SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 But how do you know whether to pronounce it in French or in Dutch? How would you know De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it and not the way the Dutch/Belgians pronounce it? Is it because of the De in De Bruyne? Yep, wasn't thorough enough. De Bruyne is also derived from Dutch. It actually means the brown (the brown one) - and is clear dutch to the Dutch speakers, and normally to the Walloons as well. So, it should be pronounced in Dutch/Flemish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 How would the name sound in Dutch? According to Wiki it's more of a Br-oe-nuh (maybe Br-ow-nuh is more accurate) sound, whereas in French it's obviously more like Br-oy-nuh (which seems to be the way everybody (myself included) says it). Basically, it should be more like Broenuh (Brownuh) instead of Broynuh? Language is fascinating... (I'm a bit of a loser ) The talk of Belgium has reminded me that they butcher Alderweireld as well. It's not an easy name to pronounce but "Al-der-why-reld" is just hideous Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 How would the name sound in Dutch? According to Wiki it's more of a Br-oe-nuh (maybe Br-ow-nuh is more accurate) sound, whereas in French it's obviously more like Br-oy-nuh (which seems to be the way everybody (myself included) says it).Basically, it should be more like Broenuh (Brownuh) instead of Broynuh? Language is fascinating... (I'm a bit of a loser ) The talk of Belgium has reminded me that they butcher Alderweireld as well. It's not an easy name to pronounce but "Al-der-why-reld" is just hideous Like this, mate -> scroll to the Dutch one -> Theredone (which is me) http://www.forvo.com/word/kevin_de_bruyne/ and like this one http://www.forvo.com/word/toby_alderweireld/ (don't listen to the first one, it's a dodgy regional accent, haha) although you could say that Alderweireld could be pronounced slightly different - the wei like "why" indeed.... it's an odd one, this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 Here's Jelle Vanendert by the way: http://www.forvo.com/word/jelle_vanendert/#nl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbert_o154 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I can see why Vanendert threw you off though. Belgian names don't always leave the 'van' as a seperate word - I think we always do, or at the very least it's extremely uncommon not to. Had it been spelled Van Endert it would probably have been more obvious to you. The name ending in 'dert' presumably didn't help either, it probably suggested it rhymed with 'angleterre'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett.spurs Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I don't really have any issues if you and your mates want to butcher Vertonghen and Chiriches' names (and god knows how many names you English butcher) - but from a professional commentator and sports journalists I expect a much better performance. For Chiriches I say Kiri-kesh and Vertonghen pretty much just as it's spelt. Both are probably wrong but as long as the link between pronounciation and player is obvious then there's no problem in my view. The club is Bayern München - it says so on their badge ffs - so I have always and will always call them Bayern München, München, or Bayern. I'm not sure of your point on CSKA - it isn't one word, it is an acronym which standards for Central Sports Army Club (translated into Russian the ordering of words change so it becomes CSCA and for whatever reason the second C becomes a K). Then why not say Deutschland? Why is it ok in some circumstances to make entirely different words for a country in English but people/club/place names have to be pronounced in their native language? As for CSKA, I've heard it pronounced as something like "sheshka" by Russian commentators so take it up with them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 For Chiriches I say Kiri-kesh and Vertonghen pretty much just as it's spelt. Both are probably wrong but as long as the link between pronounciation and player is obvious then there's no problem in my view. Kiri-kesh is close. It's Kee-reh-kesh. Vertonghen is more or less as it looks, but some people (UK commentators in particular) forget everything they're taught with the GH sound and pronounce it as "Ver-tonguh-en". Even though the word "though" isn't pronounced as "tho-guh", for example. It's "Ver-tong-en" (the tong part sounding likes tongues at a BBQ are said). Then why not say Deutschland? Why is it ok in some circumstances to make entirely different words for a country in English but people/club/place names have to be pronounced in their native language? As for CSKA, I've heard it pronounced as something like "sheshka" by Russian commentators so take it up with them. Because the club is Bayern Munchen, they have named themselves that. They don't call themselves Bayern Munich. Calling the city Munich is fine because that's the English way to say Munchen (the city). But the club is Bayern Munchen, not Bayern Munich. It's the same - I can't stand "Inter Milan". The club is "Internazionale". Call them Inter or Internazionale. If you must use the Milan part, it's Inter Milano or Internazionale Milano. It isn't about "pronouncing Bayern Munchen in German", it's about calling Bayern Munchen by their name - which is Munchen and not Munich. Like Red said above, you don't just change club names to suit your own pronunciation. The club is Bayern Munchen, so call them that. They've never been Munich, so it's wrong to call them that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Here's Jelle Vanendert by the way: http://www.forvo.com/word/jelle_vanendert/#nl Yeah I checked this one out before I made the post because when you said how the BBC got his name wrong, I was wondering how they did so (I don't know how the BBC commentators pronounce Vanendert but I got it wrong myself anyway so w/e ). As for Alderweireld, I pronounce it how you do but obviously without the Dutch accent (being Scottish 'n' all). I'll correct my De Bruyne pronunciation in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorando Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it No not at all. He is Flemish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 No not at all. He is Flemish. Well I know that now - previously I had thought his name followed French pronunciation (I know now that I was incorrect to think that, as Red has pointed out) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorando Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 But how do you know whether to pronounce it in French or in Dutch? How would you know De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it and not the way the Dutch/Belgians pronounce it? Is it because of the De in De Bruyne? Lots of French speakers have Dutch names and vice versa. You cant really tell what language they speak going by their names. Thibaut Courtois or Mignolet are french names but they are dutch speakers. Van Buyten, vanden Borre are dutch names but they are french speakers etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Gonzo Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 but we don't adjust the team names. We will say the team, which is based in Berlijn, but they are called Hertha BSC Berlin. Hertha BSC Berlin is wrong. BSC does mean Berliner Sport Club, so it's just Hertha BSC or Hertha Berliner Sport Club as long version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 Hertha BSC Berlin is wrong. BSC does mean Berliner Sport Club, so it's just Hertha BSC or Hertha Berliner Sport Club as long version. Fair enough, but my point is that it is Berlin (in Dutch) and not changed to Berlijn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Lots of French speakers have Dutch names and vice versa. You cant really tell what language they speak going by their names.Thibaut Courtois or Mignolet are french names but they are dutch speakers. Van Buyten, vanden Borre are dutch names but they are french speakers etc... Well yeah, but you don't pronounce Courtois/Mignolet any different in dutch than you would in french do you? spot on with the french speakers with dutch names & vice versa though, came in this thread to say that. Wonder if we actually pronounce Chadli & Bakkali the right way.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 Lots of French speakers have Dutch names and vice versa. You cant really tell what language they speak going by their names.Thibaut Courtois or Mignolet are french names but they are dutch speakers. Van Buyten, vanden Borre are dutch names but they are french speakers etc... True. But then you do pronounce Van Buyten and vanden Borre in the Dutch way. Courtois and Mignolet in the French way (I'm sure we could butcher those to Dutch...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Jeroen Thijssen Posted July 3, 2014 SI Staff Share Posted July 3, 2014 Wonder if we actually pronounce Chadli & Bakkali the right way.. Funnily enough,eg. Khalid Boulahrouz is pronounced differently in Arabic than in Dutch... or well, there's a slight difference. But we do it wrong... http://www.forvo.com/word/khalid_boulahrouz/#ar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 True. But then you do pronounce Van Buyten and vanden Borre in the Dutch way. Courtois and Mignolet in the French way (I'm sure we could butcher those to Dutch...) Out of interest, how would Mignolet and Courtois come out in Dutch? As for Boulahrouz, always just assumed it was obvious/easy. Not much of a difference between the Dutch and Arabic pronunciations there tbf, just that the Arabic speaker emphasizes the "AH" sound more than the Dutch speakers, which is an Arabic thing afaik. FWIW, the Dutch way is exactly how I say it and probably most of the world says it. There's no need for as much emphasis on the AH sound imo. e: Unless you were referring to the Khalid part of his name, in which case I'd say that the same way the Dutch do, but I have little/no exposure to Arabic names so I am ignorant to the pronunciation of KH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 think in most cases the french/dutch way of pronunciation is just a small difference in what part of the word is stressed. Maybe the french 'r'. Other than that I don't think there's huge differences. Tbf the names will all sound slightly different in various dialects as well so.. The antwerp way of saying De Bruyne won't be the same as in west-flandres I imagine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett.spurs Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Roberto Soldado. I've heard it pronounced as Solao by Spanish speakers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Gonzo Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Fair enough, but my point is that it is Berlin (in Dutch) and not changed to Berlijn. It was just funny because that's more a typical German annoyance. For example "FC Arsenal London". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Speaking of pronunciation.. Are there any fellow Belgians annoyed at Frank Raes' desire to pronounce any Portuguese names overly correct? I swear if I ever hear him say MarcelOE again my TV will not survive.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorando Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Out of interest, how would Mignolet and Courtois come out in Dutch? Courtois would sound like 'cow-her-toys' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Speaking of pronunciation.. Are there any fellow Belgians annoyed at Frank Raes' desire to pronounce any Portuguese names overly correct?I swear if I ever hear him say MarcelOE again my TV will not survive.. How do you think it should be pronounced? :confused: The thing about Marcelo that always got to me is not knowing how to pronounce it - I hear people calling "March-ello" and others call him "Mart-sello"... what it the proper/Brazilian way? I've always said Marchello but I haven't a clue. On Forvo it's seemingly Martsello, but they're all Spanish pronunciations there... seen that apparently "Marcello" (the first name) is pronounced like Marchello, but honestly I'm not sure e: then again, Marcello as a first name is Italian, so it would definitely be March-ello. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Courtois would sound like 'cow-her-toys' Hahahaha, I love this one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 How do you think it should be pronounced? :confused:The thing about Marcelo that always got to me is not knowing how to pronounce it - I hear people calling "March-ello" and others call him "Mart-sello"... what it the proper/Brazilian way? I've always said Marchello but I haven't a clue. On Forvo it's seemingly Martsello, but they're all Spanish pronunciations there... seen that apparently "Marcello" (the first name) is pronounced like Marchello, but honestly I'm not sure e: then again, Marcello as a first name is Italian, so it would definitely be March-ello. The part that annoys me is the way he says the 'o' in Marcelo. Any Portuguese 'O's he pronounces as 'ooh' as if he's saying Marcelu It may or may not be correct, but it annoys the hell out of me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 The part that annoys me is the way he says the 'o' in Marcelo. Any Portuguese 'O's he pronounces as 'ooh' as if he's saying MarceluIt may or may not be correct, but it annoys the hell out of me Ohh, I see. Never knew that it should be an "oo" sound. So is it March-ell-oo or Mart-sell-oo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I'm not sure, we need PMLF for this wonder if there's a difference in pronunciation between Portuguese and Brazilians, like Belgian vs Dutch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaint Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 The "gn" sound is like a "nyuh" sound - think of "Mignolet" - "Meen-yo-lay". Which would naturally make it "Dee-nyuh" I think. But I can't say for sure... a Frenchmen (or natural French speaker) would be most appreciated right now Unsure if anyone else already answered this one, but you're correct actually. Digne in french is pronounced as Deen-yuh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 As FaceCrusher said higher up, there probably is some quite strong differences: Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese will sound like different languages to foreign people, though the words are mostly the same.There are almost 500 years of separated evolution, plus Brazilian-Portuguese phonetics have some African influence. The fact alone that it's "Honaldo" in Brazil but "Ronaldo" in Portugal suggests there probably is some quite big differences. Probably the same way American and British English is different to some extent too, although the differences are a lot smaller (and mostly superficial/spelling-related) than the differences in Belgian/Dutch and Brazilian/Portuguese, it seems. e: Should clarify that in Portugal it's not quite "Ronaldo" the way a brit says Ronaldo, but it does have a clear R unlike the Brazilian way which doesn't. Perhaps "Rhhhhonaldo" is more appropriate for the Portuguese way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Unsure if anyone else already answered this one, but you're correct actually. Digne in french is pronounced as Deen-yuh Glad someone clarified I was sure I was right because I studied French for 5 years and you pick up on these things, but the commentary was making me doubt myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 e: Should clarify that in Portugal it's not quite "Ronaldo" the way a brit says Ronaldo, but it does have a clear R unlike the Brazilian way which doesn't. Perhaps "Rhhhhonaldo" is more appropriate for the Portuguese way? It's difficult to explain, but we have 2 sounds for R. One, when used in the middle of a word, like "Pereira", is very similar to the English way. The other, used at the start of a word, like "Ronaldo", or in the middle if a double R is used, like "Barros", is a much stronger sound, which the English don't use. Difficult to explain, similar to the French R sound, or the Spanish J in "Juan", but stronger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 It's difficult to explain, but we have 2 sounds for R.One, when used in the middle of a word, like "Pereira", is very similar to the English way. The other, used at the start of a word, like "Ronaldo", or in the middle if a double R is used, like "Barros", is a much stronger sound, which the English don't use. Difficult to explain, similar to the French R sound, or the Spanish J in "Juan", but stronger. I understand. It's why you say "Ha-mee-rez" and not "Ha-mee-hez", right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I understand.It's why you say "Ha-mee-rez" and not "Ha-mee-hez", right? We say neither, in Portugal we say rrha-MEE-resh, with the sound I was talking about at the start. The second R is the same as in English. Brazilians may say it a bit different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 We say neither, in Portugal we say rrha-MEE-resh, with the sound I was talking about at the start. The second R is the same as in English. Brazilians may say it a bit different. I thought you were Brazilian, my bad! But yeah, there's seemingly more emphasis on the "rrha" sound you describe than a Brazilian speaker would put on it. Portuguese seem to say it as "rrha" whereas Brazilians seem to say it as a throaty "ha" sound, there's not really an R there from what I can hear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I thought you were Brazilian, my bad! But yeah, there's seemingly more emphasis on the "rrha" sound you describe than a Brazilian speaker would put on it. Portuguese seem to say it as "rrha" whereas Brazilians seem to say it as a throaty "ha" sound, there's not really an R there from what I can hear. It's a way to put it. I actually think Brazilians say it somewhat similarly, but with a less deep sound, as if they were only making half the sound. In Portugal it's similar to the sound you make when you have a tickle in the throat, must be an arabic influence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Kiri-kesh is close. It's Kee-reh-kesh. Vertonghen is more or less as it looks, but some people (UK commentators in particular) forget everything they're taught with the GH sound and pronounce it as "Ver-tonguh-en". Even though the word "though" isn't pronounced as "tho-guh", for example. It's "Ver-tong-en" (the tong part sounding likes tongues at a BBQ are said).... The problem for me, a particular case for non-native English speakers, aside from my inability to learn stress, is that Ki-ri-kesh and Kee-reh-kesh sound exactly the same. There is no difference. It's a good thing that they invented the international phonetic alphabets. Although I'm not using it because it then makes me use Character Map very extensively. Plus, it's understandable that commentators in England can't pronounce it accurately. The letter ș is particularly common only in Romania. You see kit manufacturers and football websites learning to put letters with umlauts or accents, but there are still uncommon letters. If the Spurs official website doesn't write Chiricheș as Romanians will write it, English commentators will understandably just go with usual letter s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhikapp Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 This is how you pronounce Vlad Chiriches by the way, Spurs were kind to do show you all on their soundcloud from all the social media outlets there is... https://soundcloud.com/spursofficial/how-to-pronounce-vlads-surname Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 The problem for me, a particular case for non-native English speakers, aside from my inability to learn stress, is that Ki-ri-kesh and Kee-reh-kesh sound exactly the same. There is no difference. It's a good thing that they invented the international phonetic alphabets. Although I'm not using it because it then makes me use Character Map very extensively.Plus, it's understandable that commentators in England can't pronounce it accurately. The letter ș is particularly common only in Romania. You see kit manufacturers and football websites learning to put letters with umlauts or accents, but there are still uncommon letters. If the Spurs official website doesn't write Chiricheș as Romanians will write it, English commentators will understandably just go with usual letter s. Kee-re and kiri sound the same to you? :confused: So if you kick a ball, do you kick it or do you kee-ck it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Kee-re and kiri sound the same to you? :confused:So if you kick a ball, do you kick it or do you kee-ck it? Again, no difference for me. I would say "kik". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 And Merriam-Webster agrees with me: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kick 1kick verb \ˈkik\ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Again, no difference for me. I would say "kik". How can you say there's no difference, then? :confused: You said kee-re and kiri sound the same to you. The ki in kiri is the same sound as kik. The kee in in kee-re is like bee with a k at the start. They sound nothing alike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 How can you say there's no difference, then? :confused:You said kee-re and kiri sound the same to you. The ki in kiri is the same sound as kik. The kee in in kee-re is like bee with a k at the start. They sound nothing alike. Kick and bee are homophones for me. That could be because I can't learn through listening. I can learn only by the other two media: reading and doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbert_o154 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I think this gets lost in translation since in Dutch the i in an open syllable gets pronounced as 'ee'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Ah, I see. The same way Spaniards struggle to differentiate between an elongated i and a short i. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
av3ry Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Keylor Navas. Surely its Kay-Ler. Not Kee-Lor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Kay-lor/ler, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 how can it be both? I'd think it's lor as to my knowledge in Spanish they don't pronounce the written lor as ler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 kej-lor na-bas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 how can it be both? I'd think it's lor as to my knowledge in Spanish they don't pronounce the written lor as ler. To me, lor and ler when said at proper talking speed have no difference in sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 in English maybe, but "lor" is an o as in "door" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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