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krlenjushka

Finances in lower league clubs

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What factor in game are responsible to decide how much money amateur club will spend in 1 season? I have some Serbian lower leagues and amateur clubs have about 15-20k € expenditure per season. I want to decrease that amount but dont know how.

1. Nation "economic factor"

2. Club reputation

3. League reputation

...or some other option could be responsible for this. If someone know something about this please share with me :thup:

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I still have this issue. Also is there any way to set sponsors money in lower league clubs. I dont wanna that small have 500k balance in just 5 years. Its not realistic.

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I also need to know this. A lot of amateur clubs are getting rich in divisions that they shouldn't get that rich, promoting themselves to pro clubs in the 4th highest tier. The only thing I can imagine to stop this is to give each club an unsolvable debt so that their finances hold back.

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I'm currently trying to solve these problems. I'll test and report back.

For now I'm editing the attendences. I saw some lower league clubs with outrageous attendences. So I checked, one had 2700 attendance while irl they have 1700. Match income for them was huge and they had 1000 season ticket holders. While irl they have 1700 supporters per match. Also minimum and maximum attendances were way to high and those increase while the reputation increases anyways so I decided to lay some boundraries and I'll post the results here.

One way I had already tried was downgrading the rep of both club and league, that didn't work.

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I tried to edit sponsors because its huge money for serbian lower leagues.

Maybe its best option to add fixed sponsors for next 30 years and to give money in competitions-partitipation or by position.

This way you can control money in every division level.

Im testing this last 10 days.

I also think i will set semi-pro to all clubs. i cant control money if some clubs are semi pro and some amateur. In serbia-level 4 and 5 in almost every club some players are semi pro or have some money from club.

I had 1 issue- or i think its issue. In season #2 clubs from 1 child division becomes semi-pro. In other child divisions this is not case. Reputation of clubs is similar.

Dont understand why.

My level 5 clubs spend 20-30k and they need only 3-5k from sponsors or grants.

Will test further and let you know but i think competition level  money is best option because you have control

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In my test I ser no prize money, no competition money and no tv money. The club that promotes itself from amateur to pro first is the one with high average match attendance (2700), the only one who stayed amateur has the least average attendances (300). Even though the last named one has 700k on its balance (most of it is earned by getting far in the national cup so that's plausible).

It is still not enough, but it is a small step forward. 

I'll do a debt test now and reply later.

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Serbia have small financial standard and i want to set this like in real life and thats main problem here.

48k from kit sponsor is unreal. 400 is good 😁 

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So what is main factor for this?

Reputation of club?

Some setting under nation?

Also my clubs becomes semi pro on 4th tier and with reputation about 1000

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That's what I'm trying to figure out. My guess is that they do it whenever they have enough money and amateur clubs have a lot of money in this game while irl they don't. So I'm trying to influence their finances in some way. Club/league rep does not seem to do this but I haven't lowered it extremely much.

So I'm going to create a closed third tier league, make 4 teams exactly the same and then change each 2 teams. Two with super low rep, two with killing debts, two normal clubs but with a lot of supporters, two clubs exactly the opposite with no fans whatsoever etc.

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i have sometimes 2 x 48k.

48k for kit and 48 for general sponsor

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So I'm testing the following:

3rd tier, closed competition. Every club has 2000 rep (local), rep of division is 66, every team has an amateur status, 700 supporters on average and there is no prize money whatsoever.

- 4 clubs have default settings
- 2 clubs have extra rep (5000, national)
- 2 clubs have less rep (100, obscure)
- 2 clubs have 2000000 debt with 5% interest rate
- 2 clubs have more fans (2000 on average)
- 2 clubs have less fans 
- 2 clubs have a general sponsor worth of 500 for one year
- 2 clubs have a kit sponsor worth of 500 for one year
- 2 clubs have a general and a kit sponsor of each 500 a year

Result after year one:

Attendances and season ticket holders:
All clubs have 220 season ticket holders except for the clubs with different rep and different fans.

Normal clubs (2000 rep and 700 attendance) have 220 season ticket holders (31%)
Clubs with high rep (5000 rep and 700 attendance) both have 545 season ticket holders (78%) and even though there are way more season ticket holders, actual attendances were all around the 700.
Clubs with low rep (100 rep and 700 attendance) both have 175 season ticket holders (25%), real attendances were still around 700 even though the rep was low
Clubs with more fans (2000 rep and 2000 attendance) both have 620 season ticket holders  (31%)
Clubs with less fans (2000 rep and 50 attendance) have 15 season ticket holders (30%)

So what this says is that Reputation does not really affect attendances directly, but it greatly influences the % number of season ticket holders.
Attendances influence attendances a lot actually, but it does not influence the % number of season ticket holders whatsoever as seen of the 31%.

But actual attendances are also influenced by the club's results. Clubs with losing streaks also lost a lot of fans during the season.

Income:
Also funny to see was that the more Attendances a club had would result in those clubs taking on debt. Very weird but both clubs took a loan of aprox 700K, and they also got 2.500.000 income by grants a year and 900.000 in investments a year while other clubs got zero for both. So high attendances means a LOT more income

Clubs with less supporters had 200.000 income, while normal clubs had 500.000 income. So the question is, where did the investments and grants come from? You shouldnt be making millions with only 2000 fans...

And while normal clubs received around 80K for a sponsor deal, high reputation got 550K a year for sponsor deals while low rep clubs got 30K a year.

 

So conclusion, if you want to keep clubs little you have to give them low rep and the least fans. Seems logical but both influence a different kind of income. But first I got to find out why those two clubs with 2000 fans got 3 million euros a year gifted to them. It might be because the min, average and maximum attendance in the editor were all close to eachother but I'll have to test that to make sure.

 

Another way probably to cripple a lot of amateur clubs is by editing tax rules I suppose, setting up a 2 million debt did not work because the game did not give those clubs any debt at all. Setting up a corporation tax with a high rate for the first batch of profit to keep the amateurs finances in check. I also saw you can set the tax rate for each division level. It might not be the solution we wanted but its still a work around that should work.

 

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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I tested reputation and its goes from 1600 and up.

teams with < 1600 repuatation get 48k € for main kit sponsor.

cant decrease that-it seems this number is lowest possible.

Can you confirm this for your nation also?

Also i used "not set" status in clubs and reputation about 1000 is trigger for semi-pro.

I guess this is best option for all clubs under 2nd level (in my case).

 

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1000 is a fast trigger imo. In Holland almost nobody wants to become semi pro so that will mean that I have to set everything unrealistically low.

If only there was an option to controll a league pro status through the editor.

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7 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

1000 is a fast trigger imo. In Holland almost nobody wants to become semi pro so that will mean that I have to set everything unrealistically low.

If only there was an option to controll a league pro status through the editor.

I think best option is to use "not set" option for status and let game decide. For example i have 1 division in level 5- almost all clubs are amateur but in season #2 almost all clubs are semi pro. When i set "not set" status this change happens in season #1.

Conclusion is - we just stop this change with our status settings.

Also there is no option to decrease "kit sponsor" under 48k €.

Its not acceptable for my system and i will probably use position money to control income in every club in my system.

Finances are nightmare in FM- especially in lower league clubs and i think SI should pay more attention to this problem.

Game becomes too easy because of this. Also they should find some way to set real "condition" in smaller countries.

48k for kits in 5th tier club in Serbia is to way too much.

They should link that "economic factor" setting (or add some other setting to control this) with complete finances for some countries.

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 But position money will mean that they get extra money next to the kit sponsors does it not?

I think you should set a division corporation tax to keep their profits in check.

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3 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

 But position money will mean that they get extra money next to the kit sponsors does it not?

I think you should set a division corporation tax to keep their profits in check.

Yeah but i can set sponsors for next 30 years for all clubs. 10 € each and thats it. This way i can control money in each division level. Not ideal solution because news will be different but its better that now.

Never tried to add that tax

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I haven't tried it yet. But I'm probably going to set a corporation tax like this:

Lower cap: 0
Upper cap: 200.000
Tax rate: 20 (like normal)

Lower cap: 200.001
Uppercap: none
Tax rate: 100

And then set this for the 3rd divison, this way they can make profit until 200k and then everything will be taxed. Maybe it's to harsh, I don't know yet.

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I made some test about income options under editor and managed to get some potentially good results.

I tested all 18 editor options under "other income".

Here is my knowlege so far:

1. Kit Sponsor - called "Main kit" in game.  Its variable based on clubs reputation. IMO too much money is given with this option. I tried to use "same amount" option but this option is not given in season #2. Instead game use "additional kit sponsor" and gives again game default amount - 48k €. Can be controlled using 30 years period income. BTW this is most added option in game when its not added in editor.

2. Government/Council grant - called "Grants" in game and its not on sponsors panel-its shown under income panel. Its fixed value and no difference if i use "fixed value" or not. Good option only if you want all clubs have same amount for reason.

3. Stadium Sponsor - called "Ground" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. Similar amount like "Kit Sponsor". I tried to use "same amount" option but no luck - 48k is given next season. Can be controlled using 30 years period income.

4. General Sponsor - called "General" in game. I think this is also variable but im not sure- this option need more testing. Sometimes its added-sometimes not. Im not sure what is trigger for this. 48k is also default value.  Will edit this when i test this more.

5.  Individual TV deal - called "Individual TV deal" in game. Its fixed value if added on list. No difference if i use "fixed value" or not. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.

6. Other income - not sure yet. Need more testing.

7. Club Membership - called " Club Membership" in game. Its fixed value if added on list. No difference if i use "fixed value" or not. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.

8. Kit Sponsor (Secondary) - called "Away kit" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. About 1/2 amount of "Stadium Sponsor". Good option for lower leagues. See picture under. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.

9. Kit Sponsor (Other) - called "Additional kit sponsor" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. Same amount as "Away kit" but sometimes is added instead "Main kit" (probably when this option is not added).  Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.

10. Parashute Payment - i guess this is fixed option for parashute money in releagted clubs from lst season. Of course in leagues where exist that.

11. Back of shirt - called "Back of Jersey" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. About 3/4 amount of "Away kit". Only under 1000 reputation this options have same amount - 19k. Good option for lower leagues. See picture under. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.

12. Shorts - called "Shorts" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. About 3/4 amount of "Away kit". Only under 1000 reputation this options have same amount - 19k. Good option for lower leagues. See picture under. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list. As you can see - same as "Back of shirt" option.

13. Training Kit - called "Training Kit". Same as Shorts.

14. Youth team - called " Youth team" in game. Its variable based on clubs reputation. About 1/4 amount of "Shorts". Best option for lower leagues. See picture under. Im not sure how this option is added (or is this added at all) in game if its not on the list.  At 6000 reputation this option gives about 90k-its not enough for big clubs but for clubs under 2000 reputation this is best option.

15. Training ground - called "Training ground" in game. Same as Shorts.

16. Continental competition. I guess this is option similar to "Parashute Payment". Fixed value for qualification to continental competition in previous year.

17. Equity injection - need to be tested but think similar to previous option.

18. Total commercial income - i tried to add this option but nothing happens so i guess its broken. Will test again.

 

Youth team money income based on clubs reputation:

 

BGRe3eJ.png

 

Shorts/ Back of Jersey/ Training kit/ Training ground money income based on clubs reputation:

 

y9E8fYN.png

 

Away kit money income based on clubs reputation:

 

PRhn9kC.png

 

 

Conclusion:  You can use some of these 3 options to control money income in your league system. Choose amount that is good for your state financial power.

This test was in Serbian leagues- level 5. I will try to change competition reputation and i will try to change country-need to know is there any other factor in that have influence on this amounts or this is default for whole FM.

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46 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Nice. Can you test grants with amount of supporters?

I will try but i think grants are fixed. Also i havent noticed difference in any income based on supporters.

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On 2017-05-06 at 01:18, Slabbekoorn said:

Another way probably to cripple a lot of amateur clubs is by editing tax rules I suppose,

Setting them to semi-pro would cripple them too. Salaries would be a huge problem. 

I don't play FM17 but in the older version I typically play in lower leagues or 'other nations' after editing nation rules. My experience is the total opposite to this thread. I find that money is always tight. I set clubs to semi-pro though because it keeps players at their clubs(until the re-negotiate their contracts to non-contract). 

I will investigate this further. 

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8 minutes ago, Fredrik said:

Setting them to semi-pro would cripple them too. Salaries would be a huge problem. 

I don't play FM17 but in the older version I typically play in lower leagues or 'other nations' after editing nation rules. My experience is the total opposite to this thread. I find that money is always tight. I set clubs to semi-pro though because it keeps players at their clubs(until the re-negotiate their contracts to non-contract). 

I will investigate this further. 

There is no difference to expenditure in semi pro or amateur clubs - or i cant see it. Only difference is player wages.

Im testing right now and i will know better.

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 I think the main problem in the game is that amateur clubs have no income, while in reality they have members fee, which covers the season budget together with sponsoring.

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3 minutes ago, KUBI said:

 I think the main problem in the game is that amateur clubs have no income, while in reality they have members fee, which covers the season budget together with sponsoring.

Amateur clubs have income - sponsors.

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What if you keep the income blank and let the game decide for itself @krlenjushka? In my test clubs with 700 attendance did not have any grants or investments as income, a club with 2000 attendance received millions at the end of the season/start of the new season. This would result in them going pro in 4/5 years while they were still in 4th tier. Which led to high wages and them collapsing all together again if they didn't climb up the football pyramid.

@KUBI Semi pro club wages are indeed the thing that makes clubs expenditure go up like krlenjshka said. But full amateur clubs just rake in the money like crazy while irl they're not as profitable as it is in-game. Like I said, grants, investments, kits, season tickets (logical) and match day income (again logical) are the main sources of income everything but the 2 last ones can get out of hand.

Plus the other problem is that the Semi-Pro and Amateur clubs are pretty much black and white in the game. Often semi-pro clubs just have a few semi-pro contracts and the rest receive amateur contracts or amateur contracts with no fixed income but secondary income and they get money whenever they play a game (like non-contract option). In the game amateur contracts give zero money all across the board.

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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3 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

What if you keep the income blank and let the game decide for itself @krlenjushka? In my test clubs with 700 attendance did not have any grants or investments as income, a club with 2000 attendance received millions at the end of the season/start of the new season. This would result in them going pro in 4/5 years while they were still in 4th tier. Which led to high wages and them collapsing all together again if they didn't climb up the football pyramid.

@KUBI Semi pro club wages are indeed the thing that makes clubs expenditure go up. But full amateur clubs just rake in the money like crazy while irl they're not as profitable as it is in-game.

Plus the other problem is that the Semi-Pro and Amateur clubs are pretty much black and white in the game. Often semi-pro clubs just have a few semi-pro contracts and the rest receive amateur contracts or amateur contracts with no fixed income but secondary income and they get money whenever they play a game (like non-contract option). In the game amateur contracts give zero money all across the board.

I finished my first test. Great results so far. I added tv revenue money to clubs at my level 0 (with limited sponsor income) and everything is great.

After 5 seasons clubs have similar balance like when i started this save. Also balance and profit graphs are very good - almost straight line :)

Semi-pro clubs in my level 4 and 5 have only 5-10 players at part-time contracts. So this shouldnt be issue here. Also small clubs recieve "fundraising" and "other" income - it seems this happens when club balance is near zero so game decide to help.

I have small problems with clubs in level 2 and 3 but i will fix that soon.

My conclusion- sponsor income is unnecessary here or can be added in small amount like i did with "youth team" income.

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22 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

I finished my first test. Great results so far. I added tv revenue money to clubs at my level 0 (with limited sponsor income) and everything is great.

After 5 seasons clubs have similar balance like when i started this save. Also balance and profit graphs are very good - almost straight line :)

Semi-pro clubs in my level 4 and 5 have only 5-10 players at part-time contracts. So this shouldnt be issue here. Also small clubs recieve "fundraising" and "other" income - it seems this happens when club balance is near zero so game decide to help.

I have small problems with clubs in level 2 and 3 but i will fix that soon.

My conclusion- sponsor income is unnecessary here or can be added in small amount like i did with "youth team" income.

Nice.

But still, can you test multiple club attendances with different amounts with no income selected in editor in correlation with club grants/investments? 

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2 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Nice.

But still, can you test multiple club attendances with different amounts with no income selected in editor in correlation with club grants/investments? 

Maybe when i finish this.

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8 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Maybe when i finish this.

Ok, otherwise I'll test it tonight and post results. I have 20 clubs so I'll group them in pairs. with 200 attendance difference between clubs.

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I have tested it and here are the results:

Attendance of 1500 in editor is the limit:
1400 attendance means zero grants and zero investments
1600 attendance means 2.7 million grants and 900.000 investment income

This is only for amateur and semi-pro clubs. pro clubs with same attendance get around 4.000 grants and zero investments.

 

I also found out that the number of season tickets are the same everywhere and entirely dependant on attendance and reputation. more rep means a higher percentage of attendance that has a season ticket and always come, but this also means less gate receipts. More supporters/attendance means ofc more volume of fans so you notice that in the turnout of a match, and thus finances (gate receipts, match day income, merchandising and corporate facilities income) increase.

The difference in finance is the following:
200 fans -> 190.000 income -> sponsorship was ~84.000 -> so 106.000 income
1200 fans -> 308.000 income -> sponsorship was ~84.000 -> so 224.000 income (increase of 111%)

1000 fans -> 268.000 income -> sponsorship was ~84.000 -> so 184.000 income
2000 fans -> 458.000 income -> sponsorship was ~84.000 -> so 374.000 income (increase of 103%)

So double the attendance means roughly double the income.

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8 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Plus the other problem is that the Semi-Pro and Amateur clubs are pretty much black and white in the game. Often semi-pro clubs just have a few semi-pro contracts and the rest receive amateur contracts or amateur contracts with no fixed income but secondary income and they get money whenever they play a game (like non-contract option). In the game amateur contracts give zero money all across the board.

IMO, you should set Dutch 3rd and 4th level clubs to semi-pro in game regardless of what they call themselves IRL. I find it hard to believe that no players IRL receive anything. 

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2 hours ago, Fredrik said:

IMO, you should set Dutch 3rd and 4th level clubs to semi-pro in game regardless of what they call themselves IRL. I find it hard to believe that no players IRL receive anything. 

I just limited all income options-no need for that at all. In my test all clubs recieve enough money-if they are "short" game gives money using "other income" and "fundraising" options in game.

So my conclusion so far is this: for poor systems like my own in Serbia- no sponsor income is needed. Only TV revenue for levels 1-2 (maybe some small amount in 3rd) and thats it.

TBH i dont care where money comes from-or what news i get in game-only important thing is to make game close to reality AMAP.

 

Only "bug" is this- i have "hot prospect" players with 39€ p/m. Backup players are with amateur contracts but hot prospects are paid.

Any idea why?

 

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1 hour ago, krlenjushka said:

Only "bug" is this- i have "hot prospect" players with 39€ p/m. Backup players are with amateur contracts but hot prospects are paid.

Any idea why?

 

So the hot prospects are on semi-pro contracts? Or non-contract?

In that case shouldn't you set "Contract types" for the division? You can decide what kind of contract(pro, semi-pro, amateur) for "key player", "hot prospect" and everything in between. 

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16 minutes ago, Fredrik said:

So the hot prospects are on semi-pro contracts? Or non-contract?

In that case shouldn't you set "Contract types" for the division? You can decide what kind of contract(pro, semi-pro, amateur) for "key player", "hot prospect" and everything in between. 

Great  - i just realised i have mistake there- all contract types are set but that is empty- somehow i made mistake and missed that. Thanks :thup:

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4 hours ago, Fredrik said:

IMO, you should set Dutch 3rd and 4th level clubs to semi-pro in game regardless of what they call themselves IRL. I find it hard to believe that no players IRL receive anything. 

Well yeah maybe I should but a lot of Tweede and Derde Divisie clubs are complaining about the number of semi contracts so I tend to keep them amateur for now.

But my main goal of the post was the massive amount of grants and investments amateur and semi pro clubs are getting whenever they reach 1500 attendances. Some Dutch amateur/semi pro clubs reach that number (IJsselmeervogels, Spakenburg, Quick Boys for example). I dare to say that they don't receive more than 3 million per year. 

The game probably pushes the clubs into becoming a pro club after reaching a decent amount of fans. 

But @krlenjushka, if i set grants manually in the editor then it won't become 2.5 million in-game? And what about investments?

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1 hour ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Well yeah maybe I should but a lot of Tweede and Derde Divisie clubs are complaining about the number of semi contracts so I tend to keep them amateur for now.

But my main goal of the post was the massive amount of grants and investments amateur and semi pro clubs are getting whenever they reach 1500 attendances. Some Dutch amateur/semi pro clubs reach that number (IJsselmeervogels, Spakenburg, Quick Boys for example). I dare to say that they don't receive more than 3 million per year. 

The game probably pushes the clubs into becoming a pro club after reaching a decent amount of fans. 

But @krlenjushka, if i set grants manually in the editor then it won't become 2.5 million in-game? And what about investments?

i limited grants to 100€ for all clubs in game. also i limited sponsor income - 3000€ for period of 30 years= 100€ p/year for each sponsor option.

All money i need i will add through tv revenue- for levels 1-3. for levels 4 and 5 game take care about that with "other" and "fundraising" options.

Serbian clubs should stay with low balance - barely enough to get through season. Because its real life situation.

I dont like this "fairytale" scenario :D

 

 

1 hour ago, Fredrik said:

So the hot prospects are on semi-pro contracts? Or non-contract?

In that case shouldn't you set "Contract types" for the division? You can decide what kind of contract(pro, semi-pro, amateur) for "key player", "hot prospect" and everything in between. 


Unfortunately - this doesnt work. When i add part-time for key player (all other fields are empty and all other squad statuses can have only non-contract), hot prospect automaticaly have youth contracts in game. I dont know is this a bug or default for semi-pro status.

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Yes youth contracts are another problem. Youth players don't receive money at all and ingame even amateur and semi pro clubs give money to youth players.

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5 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Yes youth contracts are another problem. Youth players don't receive money at all and ingame even amateur and semi pro clubs give money to youth players.

I tried to set various combinations and it seems this option is bugged.

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Just now, krlenjushka said:

I tried to set various combinations and it seems this option is bugged.

Yes I've also tried to change settings but nothing worked.

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Just now, Slabbekoorn said:

Yes I've also tried to change settings but nothing worked.

My clubs are semi-pro. If i set part time contracts for key player - i can give part time contracts to backup,rotation and first team player even settings are amateur for that.

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Also i often can offer 3 year part contract for u-19 players and only 1 year contract for seniors.

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16 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Also i often can offer 3 year part contract for u-19 players and only 1 year contract for seniors.

 

is the same in portugal

 

i am guessing this is standard in all semi-pro clubs, no matter the country

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17 minutes ago, TH3 K1LL3R said:

 

is the same in portugal

 

i am guessing this is standard in all semi-pro clubs, no matter the country

Strange-or i dont understand something here. Also its very difficult to set everything about contracts for lower leagues

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20 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Strange-or i dont understand something here. Also its very difficult to set everything about contracts for lower leagues

is very reallist contracts this way, at least for seniors, its only 1 year contract

 

at last chance (april or may when the clubs know that wont be relegated) is when the contracts are renewel

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4 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

My clubs are semi-pro. If i set part time contracts for key player - i can give part time contracts to backup,rotation and first team player even settings are amateur for that.

Yes I know, I've been adjusting those settings to my liking for a long time. You can't give a specific squad role a certain contract but you can open up an extra contract type option that goes for every squad role while negotiating if you change contract types in each club instead of the league. I've set back-up, hot prospect and youth that they have amateur contracts so that opens up the option to give everyone, aside from their default contract status, an amateur contract.

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