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Lillywhite Dean

Unrealistic demands - is this accurate?

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I’m assuming there are to be no further updates to FMH14. If the developers agree that this is an unrealistic issue, maybe it can be addressed for FMH15.

I’m currently in my third season as manager of Club Brugge. I have won the league twice and the Belgium Cup once. This is my second season in the Champions League.

I scouted a player called Yannick N’Djeng from ES Tunis (a Tunisian club). His value is £3M and his current wage is £5,750.

I offered ES Tunis £6M which they accepted. In the contract negotiation stage, I was told that Yannick N’Djeng doesn’t think I can meet his demands.

The maximum wage I can offer is £19K. I offer this along with a £350K signing on fee. The contract is rejected.

I adjust my budget to increase my wage offer to £25K. Again the contract is rejected because I cannot meet his demands.

I withdraw from the contract negotiations feeling frustrated. Is this realistic? A player who competes in the Tunisian football league has the chance to transfer to an European league where he can also compete in the Champions League. He is also offered 4-5 times the wage he currently receives.

I understand that the Belgium league does not have the same reputation as the English, Spanish, German, French leagues. And I get that Club Brugge are not the most glamorous club but surely this has to be a step up from ES Tunis - both professionally and financially?

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How good roughly is the player? He might be holding out for a move to a top side.

If you have some examples of this with top clubs it would be good to see. Having said that, if a club is known to be rich players will sometimes push things with their demands beyond what the club might be realistically able to offer...

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It happens often. I've seen players refuse my contract and join other clubs, which appear to be of lower status or aren't in European competition like my club, for a lower wage. It would probably help if FMH stated the reputation of clubs so that we can see more easily if something is amiss with the contract offer system.

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I have to agree with the comments made by Vane. This does seem to happen a lot in FMH and although Alari, your comments seem plausible, I don’t think this is actually the case. On this particular occasion, the player in question remained at his club and continued to play for them until his retirement (he was good but he was in his late 20s and was rated 3 stars). I was later offered the job at Manchester Utd and have continued to experience similar situations where players playing for low rep clubs turn down the chance to join me because they’ve demanded a wage of 80K+ (up to 12 times more than what they were currently being paid). I could understand it if you signed a player by offering them double than what they were currently earning and then in a season’s time, they ask for a new contract because they’ve become an established player within the squad but for them to flatly refuse a move to a massive club because they wanted a 500% pay rise and won’t budge on the matter seems unrealistic.

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Alari you have often said in the past that the match engine does not know which team is controlled by the player and which is controlled by the computer.

Is this also true in the transfer market? Because it seems like it is not.

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I couldn't tell you for sure in the transfer market, there is a hell of a lot of code there.

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I couldn't tell you for sure in the transfer market, there is a hell of a lot of code there.

More than for the match engine?

It just seems strange to me that a player would turn down a move to your club over wage demands, and then move to another club at reduced demands. It's like the game world is discriminating.

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More than for the match engine?

It just seems strange to me that a player would turn down a move to your club over wage demands, and then move to another club at reduced demands. It's like the game world is discriminating.

There is definitely no bias against humans in the transfer market - however there are a lot of non-wage factors involved in the decision making such as (but not exclusively):

* Loyalty/Interest - some players will be loyal to their existing clubs, others might have an undue bias towards the team which took the first interest in them (ie. Liverpool offered a higher way, but Man Utd approached me first and I wanted a team which really wanted me).

* Division/Country - some players will be interested more in certain leagues/divisions than others; for instance the Premiership is more appealing than the Championship, playing in England might appeal more than playing in the US when a player is younger (and vice versa when older if he's trying to prolong/milk his career) etc.

* Language Barrier - while languages aren't 100% modelled in FMH the game does take into account this side of things to a certain extent with some presumptions about languages known based on the players nationalities and prior playing experience.

* Club relationship to other clubs - a player at Everton might prefer to join Chelsea rather then Liverpool if he's a loyal player because he won't want to alienate the supporters who've helped him in his career so far.

* What your club can offer - some players will negotiate and request a high wage because they know the club can pay it - that doesn't mean they won't join for less if you negotiate with them, but why should they be cut-price if you can pay more (would you accept a job for half the salary you knew they'd pay you?).

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There is definitely no bias against humans in the transfer market - however there are a lot of non-wage factors involved in the decision making such as (but not exclusively):

* Loyalty/Interest - some players will be loyal to their existing clubs, others might have an undue bias towards the team which took the first interest in them (ie. Liverpool offered a higher way, but Man Utd approached me first and I wanted a team which really wanted me).

* Division/Country - some players will be interested more in certain leagues/divisions than others; for instance the Premiership is more appealing than the Championship, playing in England might appeal more than playing in the US when a player is younger (and vice versa when older if he's trying to prolong/milk his career) etc.

* Language Barrier - while languages aren't 100% modelled in FMH the game does take into account this side of things to a certain extent with some presumptions about languages known based on the players nationalities and prior playing experience.

* Club relationship to other clubs - a player at Everton might prefer to join Chelsea rather then Liverpool if he's a loyal player because he won't want to alienate the supporters who've helped him in his career so far.

* What your club can offer - some players will negotiate and request a high wage because they know the club can pay it - that doesn't mean they won't join for less if you negotiate with them, but why should they be cut-price if you can pay more (would you accept a job for half the salary you knew they'd pay you?).

That's good to know, both that there is no bias and that all of those factors play a role.

However, I'm sure I read Alari say earlier (could be as long as a year ago) that the loan system had been tweaked to make it harder to loan in players, apparently because it used to be too easy to improve a lower-league team with loan signings. Are you saying that as long as a proposed loan move suits both the loanee and his parent club that the move will likely go ahead, even if the player will make a big difference to your team? I know that if he is that good, he might be better served going to a team in the league above yours, but if you are the only team interested, then surely it's better that he goes to you than sit in the reserves?

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That's good to know, both that there is no bias and that all of those factors play a role.

However, I'm sure I read Alari say earlier (could be as long as a year ago) that the loan system had been tweaked to make it harder to loan in players, apparently because it used to be too easy to improve a lower-league team with loan signings. Are you saying that as long as a proposed loan move suits both the loanee and his parent club that the move will likely go ahead, even if the player will make a big difference to your team? I know that if he is that good, he might be better served going to a team in the league above yours, but if you are the only team interested, then surely it's better that he goes to you than sit in the reserves?

Yes he will move IF he's interested - unfortunately the ego of quite a few players will prevent them from loaning too far down the pyramid and their friends/advisors/coaches might dissuade them especially from joining semi-pro clubs where training might not be of as high a standard as they're used to etc.

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Yes he will move IF he's interested - unfortunately the ego of quite a few players will prevent them from loaning too far down the pyramid and their friends/advisors/coaches might dissuade them especially from joining semi-pro clubs where training might not be of as high a standard as they're used to etc.

Okay. I have just one more question regarding transfer bias.

Having played dozens of seasons over the last few versions of the game (ever since it came to Android), I can say with confidence that I have never once had a sale of one of my players break down over personal terms. Players that I sell are quite happy to move down a division and accept a significant wage reduction, whereas trying to sign players with high wages from the league above your own is difficult, to say the least.

So if there is no bias in the transfer market (i.e. Managers and players do not know if they are dealing with a computer-controlled team or a human-controlled team) then why would this be?

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So if there is no bias in the transfer market (i.e. Managers and players do not know if they are dealing with a computer-controlled team or a human-controlled team) then why would this be?

Simply put the AI managers tend to play 'safe' when making bids and only bid on players who are interested in joining them - this was originally done because mobile devices couldn't handle too much processing and so having AI bids drop through at the contract stage ate up processing time and bogged the game down with little actual 'gain' in gameplay terms.

Think of it like they search for players using the 'interested' filter that humans have.

Now mobile devices are getting faster its entirely possible I'll remove that optimisation at some stage - but there are more important areas which can be enhanced than that in the short-term imho.

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Simply put the AI managers tend to play 'safe' when making bids and only bid on players who are interested in joining them - this was originally done because mobile devices couldn't handle too much processing and so having AI bids drop through at the contract stage ate up processing time and bogged the game down with little actual 'gain' in gameplay terms.

Think of it like they search for players using the 'interested' filter that humans have.

Now mobile devices are getting faster its entirely possible I'll remove that optimisation at some stage - but there are more important areas which can be enhanced than that in the short-term imho.

Marc, I must say, I really appreciate all the effort you go to in responding to these questions on the forums, especially these technical questions about how the game works under the hood.

I'm really looking forward to an announcement about the next game coming soon.

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