The Official England World Cup Thread

[themadsheep2001]

46 players pulled out of the England squad for the under 20's world cup in Columbia in 2011, that is a big reason why your failing so badly.

Not really. Those 46 players pulling out had little impact on the senior team... if they had played would England have gone through in the last two games?

[milnerpoint]

Nope because Taylor doesn't have a reputation of being a serial bullshitter and any sensible person would know this goes on all the time. I don't think anyone expects Redknapp to name the players, it's more of a "we know what you are, now **** off" type reaction from Steve Gerrard.

So there you go then, you all know its gone on and probably still is going on, so all he has done is said something that people already knew and he is being called out for speaking rubbish, when you all accept its probably true....

[milnerpoint]

Not really. Those 46 players pulling out had little impact on the senior team... if they had played would England have gone through in the last two games?

Well you have missed the point completely.

[themadsheep2001]

Well you have missed the point completely.

Not at all; whats a killer issue? Jack Rodwell missing that tournament, or Jack Rodwell spending crucial development time on the bench?

Under 17's 19's and 21's always ben taken pretty seriously , though the last one needs to be even more so by not removing 21s to play senior friendlies. The under 20's has been less so up until this year when we entered the Toulon tournament for the first time in 20 years. Didn't do too badly, and played some good stuff.

[milnerpoint]

The point is, these guys dont get any real experience at that level in a tournament enviroment, especially playing time. Tell me, using Luke Shaw as an example. What would be of more use to a guy that age, him going to a youth tournament and playing every game, or going to Brazil, as a back up, with very little playing time, training in a situation that is set up with him not in mind to start the next game? Do you think Spain or Brazil deal with 46 players pulling out of a youth tournament? Is he so much better than Cole that it ment it was better to take him, and barely use him, than it was to let him develop with the youth side for a bit longer, and take Cole as a needed back up option?

[themadsheep2001]

The point is, these guys dont get any real experience at that level in a tournament enviroment, especially playing time. Tell me, using Luke Shaw as an example. What would be of more use to a guy that age, him going to a youth tournament and playing every game, or going to Brazil, as a back up, with very little playing time, training in a situation that is set up with him not in mind to start the next game? Do you think Spain or Brazil deal with 46 players pulling out of a youth tournament? Is he so much better than Cole that it ment it was better to take him, and barely use him, than it was to let him develop with the youth side for a bit longer, and take Cole as a needed back up option?

Luke Shaw has been playing under 16, 17 and 21s. he's also been playing week in and week out at a tough level (premier league), which is vital for his overall development. Like I said already 3 of those ages groups are taken very seriously, and we've started taking the 4th (under 20's) more seriously than we did back then.

When I say Jack Rodwell on the bench, I'm talking about spending 2 years making 16 appearances for City. That's far worse than pull out of the under 20's

[milnerpoint]

The FA may be, but that doesnt mean the players are. Again 46 of them pulling out of the chance to represent their country at a younger level. That really doesnt happen for anyone else. Until that attitude is changed, by the players, and the clubs that own them, then England will always struggle. I fully agree on the Rodwell thing, again its another of the issues with the Premier League. He was always signed to purely meet the home grown players thing, which is another draw back.

With Shaw, of course he has been playing at a good level, but id still argue that releasing players to play these tournaments is very important and players actually wanting to go is equally as important.

[themadsheep2001]

The FA may be, but that doesnt mean the players are. Again 46 of them pulling out of the chance to represent their country at a younger level. That really doesnt happen for anyone else. Until that attitude is changed, by the players, and the clubs that own them, then England will always struggle. I fully agree on the Rodwell thing, again its another of the issues with the Premier League. He was always signed to purely meet the home grown players thing, which is another draw back.

With Shaw, of course he has been playing at a good level, but id still argue that releasing players to play these tournaments is very important and players actually wanting to go is equally as important.

The players definitely are. I watched the entire tournament, and got access to unbroadcasted player footage ( was working on it). again that was 3 years go, so it's not even relevant to today, or England struggling really. Tournament experience is certinaly important, but lack of developmental playing time. That kills careers. Jack Rodwell should be being looking at to fill the DMC void ( he might well have gone to the World Cup), he was that talented, now we wonder if he will be a half decent player at all.

[milnerpoint]

The players definitely are. I watched the entire tournament, and got access to unbroadcasted player footage ( was working on it). again that was 3 years go, so it's not even relevant to today, or England struggling really. Tournament experience is certinaly important, but lack of developmental playing time. That kills careers. Jack Rodwell should be being looking at to fill the DMC void ( he might well have gone to the World Cup), he was that talented, now we wonder if he will be a half decent player at all.

Well if we look at who is in the England squad now, who could have played, you tell me which players actually went.

Wilshire

Jones

Smalling (maybe i could have his age wrong in my head)

Sterling

Barkley

Ox

Walcott (ok missed the squad with injury, could have gone to the under 20's WC

Welbeck

Sturridge (again a maybe)

Lack of games for clubs is certainly a big issue, but even those who did get proper development time, Rooney, Johnson, Baines, Gerrard, Lampard, the list goes on. None of these guys have done it at a top international tournament, did any of them go and play world cups or euro championships as kids for the England youth sides?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I read an interview with Stuart Pearce and I think he makes a great point. The article is here for those who haven't seen it:http://talksport.com/football/other-countries-must-look-england-and-laugh-stuart-pearces-damning-verdict-after-uruguay

Obviously this isn't the answer to all of England's problems, there are MANY MANY other issues that have lead us here (standards of youth development, number of foreign players etc) but surely it must be something that can help the players deal with these tournament situations?

“The worst thing you can say to me is, ‘in two years’ time this team will be decent’. It won't be unless you put the process in place that all of these players go to the Under-21 Championship next summer. So [Raheem] Sterling goes, so [Jack] Wilshere goes and [Phil] Jones goes - all those that are Under-21 and available."

So Sterling, Wilshere and Jones have gone to a World Cup, they then play full seasons with their clubs, then go away next summer for the U21s, play another full season with their clubs and then roll up for the Euros, remembering that also they are playing all the fuill English internationals as well along the way. Good way of killing them Pearce such a moron.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Well here's another saying it, should we now hound Graham Taylor to name each one?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27975727

"When I was England manager, our last game was against San Marino and we had already failed to qualify for the World Cup. The players who came with me... I will always respect them."

Incorrect, England still had a chance of qualifying.

[johnhughthom]

Incorrect' date=' England still had a chance of qualifying.[/quote']

I thought that when I read it too, but didn't it need an unlikely set of results? Long time ago now, can't remember the exact situation.

[milnerpoint]

So Sterling' date=' Wilshere and Jones have gone to a World Cup, they then play full seasons with their clubs, then go away next summer for the U21s, play another full season with their clubs and then roll up for the Euros, remembering that also they are playing all the fuill English internationals as well along the way. Good way of killing them Pearce such a moron.[/quote']

Its called looking after young players, you clearly dont play them for two full seasons with no break, even if that means the club side maybe cannot pick them for a couple of games. Spain took guys like Isco and Thiago to the last under 21 Euro's, didnt seem to harm them too much, Thiago would have been at this world cup had he not been injured.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I thought that when I read it too, but didn't it need an unlikely set of results? Long time ago now, can't remember the exact situation.

England needed to beat San Marino by 7 goals (finished 7-1) and Poland to beat Holland (finished 1-1).

[themadsheep2001]

Well if we look at who is in the England squad now, who could have played, you tell me which players actually went.

Wilshire

Jones

Smalling (maybe i could have his age wrong in my head)

Sterling

Barkley

Ox

Walcott (ok missed the squad with injury, could have gone to the under 20's WC

Welbeck

Sturridge (again a maybe)

Lack of games for clubs is certainly a big issue, but even those who did get proper development time, Rooney, Johnson, Baines, Gerrard, Lampard, the list goes on. None of these guys have done it at a top international tournament, did any of them go and play world cups or euro championships as kids for the England youth sides?

Virtually all of them were too old to go to this years Toulon tournament

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Its called looking after young players, you clearly dont play them for two full seasons with no break, even if that means the club side maybe cannot pick them for a couple of games. Spain took guys like Isco and Thiago to the last under 21 Euro's, didnt seem to harm them too much, Thiago would have been at this world cup had he not been injured.

If the clubs have to rest these players for keys games and drop points, why should they bother investing in youth? Basically the national set up has to make a choice, once players have made the step up to the national team that's it in terms of U21 play. What exactly is Wilshere going to learn at a U21 tournament now after appearing in a World Cup and playing regular football at CL level?

[milnerpoint]

Virtually all of them were too old to go to this years Toulon tournament

Sorry, i ment the 2011 under 20's WC.

[milnerpoint]

If the clubs have to rest these players for keys games and drop points' date=' why should they bother investing in youth? Basically the national set up has to make a choice, once players have made the step up to the national team that's it in terms of U21 play. What exactly is Wilshere going to learn at a U21 tournament now after appearing in a World Cup and playing regular football at CL level?[/quote']

Very true. They need to look at why these kids are being fast tracked into the senior team when they are not needed. Are you telling me Shaw is that much better than Cole that it made sense to stop Shaw from playing with the youth team, to make him sit on the bench for a few weeks? Would it not have done Shaw more good to go away and play a full tournament and get his chance in the next Euro's? Footballing wise, will Shaw have gained a lot from this summer?

Again, other nations manage this, one of Englands biggest problems is not looking after their young players well enough, and not helping them develop enough, before they are thrust into the win at all costs situations.

[Baptista_8]

I think we should stop the England discussion and just enjoy the rest of the World Cup. What's the point, seriously?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I agree about that, Shaw ahead of Gibbs even more baffling for me.

[themadsheep2001]

Sorry, i ment the 2011 under 20's WC.

You mean the 2011 Under 21 Euros?

Wilshere, Jones, Smalling, Henderson, Welbeck, Sturridge

Walker and Cleverley too (not in current England squad)

[milnerpoint]

I agree about that' date=' Shaw ahead of Gibbs even more baffling for me.[/quote']

Aye exactly, even more baffling that he was taken over Gibbs, especially since everyone knew Baines was going to be the first choice at this WC. Of course we all know Shaw should go onto be a top top left back, but right now he needs development, you dont get that by not playing for a few weeks at a WC. It was a similar situation to Walcott a few years back, a baffling decision to take him, and not play him at all. England need to look at these kinda things, give the younger guys a bit more time before they are thrust into the top team, let them develop their international football with the younger sides, only promote them when they are really needed.

[themadsheep2001]

Aye exactly, even more baffling that he was taken over Gibbs, especially since everyone knew Baines was going to be the first choice at this WC. Of course we all know Shaw should go onto be a top top left back, but right now he needs development, you dont get that by not playing for a few weeks at a WC. It was a similar situation to Walcott a few years back, a baffling decision to take him, and not play him at all. England need to look at these kinda things, give the younger guys a bit more time before they are thrust into the top team, let them develop their international football with the younger sides, only promote them when they are really needed.

I'd say going to the world cup, was better than sitting at home.

[themadsheep2001]

I think we should stop the England discussion and just enjoy the rest of the World Cup. What's the point, seriously?

I will be able to properly once we leave Brazil.

[milnerpoint]

You mean the 2011 Under 21 Euros?

Wilshere, Jones, Smalling, Henderson, Welbeck, Sturridge

Walker and Cleverley too (not in current England squad)

No i ment this,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2019956/Under-strength-England-miss-trick-Under-20-World-Cup.html

[OWLSFAN]

U20's really isn't a thing. Seem to remember from the time that it's always Africans and South Americans that win or do well in it because it's not an age category that not just England but any of Europe takes seriously.

[themadsheep2001]

No i ment this,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2019956/Under-strength-England-miss-trick-Under-20-World-Cup.html

Because they were in the Under 21 squad already and had just been in a summer tournament, getting tournament experience? and most would have actually been too old. Only Jones was 19 then, Welbeck and Henderson were 20, and might have gone, not sure where the cut off was.

[CaptainPlanet]

Top quality window licking from Milner and Coultard last few pages. Makes the rest of the thread look sensible.

[Razzler]

Last game innit. Fairwell send off etc

May well be a last game for Gerrard too

Are you thinking what I'm thinking ... Lamps/Gerrard centre mid for old times sake

[Razzler]

I think we should stop the England discussion and just enjoy the rest of the World Cup. What's the point, seriously?

You can avoid the thread, you know

[skybluedave]

Yup. I've avoided the Anyone But England thread since like page 3. I value my brain cells

[paperclips]

Who would you play Vs Costa Rica this week?

I would personally go for;

Hart

Johnson-Cahill-Smalling-Shaw

Lampard-Henderson-Barkley

Lallana/Sterling- Lambert - Milner

[themadsheep2001]

Oliver Kay ‏@OliverKayTimes · 2m

Roy Hodgson confirms #ENG line-up v #CRC tmrw: Foster; Jones, Cahill, Smalling, Shaw; Milner, Lampard, Wilshere; Barkley, Lallana; Sturridge

so we wait till we're out to play 4-3-3. good one.

[skybluedave]

Not Smalling

[CaptainPlanet]

Poor Lambert!

[Hom3r]

Happy with the formation but would have liked to have seen Sterling get a full game and Henderson rather than Lampard in a game where he can actually get forward.

[Razzler]

I'd play Forster over Foster tbh

[H.O.V.I]

Swap Sterling for Milner and i like it.

[deerokus]

Don't really get why he's playing Foster ahead of Forster - surely if the idea is to give younger players experience of World Cup football you don't go with someone who is already 31?

Forster so under-rated in England .

[skybluedave]

Foster is Woy's buddy though

[themadsheep2001]

Happy with the formation but would have liked to have seen Sterling get a full game and Henderson rather than Lampard in a game where he can actually get forward.

Aye. Lambert should have started as well, if we're getting everyone time.

[Confused Clarity]

Surely Forster has the potential to play in a World Cup again in 2014, while Foster won't & so therefore, that's why he's giving it to Foster?

[brett.spurs]

Oliver Kay ‏@OliverKayTimes · 2m

Roy Hodgson confirms #ENG line-up v #CRC tmrw: Foster; Jones, Cahill, Smalling, Shaw; Milner, Lampard, Wilshere; Barkley, Lallana; Sturridge

so we wait till we're out to play 4-3-3. good one.

Christmas tree imo

As for Harry, I reckon he's telling the truth but probably exaggerating. My money's on Aaron Lennon being one of the players, he's never been fussed about playing for England or improving as a player.

[skybluedave]

Maybe a back 3 with Milner and Shaw as wing backs

[SpillBlood]

Oliver Kay ‏@OliverKayTimes · 2m

Roy Hodgson confirms #ENG line-up v #CRC tmrw: Foster; Jones, Cahill, Smalling, Shaw; Milner, Lampard, Wilshere; Barkley, Lallana; Sturridge

so we wait till we're out to play 4-3-3. good one.

Should be Lambert over Sturridge .

[ringwoodrob]

I'd have been happier also if he picked Forster he's played big games but a game here would have furthered his development,surprised Wayne isn't No9,i'm happy he's giving the younger ones a start,better balance in midfield probably,hope they do well we still might have to score 3 to win the game but we'll have to wait and see:)

[ReggaeBwoy]

Should be Lambert over Sturridge .

I thought he would do that as well considering he has not started a game yet. I think Sturridge wants more goals.

[skybluedave]

Hang on. Forster should start over Foster coz he's younger but Lambert should also start over Sturridge....

[av3ry]

Did Oxlade-Chamberlain and Phil Jones not get pulled out of the last Under 21 international tournament to play a useless friendly against Brazil. Problem with the youngsters is they are not ready for these international tournaments as they pull out of youth team duty, or the manager pulls them out to "protect" them like Wenger did to Jack Wilshere that time.

How many of the Germany U21 side that demolished us in 2009 are in their senior side now and look how well they're doing.

[paperclips]

B.Foster is awful and so is P.Jones especially at Rb.