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Which FM did Messi 1st appeared in?


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Yeah, if I remember correctly. :) A cousin of my mine (Barca fan) told me to search for Lionel Messi, said he is the next big thing, I typed it into search bar and there he was in Banik Ostrava. I told him I think I'll pass on this one. Looked awful. :D

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That's pretty bizarre haha. The Barca researcher probably wasn't doing his homework at the time! :p

It's probably difficult to assess young players when the quickly rise through the youth ranks. Munir El Haddadi is pretty terrible in FM14, and yet a starter for the senior team now.

Or, maybe the Barça researcher still isn't doing his homework (lol).

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In fairness, some of that Messi/Rooney comparison speaks for itself- people forget just how high hopes were for Rooney.

At that point, Rooney was already playing full international football- scoring four goals at Euro 2004- and had literally just signed for Man Utd for £27m, in August 2004.

Messi, for comparison, only made his first-team debut for Barcelona in October 2004. In the 03/04 season, he was playing mostly in the C team, and even in 04/05, he was also still in and around the B-team, rather than being a first-team regular.

Sure, his attributes are low, but the comparison with Rooney is a bit off-base. At that point, Rooney was doing it and Messi wasn't. Yet.

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In fairness, some of that Messi/Rooney comparison speaks for itself- people forget just how high hopes were for Rooney.

At that point, Rooney was already playing full international football- scoring four goals at Euro 2004- and had literally just signed for Man Utd for £27m, in August 2004.

Messi, for comparison, only made his first-team debut for Barcelona in October 2004. In the 03/04 season, he was playing mostly in the C team, and even in 04/05, he was also still in and around the B-team, rather than being a first-team regular.

Sure, his attributes are low, but the comparison with Rooney is a bit off-base. At that point, Rooney was doing it and Messi wasn't. Yet.

yeah, but rooney's stats in fm05 look crazy, i mean he is better in fm05 than he is now, seems kind of over the top

499800-blasphemy-seven-clubs-lock-horns-title-after-sir-alex-fergusons-retirement-wayne-rooney_-overview-profile.png

anyway, i managed to find one of messi in fm 2006:

BSQjNgnCAAAebT2.jpg

bigger here: http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BSQjNgnCAAAebT2.jpg:large

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In fairness, some of that Messi/Rooney comparison speaks for itself- people forget just how high hopes were for Rooney.

At that point, Rooney was already playing full international football- scoring four goals at Euro 2004- and had literally just signed for Man Utd for £27m, in August 2004.

Messi, for comparison, only made his first-team debut for Barcelona in October 2004. In the 03/04 season, he was playing mostly in the C team, and even in 04/05, he was also still in and around the B-team, rather than being a first-team regular.

Sure, his attributes are low, but the comparison with Rooney is a bit off-base. At that point, Rooney was doing it and Messi wasn't. Yet.

which is the only tournament in which Rooney's done well in

Messi announced himself in 05/06 (most notable being criticised by Mourinho for "play acting" and earning DelHorno a red card in that champions league clash) but made his name the following season

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I remember watching an Arsenal vs Man United game back in 2005 with a few friends. One of them was saying how talented Rooney was and how we would become one of the best players. I said it won't happen. Ronaldo and Messi are more talented and will be the best players. We made a bet.....I so love being right.:D:D:D

BTW, does anyone have a screenshot of Ronaldo's first appearance on FM?

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BTW, does anyone have a screenshot of Ronaldo's first appearance on FM?

I have a screenshot from CM01/02, where Steve Rowley tells me Cristiano Ronaldo isn't good enough to play for Arsenal.

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yeah, but rooney's stats in fm05 look crazy, i mean he is better in fm05 than he is now, seems kind of over the top

Stats generally across the board for good players were much higher at that point, attribute weightings have changed an awful lot since then so even if Rooney now has a higher CA than he did back then, those stats wouldn't be as reachable now.

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In my opinion Ferguson reduced Rooneys potential immensely when he started playing Rooney as a midfielder, which he clearly isn't. I still think he's either a striker (like in the season when he became topscorer) or maybe a second striker, but not a midfielder like he has played for United in many, many seasons. He still averages 22 goals (fact/all competitions) and about 25 assists (estimate) per season at United since he got there ten years ago. Who else (attacking players that is) has shown that kind of consistency in the PL or anywhere else besides Messi and Ronaldo at such a high level? Maybe Zlatan but that's about it. And again, imho he hasn't even played much at his favorite position at all.

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I have a screenshot from CM01/02, where Steve Rowley tells me Cristiano Ronaldo isn't good enough to play for Arsenal.

In the "out of the box" installation of CM01-02 I have, Cristiano Ronaldo is in the db with all 0s besides a couple of 15s, but even loading the Portoguese league doesn't make him appear in Sporting B team... I guess he was buffed up in a later patch to have him in the game and scoutable?

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I have a screenshot from CM01/02, where Steve Rowley tells me Cristiano Ronaldo isn't good enough to play for Arsenal.
Even my scout at Kaiserslautern said that Ronaldo wasn't good enough for the club. Guess who got the sack :D
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Rooney was world class when he burst on the scene at Man Utd. I remember his prem debut at Utd. Nobody knew how to defend against him.

IMO, Messi overtook him about 2-3 yrs ago.

Really!? :D

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Rooney was world class when he burst on the scene at Man Utd. I remember his prem debut at Utd. Nobody knew how to defend against him.

IMO, Messi overtook him about 2-3 yrs ago.

Rooney has never been world-class. And Messi has been ahead of him since 2007 - that's 7 years, son.

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In my opinion Ferguson reduced Rooneys potential immensely when he started playing Rooney as a midfielder, which he clearly isn't. I still think he's either a striker (like in the season when he became topscorer) or maybe a second striker, but not a midfielder like he has played for United in many, many seasons. He still averages 22 goals (fact/all competitions) and about 25 assists (estimate) per season at United since he got there ten years ago. Who else (attacking players that is) has shown that kind of consistency in the PL or anywhere else besides Messi and Ronaldo at such a high level? Maybe Zlatan but that's about it. And again, imho he hasn't even played much at his favorite position at all.

What?! When has Rooney played in midfield? He has always played as a forward, either through the center or out wide.

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When he started out at United he was a second striker and could roam all over the pitch in a free role, but later on Ferguson started using him as an attacking central midfielder with a lot more discipline in terms of positioning and tracking back. Rooney himself has said many times that his fallout with Ferguson was caused by the very fact that he got frustrated with playing in midfield.

“I actually felt when I played midfield I did OK but I didn’t want to play there,” Rooney said. “I felt I deserved the right to play in my position and that wasn’t happening. I can play midfield. Maybe when I’m a bit older, losing my legs a bit, I can go back there.”

Asked whether he made his desire to play up front known to management, Rooney said: “Everyone at the club knew that’s where I wanted to play. That’s why I was disappointed because I got told to play in midfield and I didn’t want to but I’d always go in and try to help the team. There had to come a point where for my own career I had to be a bit selfish really.”

Interview with Rooney last year.

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In the "out of the box" installation of CM01-02 I have, Cristiano Ronaldo is in the db with all 0s besides a couple of 15s, but even loading the Portoguese league doesn't make him appear in Sporting B team... I guess he was buffed up in a later patch to have him in the game and scoutable?

I have no idea - but here's the screenshot: http://gyazo.com/9355fa73e08a113ff611625660c5b8f2 :)

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What?! When has Rooney played in midfield? He has always played as a forward, either through the center or out wide.

People watch Rooney dropping back deep in his own half and think he is playing in Midfield. If that isn't the reason then people are obviously making it up or have never actually watched these games where he plays 'Midfield'

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When he started out at United he was a second striker and could roam all over the pitch in a free role, but later on Ferguson started using him as an attacking central midfielder with a lot more discipline in terms of positioning and tracking back. Rooney himself has said many times that his fallout with Ferguson was caused by the very fact that he got frustrated with playing in midfield.

“I actually felt when I played midfield I did OK but I didn’t want to play there,” Rooney said. “I felt I deserved the right to play in my position and that wasn’t happening. I can play midfield. Maybe when I’m a bit older, losing my legs a bit, I can go back there.”

Asked whether he made his desire to play up front known to management, Rooney said: “Everyone at the club knew that’s where I wanted to play. That’s why I was disappointed because I got told to play in midfield and I didn’t want to but I’d always go in and try to help the team. There had to come a point where for my own career I had to be a bit selfish really.”

Interview with Rooney last year.

I'm sorry but that's a bit of a one sided view on it and putting a lot of blame on Ferguson while ignoring the other side. The only time when Rooney really truly looked world class and somewhere close to the same bracket as Messi and Ronaldo was in 2009/10 when he was indeed leading the line for United. What happened thereafter though was much more down to Wayne himself rather than Ferguson or anyone else. He made one bad decision after another starting with the stupid red card in the WC qualifier and the subsequent horror show in South Africa, then his personal life issues and finally the transfer request at United all of which destroyed any momentum he had had on the pitch. He was sent away to the US in the middle of the 2010/11 season on a personal training program because of how unfit and out of form he was. It's understandable really that Ferguson felt he needed to move away from him as the main striker for United which he eventually did - firstly by signing van Persie and then picking him as the main man trying to cut the club's ties with Rooney in the process. Luckily for Rooney David Moyes had other ideas.

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You can look at it how you want of course, but I still think that Rooney had a lot more potential than Ferguson was able to get out of him. One of the reasons being, in my humble opinion, that Rooney had a lot more freedom in terms of positioning and creativity in the past, and was later restricted to deeper positions on the pitch during moments of possession for the opponent. Which is crucial for how you position yourself during the transitional period when your team reclaims possession. A 'real' second striker shouldn't have to track back to central midfield like Ferguson wanted him to do. A real second striker positions himself between midfield and attack when the opponent has the ball, to be able to be open and in a decent position as soon as the ball is reclaimed. Maybe my memory has gone soft on me, but I have pretty vivid memories of a younger Rooney that had a lot more freedom and roamed a lot more.

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You can look at it how you want of course, but I still think that Rooney had a lot more potential than Ferguson was able to get out of him. One of the reasons being, in my humble opinion, that Rooney had a lot more freedom in terms of positioning and creativity in the past, and was later restricted to deeper positions on the pitch during moments of possession for the opponent. Which is crucial for how you position yourself during the transitional period when your team reclaims possession. A 'real' second striker shouldn't have to track back to central midfield like Ferguson wanted him to do. A real second striker positions himself between midfield and attack when the opponent has the ball, to be able to be open and in a decent position as soon as the ball is reclaimed. Maybe my memory has gone soft on me, but I have pretty vivid memories of a younger Rooney that had a lot more freedom and roamed a lot more.

I'm pretty sure you have some of it the wrong way around. Rooney's main issue playing up top has always been that he keeps dropping too deep to get involved in play and when he does that then he doesn't have the consistency of touch and vision to advance the play quick enough. That's why 2009/10 was such a big season for him - he finally looked like he was learning to keep the discipline and instead of chasing shadows he was using his energy more efficiently by attacking the box. He said as much himself in a recent interview where he claimed that he'd become a smarter player by learning not to chase the ball all the time. Sure, 18-year old Rooney was a different beast but back then he was a different player physically and that energy and drive was then best utilized by him being a supporting player to initially RvN and then Ronaldo. He wasn't playing like a creative link between midfield and attack back then either. He harried the defenders, chased back a lot and drove at the defense with the ball. He also played on the left wing a lot back then, especially when Ronaldo started to become the goalscorer he is today. That required a lot more responsibility and restriction than his recent stints as a 'nr 10' or even in midfield but he thrived on it. I'm not sure he would now and as that quote of his indirectly suggests, he doesn't seem to fancy it that much either.

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Yeah I can definitely see the point you are trying to make :)

Completely agree with you by the way about Rooney having problems with tracking back when he shouldn't, or making stupid decisions whilst tracking back. Didn't he give away a penalty once during a very important England game in qualification while there was not really a reason for him to defend? I can recall something similar.

And yes Ferguson probably would have had his reasons for changing his role. But it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation if you ask me.

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Fergie was definitely not infallible when it came to relationships with players and he may have made mistakes with his approach to Rooney from time to time. But it was all part of him being utterly single minded in his determination to keep United winning things and that's exactly what they did. If Rooney had been as single minded in trying to better himself as a player things could have gone much differently. Easy to forget that as an 18-year old he looked a level above Ronaldo. He looked to be well on the way to big things before WC 2010 to be fair to him but I don't think his attitude since has done him any favors.

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When he started out at United he was a second striker and could roam all over the pitch in a free role, but later on Ferguson started using him as an attacking central midfielder with a lot more discipline in terms of positioning and tracking back. Rooney himself has said many times that his fallout with Ferguson was caused by the very fact that he got frustrated with playing in midfield.

“I actually felt when I played midfield I did OK but I didn’t want to play there,” Rooney said. “I felt I deserved the right to play in my position and that wasn’t happening. I can play midfield. Maybe when I’m a bit older, losing my legs a bit, I can go back there.”

Asked whether he made his desire to play up front known to management, Rooney said: “Everyone at the club knew that’s where I wanted to play. That’s why I was disappointed because I got told to play in midfield and I didn’t want to but I’d always go in and try to help the team. There had to come a point where for my own career I had to be a bit selfish really.”

Interview with Rooney last year.

Maybe the whole problem is that Rooney "thought" he played in midfield while he actually never did. Now it's clear, the poor boy was confused.

The only thing funnier than English-bias is anti-English bias.

The funniest thing is when English players get over-rated for no reason.....Nothing beats that for laughs.:D;)

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The only thing funnier than English-bias is anti-English bias.

i've no idea what the main motive of this post is, but english players are massively over-rated in FM year after year. i don't blame them though. most researchers are british and are just showing national bias.

it would just be helpful if it's no soo obvious like rooney being world class when his performance has been on and off the last couple of years.

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i've no idea what the main motive of this post is, but english players are massively over-rated in FM year after year. i don't blame them though. most researchers are british and are just showing national bias.

it would just be helpful if it's no soo obvious like rooney being world class when his performance has been on and off the last couple of years.

We seem to have head researchers dotted all over the world, and beneath them research teams that have quite a number of people all based in the country of the club they do the research in. The main difference is that most English researchers are based on this site, I know a number of the overseas teams have their own forum set ups in their own languages for their research (quite understandably as I doubt all involved in the research have a solid grasp of English) so by comparison, their presence here on this forum is smaller.

From January onwards there was a lot of commotion about the fact Januzaj was better than Sterling, and it wasn't us researchers that were leading the charge on that criticism.

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People watch Rooney dropping back deep in his own half and think he is playing in Midfield. If that isn't the reason then people are obviously making it up or have never actually watched these games where he plays 'Midfield'

Same people would think that Messi is playing DM :) because he is going even deeper

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Rooney has never been world-class? ROTFL. Do people here actually watch real life football at all? :))

He has been one of the best in england and top 10 in europe on occasions but i would say he has never been world class when compared with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, And those are the players he is up against in his generation

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yeah, but rooney's stats in fm05 look crazy, i mean he is better in fm05 than he is now, seems kind of over the top

I'm sure SI have said before, that attribute values acted differently (how good a player is/performs/acts on the match engine) on older FM games. If you look at most players on FM05 and FM06, they all have very high attributes.

Slightly lower attributes of today, probably = high attributes from FM05 and FM06.

Also, alot of people would say Rooney was better back then, than what he is today anyway..

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