled with lots of movement and aggressive movement. Won the game 2-0 without a single shot against and be deadly on the counter. Delighted!

Conclusion

All of this to say that it's really possible to make our own tactics work. It "only" needs a clear idea of want you want, some thinking and then adapt to the circunstamces. I've studied some tactics and managers a lot (Capello, Ancelotti, Trapatonni, etc) and it's great that my work is given results. Anything is possible in FM, when well thought and adapted to your team. I've followed other threads to keep me motivated. Now, it's time to give my take and hopeful give motivation to others.

To you Cleon, thanks for your patience. As long as you have 1 "follower" your work will always be rewarding.

Cheers!

[Kuldaniss]

After reading the last post from jukilo, I want to continue on the same page. This weekend I played the game like I was a little kid. Finally it all clicked. I know my tactic in and out, I know it's weaknesses and it's strenghts and it's working exactly how I imagined. I think the hardest thing for me to understand was that I will always need to tweak during matches, because that’s what managers do. I had this idea in my head that once I will get it right, I will watch football games like on tv and everything will work just fine, but clearly that’s not what being a manager is about.

My tactic is a 4-4-2 inspired by City.

GK

WB(S) – CD(D)-CD(D) – WB(A)

W(A) – CM(D)-RPM(S)-WP(A)

CF(A)-DLF(S)

Control/Flexible

TIs: Retain Possesion, Pass into Space, Shorter Passing, Run at Defense.

PIs: GK – Distribute to fullbacks,

CDs- Pass it Shorter, Close down less – mainly because I felt they closed down too much at times and left quite a bit of space for the strikers to exploit.

WP-Get further forward

The team is playing so well and I’m so familiarized with what they’re supposed to do, so I can easily spot problems when they’re not doing that. I never thought that I would get to understand a tactic so well. And the satisfaction is immense when I know that I created it after reading and trying and repeating that whole process.

Of course, there still are weakness and things I can make better. For instance, most of the goals I concede come from my left side, which I know is risky with 2 attack duties, and I’m thinking of moving my CM(D) to that side but I fear that I won’t have the same links with the RPM and WP. I thought the RPM is enough cover for the fullback when going forward but not everytime, so that’s something to consider.

I really appreciate your efforts Cleon, will continue to read every piece you post here because there’s always something more to learn.

[Cleon]

Wow 2 real quality posts. I'm glad you have been able to find what I wrote useful and are now having success doing simliar methods in your own games, that was the aim of the thread so its nice to see people having their own success stories now

I'm hoping to add a new piece later this week as well

[Cleon]

I am struggling to keep up with all the threads I currently have going and because a lot of it is cross over from the game highlighted in this thread, I've decided to add it here so I can keep on top of replies. So I've added the PPM one I did as that is a massive part of this thread especially as we move forward from season one.

[El Presidente]

Where most managers go wrong is the tendency to have too many players on attack duty.

I believe 1 player on attack duty is OK, 2 is about average and 3 is very attacking. More than that I would never do. The more attacking you are the more vulnerable you should be to counter attacks.

[Cleon]

Where most managers go wrong is the tendency to have too many players on attack duty.

I believe 1 player on attack duty is OK, 2 is about average and 3 is very attacking. More than that I would never do. The more attacking you are the more vulnerable you should be to counter attacks.

That's how you can spot how the AI are playing;

2 Attacking duties = standard

3 = control

4 = attack

5 = overload

[Luizinho]

Cleon, I've decided to try and do a bit of analysis myself & have released how much work it must have taken you do have done all of this, so kudos

So far with FM 15 I've stuck with Classic Mode, so I can get through a lot of matches and tinker away without having to worry about tactic familiarity and other aspects. As per usual I'm playing with Crystal Palace and have been quite successful so far, currently sitting in 12th place with four games to play. I have been fairly successful home & away throughout the season against teams similar to me, with the odd game resulting in me being out played. However against the big teams I have struggled (as usual) more than I'd like to. I've read your piece on your match with Man City & I just have no idea how you managed to do it! When I played against Man City in the league earlier in the season, it just seemed like none of my players could string together any passing sequences or defend; it was just constant onslaught. The icing on the cake for me in that game was when their youngster, Pozo, leaped above my centre backs, (Scott Dann & Brende Hangleand) to thunder in a header into the top corner; saying this he's 5'7 and has a heading rating of 9 & a jumping reach of 6. It's really frustrating when things like this happen but I understand that it's not impossible so have to take it on the chin. I can't seem to string together any consistency in these games, with my best chance coming if I sit back and just absorb 90 mins of onslaught.

Anyway having played with a 4-1-4-1 for the first half of the season, I decided to switch to a 4-4-2 so I could play my new signing, Yaya Sanogo alongside Dwight Gayle. I didn't want to copy your system, instead I wanted to try make it to suit my team which I think I did a fairly good job doing as my league position shows

I've settled on this system, not the greatest granted, but working fairly well for me:

Strategy (Counter) I only have one shout activated (Stay On Feet), just to emphasis that I don't want my team to defend aggressively.

I wanted the Wide Playmaker to exploit the gap behind the Advanced Forward, with the Wingback overlapping him on the left. This allows my Central Midfield (D) to sit in a cover for these dual attack duties of the left. On the right I wanted the Complete Forward to drop of and link the midfield to the attack and create a gap that either the Advanced Forward or the Winger can exploit. As for the Deep-Lying Playmaker, I wanted another distributer, with Mcarthur not having the physical attributes to play a Roaming Playmaker.

I thought I'd highlight two scenario's which I think are key parts of my game, but don't really know the best way to go about fixing them.

Chelsea Away

This game was really hard and I got completely dominated with Chelsea totalling 8 CCCs. I added the shouts Pass into Space & Direct Passing, this was because I felt that they would push high up and leave space to could be exploited.

1. [Chelsea Attacking Shape]

The first screen, was during the first part of the match with Chelsea using their 4-2-3-1. Zouma has just received from a goal kick and gave me a good chance to see how Chelsea were set-up. The first thing that really concerned me was that there a large gap in front of my two central midfielders, to which Chelsea had 4 of their 5 man-midfield sitting in, totally unmarked. I knew before kick of that Chelsea would have a numerical advantage in the centre with a 3v2, so toyed with using 'close down less' for both players to limit the amount of space they gave away. Another factor was the difference the space between my widemen. I was fairly happy on the left glank with not too much space being offered and Caudrado being goal side of both players; however on my right flank the gap was larger, which I don't see problem with, except for the fact that Eden Hazard has seemed to set-up camp there which could be a massive issue.

2a. [Fabregas has time and space]

This screen shows the first of a Chelsea attack, which happens in the second half with Chelsea having switched to a 4-2-2-2 (wide). Fabregas is having a large amount of space to be able to dictate and pick out a pass, which I know he can. Chelsea have my defensive line completely occupied with what appears to be an offensive shape more like a 4-2-4, with their AML arriving slightly later. If Fabregas can find one of his attacking players then it can theoretically turn into a 4v4; but with Fabregas being given space and time I'm quite confident that he is going to find one. Unfortunately for me one of his teammates is available and happens to be Eden Hazard, probably the one player I don't want on the ball.

2b. [Chelsea form a 4v4 scenario with space to exploit.]

As Hazard receives the ball, we are instantly in trouble with a large area of space opened up in which either hazard can go past his man and run into or for his attacker, Remy, to exploit and to be found with a pass. A horrible situation to be in, which I can only pray they screw up.

2c. [Goal Time]

Hazard skins my fullback Ward, and runs into the space which opened up. This then turns it into a 4v3 in their favour within my penalty box which is sucidal against a team like chelsea. This results in my centre-back having to come across and deal with Hazard, which in turn leaved Remy completely unmarked in the centre whom receives to ball and slots it home for a Chelsea goal. It's a good goal from their part but for me it's a horrible goal to concede defensively and I had no idea how to deal with their aggressive strategy.

The next bit is on my attack phase against Swansea City.

3a. [Good Start to move]

The move starts out just how I want it to. Sanogo drops a bit deep and uses his physical attributes to win the ball of our goal kick and lay it down for Zaha who is in close proximity. The space has also opened up for Gayle to exploit, however nothing come of this which is highly frustrating as this is exactly what I want to happen.

3b. [Everything going to plan]

Zaha receives the ball and drives down the wing, this is what I want him to do and it is what he is best at.

3c. [Nowhere near enough support]

When Zaha gets into a crossing position, he has 3 targets to hit. However as you can see Swansea are completely solid at the back and the door completely shut. Even my supporting central midfielder is dealt with on the edge of the box. The ball is turned over and launched over the back on my defensive line for Bony to have a massive 1-on-1 with my goalkeeper.

What I'm trying to get across is that seeing things going wrong is one aspect of FM, however knowing solutions is another aspect entirely. With the Chelsea game I couldn't get a foothold, losing almost every 50/50 and none of my passing patterns being executed. I could see it happening but didn't know how to fix it.

With Swansea game it was even worse, defensively I wasn't exactly overpowered but dominated nonetheless, but attacking wise my system didn't seem to get anywhere close to opening up Swansea.

Any form of help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

I uploaded the 2 PKMs if anyone wants to analyse the game and put me to the sword!

Chelsea Game: http://www.filedropper.com/chelseavcrystalpalace

Swansea Game: http://www.filedropper.com/swanseavcrystalpalace

[peleJunior]

@Luizinho

Look at picture 2a. You could have pushed higher up to get closer to Chelsea's Central Midfield. Look at your number 20, see the space he has? If there was pressure on Fabregas then the ball might have broke to that number 20 who has your number 16 (1 on 1 duel with Chelsea defender) as a passing option. Now look at the opposite side of the pitch in picture 2b. Your number 11, if Chelsea's attack breaks down (pressure on their dictating central 2) the that number 11 has acres of space behind Chelsea's number 3. You see your counter attacks were on but you left Chelsea too much room to dictate it in Central Midfield.

You should have set a counter point that you would go and engage that midfield at, watch next time for it and when that central two are in too much room push up on them. Don't let them dictate that high up or you will find it very hard to get out.

[Luizinho]

@Luizinho

Look at picture 2a. You could have pushed higher up to get closer to Chelsea's Central Midfield. Look at your number 20, see the space he has? If there was pressure on Fabregas then the ball might have broke to that number 20 who has your number 16 (1 on 1 duel with Chelsea defender) as a passing option. Now look at the opposite side of the pitch in picture 2b. Your number 11, if Chelsea's attack breaks down (pressure on their dictating central 2) the that number 11 has acres of space behind Chelsea's number 3. You see your counter attacks were on but you left Chelsea too much room to dictate it in Central Midfield.

You should have set a counter point that you would go and engage that midfield at, watch next time for it and when that central two are in too much room push up on them. Don't let them dictate that high up or you will find it very hard to get out.

So you would of 'Pushed Higher Up'/'Increased the Strategy'? The problem I have with this is that my central defenders are slow and I can't allow them to give up space behind them as they can't recover; adding to this Chelsea had Remy up front who is lighting fast.

As for the potential for counter attacks, they didn't materialise at all. Pretty much all of the time I won possession back, the ball is most likely hoofed straight to their centre-backs and possession is lost almost instantly and we then must deal with another wave of their attack. This happens, despite to potential to release players like Zaha who is very fast.

[llama3]

So you would of 'Pushed Higher Up'/'Increased the Strategy'? The problem I have with this is that my central defenders are slow and I can't allow them to give up space behind them as they can't recover; adding to this Chelsea had Remy up front who is lighting fast.

If you press as a team effectively, it can negate the need to concern about recovery pace. However, if your team does not press effectively, and leaves gaps - well, it is suicidal. It can work, but if it doesn't it is costly.

[Repsalty]

I've got a couple of questions regarding on "standing on the shoulders of giants". I've finally seem to have my tactic down pretty well since playing against teams that are weaker than me (go fairly defensive) I still can find ways to get to the goal and get enough chances/goals, and vs equal teams I seem to do fairly well. The problem I have is with the giants. While the defensive side differs from good to poor from game to game the offensive side is usually the same which is bad to terrible, and I think that's also why my defense sometimes crumbles. Somehow my team is not be able to do anything good whenever we get on or close to their half. My players seem to forget how to pass (simply passing to an opponent or put it out of touch) or tend to keep going 1on1 and lose that batch up since the opponent players are simply of a higher quality (or so I tell myself). This results in our opponents dominating us in possession and putting pressure on my defense till it pretty much breaks.

I've tried switching mentality, passing style, and even given more possession target TIs like Retain Possession and Lower Tempo but it all seemed pretty useless. I know you all don't want to give out simple pieces of clear cut tactics, but some advice would be really helpful as I'm getting desperate with getting a result against a significantly better team than my own.

[Cleon]

Seems forever since I last posted in here. Just to let you all know the next instalment should be posted either tomorrow or Thursday, just finishing a few things off on it but it'll definitely be posted by Thursday

[smplfc123]

Sorry if this has been answered many times before, but out of interest, how do you guys use your 3 tactics?

Do you set up with 3 completely different tactics? So that you can completely change a game, or the way you play e.g Having a 4-2-3-1, 5-4-1 and a 4-4-2

Or do you go for one tactic with 3 different variations of it? Such as 4-5-1, where one is used for controlling, one for countering and one for attacking?

Any feedback is appreciated.

[Cleon]

I've updated the main thread

[llama3]

Superb article, really good look at breaking down sides. I have currently dropped 10 points in the league from being unable to break down a team that I am "dominating". Draws at home to Crystal Palace, Hull & Newcastle, and away draws at Aston Villa & West Brom were all games I should have won, but were unable to make the breakthrough, we were too crowded in key areas to really exploit it. In the games against Hull & Newcastle, I took the lead, but conceded to silly goals from set pieces, conceded when the opposition made a breakaway.

It's a balance between having enough attacking intent to make use of the situations that occur, but at the same time, having the patience to wait for them to come and work them.

[Cleon]

Superb article, really good look at breaking down sides. I have currently dropped 10 points in the league from being unable to break down a team that I am "dominating". Draws at home to Crystal Palace, Hull & Newcastle, and away draws at Aston Villa & West Brom were all games I should have won, but were unable to make the breakthrough, we were too crowded in key areas to really exploit it. In the games against Hull & Newcastle, I took the lead, but conceded to silly goals from set pieces, conceded when the opposition made a breakaway.

It's a balance between having enough attacking intent to make use of the situations that occur, but at the same time, having the patience to wait for them to come and work them.

Trying not to panic and hoping to win the game in the first 10 minutes helps . I saw someone the other day mention they do drastic changes after 20 minutes if the scores 0-0. That's madness

[peleJunior]

Really glad to see the creation and exploitation of space been emphasised so heavily. This is all the game is about, it's a very simple concept. I think people forget this, just considering who's making space for who in their team or where the AI is giving it up to you. It's all rather simple.

[Cleon]

Really glad to see the creation and exploitation of space been emphasised so heavily. This is all the game is about, it's a very simple concept. I think people forget this, just considering who's making space for who in their team or where the AI is giving it up to you. It's all rather simple.

Glad that came across as that was my aim. But when I was writing it all out, it seemed to be all I talked about and seemed to be over simplified. But it isn't as I do think it is that simple. I kept thinking I'd missed something

[peleJunior]

Glad that came across as that was my aim. But when I was writing it all out, it seemed to be all I talked about and seemed to be over simplified. But it isn't as I do think it is that simple. I kept thinking I'd missed something

No, I think you nailed it. It's tricky to write about football at this level because it is not rocket science at all; it kind of reminds me of the genius writers of classic songs with 3 chords, it's beautifully simple but bloody hard not to foul up!

[mikcheck]

I liked the title "Walls of Jericho", because that's what it really is hehe.

Playing with low mentality seems to be a good option since players are deeper and plays are less rushed.

But maybe play high tempo in those games might help. That way players move the ball quickly between to try to unsettle those teams.

[Cleon]

I liked the title "Walls of Jericho", because that's what it really is hehe.

Playing with low mentality seems to be a good option since players are deeper and plays are less rushed.

But maybe play high tempo in those games might help. That way players move the ball quickly between to try to unsettle those teams.

Not for me, the whole point is to be timed and calculated and not try to force it. Higher tempo wouldn't help, it would be wasteful for me.

[Rock787]

Hi Cleon, did you end up sticking with DLF (s) & CF (a) or did you switch them around permanently?

Sorry if you've answered that elsewhere and I missed it

EDIT

Just re read the thread and found the answer myself

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, did you end up sticking with DLF (s) & CF (a) or did you switch them around permanently?

Sorry if you've answered that elsewhere and I missed it

EDIT

Just re read the thread and found the answer myself

Haha no worries. For anyone else thinking the same, I kept it the same

[mikcheck]

Thanks Cleon

[Cleon]

The update I added the other day seems to have gone down really well and helped a lot of people so far judging by comments on the blog and Twitter. I hope to have the final bit (of the 3 piece) out next week if I can find the time.

[liam9sufc]

Amazing work once again Cleon, your threads/posts always get me thinking and wanting to boot up FM:lol:

The walls of jericho section intrigued me in particular and I have a question for you. What do you do if your opponent sits even deeper than rochdale did in your example?

reason I ask this is because earlier today I faced probably my toughest challenge since having the game. I played hull city away and they for 90 minutes didn't push higher than their box. I tried dropping deeper and lowering tempo, my thinking was that with modric and steven Gerrard having the time to dictate play with no opposition pressure, and no presure from their manager telling them to play with urgency, they would either A. Boss the game and break the opposition down with ease, or B. Force Hull out of their defensive shell in the fear of scenario A happening. Unfortunately only half of A happened as my midfielders were given the time and space to do as they please but we were unable to create more than 1 decent opportunity throughout the course of the game

It felt as if I was playing chelsea at anfield all over again and being a liverpool fan you could understand why I was incredibly frustrated. Hull played 51211 formation and I had over 70% of possession. After trying the controlled approach, I switched from 352 to 442 and threw on l

Llorente with 20minutes to go. As hull clearly weren't being drawn out of their shspe whatsover, plan B was to try and create overloads in the one area they had less numbers in - out wide

the last 20 was similar, constant knocking on the door with no way through untill a sterling cross in the 92nd minute found the head of Llorente who forced an outrageous save - my first shot on target all game

in a case like this, where a team literally refuses to attack, would you do the same thing as you did vs Rochdale? If not what would you have done differently? It seemed as though although rochdale were deep they still had an element of risk in their setup. Hull scored from a corner in the first minutes and were reluctant to even close players like modric down.

I will definitely watch the game back tomorrow and write a detailed report of the game and give more information about why I setup like I did if you dont mind me posting it in this thread? My backup also saved before the hull game so maybe I will reload that and try to overcome the challenge I faced with some ideas I hope to gain from you

[Cleon]

Amazing work once again Cleon, your threads/posts always get me thinking and wanting to boot up FM:lol:

The walls of jericho section intrigued me in particular and I have a question for you. What do you do if your opponent sits even deeper than rochdale did in your example?

reason I ask this is because earlier today I faced probably my toughest challenge since having the game. I played hull city away and they for 90 minutes didn't push higher than their box. I tried dropping deeper and lowering tempo, my thinking was that with modric and steven Gerrard having the time to dictate play with no opposition pressure, and no presure from their manager telling them to play with urgency, they would either A. Boss the game and break the opposition down with ease, or B. Force Hull out of their defensive shell in the fear of scenario A happening. Unfortunately only half of A happened as my midfielders were given the time and space to do as they please but we were unable to create more than 1 decent opportunity throughout the course of the game

It felt as if I was playing chelsea at anfield all over again and being a liverpool fan you could understand why I was incredibly frustrated. Hull played 51211 formation and I had over 70% of possession. After trying the controlled approach, I switched from 352 to 442 and threw on l

Llorente with 20minutes to go. As hull clearly weren't being drawn out of their shspe whatsover, plan B was to try and create overloads in the one area they had less numbers in - out wide

the last 20 was similar, constant knocking on the door with no way through untill a sterling cross in the 92nd minute found the head of Llorente who forced an outrageous save - my first shot on target all game

in a case like this, where a team literally refuses to attack, would you do the same thing as you did vs Rochdale? If not what would you have done differently? It seemed as though although rochdale were deep they still had an element of risk in their setup. Hull scored from a corner in the first minutes and were reluctant to even close players like modric down.

I will definitely watch the game back tomorrow and write a detailed report of the game and give more information about why I setup like I did if you dont mind me posting it in this thread? My backup also saved before the hull game so maybe I will reload that and try to overcome the challenge I faced with some ideas I hope to gain from you

Rochdale was defending on the edge of their box for 90% of the game. When you say you played deeper do you mean with a lower mentality or still an aggressive mentality and just use the shouts drop deeper and lower tempo? There is a major difference between both. Playing deeper won't really do much and neither will lower tempo on their own, the mentality change however changes everything to suit and match so makes roles less aggressive, positioning less aggressive and so on. The two shouts don't.

Why couldn't your midfield create chances if they had time and space? What were the attacking players doing? Were they not creating space and making late runs?

[larxus]

Hi Cleon, I've been reading your thread and was looking forward to your post on breaking the walls of jericho. Been having problems with those cases, so your post helped to clear lots of things up for me. Just a question, how do you decide whether the opposition is playing deep enough that you believe it would be better to switch from control to standard or counter?

What I've done so far is to look at the analysis tab in match, and checking out the average positions, and use that as a rough estimation of whether the opposition is playing deep. But I realise that this approach might not be good enough, because if I'm dominating a match, especially by chasing down loose balls in the opponent's half, the opponent's average positions will naturally be skewed deeper. Would appreciate if you could shed some light on this. Thanks!

[Cleon]

Yeah don't take the average positions as any sort of guide. You can just pause the game at any time and see how deep the oppositions defenders are, it really is that simple

[larxus]

Wow, that was fast. Wasn't expecting a reply so soon. Alright, will give this a try. Thanks!

[update] Seems like it's working. Instead of switching to counter, I switched my CWB and FB from attack roles to support roles, as I noticed the opposition was taking advantage of the space left by them with long balls for their speedy forwards. Once we were 1-0 up, I switched to counter the moment I saw a central defender got drawn in by one of the forwards, leaving a huge hole in defence, which thankfully was not a goal. 72nd minute, we are 3-0 up and they are down to 10 men. =) Managing lower league can be a headache..

[liam9sufc]

Rochdale was defending on the edge of their box for 90% of the game. When you say you played deeper do you mean with a lower mentality or still an aggressive mentality and just use the shouts drop deeper and lower tempo? There is a major difference between both. Playing deeper won't really do much and neither will lower tempo on their own, the mentality change however changes everything to suit and match so makes roles less aggressive, positioning less aggressive and so on. The two shouts don't.

Why couldn't your midfield create chances if they had time and space? What were the attacking players doing? Were they not creating space and making late runs?

I remained on control mentality and dropped the tempo and defensive line via TIs. I guess my thought process at the time was - I still want to be high up the pitch when we lose the ball, as I don't want Hull to have time on the ball when the rare occasions happened where they had the ball. I also thought the style of play counter mentality provides such as high tempo, more direct passing and less on ball pressure was not what I wanted. So I opted to just adjust the TIs instead. I considered the fact that counter would have made my players less aggressive, but again I opted for the TI deeper d-line as I thought it would then create more runners from deep as the team would be a lot deeper as a team when attacking. I was unaware that the mentality was that much more significant, it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it

I'm going to watch the game back soon and will be able to answer the second paragraph more precisely. But from memory I found my players were always trying to dribble their way through rather than pass their way trough. It wasn't until I went 442 with counter that I started to play passes into space as oppose to passes into feet in crowded areas

Will report my findings once I've watched the game back:)

[Cleon]

Counter attack is actually a slow patient type mentality and only when a counter attack is triggered is the tempo etc high . It's in the same mould as defensive really apart from its slightly more attacking in nature but not by much really.

I see it a bit differently to you though with regards to the approach. When I lose the ball I actually want the opposition to come up field and attack because this means they have to commit men forward and when this happens it means they have lost their defensive shape. So I like them to come up field and then win the ball back in my own half rather than theirs. If want to win the ball high up then they'll still be perfectly positioned which then means they are still hard to break down.

[larxus]

Cleon, what's the difference between (a) switching to counter because the opponent is very aggressive/speedy/better than you; and (b) switching to counter because the opponent is stitting in deep?

[Cleon]

A - You are doing it to nullify the threat and to hit them on the counter as they aggressively attack you and pressure you.

B - You're doing it so you have space and late runners so you aren't crowding out the final third like explained and the examples shown in the last section I added to the thread. It's more about being patient and probing and allowing players to have time and space plus allow runners from deep.

I thought the example in the last post I did in the main thread should have got these points across especially with the examples I posted. In fact the one before is equally important as I don't believe you have to go counter or be more defensive against the better sides. I tend to reverse it and go lower mentality against weaker sides and go more aggressive against the bigger sides.

[chroniclesofal]

Having read this thread, I've recently started doing proper analysis and thinking through my tactics methodically and logically, and it's going pretty well so far. I won't go into detail about that because I have a thread for that, but I wanted to talk about something I think a lot of people don't think about. This is choosing which side your central players play on to achieve balance - you can have your STCs and your CMs on either side, even if they have a side preference, and I think a lot about this to achieve balance. A couple of examples from posts in this thread, if I may:

After reading the last post from jukilo, I want to continue on the same page. This weekend I played the game like I was a little kid. Finally it all clicked. I know my tactic in and out, I know it's weaknesses and it's strenghts and it's working exactly how I imagined. I think the hardest thing for me to understand was that I will always need to tweak during matches, because that’s what managers do. I had this idea in my head that once I will get it right, I will watch football games like on tv and everything will work just fine, but clearly that’s not what being a manager is about.

My tactic is a 4-4-2 inspired by City.

GK

WB(S) – CD(D)-CD(D) – WB(A)

W(A) – CM(D)-RPM(S)-WP(A)

CF(A)-DLF(S)

Control/Flexible

TIs: Retain Possesion, Pass into Space, Shorter Passing, Run at Defense.

PIs: GK – Distribute to fullbacks,

CDs- Pass it Shorter, Close down less – mainly because I felt they closed down too much at times and left quite a bit of space for the strikers to exploit.

WP-Get further forward

The team is playing so well and I’m so familiarized with what they’re supposed to do, so I can easily spot problems when they’re not doing that. I never thought that I would get to understand a tactic so well. And the satisfaction is immense when I know that I created it after reading and trying and repeating that whole process.

Of course, there still are weakness and things I can make better. For instance, most of the goals I concede come from my left side, which I know is risky with 2 attack duties, and I’m thinking of moving my CM(D) to that side but I fear that I won’t have the same links with the RPM and WP. I thought the RPM is enough cover for the fullback when going forward but not everytime, so that’s something to consider.

I really appreciate your efforts Cleon, will continue to read every piece you post here because there’s always something more to learn.

This tactic is really well thought-out, just as all on this thread are and I feel like we're all in the same boat, trying to work things out and build logical tactics. I think something which could improve this tactic is as simple as swapping the CM (D) and the RPM (S) around so they're on the other sides.

A few reasons for this:

1. The more attacking wing-back is on the left flank, so it would make sense to have the more defensive CM protecting that side and covering.

2. You have a wide playmaker on the left, so two playmakers next to each other might mean the balance of your midfield is slightly wonky (although that could still work well) - I like to have a playmaker on each side if I use more than one.

3. Having the RPM next to the W would encourage a good connection between those two; with the RPM closer, he can play more through-balls for the winger.

4. With the DLF dropping deep in front of the RPM, this would restrict the RPM's space and they might get in each other's way. If the RPM was on the opposite side, they could play alongside each other and link up better and perform their own roles better.

Like I said this is a really small tweak I've discovered and it's not a flaw at all, but something that might make your tactic even better. Just a suggestion though and I'm still learning so could be wrong Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

I would be remiss if I didn't thank Cleon for your posts - this thread has been one of the most eye-opening for me and has finally helped me on my way to understanding tactics a little better. So thanks for the hard work!

[larxus]

A - You are doing it to nullify the threat and to hit them on the counter as they aggressively attack you and pressure you.

B - You're doing it so you have space and late runners so you aren't crowding out the final third like explained and the examples shown in the last section I added to the thread. It's more about being patient and probing and allowing players to have time and space plus allow runners from deep.

I thought the example in the last post I did in the main thread should have got these points across especially with the examples I posted. In fact the one before is equally important as I don't believe you have to go counter or be more defensive against the better sides. I tend to reverse it and go lower mentality against weaker sides and go more aggressive against the bigger sides.

Hmm guess I might have misunderstood it then. Because I noticed you changed to counter against Man City.

[Cleon]

Hmm guess I might have misunderstood it then. Because I noticed you changed to counter against Man City.

But the thing is I made that changed based on what I saw happening and not because I was guessing what might happen during the game. I started with the approach I normally use and like everything, the changes I make are based on what I see happening and I explained in the thread why I made the switch. It was because I was exposed with 5 players all ahead of the ball. In fact the reason why I switched were for the same reasons I went counter against the deeper side, it was so space and time were better used and I had players running from deep to really stretch them

But my original point was I stuck with my original game plan until I saw playing so aggressive was being wasteful. On another day against another side who are better than me the starting strategy would be fine

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I finally got a save started with United (again) and I had a little go with your own set up to see what I could identify myself. My early thoughts are that;

a) Wide playmakers are brutally effective, I think I'm a converted man as teams just don't seem to know how to handle them. O_o

b) I really see what you mean about the DLF/A CF/S combination and its pretty counter-intuitive for the layman because the DLF ends up being the advance forward in that set up.

Things I noticed;

CWB don't seem to actually do anything. I see the team dominate at times and hold possession well, but the play graviates towards the middle and the wing backs tend to stay back, sometimes venturing forward but only when a pass isn't quite on. This could be a decision making issue but, the wing backs I have are of great quality. Curiously when dominating they come into their own as a width-exploiting tool by stretching the play, but its movement in and around the halfway line that is static.

I haven't the foggiest idea why this occurs, there's no good reason for it as I note there is acres of space at times and they just don't seem willing to get into it. If they did they would frankly demolish the opposition with an overload. Strangely, I found they did actually do better in getting up the flanks in a WB/S role... (that is, in terms of how far up they get.)

Any ideas as to why this is?

[Cleon]

I finally got a save started with United (again) and I had a little go with your own set up to see what I could identify myself. My early thoughts are that;

a) Wide playmakers are brutally effective, I think I'm a converted man as teams just don't seem to know how to handle them. O_o

b) I really see what you mean about the DLF/A CF/S combination and its pretty counter-intuitive for the layman because the DLF ends up being the advance forward in that set up.

Things I noticed;

CWB don't seem to actually do anything. I see the team dominate at times and hold possession well, but the play graviates towards the middle and the wing backs tend to stay back, sometimes venturing forward but only when a pass isn't quite on. This could be a decision making issue but, the wing backs I have are of great quality. Curiously when dominating they come into their own as a width-exploiting tool by stretching the play, but its movement in and around the halfway line that is static.

I haven't the foggiest idea why this occurs, there's no good reason for it as I note there is acres of space at times and they just don't seem willing to get into it. If they did they would frankly demolish the opposition with an overload. Strangely, I found they did actually do better in getting up the flanks in a WB/S role... (that is, in terms of how far up they get.)

Any ideas as to why this is?

Maybe your central players are making the wrong kind of decisions as to where to distribute the ball too? In my side it is the WP who dictates play it seems so this automatically makes the complete wingbacks involved. Do the wingbacks have low workrate or teamwork?

[vlad.condurache]

Loved the last post - The Walls of Jericho. Especially since I have the same approach since the early days of FM. Going more attacking against a stubborn side and throwing any caution is suicidal. It means that you do EXACTLY what they are expecting you to do. Further more, this means that you don't have the initiative and how can you achieve anything without initiative? It's like IRL: you become desperate in achieving your goals and lose focus Keep it simple and be patient!

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Maybe your central players are making the wrong kind of decisions as to where to distribute the ball too? In my side it is the WP who dictates play it seems so this automatically makes the complete wingbacks involved. Do the wingbacks have low workrate or teamwork?

That's what I see, the WP is instrumental, if he has a bad day it's going to be a rough day at the office!

Wingbacks are 15/15 or 15/14 usually, about 'on par' for the Premiership I'd say. That isn't to say they don't contribute, they do get up the flanks but its during the transition phase that they are aimless in getting up there. I wonder if it might be due to my default strategy being counter - As United we're expected to beat everything in front of us (hah!) so I'm fully aware of the dangers of going too attacking, plus, I love counter's mentality full stop.

That said, I do switch to control for bigger teams (as you pointed out) here were my results...

Liverpool (A) 4-4

Man City (H) 7-1

Arsenal (A) 1-0

That 7-1... jeez. Usually I'd say every game should be 7 or 8 goals for us but we do have a habit of forcing some epic saves.

[liam9sufc]

Ok now after the taking time out to watch the game back, and pause and rewind a lot of different scenarios, I now see the where the game was won and lost and know how beneficial it is to watch the game back without the frustration you get straight after the loss. The only slight problem was that sometimes I was able to identify problems, and knew which changed could solve them - however the difficulty was deciding which change would work best. Anyway, this is some of my analysis of the game...

Unfortunately I wasn’t able to watch the full match highlights; the most detailed option was comprehensive. I don’t know whether watching the game back in full match isn’t possible or I was just looking in the wrong place, but sadly I could only watch in comprehensive. Still though, I saw a lot during the comprehensive highlights to take note of.

Firstly, I’d like to touch on my tactic, and Hull's tactic - just for contextual purposes. I won’t go into detail I’ll just show my and their base tactic. Going into the game this was my Tactic + team line-up

Control + Fluid

Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play out Defence, Push Higher Up, Close Down Much More, Lower Tempo

Hull Lined Up like:

Looking back I had already made a mistake before the game had started imo. I’ve started with 3 centre backs, to occupy 1 striker. I think I would have maybe been better served having one of the CBs in the DM slot, allowing me to use a more technically gifted ball player. Now to the actual match…

This is straight from kickoff - 15 seconds into the game. Here you can see just how deep Hull are already. This is before they even took the lead. Early warning signs are the number difference in my striker Balotelli up against 3 centre backs. This means that with Balotelli marked out the game they should on paper have at least one “spare” centre back at all times, meaning I would need more than one man willing to run in behind and into the box to cause any sort of overload. Other than that I don’t think the shape of my team is bad, I like the way we are set up. The Hull city wing backs is something that could be exposed but I didn’t realise this until later and I will talk about that soon.

The way I will talk about each image is to list to warning signs and what are in my opinion the possible solutions for the matching problems, this is just to get me thinking more. Just to be clear, I didn’t make the changes in “Possible Solutions”, the changes I did make will be stated separately.

Hazard:

1. Balotelli vs 3 centre backs

2. Hull have much more players back than I have willing to commit to attack, meaning they will mark my players tightly if they don’t move around

Possible solutions:

1. Put another player upfront to give the Hull centre backs something to think about

2. Exploit the wide areas as that is the weakest area of their setup, preferably through the use of having a wide attacker + attacking full back combination

This is only 8 seconds on from the last image and already we can see how compact Hull are and are more than happy for me to play my football inside

Now this actually results in a half decent shooting opportunity, as Sandro finds Gotze (one of the two on the edge of the box) who takes a touch and fires wide. I feel I only created this opening due to the sheer fact that I have a higher standard of players who are capable of negotiating their way out of these kind of tough situations (that’s why we pay top dollar for them though eh?), however this may not be the case all the time

Hazard:

1. Sandro running infield as oppose to running down the line where the space is.

2. You can’t see it but Manquillo my right wing back is sitting on the halfway line not offering any threat offensively

Potential Solutions

1. Sandro has “runs with ball down left” PPM, so nothing to suggest he likes to make movement inside. This may just be a one off though, and it created a chance. So I’ll leave that for now

2. Manquillo should be complete wing back attack, this will enable him to get further up the pitch and give an option for an overlap

In reality this was only 21 seconds into the game so didn’t feel any reason to change things

Hull take the lead! From here on I am 1-0 down after a goal from Andrew Robertson from a corner. Liverpool conceding from corners… Nothing new there then.

Changes made around this time:

Removed “Push Higher Up”

Added “Drop Deeper”

I said in my post above my reasoning for dropping deeper, but just to reiterate my thinking was that with the team dropping deeper in possession, my deeper players could control the game more and hopefully invite Hull to come out of their shape a bit

The next two images show just how hard it was to counter Hull who was so organised and quick to get back into shape.

As the free kick is intercepted by Can, all 10 Hull outfield players are in my half. The ball breaks to Gotze who drills it to the furthest man forward, Griezmann.

By the time the ball reaches Griezmann, and he dribbles 10 yards Hull have swarmed him whilst still remaining in their defensive shape of 5 across the back. This was a feature throughout the match.

5mins into the second half, This image is more promising. We have got ourselves in a 1v1 situation out wide, something that’s been hard to come by. Once again Hull camped on their penalty spot, however the problem I see is the numbers in the box. Hull has 7 men around the box whereas I have 4 players attacking the box.

On this occasion, Gotze somehow got on the end of the cross and headed wide. This hinted to me that I need to use the width and start swinging some crosses in maybe. There’s also a huge amount of space between the wing back and centre back that I am currently not taking advantage of

Hazards:

1. Heavily outnumbered in the box

2. Huge space in between the Right wing back and right centre back that no one is exploiting

3 Not enough short options

Potential Solutions:

1. Either needs more men attacking the box, or more players dragging the opposition defenders out of the box. Not too sure how to do the latter, maybe by offering more short options for the wide man will give the defenders something to think about

2. Either change formation to give me more than one wide option. Could also add the PI “move into channels” to my AP(s) (Left Attacking midfielder), this would hopefully result in movement in behind the space between the lines

3. Not too sure, other than a change of formation I could maybe change Gotze to an AM instead of AP, and give him move into channels PI

Around the Hour mark I made another change:

442 formation with counter mentality.

I could see the difference immediately, there was much more space all of a sudden and Coutinho who had been brought on as a wide playmaker was pulling the strings, Hull didn’t know how to stop him. Here are a few examples of promising signs from our shape.

Here, Coutinho attacks the by-line and is tracked by two players. This leaves Manquillo free to put a cross in or to pick out one of the two players free on the edge of the box. Unfortunately Manquillo’s offensive capabilities aren’t the best and he wasted this opportunity – something that became a bit of a theme.

Coutinho, who is the Wide Playmaker, drifts inside and is fed the ball - creating another overload on the right flank. He slides Manquillo in down the side but sadly again he doesn’t make the most of the opportunity

Once again Hernanes picks up the ball in space, this was a feature throughout the latter stages of the game. Him and Coutinho were a major threat and created good openings down the right. Look at the right flank, and how much space there is. Coutinho and Manquillo have once again created an overload and I can’t help but feel if I had my first choice RB (Danilo) on the pitch, we would have found a break through eventually

These are the last two highlights I’m going to show – finally a chance in the 90th minute

A flash of brilliance as Coutinho finds Balotelli between two defenders. Balo then cuts it back to the penalty spot to Moreno

Moreno’s goal bound effort was blocked by a wall of Hull defenders, which became something of a problem. When I eventually did break them down, they had so many men in the box blocking my efforts wasn’t an issue

To Summarise, the 442 created a lot more space and resulted in some decent positions. I can’t help but feel I would have had a comfortable win had I started with this setup, or even changed to it early on. The changes I listed that I would have considered are what I would like to focus on. If anyone disagrees please let me know what you would have done differently. I hope I got others to maybe think about what they do and how important it is to identify issues as the game is in the present aswell

[Cleon]

Some fantastic analysis there and showing how you view the game now and explaining your thought process

I'd like to pick up on one point at the very beginning though;

The only slight problem was that sometimes I was able to identify problems, and knew which changed could solve them - however the difficulty was deciding which change would work best.

This is true and you will find that sometimes the change isn't working against certain opposition so all you'd do is try one of your other ideas. There is normally quite a few different solutions to an issue so really its just a case of going through them until you are happy with what you are seeing. There is no such thing as 'best' because its all situational

[liam9sufc]

Some fantastic analysis there and showing how you view the game now and explaining your thought process

Thanks

I'd like to pick up on one point at the very beginning though;

This is true and you will find that sometimes the change isn't working against certain opposition so all you'd do is try one of your other ideas. There is normally quite a few different solutions to an issue so really its just a case of going through them until you are happy with what you are seeing. There is no such thing as 'best' because its all situational

Couldn't agree more. Before I relied on getting things tactically right before kick off, and not really changing much as I like to have belief in my tactics, but that was a naive mentality. A lot of the in game changes are a case of trial and error and what's so great is that the smallest changes make the biggest difference. Something as simple as changing your closing down from "much more" to "more" or changing from standard counter mentality can be the difference from 0pts to 3pts at the end of the game. I can only thank you and threads like these that got me thinking this way, as its made the game so much more enjoyable and in control for me:)

[Cleon]

I know this thread has helped 2 or 3 people but I honestly thought it would be a lot more popular than it has been so far especially with the amount of threads people are posting asking for help.

[tsj]

I do think you have helped out a lot more; if nothing else just judging by the high number of reads the thread has. It has definitely helped me a lot. I played FM a lot in the early 2000's and started a little again with last years edition (FM14). This year has been more fun for me, not least due to the high level of help available on this (and other) forums. I fall in the same trap as many others and tend to make too many changes during the game - shout left right and centre. Reading this thread has help that a lot - and many also just accepting that 0-0 at half time isn't necessarily that bad:)

I also enjoyed the "defensive arts..."-thread you have previously done. In that regard I have a question, which combines with this thread. In a number of your post you talk about creating space by dropping deeper and/or by lowering the mentality. Generally I like to start out with defensive or counter and I the questions presents itself - when it help create space against stubborn opponents and it helps maintaining stability against top side when would you actually go higher in mentality?

I know it depends on style of play and many other factors but I would like a short discussion on the subject if you have time.

[Kevaldo]

I think you have under-estimated the impact this work has had Cleon ... it is a fantastic series and I'm sure it's helping more people than you think!

Personally for me the "Walls of Jericho" piece was a massive "Eureka" moment ... everything has suddenly made a lot more sense to me and i feel confident now home and away about reading the match engine and, more importantly, knowing what to change to have a positive impact. At home I'm much more likely to use a lower mentality structure but encourage more penetration through altering roles and duties, and away from home tend to play a higher mentality structure but commit less players forward. In the past at home I would have gone more attacking on the mentality structure and piled players forward and away fro home i would have gone more defensive and kept players back ... my new approach, inspired by your threads is giving me much more success and control!

The ppm's thread was also a real eye opener and an area that I now really pay attention to ... seems silly to think I've been neglected these for years considering the massive impact they can have on the success or otherwise of your approach.

I can't wait to read your next analysis o the five 10's, and I'm even more excited about your attempts to create the Arsenal "invincibles" 442 Keep up the fantastic work, your contributions are invaluable!