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jayahr

The Raumdeuter - odd term

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Good to see that the roles appears to have better descriptions as to what it does than before.

What I think would be good is if you could create your own "roles" to use like we can create our own tactics.

And have it that the role has to be saved in a particular folder and the AI managers can then use the roles you've created....and while we're at it maybe use your own saved formations/tactics too.

After all, if you're having success then other managers will be sure to try and take your ideas for themselves.

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I'm with Ackman and BoxToBox.

More roles please. If owt, I'm disappointed there are only four new roles. I'd certainly like more GK options, though I've no idea what's missing :D

The Loco - a ball playing GK! Think Rene Higuita, now that would be an interesting role haha.

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I think as long as the number of roles for each position doesn't grow to the point it becomes unwieldy, its fine, and good to have the choice.

I do think there's a danger of being anglo-centric in the roles some prefer. Football Manager is a global game and the choice of roles should reflect that.

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But ... wouldn't it be much simpler if we were simply allowed to customize a role 100% ourselves? No need for a plethora of roles then. If we feel that one is missing, we just make one. Simple.

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The role is a set of instructions itself, with the player instructions allowing you to tune it further.

You wouldn't be able to recreate the Anchorman role by using another DM role + instructions, for example.

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We have the Tactic Creator (with too may restrictions and one-size-fits-all solutions to my liking, but that's another debate), so why not a Player Role Creator?

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Well, and I'm just brainstorming here, if

The role is a set of instructions itself

then a Role Creator would presumably see you set the instructions as you wanted, and create a role from those instructions? For me, that would actually be a more logical way of building a tactic, as I could call the roles whatever I understood them as.

You, guy on the left midfield, your role today is "Guy Who Stays Forwards and Wide, Trying To Cross". You, defensive midfielder, your role is "Guy Who Stands Still And Kicks Anything That Comes Near Him".

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Actually a Role Creator is an interesting idea. I would imagine it looking similar to the tactic creator, where you would select the player, the position on the field, mentality and then have all the player instructions available. The problem would be that it would still need something like sliders, because sometimes when you said Close Down More, you want a little more and sometimes you want the player too be pressuring at all times. Just like Ackter said, you can't recreate a BWM(D) for example at the DM strata by using an Anchorman and telling him to Close Down More because he would still not play exactly like a BWM(D).

The idea is good, but it would need a lot of thinking and I have a feeling it would somehow just go back to the sliders we all wanted to get rid off in order to make the game more realistic.

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Hmm. Never understood what makes pushing buttons more "realistic" than moving sliders, me. The sliders had too many increments, that's all. Easily rectified. Other than that, they were just like pushing buttons ... except there was better visual feedback with the sliders.

And about not being able to recreate roles; well, that's where I imagine a Role Creator could help? After all, somebody at some stage created the role "anchor man". It exists in FM now. So why not give the gamer a tool so he could do the same, if he thought there were a role missing?

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Hmm. Never understood what makes pushing buttons more "realistic" than moving sliders, me.
Because those buttons have text on them. Concepts and terms we all know. The terms we don't know, like Raumdeuter, is explained. Sit Narrower, Cross More, Dribble Less are all easy to understand concepts. Get further forward makes a lot more sense than a few notches on the mentality slider did. Most people didn't know what all the sliders did anyway.

Edit: What exactly is the problem with using roles? What are you trying to create that you can't?

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a Role Creator would presumably see you set the instructions as you wanted, and create a role from those instructions?

Wouldn't work.

Selecting "Anchorman" is telling the player "I want you to play like an Anchorman" - the player instructions are in addition to this role, they do not define the role itself (though some of the player instructions will be part of it).

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The Raumdeuter role has the best description of all roles. I didn't know what to expect from a player in that role but that description says everything. Now, if SI could revisit their descriptions for other roles that would be great. Something along the lines of "does this attacking" and "does this defending" should be the base.

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You, defensive midfielder, your role is "Guy Who Stands Still And Kicks Anything That Comes Near Him".

Isn't that Stokes entire team tactic?

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Because those buttons have text on them. Concepts and terms we all know. The terms we don't know, like Raumdeuter, is explained. Sit Narrower, Cross More, Dribble Less are all easy to understand concepts. Get further forward makes a lot more sense than a few notches on the mentality slider did. Most people didn't know what all the sliders did anyway.

Edit: What exactly is the problem with using roles? What are you trying to create that you can't?

So imagine a slider with 5 increments instead of 20. Each slider positions had the corresponding text attached to it. Would that be more or less "realistic"? Come on. Pushing button or moving slider = same same.

There's no problem with using roles - except when there are some missing. But we see now that SI adds some. Presumably because someone thought they were missing? There will almost certainly be more missing in the future, - why wait for SI to add them if we can just make them ourselves?

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Isn't that Stokes entire team tactic?

And with the Role Creator, you could literally make it that :D

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So imagine a slider with 5 increments instead of 20. Each slider positions had the corresponding text attached to it. Would that be more or less "realistic"? Come on. Pushing button or moving slider = same same.

There's no problem with using roles - except when there are some missing. But we see now that SI adds some. Presumably because someone thought they were missing? There will almost certainly be more missing in the future, - why wait for SI to add them if we can just make them ourselves?

One of the main reasons that SI moved away from sliders was to give them the ability to fine tune roles without being constrained by the limitations of the slider system. Now, with each role, they can add little bits and details to make them more distinct and unique in a way that previously wasn't possible. You can't really do that with a role creator without just opening up the code.

But then, Personal Instructions do give you a role creator to some extent.

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So imagine a slider with 5 increments instead of 20. Each slider positions had the corresponding text attached to it. Would that be more or less "realistic"? Come on. Pushing button or moving slider = same same.

There's no problem with using roles - except when there are some missing. But we see now that SI adds some. Presumably because someone thought they were missing? There will almost certainly be more missing in the future, - why wait for SI to add them if we can just make them ourselves?

SI will never win with this. 5 notches will be too "simplistic" with not enough "fine tuning" (exploits) that can be done. If new roles are invented or brought forward, then they get added for FM16. Some roles have specialised behaviour, like the Half Back. Others will be the same, even though it isn't as easy to pick up. I imagine it is much easier (relatively speaking, of course) coding the ME using roles, rather than the open-endedness it used to have. So we're getting a better ME for it, for one thing.

EDIT: What THOG said :thup:

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One of the main reasons that SI moved away from sliders was to give them the ability to fine tune roles without being constrained by the limitations of the slider system. Now, with each role, they can add little bits and details to make them more distinct and unique in a way that previously wasn't possible. You can't really do that with a role creator without just opening up the code.

But then, Personal Instructions do give you a "role creator" to some extent.

So what you are saying is, that roles now can only be created within SI, and that there is no way that the gamer can be handed tools to make him able to manipulate the code to acheive the same result? Or indeed, that SI do not want to give the gamer such tools ... If so, that's an answer I can understand and accept. A much better answer than "Can't be done. Go away now". :)

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I never found sliders to have much sense to be honest. Had problems imagining how those conversations would go down in real life:"Look, last three games I told you to cut inside 76%, I'm not satisfied, so I'm ordering you to cut inside 78% from now on". The problem however is that SI apparently didn't make the transition from the sliders to the new system a successful one (yet).

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The Player Roles is more beneficial then sliders mainly because not everyone knows how to adjust the slider to make their players perform in a certain way that they want for example "The Raumdeuter" also sliders limit the tactic system and the way players of the game want each play want to play, it is to vague as well..

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Let me say my post was definitely NOT advocating a return to sliders HELL no. I LOVE the new tactics push button-like system. I just want a lot more choices to click on in player instructions in place of "roles". A LOT more. Really should be quite simple to implement, and would give you fair greater, and crucially, a far CLEARER idea of the instructions you're giving to your players. Ultimately, every single player that ever lived is unique in one way or another, yet S.I want them all to fit into their pre-defined "roles". Giving us greater freedom to instruct our players is absolutely the way forward IMO. Roll on FM16... :D

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So what you are saying is, that roles now can only be created within SI, and that there is no way that the gamer can be handed tools to make him able to manipulate the code to acheive the same result? Or indeed, that SI do not want to give the gamer such tools ... If so, that's an answer I can understand and accept. A much better answer than "Can't be done. Go away now". :)

Personally speaking I would say that SI don't want to give us a role creator at this stage.

As it stands both the AI teams & human teams have access to the same roles and options which means a level playing field. If we had a role creator the AI teams would be at a disadvantage due to not being able to create roles and there is probably a higher % chance that a ME exploit could be found/used by using a role creator.

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I'm with Bill Shankley in the "football is a simple game, complicated by idiots" camp.

Just get better players than the opposition, use logic to cover as much of the pitch as possible in defence and attack (or with the ball and without it) and sit back to enjoy.

So Shankley played either a basic, fluid or very fluid 4-4-2 and let his team of hard working and talented generalists do the rest.

Valeri Lobanovsky on the other hand was a control freak who made his players perform within strict systems and even choreographed specific goal-scoring moves.

You can do both... No one's forcing you to roll with the Raumdeuter crowd.

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Let me say my post was definitely NOT advocating a return to sliders HELL no. I LOVE the new tactics push button-like system. I just want a lot more choices to click on in player instructions in place of "roles". A LOT more. Really should be quite simple to implement, and would give you fair greater, and crucially, a far CLEARER idea of the instructions you're giving to your players. Ultimately, every single player that ever lived is unique in one way or another, yet S.I want them all to fit into their pre-defined "roles". Giving us greater freedom to instruct our players is absolutely the way forward IMO. Roll on FM16... :D

Is that not what the stats are for? Their jobs on the pitch remain the same, but their skills and personality dictate how they do the job.

Two wingers with different stats and ppms, on the right wing, their given job is the same, but who they are makes the difference.

Rodrigo Gomez, a potentially great one footed right winger. He doesn't play like any other winger given a winger role in the AMR slot, because he has low Teamwork, high Work Rate, Cuts Inside, Runs With Ball Often, and above average Decisions for a winger. So give him the same winger role as anyone, he still plays more like an Inside Forward(Attack).

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Is that not what the stats are for? Their jobs on the pitch remain the same, but their skills and personality dictate how they do the job.

Two wingers with different stats and ppms, on the right wing, their given job is the same, but who they are makes the difference.

Rodrigo Gomez, a potentially great one footed right winger. He doesn't play like any other winger given a winger role in the AMR slot, because he has low Teamwork, high Work Rate, Cuts Inside, Runs With Ball Often, and above average Decisions for a winger. So give him the same winger role as anyone, he still plays more like an Inside Forward(Attack).

THINK about it... if a winger only plays as a role which is decided on their skills & personality.. you will have LESS control as a manager.. it is up to the manager to find out the BEST role for the player and tell them to play in that specific role.. your basically saying managers should not instruct a player to play a specific role.

Ronaldo has a specific way of playing but if he moved to a club and a manager told him to play another way in another position and role.. as a player Ronaldo will listen to his manager DESPITE whether it fits his skills/attributes or not.

i feel like people are trying to downgrade FM with all these complaints and suggestions...

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To be honest, I think we could do with more info on player roles, beyond a shortish blurb.

Maybe a clickable "more info" link that takes users to a slightly extended description, a bullet point list of usual, expected behaivours (1. Will tend to run XXXX 2. Tends to pass XXXX) with maybe even some animated diagrams to roughly explain movement and pass types etc?

All you'd need would be an exclaimer clearly shown saying something like: "PLEASE NOTE: The behaviour of players in roles is influenced, altered and affected by your team's tactic and the roles of team mates and how they interact."

Could just be a pop up to help those with different preferences for learning. Not everyone can take it all in from writing alone.

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Let me say my post was definitely NOT advocating a return to sliders HELL no. I LOVE the new tactics push button-like system. I just want a lot more choices to click on in player instructions in place of "roles". A LOT more. Really should be quite simple to implement, and would give you fair greater, and crucially, a far CLEARER idea of the instructions you're giving to your players. Ultimately, every single player that ever lived is unique in one way or another, yet S.I want them all to fit into their pre-defined "roles". Giving us greater freedom to instruct our players is absolutely the way forward IMO. Roll on FM16... :D

Whether it's buttons that says Much less - less - default - more - much more, or a slider that says much less - less - default - more - much more, don't make a difference to me. What I want is better feedback. I want to know what it is I'm doing. Every detail of it. I want to see how team instructions influences each and every player. I want to see when team or player instructions cancels each other out, either fully or partially, or adds to each other. I want to see what changes with every player as a result of a team mentality change. Or a fluidity change. I want to know everything. And I want to be able to change things like tempo without it also automatically changing passing and width. As an example. I'll stop complaining when SI gives me that.

Re sliders/buttons: Those of us that miss the sliders do so because they gave much better feedback than what we have now. We don't miss them for their 20 increments. We lost something with the move away from sliders, and I want SI to give me that kind of feedback back, as soon as possible.

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THINK about it... if a winger only plays as a role which is decided on their skills & personality.. you will have LESS control as a manager.. it is up to the manager to find out the BEST role for the player and tell them to play in that specific role.. your basically saying managers should not instruct a player to play a specific role.

Ronaldo has a specific way of playing but if he moved to a club and a manager told him to play another way in another position and role.. as a player Ronaldo will listen to his manager DESPITE whether it fits his skills/attributes or not.

i feel like people are trying to downgrade FM with all these complaints and suggestions...

What's the point in different players if they all do exactly what you tell them and play exactly the same way?

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What's the point in different players if they all do exactly what you tell them and play exactly the same way?

They don't. There are player tendencies and PPMs that reflect the different ways in which individual players will interpret their role within a system. A player's technical, mental and physical abilities will also influence the specific way in which they behave and the extent to which they can actually carry out the tactical role.

Whenever tactical discussions drag on long enough, you always see this idea pop up that managers really have no input in how a player plays, what the team's objectives are, and how they've been trained to interact with one another to get the best out of their respective talents. Instead, apparently, there are just players who like to play a certain way and the managers throws them out on the field hoping it all comes together, but in most cases, this just isn't true at all. Players adapt their style to different systems, and this is what a role represents. Ronaldo has played multiple distinct roles under Ancelotti. There are some things that make Ronaldo Ronaldo, but this is always balanced by the way the system influences Ronaldo.

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They don't. There are player tendencies and PPMs that reflect the different ways in which individual players will interpret their role within a system. A player's technical, mental and physical abilities will also influence the specific way in which they behave and the extent to which they can actually carry out the tactical role.

Whenever tactical discussions drag on long enough, you always see this idea pop up that there is essentially no such thing as a manager's input how a player actually plays, there are just players who like to play a certain way and the managers throws them out on the field, but this just isn't true at all. Players adapt their style to different systems. Ronaldo has played multiple distinct roles under Ancelotti. There are some things that make Ronaldo Ronaldo, but this is always balanced by the way the system influences Ronaldo.

That's what I'm saying! It seems that those that want the sliders back, want extreme control over their players, predictability to a fault. Football isn't like that though, there has to be some level of individuality, and personality.

Continuing with the Ronaldo comparisons(btw, perhaps an ideal player for this Raumdeuter role), how many times has he shot from outside the box and skied it, when there were options, options I'm sure his manager would have preferred him to take. He's extremely, ridiculously even, effective in whatever role is asked of him(and played an even larger variety of roles at Manchester United), but there are always going to be moments where he does what he wants, or thinks is best, over what the next player would do.

The flipside is the same, there are no other wide left players who are going to play exactly the same as Ronaldo, even if asked to play the same role. Is that not a major factor of FM, finding the right player and role combos?

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Nothing to do with sliders/buttons. Sliders and buttons do the same thing. Pressing a button or sliding a slider 1 up or 1 down does the same, provided the increments are of the same value and equal in number.

How much control you want to have on your player(s) behaviour on the pitch, is a managerial style thing, not a button vs slider thing.

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It woulda been nice to get an Italian term. There must be one. There's one for everything! Surely Gervinho plays in such a fashion, and it's the one I've been trying to get him to play at Roma in FM14.

In any case Müller is an iconic player now - not strange to have a role named after him in the game, whether it exists IRL or not. And though I'm sure managers don't use these terms IRL it's useful to have as the full explanation for a role would not fit into drop down menu.

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the Raoumdeuter is just a nickname for Muller. There's just no way to defend that for some strange reason it's now in the tactical set up as a role.

Raumdeuter is a tactical role where only Muller can pull it off. He's designed for it.

No manager is going to ask someone to be Raumdeuter. They'll tell him to go buy Muller. but will be fun experimenting with this raumdeuter.

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There is a way to defend it, I just did it. FM has appropriated his nickname as a role for the purposes of labelling. Who cares? Also, how is this possibly a role only Müller can pull off? Many players can do it, most won't do it as well as Müller, but still can do it. It's true no manager will ask someone to be a Raumdeuter but nor will they ask someone to be a Treq. These are roles applied for a set of instructions that IRL a manager would outline.

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It woulda been nice to get an Italian term. There must be one. There's one for everything! Surely Gervinho plays in such a fashion, and it's the one I've been trying to get him to play at Roma in FM14.

In any case Müller is an iconic player now - not strange to have a role named after him in the game, whether it exists IRL or not. And though I'm sure managers don't use these terms IRL it's useful to have as the full explanation for a role would not fit into drop down menu.

How about the TREQUARTISTA?

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How about the TREQUARTISTA?
Not sure what you mean? The role in question is not a trequartista.

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Incidentally, "Space Interpreter" is how i describe my style of driving on the streets.

I'm fine with the addition of the Raumdeuter though, but what Im more concerned is what positions is it available to use Raumdeuter in? Because in my head (and the position Muller played in most of the World Cup games), the Raumdeuter can be played on either wing (AML/AMR) or the ST. If I can choose a Raumdeuter as my ST on my current FM14 save, I think my tactic could be complete.

So yeah basically, if the Raumdeuter was included for FM15, it should be available for a number of positions, not only for the ones out wide.

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It occurred to me yesterday after my original post that the roles are just a shortcut to a given collection of settings for a player in the same way that the shouts are a collection of settings that can now be applied with one click whereas before it would have needed adjustments to tempo, mentality, width etc to be done separately. Ultimately both sliders and the new buttons are just different languages for the manager to talk to the match engine. It also occurred to me that I could hypothetically take screenshots of the sliders for certain roles in FM13 and then take them back to Fm09 and apply them there.

I liked the sliders because regardless of how well you understood them, they gave a visual representation of the impact of your changes before you implemented them. However, I think the new system is much more logical and intuitive.

I'll also freely admit the limitations of my tactical knowledge are being brutally exposed over the last two or three versions so I'm doing my best to improve ?

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I'm fine with the addition of the Raumdeuter though, but what Im more concerned is what positions is it available to use Raumdeuter in? Because in my head (and the position Muller played in most of the World Cup games), the Raumdeuter can be played on either wing (AML/AMR) or the ST. If I can choose a Raumdeuter as my ST on my current FM14 save, I think my tactic could be complete.

So yeah basically, if the Raumdeuter was included for FM15, it should be available for a number of positions, not only for the ones out wide.

I don't think Raumdeuter will be available up top, as Müller doesn't play the role when he is brought in as a lone striker. And with Shadow Striker we have a proper AMC-role for Müller-style on that position, too. To limit it to AML/R is fine imho.

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The roles are just names for a collection of instructions and behaviours inherent to the type of role described.

Jesus, people will moan about anything these days.

Collection of UNKNOWN instructions and behaviours... If someone's first FM is FM14 or 15, he wouldn't know what is the difference between instructions of a DLF and a F9. It's not like there is in-game description of all instructions that are affected by role change. And roles are more rigid than slider system. If all options were unlocked in all roles, system would be considerably better, though.

It's not moaning, just a bit of disappointment with the direction of the development of the game.

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Collection of UNKNOWN instructions and behaviours... If someone's first FM is FM14 or 15, he wouldn't know what is the difference between instructions of a DLF and a F9. It's not like there is in-game description of all instructions that are affected by role change. And roles are more rigid than slider system. If all options were unlocked in all roles, system would be considerably better, though.

It's not moaning, just a bit of disappointment with the direction of the development of the game.

But if it's someone's first FM experience, they wouldn't know what to do with a bunch of sliders with settings from 1-20 either! A helluva lot easier to decipher single terms like DLF or F9, than trying to make out what slider A does with value X, combined with slider B, value Y and vice versa ;)

I also like the fact that with the roles, SI are able to code in some very specific behaviours for each role. With the code-wise complexity of an application as the ME, these specific behaviours wouldn't be possible with 'role creators' or slider only interface. There's no way the behaviour of the Halfback could've been implemented with a tickbox/slider thingie, making it also available to all other roles/positions. The amount of combinations and code-wise knockoff-effects would make the ME a crazily unstable experience if SI tried to incorporate all the specific role behaviours in a user-controlled setup.

Try playing around with even the simplest code language, and you'll quickly see what kind of complex creation the ME is. Everything has to be balanced, all settings taken into account, all 'ghost' behaviour from unknown knockoff effects eliminated, and so on...

With roles, SI can easily make a Busquets type of behaviour available to everyone, and make sure the role behaves like that! Imagine the amount of permutations if all roles/positions would have to have this kind of behaviour available? Make an MC perform the same way, or all players at once? Who should then split to make way for the HB's drop deep move? Also why not make him cut inside like an inverted wingback while we're at it! Oh, and Regista him a bit too, so he wanders off and gets playmaking status too. In fact, if we F9 him, he'd probably go even deeper than usual. How'd that work out! Actually I'd like all of my midfield players to do the same. What's that ME? Creating unrealistic/illogical decisions? Crazy results? Players acting unrealistic even though I told very specifically how to behave with only 100 settings and instructions? Damn you SI, for making the ME such an unrealistic experience :D

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Yes, but that dude couldn't know what is the crucial difference between DLF and F9, since there is only one-sentence description of the roles. At least, sliders gave us insight into differences between the roles. Roles are not bad, but they are too limited in terms of modifications available. In FM13, you could tailor roles anyway you want, which you can't do now. And no one forced people to touch sliders, once roles were introduced.

Busquets role could probably be added by modifying slider system like a Y/N box for returning to defense.

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A helluva lot easier to decipher single terms like DLF or F9, than trying to make out what slider A does with value X, combined with slider B, value Y and vice versa ;)

If the descriptions for the roles have been reviewed and presented in a much clearer, informative way than previously, then I agree. Otherwise, I don't. As of FM14, the descriptions are wordy and unclear, and they are difficult to compare with one another when assigning them or trying to build a cohesive tactic.

Fingers crossed this is no longer the case in FM15.

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Yes, but that dude couldn't know what is the crucial difference between DLF and F9, since there is only one-sentence description of the roles.

There's a bit more than that.

The player roles section in the tactic creator has at least two sentences for each role, plus an additional sentence in the player duties section. You can then edit the instructions for each role and check which instructions are already included in each role (like this).

Saying that, more detailed descriptions can only be a good thing.

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