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Striker set-up in a 4-5-1 system


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Hi there everybody.

I am just beginning on the second season of a Derby County save.

I managed to reach the prem on first try last season, but I suspect surviving in the prem is going to be a lot more difficult. Therefore I have adopted a slightly more defensive approach for this season, playing a 4-5-1 on the counter (using some of the principles in Cleon's (was it called the defensive arts?)), even though I am still tweaking it from day to day.

The one really big problem I have though is the fact that all of my three strikers are not that strong. They are pacy, and decent technically, but their strength is rubbish.

So my question is: Is there anyway to get a low-strength forward to function properly in a single striker system?

My set up:

Balanced/Counter

WB (A), CB (D), CB (D), WB/F (S)

DLP (D)

CM (S) CM (A)

IF (S/A) W(A) (Sometimes IF, my winger seems to cut in a lot even though his role is set to winger)

CF (S) < ---------- Now here is the problem: Low strength seems to make it hard for the forward to keep the ball and support the Wingers.

Team Instructions: Drop deeper, work ball into box, retain possession (Will probably add more as the season ticks along).

Any form for tips would be higly regarded!

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Well, no matter what role you set them to, strength will be an issue when they are closed down. What I think you want to try and do in that case is give them operating space so they have some time on the ball to pick out a good pass. To that end, you might try a DLF role on support (he will come deeper and while this may somewhat blunt his attacking effectiveness, he might find the space he needs as well.) Another similar thought would using them as Treqs. With the roaming and coming quite deep at times to get the ball, they might find the space needed to be effective. Treqs as I have seen them in my own save will still get on the end of attacking balls.

Really, your overall setup looks good to me with roles and duties in balance; you'll need to experiment with your CFs. Try the roles I suggested- even a false nine might be appropriate, and if you find them getting more space, then evaluate whether that is worth the tradeoff for lessened goal attacks.

One final bit of advice: buy/sign stronger strikers! :p

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Thanks for the advice. I will test it out and see how it goes.

It does seem that this years edition does not favor pacey strikers as much as earlier editions. I guess it is a good reflection of real life, as the classic pacy poacher seems a lot less effective these days.

Regarding buying more powerful strikers: It is on the agenda, but first season in prem gives you a limited budget and strikers are the most overvalued players by far.

I have to say that SI have a tendency to give technical/pacey players a bit too low strength. Players like Messi (who have 8 in strength) are really not that weak, they are really hard to push around attimes.

Anyways, I will try out treq/DLF and see how it goes. I'll update the progress as it goes along.

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This is a really interesting thread. I played a 451 Counter at Sunderland with a fast (15 pace), weak (10 strength) striker and ran into exactly these issues and ended up getting fired (it's all in the "Sunderland Slow and Steady" thread further down the front page)

Coincidentally, I picked up the Derby job just after being sacked by sunderland and am playing 451 Counter with a strong striker which is panning out ok so far (they were in a relegation battle when I took over but I've taken 7 points from the 4 games I've been in charge). The strength thing is definitely something I'm going to look out for in this formation in future.

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I take a look at the striker roles available and see what they ask the striker to "do extra". That means; does the role tell the striker to hold up the ball, waiting for a team mate to get into position? If so, the striker needs to be strong and with a minimum of balance, decision, teamwork and technique. Does it tell the striker to dribble/run with with the ball a lot? If so, the striker needs to be good at dribbling. If not good at dribbling, then fast, and make good use of the "knocks ball past..." ppm. And so on. I look at my strikers, and find a role for each of them that I think they can cope well with. And as far as strikers are concerned, I treat their roles as somewhat independent from my tactics and individual roles distribution elsewhere in the team. Somewhat, but of course not completely. If you find that you lack - in the rest of the team - roles that makes runs behind the opp. defense, you'll probably need your striker to provide some of that. Or vice versa; if you have plenty of runners, but lack creators, you need your striker to - at least partially - provide that. And so on. But the striker is the one role that you can - I feel - treat a little differently, that you can give a little independence from the rest of your setup. An example: I gave my striker (Giroud) a role in my team (Arsenal) that suited his skills perfectly; a TM/attack (in a lone striker formation). Now, many has advised that this will not work, specially not in a team like Arsenal. A target man? In Arsenal? You must be joking! A target man as a lone striker? You're mad!. Nevertheless, it made Giroud top striker in the Premier league, with a good margin, and indeed the top striker in Europe (counting the top 5 leagues). But wouldn't having a TM mean that too many passes would go straight up to him, bypassing Arsenal's abundance of top class midfield players? No it didn't - all I had to do was to have a playmaker role situated behind the striker. That playmaker would not pass the ball to the TM almost by default, as you'd might expect, but tended to distribute his passes to the player best positioned to do something useful with it. But it meant that when the TM got the ball, his role/duty was tailor made to his skills. Result: Goals. Oh, and plenty of assists too.

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Won't help you much as I play with a TM A which is working ok in a 451 but one thing I have tried is adding the PI "shoot less" on the striker and they are scoring more for me now. May have something to do with stopping strikers from shooting as soon as they hit the penalty area!!

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I would not exactly agree that people would find using Giroud as a target man as that preposterous, I would say that is the role he has had since he arrived. Not that much movement behind the

defence, but a lot of holding up the ball etc.

The main reason that it works for players like Messi, being a single forward, is that Barcelona more or less never plays the ball long. Which is perfectly fine if you can dominate other teams on the

ground, but me being Derby first season in the premier league that seems less likely.

One question: What do you guys think is the "treshold" for a single striker when it comes to strength? Or in other words, how much strength does he need to be able to not being pushed around all

the time?

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Messi - and other strikers in the same mould - compensates lack of strength with speed, technique and agility to evade bullying. As such there really is no "strength threshold". If you're gifted enough elsewhere, physical strength can be compensated for. As these kind of players prove on a daily basis. But I wouldn't ask strikers without sufficient strength to hold up the ball.

Edit And, of course, I wouldn't use a tiny lone striker in a tactical system that relied on hoofing long balls into the box.

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First game of the prem finished at home vs Crystal Palace: Lost 2-0.

I have to say that despite the not too bad score sheet I got utterly demolished. For what, at least in my mind seems an OK tactical setup and a bad, but not terrible squad I was surprised just how

weak we looked. One of the worst games I've seen on my saves.

Would some of you FM guru's be interested in watching the game? Maybe give me some pointers about where it all went wrong?

I tried to analyze the game myself, but it's hard getting a grip of what is the defining problems, as we we're pretty **** in all areas of the pitch. A second opinion would be great!

Personal remarks:

- My right back seem to struggle, a lot. For a player with OK stats he seems to put up pretty average performances (6.70 in championship average).

- Goalkeeper seems to hoof the ball a lot, even when there is available defenders to distribute too. I have activated distribute to defenders PI, he obviously didnt care too much about that.

- They dominated me physically, especially in the air.

- My midfield was absolutely bossed by their players, maybe not that much of a surprise as they have better players/stats. But not that much better though. Confusing.

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Messi - and other strikers in the same mould - compensates lack of strength with speed, technique and agility to evade bullying. As such there really is no "strength threshold". If you're gifted enough elsewhere, physical strength can be compensated for. As these kind of players prove on a daily basis. But I wouldn't ask strikers without sufficient strength to hold up the ball.

Edit And, of course, I wouldn't use a tiny lone striker in a tactical system that relied on hoofing long balls into the box.

Whatever. You had to evoke the name of a world-class player to make your point. How many teams can buy a world-class player? Thank You and good bye now.

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I am going to bump this, as humbly as possible. Been watching the horrible above mentioned game again, and I am still not that much wiser. Anyone in the mood for watching me getting demolished?

I'm not in the mood for watching anybody get demolished, but if you upload the pkm maybe I can at least try to help you ;)

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Messi - and other strikers in the same mould - compensates lack of strength with speed, technique and agility to evade bullying. As such there really is no "strength threshold". If you're gifted enough elsewhere, physical strength can be compensated for. As these kind of players prove on a daily basis. But I wouldn't ask strikers without sufficient strength to hold up the ball.

Edit And, of course, I wouldn't use a tiny lone striker in a tactical system that relied on hoofing long balls into the box.

Point taken, but he is newly promoted Derby; he doesn't have Messi or anything like, nor will he for some time yet most likely. In his case, his lone forwards are getting manhandled, and they don't have the world class attributes to compensate in other areas against Prem quality defenders.

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I do feel somewhat bad for my poor Johnny Russell, all this talk about him getting manhandled all the time. Poor fella.

Would you by chance have the possibility of watching the game (posted above) Dr. Hook? I think i'll make a new thread soon, with a lot more about the tactics and ideas behind. But for now its

mostly about putting out fires.

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- My right back seem to struggle, a lot. For a player with OK stats he seems to put up pretty average performances (6.70 in championship average).

- Goalkeeper seems to hoof the ball a lot, even when there is available defenders to distribute too. I have activated distribute to defenders PI, he obviously didnt care too much about that.

- They dominated me physically, especially in the air.

- My midfield was absolutely bossed by their players, maybe not that much of a surprise as they have better players/stats. But not that much better though. Confusing.

Your right back: doesn't seem too bad if he is playing "average" in the Prem. He's your attacking WB, so if your scorers aren't scoring, he is going to struggle to put up high match ratings as he isn't making assists or key passes. As long as he isn't costing your goals too much, it's probably fine.

The GK hoof: for me this is a longstanding ME issue. It appears that keepers will judge a pass to a defender as too risky even when it isn't an settle for a long kick instead. Try setting his passing to shorter also if you haven't already, and depending on the AI pressing, you might also set a specific defender as the collection point and see how that goes. I've not found a perfect solution for the hoofing keeper as of yet.

Where were you losing the most headers? (I haven't viewed your match, but I may have a look later if I get the time).

Midfield I would have to see what the AI was up to to offer you anything constructive.

A last thought on your striker issue: since you are playing a deep counter style, you may want to think about the pass into space shout so that your pacey strikers run onto balls behind the defence which might mitigate their kitten-like power.

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- To be honest he was allowing a large number of crosses from the opponent. But maybe i am being too harsh on him.

- GK hoofing is what it is I guess.

- Headers where lost all over the place, my midfielders seemed far from the ball at all times. Part of it was having difficult to press opponent, giving them too much time on the ball,

the other part was having physical trouble with their strength in the air. It might just have been Jedinak who was having a good game though.

- Pass into space seems like a good idea, maybe. I am suspect that this would led to a lot of hopeful passes me playing a counter-attacking style.

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My quote:

"Messi - and other strikers in the same mould - compensates lack of strength with speed, technique and agility to evade bullying. As such there really is no "strength threshold". If you're gifted enough elsewhere, physical strength can be compensated for. As these kind of players prove on a daily basis. But I wouldn't ask strikers without sufficient strength to hold up the ball.

Edit And, of course, I wouldn't use a tiny lone striker in a tactical system that relied on hoofing long balls into the box."

Point taken, but he is newly promoted Derby; he doesn't have Messi or anything like, nor will he for some time yet most likely. In his case, his lone forwards are getting manhandled, and they don't have the world class attributes to compensate in other areas against Prem quality defenders.

My quote was a reply to the Jensefaen's post directly before it: Quote: "The main reason that it works for players like Messi, being a single forward, is that Barcelona more or less never plays the ball long. Which is perfectly fine if you can dominate other teams on the

ground, but me being Derby first season in the premier league that seems less likely.

One question: What do you guys think is the "treshold" for a single striker when it comes to strength? Or in other words, how much strength does he need to be able to not being pushed around all

the time?" End of quote.

I expanded on Jensefaen's thoughts on why strikers like Messi copes, my opinion being that it's not only about Barcelona's lack of long balls, but that the player's skills distribution have something to do with why he works as a lone striker as well. And I also gave my opinion on the existence of a "strength threshold". That's it. I did not mention Derby, it was a general statement. I think it's quite universal; If your striker is not big and strong, he can compensate for it if he has good qualities elsewhere. Regardless of team or league reputation. However, if he wants his Derby - or any other team - to play predominantly high balls into the box, then no; that type of striker would not be wise. But there's no reason why he can't use a lone striker that is quick and agile, but not very strong, if he just adjusts his playing style. The notion that a lone striker has to be strong, I don't agree with. Strength is always a plus, but not compulsory. In FM I have many times used a rather small but quick and agile striker as my lone striker, quite sucessfully. It's all about the way you play. And as we know, strikers that is both very strong and have excellent stats technical, speed and agility, is very very rare, so depending on how you want to play, a weaker but more technically gifted/faster striker would sometimes be preferable to a big brute. Even if he's set up as a lone striker. I think it's perfectly acheivable to use a technically good and fast but not strong lone striker with Derby, but there would have to be adjustments to the way the ball is delivered to that player. He don't have to be Messi, he just have to be good enough where it counts.

If Derby's player quality relative the rest of the league is such that a physical, direct tactic is the only viable option for them, then yes; buy a decent strongman to put up front.

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My quote:

I wasn't having a go at you, I was just trying to stay on his topic here, where he found his men getting closed down quickly and muscled off the ball. Back up the thread I game him some suggestions to create more space for his forwards to mitigate this as you are 100% correct; it is all about choosing the right options. I just didn't want to get this dragged into an OT discussion of world class teams/players when he is not in that position as yet.

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I was not aware that we were going off topic. Messi's name was mentioned (by me) simply because he is arguably the best known current example of a lone striker that isn't big/strong. I could have used the name of a similar(ish) striker but with a reputation/status that would make him more likely to play for a team like Derby, but that would probably be met with a big "who?" from many readers. So I didn't do that. I was of course not suggesting that you just have to put a player of Messi's qualities into Derby, and bob's your uncle. Of course not. But a player with a similar skill distribution, only half as good? Sure you could.

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Hehe, that answer could be read in different ways aderow. I like to think you are talking about a striker who lack strength in all areas, that would be fun.

I guess my main problem is that his strengths does not make up for his weaknesses (mainly, and ironically: his lack of strength).

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I'd think a role that doesn't make the striker hold up the ball would be good. That's either trequartista or false nine (and possibly defensive forward) from the more supporting roles.

If you get a new striker you can use your striker out wide as an inside forward if you want. It sounds like he could be a decent goal threat from that position too.

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