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jayahr

The Raumdeuter - odd term

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Now I can understand people's frustration at the poor descriptions in game for roles, TIs, and PIs. And I get where people are coming from when they are asking for return of the sliders because of said confusion.

I, myself, have had my confusions with the current tactics system and have found myself wondering what exactly certain instructions do especially when combined with other instructions. It only gets worse when you consider certain instructions have secondary effects that players may or may not know about and may not want (like how shorter passing also reduces width and tempo or how play wider shifts passing focus to the flanks as well as increasing width).

Now I am perfectly happy with the sliders no longer being in the game. The shortcoming of the slider system was the fact that it had people focusing more about numbers than actually thinking about and creating logical tactical setups.

What I would have liked for them to keep was that part of the team instructions screen that showed you what your overall defensive line, width, tempo, time wasting, and passing focus were. That way people (after choosing their mentality, instruction etc) would be able to see what their overall width is. Or tempo etc.

Of course, now that I think about it, if the descriptions of roles, mentalities, instructions etc. were more detailed and clearer, then we wouldn't need that.

As the Raumdeuter is concerned (and it basically being made in honor of Thomas Muller), I'm not too sure how I feel about it. I'll always be fore more options. But I feel like it's a bit early to be 'cementing his legacy' you know. Making a role tailored to him specifically.

I like the addition of roles for wide players as I've felt they were lacking. Adding a wide playmaker and the Raumdeuter are a start. But what about a wide trequartista? Or a wide poacher or wide shadow striker?

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Raumdeuter could have been called Wide Poacher, that's certainly how I view the role description outside of the Thomas Müller association.

Before anyone asks I cannot offer an explanation as to why the role name was chosen, I was on holiday when it came up for discussion & these days I make a point of not accessing work emails when I'm on holiday.

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Despite the role being given a name in reference to Muller, as a style of play, I'd imagine it'd be equally suitable for Ronaldo, or Robben before he started defending a lot more in their treble season.

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Raumdeuter could have been called Wide Poacher, that's certainly how I view the role outside of the Thomas Müller association.
You beat me to it, I was coming here to say just that. Not only Muller but also Ronaldo and maybe even Podolski seem to suit this role.

btw can I ask some player examples for the new roles, especially the roaming playmaker and the inverted wing back?

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It would be nice that someone from SI to gives examples of players playing new roles. We can try to guess, but can also be wrong. If someone who developed the game said who were the models for the roles, we could stop guessing, and have definite knowledge. :)

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You beat me to it, I was coming here to say just that. Not only Muller but also Ronaldo and maybe even Podolski seem to suit this role.

btw can I ask some player examples for the new roles, especially the roaming playmaker and the inverted wing back?

Couldn't say so much about the roaming playmaker, but the inverted wingbacks were used a lot in Bielsa's 3-3-1-3, or lately, how Lahm and Alaba sometimes play.

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It would be nice that someone from SI to gives examples of players playing new roles. We can try to guess, but can also be wrong. If someone who developed the game said who were the models for the roles, we could stop guessing, and have definite knowledge. :)

Some examples which might help (remembering I didn't develop the game):

Inverted Wing Back - Lahm & Baines (noted for undercutting the winger)

Roaming Playmaker - Fabregas, Toure, Wilshere (box to box style, but playmaking behaviour)

Wide Playmaker - Silva, Ozil, Nasri

Raumdeuter - Müller, Podolski, Walcott

Not all 100% perfect and I know some smart arse will argue the toss but they are the general gist of the role & style.

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Couldn't say so much about the roaming playmaker
Yeah that's by biggest doubt currently. I think that all playmakers that I know that play as DM are basically deep-lying playmakers (Pirlo, Alonso, etc). I can't see a DM that helps in attack and in defense. Basically a box-to-box with playmaking duties?

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Fabregas could be roaming playmaker.

Edit:

Some examples which might help (remembering I didn't develop the game):

Inverted Wing Back - Lahm & Baines (noted for undercutting the winger)

Roaming Playmaker - Fabregas, Toure, Wilshere (box to box style, but playmaking behaviour)

Wide Playmaker - Silva, Ozil, Nasri

Raumdeuter - Müller, Podolski, Walcott

Not all 100% perfect and I know some smart arse will argue the toss but they are the general gist of the role & style.

That's basically what I thought, but I would like "official" information. Also, I can't think of wide target man besides Samaras.

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That's basically what I thought, but I would like "official" information. Also, I can't think of wide target man besides Samaras.

Won't promise anything "official" but you'll find those fairly accurate I think.

WTM - Lukaku plays role sometimes, seen Walters do it for Stoke too.

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Some examples which might help (remembering I didn't develop the game):

Inverted Wing Back - Lahm & Baines (noted for undercutting the winger)

Roaming Playmaker - Fabregas, Toure, Wilshere (box to box style, but playmaking behaviour)

Wide Playmaker - Silva, Ozil, Nasri

Raumdeuter - Müller, Podolski, Walcott

Not all 100% perfect and I know some smart arse will argue the toss but they are the general gist of the role & style.

That box to box + playmaking, Ander Herrera was doing that for Man Utd in the 3-5-2 formation they had pre season, I remember on the threads here most trying to duplicate it with DLP+Roam From Position, I tried BTB+More Risky Passes, neither nailed it.

I think Beckham might be another fair shout for Wide Playmaker.

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One question though: isn't the roaming playmaker role for the DM slot? How come you have Fabregas as an example? He doesn't usually play that deep. Unless the role can also be for the CM slot.

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I quite like the idea of player specific roles, at least in the way that they are described to us. Perhaps a few high profile players could be mentioned in the descriptions?

I've never heard the term Raumdeuter before, but if you said play like Müller/Podolski/Walcott I'd know exactly what you meant.

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I'm not a law graduate (I have a 20 year old law A/S-level if that counts) so I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine if a player's name was to be used in that way then we would need to get permission from them to do so.

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One question though: isn't the roaming playmaker role for the DM slot? How come you have Fabregas as an example? He doesn't usually play that deep. Unless the role can also be for the CM slot.

Yes, it's also available at CM.

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A very good example of the use of a "wide target man" would be the Norway team during the early and mid 90's. A team that punched well above their weight at that time. The "Flo pass" = pass from a defender - usually left or right full back - over to a giant wide man positioned on the opposite flank in a forward position, usually Jostein Flo (Tore André Flo's brother). The idea being that this giant would win the ball (air supremacy) - and flick the ball on to the lone striker or to midfielders storming forwards.

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It begins: the sliders with ridiculous amounts of notches are being replaced with roles with a ridiculous amount of interpretations.

Nothing's changed at all.

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I'm not a law graduate (I have a 20 year old law A/S-level if that counts) so I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine if a player's name was to be used in that way then we would need to get permission from them to do so.

Serious question: Are footballers names copyrighted?

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It's probably more of an image rights issue. I'm slightly confident that use of a real person's name in such a way as described above would require their permission because its use could be linked to a financial gain, in this case the sale of FM.

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Raumdeuter could have been called Wide Poacher, that's certainly how I view the role description outside of the Thomas Müller association.

Wide poacher would be much better. Thomas Müller is the only player who is called Raumdeuter and the role description in game doesn't represent his style of play.

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Same with Strootman who I have tried to get to play that way. Surely is issue for FM14 and previous is the box-to-box role has never been well applied in FM.

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Agreed. I didn't have a clue what a Raumdeuter was, but that description is quite clear. I imagine the other roles would have a review of their descriptions at least.

I bloody hope so.

I'm still waiting for the classic one push up, one drop back centre midfield role. =/

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I'm not a law graduate (I have a 20 year old law A/S-level if that counts) so I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine if a player's name was to be used in that way then we would need to get permission from them to do so.

having such degree it is btw the same for nicknames of people. didn't even think of that layer to the story. the term is, in Germany, exclusively used as a nicknamish description of Thomas Müller who may indeed be considered to hold the rights to his nickname...

See here for the legal issue:

http://www.slowfood.it/international/slow-stories/25112/schweini-scores-in-court?-session=query_session:42F943E109ea40D3CFtp8EE3B855

and some explanation which the Guardian's journalist did not have: The second part of his name is derived from an ancient expression for 'barn'. Just felt like saving the honour of his ancestors ;)

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Raumdeuter could have been called Wide Poacher, that's certainly how I view the role description outside of the Thomas Müller association.

Before anyone asks I cannot offer an explanation as to why the role name was chosen, I was on holiday when it came up for discussion & these days I make a point of not accessing work emails when I'm on holiday.

When Müller's agent gets in touch demanding his cut, you could change it to 'wide poacher' in German, to retain that 'continental' touch:

Breite Wilderer

sorted!

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I'm not a law graduate (I have a 20 year old law A/S-level if that counts) so I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine if a player's name was to be used in that way then we would need to get permission from them to do so.

Same reason why we dont have a "Makelele role" instead of "Anchor man" I suppose.

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Same reason why we dont have a "Makelele role" instead of "Anchor man" I suppose.

Makelele never gets the credit he deserves :/ :D

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A very good description I found IMHO: "Check it out. He stops looking at the ball. It doesn’t seem like the oddest thing in the world but just consider it for a second. HE STOPS LOOKING AT THE BALL. For the Raumdeuter, space is king." From http://theraumdeuter.com/raumdeuter-meaning/. And some funny pics :D

i6iJ91kBIcLIQ.gif

I don't really believe the term is odd... I would find it odd in English = space investigator, that shounds like comics :D

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I appreciate player roles as being a set of instructions making it easier to set up players to play how you want them to. However, I would also like to have blank roles for each position so that I can give players any instruction I want to without being restricted to predefined roles. I think it was last year's game where I wanted to replicate inside wingbacks (who now made it into the game because they have grown in popularity) but wasn't able to because NO player role in that position allowed me to pick "cuts inside with ball" or a similar instruction I now can't recall. As a football manager, I want to be revolutionary and not wait until player roles are recognized by the game in order to be able to replicate them.

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Raumdeuter - Müller, Podolski, Walcott

Not all 100% perfect and I know some smart arse will argue the toss but they are the general gist of the role & style.

Let's name some players: Gervinho, Villa maybe?

So basically it's just a wide forward that "moves into channels" without strict defensive tasks? Like many african forwards?

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Let's name some players: Gervinho, Villa maybe?

I would call Villa a perfect example of an Inside Forward (attacking). The way he played at Barcelona anyway. Just my opinion though.

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If being a world cup winner is an argument to have a role replicated in FM, than we'll need a role for every single world cup winner
It's an argument for having a role named for him, a role that is already worthy of being in the game.

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Still waiting for the Vinnie Jones/David Batty-type role- a combative midfielder who doesn't really care all that much about positioning or where the ball is, but is determined to just kick something. Hard.

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'Wide Centre-Back' would have been a role I would have appreciated.

Well i think Limited Full backs covers your need as to a Wide centre back, I used to play converted Cb's in FM 2014 there with this role with Hold position instruction and they seemed to be incredibly solid. Kind of like how Ivanovic plays for Chelsea. Or do you mean wide centre backs in a 3 at the back type formation? If thats the case, i do agree with you. Wider CBs in 3 at the back system need to play totally different than a traditional CB IRL, so i do think it could do with a role.

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I suggest you put a incompetent footballer with high bravery and aggression stat in the BWM role and you'll get plenty of red cards, which i assume is the main requirement you're after! haha

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Still waiting for the Vinnie Jones/David Batty-type role- a combative midfielder who doesn't really care all that much about positioning or where the ball is, but is determined to just kick something. Hard.

I think the footballing term for that type of role is.............MEATHEAD....... maybe it sounds better in German :cool:

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I think the footballing term for that type of role is.............MEATHEAD....... maybe it sounds better in German :cool:

Fleischkopf?

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Let's name some players: Gervinho, Villa maybe?

So basically it's just a wide forward that "moves into channels" without strict defensive tasks? Like many african forwards?

No, Gervinho is more IF than anything else. He does play defense in Roma, although IF doesn't quite cover that part.

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Yea plus the finishing skills of Gervinho no way can he be considered a poacher in any sort of way. Definitely an IF rather than a Raumdeuter.

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The Raumdeuter is a pretty good description of how Gervinho sometimes plays at Roma. That his finishing is below average (better than it used to be) demonstrates that he is not as good as Müller, not that he does not play this role. I suspect in FM15 Gervinho will be considered by most Assistant Managers about equally adept as winger/inside forward/Raumdeuter with plusses and minuses for all.

Though in truth Gervinho will play all three roles in a game for Roma depending on circumstances.

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