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International Adaptability - A New Stat

Are International Specific Stats A Good Idea?  

168 members have voted

  1. 1. Are International Specific Stats A Good Idea?

    • Yes
      73
    • No
      95


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Seriously don't understand why we would need IA? Can't we just consider all competitive International games as big matches and have the Important Matches and Pressure attributes have some affect? I mean a player doesn't play bad just because it's an International match, he plays bad because he can't cope with the pressure given by the media and fans around the world eg. Messi in 2010 and 2011, Ronaldo in 2008, England for the past 20 years.

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Seriously don't understand why we would need IA? Can't we just consider all competitive International games as big matches and have the Important Matches and Pressure attributes have some affect? I mean a player doesn't play bad just because it's an International match, he plays bad because he can't cope with the pressure given by the media and fans around the world eg. Messi in 2010 and 2011, Ronaldo in 2008, England for the past 20 years.

I kind of agree, as long as we also consider the opposite situation, in case you play against Malta or Liechtenstein.

I still think there should be something influencing how players put more/less effort when playing for their national team, though. Somebody was talking about Carragher revealing he didn't have the same passion playing for England as he did for Liverpool. As SS Lazio fan, I could mention Klose, who's basically been paid for 2 years to walk on the pitch in Serie A, while being very passionate about the German national team.

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I kind of agree, as long as we also consider the opposite situation, in case you play against Malta or Liechtenstein.

I still think there should be something influencing how players put more/less effort when playing for their national team, though. Somebody was talking about Carragher revealing he didn't have the same passion playing for England as he did for Liverpool. As SS Lazio fan, I could mention Klose, who's basically been paid for 2 years to walk on the pitch in Serie A, while being very passionate about the German national team.

But then the attributes there might be work rate and professionalism so i still don't think a special international atribute is necasary.

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But work rate and professionalism applies to domestic games too. The idea is to have a stat or stats that is/are distinctive to the International Module and does not apply in the domestic modules.

It's clear people don't really want this, so I have to respect and accept it a no go.

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You're right, there haven't exactly been shock winners at the world cup but let me ask you this.

Were any of the following expected?

Germany humiliating Brazil in the semi final in 2014?

South Korea & Turkey making it to the semi-final in 2002?

Croatia beating the Netherlands to 3rd place in 1998?

Sweden & Bulgaria making the semis in 1994?

Belgium in the semis in 1986?

Poland beating France for 3rd place in 1982?

Poland beating Brazil for 3rd place in 1974?

2014 - Yes, it was so obvious to anyone that this was on the cards. The performances of Brazil was unimpressive throughout, they were very, very lucky to even be at that stage and they got shown up.

2002 - South Korea - were always shoe in for progressing at a home tournament, they did what Brazil did in 2014 though and got a hell of a lot of the rub of the green on the decisions. Can't remember much about Turkey mind...

No comment on the rest. :p

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Sounds like a great idea,

some people seem to thrive in the international environment (someone mentioned Klose, who immediately came to mind)

whereas others seem to be too pressured and 'flop' in the major competitions (a certain current England captain comes to mind)

probably not a great idea to have a completely different set of stats, but maybe a new "patriotism" or "international pressure" stat that affects them for internationals

would be a good idea imo, and then you'd actually be able to replicate someone like Klose, who does really well internationally, but doesn't achieve much domestically

(since 2007 [or when he joined Bayern], has scored 1 goal every 3 games domestically, but 1 every 1.8 internationally)

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International football is a funny thing. You have a group of players from various different clubs and in a short period of time they have to gel with each other and understand a tactical system that may or may not be completely different from what they are doing at club level.

The OP has a point; where as in real life, there have been plenty of cases where players who are fantastic at club level are the opposite for their national teams, in FM, at least in my experience, teams comprised of good players will do generally do well. For instance I used to win the world cup easily with England on the backs of Gerrard, Lampard, and Rooney (who were all monsters in the game).

I've always felt like the international football side of things in FM lacked a certain level of complexity (if that makes any sense). I rarely saw meltdowns. And, in FM10 at least, the only time I saw teams punching above their weight was when they had a speed demon (speed was damn near broken in that game. Freaking Agbonlahor would score 30 a season ffs :D).

Also, saying 'it's a game' isn't a valid argument for being against this. Because FM is something that strives for realism. I'm all for improvements and more depth in different aspects of the game. Especially in international management.

Someone mentioned that instead of adding a new hidden attribute, why not change the importance of international matches. I actually like this idea. Of course you could have other attributes that have impact on this as well.

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International football is a funny thing. You have a group of players from various different clubs and in a short period of time they have to gel with each other and understand a tactical system that may or may not be completely different from what they are doing at club level.

The OP has a point; where as in real life, there have been plenty of cases where players who are fantastic at club level are the opposite for their national teams, in FM, at least in my experience, teams comprised of good players will do generally do well. For instance I used to win the world cup easily with England on the backs of Gerrard, Lampard, and Rooney (who were all monsters in the game).

I've always felt like the international football side of things in FM lacked a certain level of complexity (if that makes any sense). I rarely saw meltdowns. And, in FM10 at least, the only time I saw teams punching above their weight was when they had a speed demon (speed was damn near broken in that game. Freaking Agbonlahor would score 30 a season ffs :D).

Also, saying 'it's a game' isn't a valid argument for being against this. Because FM is something that strives for realism. I'm all for improvements and more depth in different aspects of the game. Especially in international management.

Someone mentioned that instead of adding a new hidden attribute, why not change the importance of international matches. I actually like this idea. Of course you could have other attributes that have impact on this as well.

I have to agree with this and I think the initial point ManagerFootball was trying to make is this: if you assume that players face about the same pressure playing in the champions league compared to playing in international tournaments, certain players(mostly English as highlighted above) do not perform the same, and its not just about the tactics. For e.g., in a CL final, its man utd vs juventus, and rooney and pirlo both play pretty close to their abilities. Then, in the Euro finals, its England vs Italy and as normal, pirlo playes at the same level, but Rooney doesn't play well. There can be certain attributes already present that explains this phenomenom, such as poor motivation and man-management by the in-game roy hodgson(realistic stats), but at the same time, even if rooney were playing under SAF for England, he might still not produce. this could be an argument for the International Adapability stat that has been mentioned.

One could argue about rooney consistency. So instead of finals, we look at CL and the Euro tournaments as a whole, and not just one game. Certain players, and certain national teams, just do not perform as well as their attributes suggest. Like the dutch not winning despite all their talents. I understand you could look at certain mental attributes current available, but at the same time you could also add in or consider adding in attributes relating to international play

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I have to agree with this and I think the initial point ManagerFootball was trying to make is this: if you assume that players face about the same pressure playing in the champions league compared to playing in international tournaments, certain players(mostly English as highlighted above) do not perform the same, and its not just about the tactics. For e.g., in a CL final, its man utd vs juventus, and rooney and pirlo both play pretty close to their abilities. Then, in the Euro finals, its England vs Italy and as normal, pirlo playes at the same level, but Rooney doesn't play well. There can be certain attributes already present that explains this phenomenom, such as poor motivation and man-management by the in-game roy hodgson(realistic stats), but at the same time, even if rooney were playing under SAF for England, he might still not produce. this could be an argument for the International Adapability stat that has been mentioned.

One could argue about rooney consistency. So instead of finals, we look at CL and the Euro tournaments as a whole, and not just one game. Certain players, and certain national teams, just do not perform as well as their attributes suggest. Like the dutch not winning despite all their talents. I understand you could look at certain mental attributes current available, but at the same time you could also add in or consider adding in attributes relating to international play

Spot on mate. You get it.

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There are always logical reasons why players underperform in different surroundings. I don't agree with artificially creating something, which should already be covered by existing attributes (or personality). It's a bit like trying to hammer sense into things we don't understand.

Take the EC/WC odd winner thing, for example: An easy answer/reason would be, that one stage less in the playoffs increases the likeliness of flukes. Apart from less luck-dependent reasons and analysis on a bit less pub level, which would make Denmark or Greece less of a fluke than perceived.

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There are always logical reasons why players underperform in different surroundings. I don't agree with artificially creating something, which should already be covered by existing attributes (or personality). It's a bit like trying to hammer sense into things we don't understand.

Take the EC/WC odd winner thing, for example: An easy answer/reason would be, that one stage less in the playoffs increases the likeliness of flukes. Apart from less luck-dependent reasons and analysis on a bit less pub level, which would make Denmark or Greece less of a fluke than perceived.

I disagree with you. Existing attributes apply to both Domestic and International modules. Therefore Rooney will play just as good for England as he does for Man Utd and that doesn't solve anything at all. The idea was a stat that would have an effect on his international performances so he does not perform as well for country as he does for club just like in real life.

I am amused that over 50% do not understand this idea. England being very good in FM for the past 10 years is apparently cool, realistic and does not need touching. Ok then.

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I am amused, that you can't see any other reasons for Rooney not performing too well for England (Hint: Maybe not a player stat is the reason, but the whole "thing" around him? Hence the number of english players supposedly underachieving individually).

I am amused, that you can't see some of the pretty obvious reasons for England overachieving in FM (compared to real life).

So can we stop being amused as an answer to facing disagreement? Makes oneself an easy target, you know.

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How about working out an International Attribute that applies to all teams, and isn't just being proposed to nerf the England team, and only the England team?

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How about working out an International Attribute that applies to all teams, and isn't just being proposed to nerf the England team, and only the England team?

Yes it would apply to every single player in the game. Pirlo would most likely have an IA rating of 19 or 20 as he plays just as well for country (Italy) as he does for club. Rooney would have an IA rating of around 16 because he does not perform at the same level for country as he does for club.

No one is wanting to nurf anything. Its still possible to win a world cup with them, just more difficult than it currently is right now. They are over rated and have been for years. Needs a solution and I don't hear many other solutions.

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I am amused, that you can't see any other reasons for Rooney not performing too well for England (Hint: Maybe not a player stat is the reason, but the whole "thing" around him? Hence the number of english players supposedly underachieving individually).

I am amused, that you can't see some of the pretty obvious reasons for England overachieving in FM (compared to real life).

So can we stop being amused as an answer to facing disagreement? Makes oneself an easy target, you know.

Then enlighten us as to why english players cannot translate club abilities into international games? Also why does Klose play so well for Germany but is a nobody at club level? Please enlighten us and share your knowledge. Give me a different way of thinking here.

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But with your comments it seems to me you just want to nerf the England team. I agree that English players are overrated in FM and in RL. With your system what will be the ratings for the dutch, Spain, Argentina?

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But with your comments it seems to me you just want to nerf the England team. I agree that English players are overrated in FM and in RL. With your system what will be the ratings for the dutch, Spain, Argentina?

The dutch dont historically have a problem adapting domestic games into international periods. They have an historical dressing room problem though. The dutch usually fight each other at some point in a tournement (2014 was a rare exception for the dutch). You could argue the same about France over the last few years.

Spain would be very tricky to judge right now for obvious reasons. They are in transition. But if you took an historical view over the past 5 years, spanish players would generally have very good IA ratings.

If you looked at what messi has done for Argentina over the last 5 years compared to how he plays for Barcelona, He would be a player with an IA of around 15.

Any player in the world who plays just as well for country as club would get 20...they would be able to potentially use ALL of their abilities. A wayne rooney would get around 15-16 and would not be able to make use of all of his abilities unless the sports psychologist you hired (A new staff memeber) improves his IA rating.

Something like this:

International Adaptability (IA)

A hidden stat that dictates how well a player carries over his overall attributes to the International environment. If Player A (English) had an IA rating of 15 then he would essentially only be making use of 75% of his overall abilities, however if his IA rating was 20 he would have the potential to make use of all of his abilities as he does domestically.

International Penalty Taking (IPT)

This statistic decides the chances of player converting a penalty during International Appearances. An example would be Player A (English) has a normal penalty rating of 19 but feels under intense pressure when taking them for his country. Therefore his IPT rating would be set at 14 to better reflect that, resulting in a noticeable lower conversion rate.

Sports Psychologist:

Hiring a sports psychologist can depending on their ability greatly improve a players chance of translating current club form into their International appearances. It can improve a players International Adaptability (IA), and International Penalty Taking (IPT) ratings.

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There might be a problem with your stat with Germany. If my memory serves me correct the germans are unlicenced

No really. I'm sure everyone uses the same trick each year ;-)

And if they don't. Give the Fake Players the respective ratings.

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The fake players usually have god like stats

Then maybe they need to have their stats mirror to who they are pretending to be, or as close as possible if that were to present legal issues.

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Then enlighten us as to why english players cannot translate club abilities into international games? Also why does Klose play so well for Germany but is a nobody at club level? Please enlighten us and share your knowledge. Give me a different way of thinking here.
It's not a plain "us", as your poll results seem to suggest so far. And your attitude doesn't seem to improve. Just read something not gamey about football, like the more respected blogs, and you will find enough articles that could "enlighten" you.

First off, i already mentioned personality and/or other attributes already in the game (examples also already mentioned in this thread by other users), which can result in players not performing as well for their national team. If the effects of those aren't reflected properly in FM, then it would be more logical to work on that, than inventing an artificial trait or attribute, that is not an image of anything actually existing in the real world.

But that's actually as far as looking at the single individual player performing for his national team gets you, the rest is football management. Can you expect to just throw together 11 "five star" players and get a "five star" team in result? Maybe they don't fit together, maybe the manager is not the right choice, maybe the training schedule for the short national team trips or the tournament preparation is bad, maybe the staff is not quite right, maybe maybe maybe. All the choices the manager/staff make/s can influence individual player performances heavily.

That also works as being a positive management choice to overachieve in comparison to your player material. Germany's win or their results in past tournaments is no fluke or just players simply performing well for their team - everything up to the world cup win was a long-term project, with the needed tiny bit of luck to win the cup at last. Every single tournament under Löw was a mid-term project as well, with acribic work on all ends so that....... the players were able to perform like they should.

There are many national teams, like England, who lack all sorts of proper mid- and long-term build-up or "management" and those will constantly under-achieve.

Maybe a lack of implementation of reflecting that in FM is a better explanation, others might argue, that some national databases are overrated - I think it's a bit of everything.

Oh, and I disagree with Klose being a nobody at club level. Absolute disagreement.

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Klose Played 98 Scored 24 for Bayern Munich

Klose Played 137 Scored 71 for Germany

Klose Played 83 Scored 35 for Lazio

Term 'nobody' was an exaggeration but my point is clear. Klose is more effective and proficient in a German shirt than at club level. To even be including Lazio here is being kind, it's ot exactly the league it used to be in the early 1990's. When Klose played for Bayern (a top european team) he could not find half the success he has in a German shirt. I think my point is clear.

So is it the managers fault English players can take penalties for their club teams quite well but collapse under pressure when taking them for England?

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Somebody also tell me exactly what Messi did for Argentina before this year. If people cannot see there needs to be a distinction of some kind between the domestic modules and the international module then yes I am slightly baffled by it. There are so many examples of it.

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Somebody also tell me exactly what Messi did for Argentina before this year. If people cannot see there needs to be a distinction of some kind between the domestic modules and the international module then yes I am slightly baffled by it. There are so many examples of it.

I think most people can see there should be a distinction between domestic and international football, the main difference of opinion is whether additional attributes are actually needed to model that.

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Klose Played 98 Scored 24 for Bayern Munich

Klose Played 137 Scored 71 for Germany

Klose Played 83 Scored 35 for Lazio

Term 'nobody' was an exaggeration but my point is clear. Klose is more effective and proficient in a German shirt than at club level. To even be including Lazio here is being kind, it's ot exactly the league it used to be in the early 1990's. When Klose played for Bayern (a top european team) he could not find half the success he has in a German shirt. I think my point is clear.

That's lovely.

Now do Jozy Altidore.

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Then solutions should be put forward. Currently however the main alternative solution that appears to be expressed is that we can use current stats (Important Matches) to do this, even though current stats apply to all modules thus no distinction as such. The current two new stats I propose are also dynamic to a degree, and can be improved over time by hiring a good sports psychologist (new staff member addition too). So they are not nerfing anything, they are presenting an added layer of challenge to overcome if you happen to be a manager of a nation notorious for under performing with great players on paper.

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Klose Played 98 Scored 24 for Bayern Munich

Klose Played 137 Scored 71 for Germany

Klose Played 83 Scored 35 for Lazio

Term 'nobody' was an exaggeration but my point is clear. Klose is more effective and proficient in a German shirt than at club level. To even be including Lazio here is being kind, it's ot exactly the league it used to be in the early 1990's. When Klose played for Bayern (a top european team) he could not find half the success he has in a German shirt. I think my point is clear.

So did you miss the 53 scored in 89 matches for Werder Bremen? His Lazio Rom stint being in the twilight of his career? The kind of tactic that wasn't suited to him most of his Bayern time, and still being a workhorse (and a whole plethora of other things during that part of his career)? The competition he faced in Bundesliga and Champions League being different than the average strength of teams he faced in those 137 national caps? I actually watched almost every Werder, Bayern and Germany match he played, so what you're trying to do is so awfully simplistic and wrong, it hurts every one following actual football beyond reading some stats.

Explanations were above, seeing as you don't want to see them, I'll leave you to your "amusement".

edit: Just for the sake of it and putting it simply, Klose and van Gaal didn't work out well (2009-2011).

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I didn't miss anything. He's had a good career, just does not change the fact he has been on fire alot more for Germany than his clubs. Although I get the feeling you might mention Kaiserslautern now too. lol

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Updated:

Sports Psychologist:

Hiring a sports psychologist can depending on their ability greatly improve a players chance of translating current club stats into their International appearances. It can improve a players International Adaptability (IA), and International Penalty Taking (IPT) ratings.

Players need time to develop a degree of trust with this member of staff. Changing Sports Psychologists too often can slow down player progress in these fields significantly.

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Not every team has players turning up in the same way they do for their clubs. Why? This is the answer.

Or, you know, because players just aren't that good, like mchbitil says. Some media outlets may try to tell you otherwise, but afraid it's true.

This "feature" seems like pointless window dressing to try and explain why "our brave boys" don't win the World Cup every year.

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Another reason why this couldn't work is with the newgens, i don't think anyone can be born good at international football or not so how could you even give someone who has never played international football an attribute in it, doesn't make sense to me.

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Another reason why this couldn't work is with the newgens, i don't think anyone can be born good at international football or not so how could you even give someone who has never played international football an attribute in it, doesn't make sense to me.

You'd have to randomise it. Which would make international management an absolute laugh riot to play in newgen times, wouldn't it? That 200PA player would be a world-beater if it wasn't for his 1 in International Tekkers!

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You'd have to randomise it. Which would make international management an absolute laugh riot to play in newgen times, wouldn't it? That 200PA player would be a world-beater if it wasn't for his 1 in International Tekkers!

or you could just hire him a sports psycologist i'm sure he can make it all better :D , what would end up happening is that you have to pick players from lower leagues because there international PA is better then anyone in the top league and would make for a very unrealistic simulation which this whole thread was about in the first place lol.

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Perhaps the problem is that the English players just isn’t that good, and it shows when they meet international opponents?

The English team has performed pretty much as expected in the last championships. Sometimes better, sometimes worse.

I don’t think there are many English players that would be considered in Germany or Spains squad even, and I could easily name 20 Spanish DMC/MC/AMCs who would get a place in the English team.

I don't think International adapdability really is a thing. Handling pressure, and playing in big matches is, as is general adaptability and players being better in one teams system then another. But all of this is in the game already.

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I don't think International adapdability really is a thing. Handling pressure, and playing in big matches is, as is general adaptability and players being better in one teams system then another. But all of this is in the game already.

And that puts it far more succinctly than I managed. Spot on.

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I think managers do their part in getting the best out of a squad. Man Utd, from Ferige to Moyes to Van Gaal - proofs in the pudding.

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England players aren't top notch for their clubs. It's just the hype of being english surrounding them that makes it seem like they're top notch. If Rooney wasn't english he would be regarded as an above average EPL player but not as the top player is he made out to be.

I voted no because of that reason. England are not a top team so SI should get their attributes right so they don't overachieve and not magically make them worse when wearing an england kit.

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Another reason why this couldn't work is with the newgens, i don't think anyone can be born good at international football or not so how could you even give someone who has never played international football an attribute in it, doesn't make sense to me.

Still work in progress:

Football Federation Stats:

Motivation

The motivation of a Federation can have a moderate effect on player morale during International windows. A player who is going through bad form and moral with his club can receive a moderate morale boost during his time in the International set up. A Federations motivation is effected by a nations results on the pitch, thus an opposite effect can take place.

Culture

The culture rating of a Federation is a major factor in determining the International Adaptability ratings given to future newgen players. The higher rated culture a Federation has the less pressure and more confidence a player has putting on the International shirt.

Federations World Ranking

The world rankings now have a moderate role in determining the IA ratings given to future newgen players.

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So the general feeling of those against IA is that English players are simply over rated and their stats needs to be brought down?

No, it's just not a very good idea. I fail to see why it is necessary, or any concrete, real-world, measurable example of it actually being a thing, rather than just something that someone pretending to be Opta can throw out in a smug attempt to look like a football boffin.

Still work in progress:

Football Federation Stats:

Motivation

The motivation of a Federation can have a moderate effect on player morale during International windows. A player who is going through bad form and moral with his club can receive a moderate morale boost during his time in the International set up. A Federations motivation is effected by a nations results on the pitch, thus an opposite effect can take place.

Culture

The culture rating of a Federation is a major factor in determining the International Adaptability ratings given to future newgen players. The higher rated culture a Federation has the less pressure and more confidence a player has putting on the International shirt.

Funny, I'm sure you mentioned that this was going to be a really simple one, and that we shouldn't "over-complicate things". Seems like your idea is just growing in complexity with every post.

Just what exactly is wrong with the current way of dealing with international football in this sense in FM? It's the best players for a country pitted against the best players of another. Why do we need to add in arbitrary numbers to handicap teams just to satisfy some imaginary need?

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No, it's just not a very good idea. I fail to see why it is necessary, or any concrete, real-world, measurable example of it actually being a thing, rather than just something that someone pretending to be Opta can throw out in a smug attempt to look like a football boffin.

Funny, I'm sure you mentioned that this was going to be a really simple one, and that we shouldn't "over-complicate things". Seems like your idea is just growing in complexity with every post.

Just what exactly is wrong with the current way of dealing with international football in this sense in FM? It's the best players for a country pitted against the best players of another. Why do we need to add in arbitrary numbers to handicap teams just to satisfy some imaginary need?

I don't see how its getting too complex, you will need some dynamic system for the two new stats I propose. We don't want them to stay static. There needs to be a system that determines how they are distributed, managed and weakened or improved. For exmaple if you were England manager you will have the added layer of challenge to overcome, because your team are notorious for under performing with players who at times over perform for their clubs.

If you think England are as great in real life as they are in this game then I am amused. Rooney is great at scoring against san marino, he doesnt score hat tricks against brazil though like he does in some of my games. Gerrard is awesome against a Poland or a Norway, where is he in the massive games for England? He is always there for the massive games for Liverpool though. Funny aint it. Lampard and Gerrard are notorious for not being able to play well together, in FM not a problem its a world class partnership. I could probably go through all of the england team but i think you should get the point by now.

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People can mock and make sly comments all day long. The poll does not lie, its pretty much 50/50 currently so I cant be alone in thinking something needs to be done to better reflect the international module. Not many alternative solutions being served up either, just naysayers.

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I don't think it's the terminology. How would you decide who gets what rating? More importantly, how would this affect newgens? What decides what they get for IA?

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I don't think it's the terminology. How would you decide who gets what rating? More importantly, how would this affect newgens? What decides what they get for IA?

Work In progress:

Football Federation Stats:

Motivation

The motivation of a Federation can have a moderate effect on player morale during International windows. A player who is going through bad form and moral with his club can receive a moderate morale boost during his time in the International set up. A Federations motivation is effected by a nations results on the pitch, thus an opposite effect can take place.

Culture

The culture rating of a Federation is a major factor in determining the International Adaptability ratings given to future newgen players. The higher rated culture a Federation has the less pressure and more confidence a player has putting on the International shirt.

Federations World Ranking

The world rankings now have a moderate role in determining the IA ratings given to future newgen players.

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I agree with you that english players are way overrated in fm. But imo you will need a dynamic rating for international matches. Then the highest rated countries at the start will always win.

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