Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
jpcote09

Tricking the Wizard – Guide for Understanding the Tactical Creator Dynamics

Recommended Posts

That's a fantastic thread, enjoyed every line of it - splendid work.

May I translate it to my native language and put it on our Football Manager forum? I will put an original link of course :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wonderful thread.

I was struggling a little bit on my save, went over to FM13, applied my tactic to a test save and I could see where I was going wrong. Thanks to you I helped getting my Cardiff team 4th.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's a fantastic thread, enjoyed every line of it - splendid work.

May I translate it to my native language and put it on our Football Manager forum? I will put an original link of course :)

Yes you can. Thanks for your comments and I'll be glad if it can help people who don't know English. I believe somebody is already translating it to French though, so if it's French I can point you to that person so you don't do the work twice.

Wonderful thread.

I was struggling a little bit on my save, went over to FM13, applied my tactic to a test save and I could see where I was going wrong. Thanks to you I helped getting my Cardiff team 4th.

Glad to know the guidelines helped you. In the future, hopefully people won't have to resort to such drastic measures to see what is going wrong with their tactics, but for now using FM13 to 'see' the mechanics of our changes can be really helpful, as you saw. Finishing 4th with Cardiff is a nice achievement, kudos for that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you so much jpcote09 for this very useful thread

The comparison with FM13 clearly shows as FM14 (without sliders) forces players to play in a sort of "blind mode": you make changes but it is impossible to know which parameters this changes affect

I hope FM15 will fix this issue giving to players all the information (better if in a graphic way) they need to know which are the impacts of the changes they are making

Thank you again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brilliant thread. Really helped me understand mentality. Looking at the AI coaches they have a playing mentality of very cautious through to attacking. So I assume

Very Cautious = Defensive

Cautious = Counter

Balanced = Standard

Adventurous = Control

Attacking = attacking

With the others being Extreme mentalities. Many thanks for your good work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wonderful thread, thank you :applause:

Just a question about this statement:

One final word about *Fluidity* which is unknown to many users (I just realized it myself) : it slightly affects pressing. More fluid tactics will increase ‘Closing Down’ for every player by small amounts (probably so they act more as big fluid units), and for a reason still unknown to me the ‘Very Rigid’ fluidity also slightly increases closing down. Note that this was seen in FM13, maybe it’s not the case in FM14 anymore.

How does fluid tactics and very rigid tactics affect simultaneous Closing Down ????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
very cautious through to attacking. So I assume

Very Cautious = Defensive

Cautious = Counter

Balanced = Standard

Adventurous = Control

Attacking = attacking

This is FANTASTIC thinking..... can anyone from SI confirm if this is true? I have always wondered what the coaching profiles really meant. I am going to use this in the upcoming stretch of games to set my def line etc. Very interesting theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is FANTASTIC thinking..... can anyone from SI confirm if this is true? I have always wondered what the coaching profiles really meant. I am going to use this in the upcoming stretch of games to set my def line etc. Very interesting theory.

I'm not from SI and I can't confirm that. However, I would like to point out that those are the individual coach's preferences, not necessarily how they play with their current team. I prefer to look at stats and tactical/goals trends from their team report in order to have a better idea of how the manager plays their team.

Also, remember that cautious tactics can be made to play very close to more attacking tactics, and vice versa. For example, I currently am working on a 'Counter' mentality tactic that I use when I really need a goal, and it usually works. So be careful when looking at other managers preferences. I would advise assessing their playing style during a match instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wonderful thread, thank you :applause:

Just a question about this statement:

One final word about *Fluidity* which is unknown to many users (I just realized it myself) : it slightly affects pressing. More fluid tactics will increase ‘Closing Down’ for every player by small amounts (probably so they act more as big fluid units), and for a reason still unknown to me the ‘Very Rigid’ fluidity also slightly increases closing down. Note that this was seen in FM13, maybe it’s not the case in FM14 anymore.

How does fluid tactics and very rigid tactics affect simultaneous Closing Down ????

I'm deeply sorry, but I'm not sure I totally understand your question. The only answer I can see myself giving you is that :

-Assume that Closing Down is at '0' for Rigid or Balanced Fluidity

-Very Rigid will increase that closing down by '1' increment for every player

-Fluid will increase that closing down by something like '3' increments for every player

-Very Fluid will increase that closing down by something like '5' increments for every player

Those values might not be exact, but it's approximately how it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got confused because of the statement more fluid tactics will increase Closing down (...) Very Rigid also slightly increases Closing Down, didn't quite understand how opposite fluidity could increase Closing Down. So, considering this great thread you started, if we want a high pressing, a hassle opponents like wolves :-) it should be Very Fluid. This is correct ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, generally, yes, it is the Fluidity that increases 'Closing Down' the most. Be careful though, because by using a Very Fluid tactic, your players will probably have high levels of creative freedom, so their natural character will probably shine through. Thus, if they are players with low Aggression, Bravery, Work Rate (and others, but you get the point), they will not hound opponents as much as you would probably like them to.

If you want to play an intense pressing system, I would recommend either having a high defensive line with possibly a more aggressive mentality, and/or use the TI Hassle Opponents. Those are more efficient than just Fluidity by itself IMO. That being said, it all depends on your tactics as well, and personally, I like Fluid and Very Fluid veyr much when I want to press (but as I said before, I have to get the right players to do it efficiently).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think it will be fine because my focus is always to sign players with good mental attributes rather than technical, but managing FCPorto neither won't be a problem.

I would thought so, an agressive mentality would help an intense pressing but I'm testing wwfan's view on Barcelona with the Counter mentality, i.e., less agressive so I guess that although the team finds more space to pass the ball, the intense pressing is affected by the lower mentality :-(. I think we are getting to a point where FM should have different sets of TI, such as with and without the ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This could go down as one of the best posts in the history of FM14.

Well thought out and well relayed with excellent screenshots.

If anyone is still struggling this is the thread that should close the gaps for them.

Thank you for this.

:applause:

Took the wards (one by one) out of my mouth!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't want to speak for jpcote09, but I think I can take a shot at answering this.

In short, yes you could replicate overall mentality changes by tweaking PI's and TI's. For instance, if you played on "standard" overall mentality, but then used the TI's of: "much higher D-Line" + "Much higher tempo" + "Play Wider" + "More Direct Passing" then you'd be setting the team up to be extremely aggressive, as if it were playing on an "attacking" overall mentality.

I could be wrong, and again I don't want to speak for OP, but I think this is right.

Agreed with you, but wouldn't it be good if we could have some visual reference to see if different settings (a certain mentality + some TI's) are really the same thing and work in asimilar way?

Developing logical football theories to explain the game is great but having some confirmed "truths" would be even better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No problem.

Right, a lot of things change while counter-attacking, but that's my point too, "look for overlap" is taken into account by the ME during counter-attacking through the middle.

The coder may have forgotten about it, may have deemed it unworthy of mentioning or it may even be a knock-on effect that he didn't think about. I 've done coding myself so none of the above would surprise me. Why don't you just try it next time you get a chance, Cleon? You 'll see it.

Are we back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rashidi1 is a name I haven't seen for a very, very long time!

Is this a fleeting visit, or a glimpse of a return to increased activity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rashidi1 is a name I haven't seen for a very, very long time!

Is this a fleeting visit, or a glimpse of a return to increased activity?

Definitely not a fleeting visit. Looking forward to seeing the light :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Definitely not a fleeting visit. Looking forward to seeing the light :-)

Welcome back - there's a lot to learn as things have changed a lot since FM13.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I just double-check something? Are both FM13 and FM14 the same 'under the hood'? E.g. Changing the team mentality or fluidity will have the same effect in FM14 as it did in FM13?

As I've probably said in a number of posts elsewhere, I've really struggled with the lack of visual representation of the changes in TI's caused by changing mentality etc. If I can confirm that the changes have the same impact across versions, then that will be a major step forward for me. Sorry if this has already been answered...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Welcome back - there's a lot to learn as things have changed a lot since FM13.

I noticed from the first moment i loaded it up and it wanted to know what kinda man i was..thought it knew i was the boss by now lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can I just double-check something? Are both FM13 and FM14 the same 'under the hood'? E.g. Changing the team mentality or fluidity will have the same effect in FM14 as it did in FM13?

As I've probably said in a number of posts elsewhere, I've really struggled with the lack of visual representation of the changes in TI's caused by changing mentality etc. If I can confirm that the changes have the same impact across versions, then that will be a major step forward for me. Sorry if this has already been answered...

It would be great to have a visual representation of those changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They are essentially the same at a Team Instruction / Mentality and Fluidity level.

Thanks for the confirmation :)

It would be great to have a visual representation of those changes.

I've said this a few times already in other posts and threads - I think this would be a massive help. If not sliders, how about an 'estimated heat map', which will show you an approximate width etc.? (admittedly, this wouldn't show the impact at a player level, which the sliders did).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the confirmation :)

I've said this a few times already in other posts and threads - I think this would be a massive help. If not sliders, how about an 'estimated heat map', which will show you an approximate width etc.? (admittedly, this wouldn't show the impact at a player level, which the sliders did).

I've addapted just fine when sliders went off, I think most people have but also maybe because we had still memory of the changes when manipulating TI. For those who haven't played FM ever before FM14, they also didn't miss sliders. But a heat map or what so ever, any reference would be nice. I like to know what I'm messing with, it's basic and logic to know. A good example is the fresh news I just received at the Stupid Questions Thread: who would guess that Tight Marking is automaticaly activated when using Hassle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to this day... when creating a tactic I run fm13 as a reference... I don't know, it's just those sliders, they paint a picture where roles and duties, they use invisible ink :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
to this day... when creating a tactic I run fm13 as a reference... I don't know, it's just those sliders, they paint a picture where roles and duties, they use invisible ink :D

I urge you to let go, it's always easier once you have. It's like giving up smoking/chocolate - hard at first, but you gradually don't feel the craving anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys,

Have been much less active in recent times, but I'm trying to outline an update to this guide for the FM15 version. I don't know when I'll have the time to write it, but hopefully the info in here is still relevant and up to the point. If there is no point in updating the guide, please let me know so I don't waste my time doing that. Thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I found this guide to be one of the most helpful in building my understanding of the match engine, especially when it comes rigidity vs. fluidity. It's a brilliant resource and I would love to see an update if you have more to add.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A great guide and it has helped me think about the game differently, have i got this right that the mentality and team shape fix out a lot of what the team does in terms of phases of play, how deep and how they play in general. Then you have roles to determine what phases of play specifically each player contributes to and then individual instructions on how they personally play, with team instructions on how the team is supposed to play? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As alot of others have said a great guide, that i have used on a 4-4-2 formation on my Fm15 save...getting good results with a Wycombe..will post some stats up at a later time, it's really opened my eyes and made me think about what i want my teams to do...cheers for your efforts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an amazing thread :) thanks for taking the time to educate. Will be interesting to take what I've learned into the game.

I just have a couple of questions. I like my teams to be very patient with the ball, dominate possession and shut the opposition down when we don't have the ball. From reading I feel like "patient mentality" would be the best way to go, but wouldn't that incorporate the counter aspect into my tactic that I don't really want to have.

Secondly I am guilty of being very impatient and watching the games on "key moments", to get the best from my tactics and the game will I have to watch a more comprehensive version of the match?

Thanks again for taking the time to write this and hope my questions make some sense :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JayKinobi -

There are multiple ways to achieve what you want. Combinations of Mentality, Fluidity, TI and PI. There are good threads discussing different approaches to achieve Barca/Bayern style play. I started a Barca save and tried to create a style similar to what you're seeking but couldn't get it. I settled on dominating matches if not possession. Like Cleon says, it is what you do with possession. There are games when I have 65% possession and games when I have 45% possession (at home!). But what is consistent: I have 25+ shot attempts, and opponent has averaged single digit shot attempts with very few, if any, CCC.

Regarding your second question: you get out what you put in. I watch in comprehensive because it works for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Jay, thanks for the kind words and sorry for replying so late, I am excitingly overwhelmed by my new day job and don't have a lot of time to play FM anymore, let alone come to the forums, which is a shame.

Let me answer your second question first. You can watch matches however you like, but if you don't watch at least a couple of matches in Full Match (or at the very least Comprehensive), you're never going to be able to identify what is problematic with your tactic. For example, a player could have a decent match rating, but some aspects of his game put his teammates in trouble and they make mistakes. If you're not careful, you'll think the players making mistakes are the problem, when really they are not.

If you want to try to dominate possession, you should indeed start with the more cautious mentalities. As you said, Counter (and Defensive as well) incorporate a counter-attacking proneness that you might not want if you really want to be very patient. To prevent that, you could try a couple of different things:

-Using the Standard mentality instead and use cautious TIs such as Close Down Less, Stay On Feet, Drop Deeper, and your usual suspects shorter passing retain possession lower tempo etc.

- Using the Take a Breather TI. This TI is intended to be used in short spells during a game but I'va had great success using it in some tactics to either control the game or waste time. Depending on your system it could work really well.

- Maybe try using more "Support" duties than you would normally do. This will prevent too many players going forward and their teammates being inclined to pass the ball quickly up the field as a result.

Watch the matches and tweak from there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just came across this and learning a bit more. Is there anyway of getting the screenshots and images to show. I would like to see in graphic what the poster of the thread is showing 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just came across this and learning a bit more. Is there anyway of getting the screenshots and images to show. I would like to see in graphic what the poster of the thread is showing 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...