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Cleon

The School of the Defensive Arts

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Regista

SsTqmYZ.png

He is responsible for driving forward from deep with the ball and being the creativeness of the side from a deep area. I doubt he’ll get many goals or assists as he’ll be the starter of moves rather than someone who will be seen in and around the box finishing them off. The idea behind using a Regista instead of a defensive midfielder or anchor is that I already expect to be compact and hard to break down. So I don’t feel I need to be over cautious, which means by using a Regista I’ll push forward and he will be hopefully higher up to win the ball and better placed compared to lets say a defensive midfielder. This should hopefully ease some of the pressure that people associate with using a defensive strategy.

Hi Cleon

I note "Shoot Less Often" as a PI here... I've skim read the thread and I can't see whether there's been any explanation of why you're using this PI. You have explained the PI's on the CD's (which makes perfect sense), but not this one and as you also state you're trying to keep PI's to a minimum, it would be useful to know why this is here.

Is it your "default" PI for this role?

Is it something you noticed during pre-season that this PI corrected?

Is it to counteract a PPM, hence possibly not necessary with other players?

Thanks in advance & apologies if you've already answered this but I've not spotted it.

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Hi Cleon

I note "Shoot Less Often" as a PI here... I've skim read the thread and I can't see whether there's been any explanation of why you're using this PI. You have explained the PI's on the CD's (which makes perfect sense), but not this one and as you also state you're trying to keep PI's to a minimum, it would be useful to know why this is here.

Is it your "default" PI for this role?

Is it something you noticed during pre-season that this PI corrected?

Is it to counteract a PPM, hence possibly not necessary with other players?

Thanks in advance & apologies if you've already answered this but I've not spotted it.

Apart from the Treq he is the most creative role in my side and I'd rather him pass than shoot. If he shoots then that means he will bypass the runners from midfield, the treq and the strikers which imo is a waste :)

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Cleon, I've read recently that you had a tactic where your wing backs scored a lot of goals. Is it this one?

No I haven't posted about that one, it was just on Twitter :)

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No I haven't posted about that one, it was just on Twitter :)

I had a brief period in a Southampton save where my wing backs scored a lot of goals (something like 12 between them in 10 games), but they then dried up. The tactic failed in the end and I relegated it to the scrap heap. I want to try and replicate something of that again, though, and I was thinking of using 3 at the back to try and get those CWBs a bit further up the pitch with a bit less defensive responsibility. We'll see, though.

BTW: I mentioned I'd started a game with this formation before, well I've not had a chance to play any real games yet. Got through pre-season, but haven't had a chance since. The formation was initially similar to yours, although now it's even closer as I altered the attacking mid to a Treq from an AP. It seemed to create more space (plus I don't have a back up to play AP, but I do have someone who could do Treq), but that was only in friendlies. I'm most worried about conceding through the space between FBs and Cbs, though. It's something I've always struggled with and can never seem to get right.

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Cleon that is a great thread and we can learn from it a lot. My only problem is, i don't get any feet on the ground at this game. I'm not able to get clean sheets nevermind which tactic i play. If i play with a controll strategy, I'll get passes into the space behind my defensive line and if I play a narrow counterstrategy than the opponents team run down the flanks and i'm not able to stop them. I really would like to throw this game out of my window.

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Just been looking at an interesting stat. I'm about 5 games out of the close of the season (first) and I have 4 of the top 5 distance covered per 90 minutes. There are two players in there that really surprise me. Eriksen and Lamela. Eriksen plays as TQ and Lamela players either DLF or TQ.

Walker (RB) covers on averagee 13.5km, Coentrao covers 13.3 and Eriksen comes in at an impressive 13.1

Had no idea TQ's were that mbile AND even compared to players that run the full length of the pitch.

Something to bear in mind..... if only about their stamina :)

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Just been looking at an interesting stat. I'm about 5 games out of the close of the season (first) and I have 4 of the top 5 distance covered per 90 minutes. There are two players in there that really surprise me. Eriksen and Lamela. Eriksen plays as TQ and Lamela players either DLF or TQ.

Walker (RB) covers on averagee 13.5km, Coentrao covers 13.3 and Eriksen comes in at an impressive 13.1

Had no idea TQ's were that mbile AND even compared to players that run the full length of the pitch.

Something to bear in mind..... if only about their stamina :)

In my Denmark save I use Eriksen as T or AM, and I use a DLF(A) in front of him. Both of those players have the most distance covered for me on several occasions. :)

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Something I would be interested in, is how the dynamics of the tactic would change if you changed philosophy, to Rigid, or even more dramatically to Balanced. You have a lot of specialist roles, so balanced may not be realistic, could become a bit of a mess without adjusting the roles possibly. The philosophy part of the game is something I understand a little, but not fully how it works out in real time. I have pretty much always used balanced, but rigid and very rigid interest me a lot, as I like managers that use that kind of philosophy where each player has specific role in the side, players playing to their strengths.

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Eriksen is also my joint 2nd highest goalscorer.....

He has fantastic OTB stats, so I think it is mainly down to that and his tecniique. He has only 9 as his finishing.........

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Something I would be interested in, is how the dynamics of the tactic would change if you changed philosophy, to Rigid, or even more dramatically to Balanced. You have a lot of specialist roles, so balanced may not be realistic, could become a bit of a mess without adjusting the roles possibly. The philosophy part of the game is something I understand a little, but not fully how it works out in real time. I have pretty much always used balanced, but rigid and very rigid interest me a lot, as I like managers that use that kind of philosophy where each player has specific role in the side, players playing to their strengths.

The more rigid = the more players will stick to your specific instructions and their more specific assignments. If he'd changed this to Balanced, the players he wants to focus on defending and keeping shape might deviate from those instructions and try to get involved in attacking moves, which would compromise the shape and approach that he is trying to create.

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Cleon has said he tried Fluid and Very Fluid, and found that players made runs a lot more than he'd like, and that the shape suffered as a result. Rigid and Balanced... I don't know, maybe the problems would be the same. It comes down to what he's trying to achieve here.

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Cleon has said he tried Fluid and Very Fluid, and found that players made runs a lot more than he'd like, and that the shape suffered as a result. Rigid and Balanced... I don't know, maybe the problems would be the same. It comes down to what he's trying to achieve here.

Yeah, I understand that Cleon would have had a clear plan in mind before even starting to create it. I do reasonably well at this game with the help of Cleon and others obviously, I still struggle with getting philosophy and how it works in real time, how it affects different roles and so on. I generally stick to the wwfans guide and choose the philosophy based on how many specialist roles I have in the team. I'm not convinced this is the best way to go about things though.

I guess it's not all that relevant to this thread, so my apologies.

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Yeah, I understand that Cleon would have had a clear plan in mind before even starting to create it. I do reasonably well at this game with the help of Cleon and others obviously, I still struggle with getting philosophy and how it works in real time, how it affects different roles and so on. I generally stick to the wwfans guide and choose the philosophy based on how many specialist roles I have in the team. I'm not convinced this is the best way to go about things though.

I guess it's not all that relevant to this thread, so my apologies.

No, I'm with you - I think it's a fairly sensible approach to be honest - there has to be a link between how you want to play and the roles you give the players... for me, that's what it comes down to. I like being able to set philosophy but it almost should have a default setting given the player roles used, in my opinion!

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No, I'm with you - I think it's a fairly sensible approach to be honest - there has to be a link between how you want to play and the roles you give the players... for me, that's what it comes down to. I like being able to set philosophy but it almost should have a default setting given the player roles used, in my opinion!

The philosophy will further determine their behaviour alongside roles/duties - so it adds a dimension to play that should be considered. If it were any other way then there would certainly be less scope to adapt a tactic as to how you see fit.

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This is a great thread Cleon and has given me a lot to think about in the way I set out my tactics. I usually like to try to set up attractive attacking play but after reading this I am very tempted to try a rigid defensive system. I may try this on my current west ham save as I use a narrow 4-2-3-1 I like the idea of how you use your wingbacks which could work for my formation too I hope. Kutgw!

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Great tactic, might try it next season with my team. Its amazing how little (if any) defensively solid tacts there are in FM14., yet to me its probably the most important aspect. I'd much rather 1-0 games that 3-2 etc.

Finishing is only the ability to hit the target, so things like anticipation, composure, decisions etc all come into play. It is something I will be expanding on though for sure :)

I cant wait to hear you opinions/explanations on this, time and time again in LLM i see my strikers blast shots at the keeper when one-on-one, I've had so many CCCs but i'd say 1 in 5 success rate (at LLM) would be great to know what other attributes to look for and which are more important than others/for what reason etc.

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Finishing is only the ability to hit the target, so things like anticipation, composure, decisions etc all come into play. It is something I will be expanding on though for sure :)

I wrote my previous comment and missed this further back.

Like I mentioned above, Eriksen with finishing of 9 for the premiership is my 2nd highest goal scorer and I think finsihed somewhere near 6/7th in the league. He doesnt play upfront either.

So it really is, at least for him, being in the right position where he can not miss or putting himself with the ball there.

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One of the aspects of this guide that helped me out the most was the analysis of how Cleon approached different opposition formations and teams. I actually wish there was a guide on the SI forums (or anywhere else for that matter) to highlight things like that

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One of the aspects of this guide that helped me out the most was the analysis of how Cleon approached different opposition formations and teams. I actually wish there was a guide on the SI forums (or anywhere else for that matter) to highlight things like that

It's hard to do a guide like that though as it all depends on the shape, players and roles you use. Plus not every formation plays the same way, so its hard to do any kind of guide like that, almost impossible.

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This formation is interesting, for me at least, as it has forced me to look deeper at FM now. I've always used scout and team reports and I've always looked a the opposition squad screen (with my settings) to establish who is likely to be scoring the goals, making the key passes and producing the assists.

As this formation can be exploited downt the flanks it's key to understand what the opposition are going to be doing down them.

If your scout goal report is telling you that in a 4231 (AMLR) most of the assists are coming from the left side passes and you check out their AML and he is not so good at crossing then you can bet that he will be cutting inside. Thus in this case I'd set my DR up with a PI of sit narrower. If the opposition LB doesnt have any assists then it's likely that he doesnt get forwards to often or is not really in a position to produce assits (though look for him to setup assists), therefore I'd probably give my DR low closing down now too.

However if the opposition DL does get forwards I'd probably leave CD at default. (please note that this is all in testing).

I do tend to use Explot Flanks quite a lot with this formation. Given the number of players in the middle the instruction is quite as dictatorial as it perhaps is in other formations. Thus I find it works well against formations that do not have an MLR position filled and especially well against these types of formations that have two MC destroyers.

I don't know if it's this tactic or just me, but I am analysising the opposition so much more. Hopefully if it is this tactic forcing me to do it then I'll be even strong if I move to somethng else at some point.

I hadn't played for a while so I dont know if this is a patch or how my team setup with this tactic but I find I am seeing over and over to many failed corner/penalty box clearances, to many "oh... he didnt mean that" on crosses that result in GK fumbling for corners (read previous comments).

I'm not one to complain but there are to many glaring errors at the moment for me and it's incredibly frustrating.

That said. The intricate play of this formation/tactic when it works is mesmerising.

LAM

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I've not forgot about this and still plan on updating. Just not really had time to update with the sort of in-depth analysis this needs :(. Hopefully next week though :)

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Second season has gotten off to a far better start. Still a little leakier than I'd like but am scoring well, but I can't shake this feeling that there are issues with keepers, corners and crosses. (I'm not one to complain!!)

Not a huge amount of players changing but a few right ones and also some better training and PPM's kicking in now.

Starting to appreciate how a fast crossing WB could set this tactic alight. I have two 'good' WB's in Coentrao and Walker, but neither are fantastic crosses.

There are some decent players out there but I have gotten rid of all of the sub-par players from my squad and sadly that meant most of the english players. I can not afford to bring in foreign talent currently.

Despite doing well, I'm looking at some of the other MC's in the premiership and can'#t help but think if I had a few 17/17 pass/creative players what I could do with them.......

***f'ing token expiry F&*king B8l*ck$***

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I've not forgot about this and still plan on updating. Just not really had time to update with the sort of in-depth analysis this needs :(. Hopefully next week though :)

Waiting for this....

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It's hard to do a guide like that though as it all depends on the shape, players and roles you use. Plus not every formation plays the same way, so its hard to do any kind of guide like that, almost impossible.

Alright fair enough. That seems to be the aspect I have the most trouble with - analysing my formation as well as the oppositions formation and finding gaps and areas of weakness and how to use my formation to exploit those areas of weaknesses. My question is, how does one such as yourself learn these aspects? Watching football? Reading coaching books? Researching on the internet?

I'm using a very similar approach with a 4-5-1 formation with a DM AMR and AML.

2fKFKhM.jpg

I'd like to bring across some point from my games, namely the ones I've lost. This is a game against Cardiff. They were playing a 4-2-3-1 and utilizing the wings alot.

Here's an example of a goal I conceded. This scenario began with Tom Ince (the AML) losing the ball in our half. Cardiff (in red) passed the ball as so

onOjloy.jpg

Tommy Spurr didn't tackle quickly enough and this allowed Philips to send a perfect cross to the far post. (I'd love to know why I can't make crosses like those too but that's for another post)

dbLkkuW.jpg

Now who was in the wrong? The midfield for not trying to win the ball back in the first screen shot? The fullback for not closing down philips fast enough? Or the right back for not being able to head the ball away from the far post effectively enough?

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Started a new game with Oldham on the basis of this thread. I'm sure it has helped me tactically and get my team to play more to how I'd like them to do. I play a 4411 which defensively seems pretty good, players are covering well and shots largely are from a long distance and we are still creating chances at the other end.

I've had some mixed results so far. I've drawn with Spurs in a Friendly and come 9 minutes from knocking Cardiff out of the League Cup who then ended up beating me in extra-time. I'm sure none of this would have happened had I not viewed this thread.

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From what I see Cardiff made a good move there. You are not too far from the answer and I think it is indeed that your midfield didn't close him down good enough. Also the cross was really good considering that you were 5v3 at the back.

I played the 4-1-2-2-1 for a fairly long time and some things I have noticed are: The IFs won't track back very often. Especially not when they are on attack duty. Other weaknesses are that its hard to score if the other teams has a DMC and DCs they will give you no space in the back and your striker can't effectively drop deep(he will run into the DMC).

Question to Cleon: I have always set closing down for playmakers in the midfield and had someone man mark them. The idea is to not let them have the ball and close them down so they can't do anything with it. But after reading your thread I can see that you don't close them down in order to maintain shape and have players defend spaces. So the playmaker will have no space to pass into. I have never thought this way and ask you if there are any situations where you do set OIs and close certain players down or mark them like I do. Do you even set force to weaker foot or anything sometimes?

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This is a fantastic insight into how the defensive side of the game works.

I have never been able to make a defensive tactic work - I lack patience and concede silly goals. I have never spent a lot of time focussing on the opponent, which I gather is a bit of a flaw too - and I also don't know the differences between different roles quite as clearly as you seem to.

Though I won't be directly copying this tactic, I shall certainly be nicking ideas from it and taking the time to see how they work with a view to hopefully improving my teams of the future! I can feel a new save file coming along...

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This is interesting as always. I've always had very low goals conceded in my saves, usually because I play offensively and often ensure I have a very top notch goalkeeper (in the lower leagues particularly).

I'm going through a phase at the moment where I want to play 2 strikers, 2 wingers an AMC and a DMC, but I can't for the life of me think of how to work it out. I fear I would be overrun in the middle of the park!

Anyway, this topic has given me some food for thought, especially regarding central midfield roles, something that I've been struggling with in 14 for whatever reason.

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I used to love this formation on older FMs, but I don't think it works well in this version. I concede from crosses at an alarming rate, despite possessing quality CDs and a league average keeper. No matter what setting I use for my full backs, the opposition's wingers can cross at will.

I just played a match against last place Hull (apologies to Hull supporters). Possession was split 50-50, as were the scoring chance statistics, but Aluko and Elmohamady pinged in 42 crosses! They connected on 6 of those crosses, two of which ended up in my net. One of Aluko's crosses also soared over my keeper and straight into my net for one of those "Really?" goals. And there was one own goal where my keeper redirected an errant cross into the net behind him. Five goals in one half, which felt like the football gods laughing at my defensive philosophy.

nfweg6S.png

I commend anyone who can go 46 matches and concede just 9 goals using a narrow diamond and a regular squad in this year's FM.

The good news is I love the attacking movement in the diamond, and this works especially well when the front three are given extra licence to move into channels and roam from position.

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I would just like to say a big thanks for this thread.

I was until this year not a big tactics man, always used the classic style but now thanks to threads like this I am more tactically aware.

Thanks once again Cleon.

DazS8

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hmm...

I really read alot about tactics in FM and tried a whole lot more in the game but most of them horribly failed and so I usually download my tactics from other users.

My recent favorite is pretty similar to your tactic and I managed to get really good results.

So now and then I want to put my own pieces into the downloaded tactic and adjust to my opponent in a way that seems logic to me.

And nearly every time I completely fail and get smashed. Then I reload and play without adjustments and suddenly win without problems...

Seems the ME has its own football logic, clearly not mine.

:confused:

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Cleon or anybody who can help :)

I've just read this thread and it is exactly the thread I wanted! I love defensive football. However looking at how you have distributed your roles and duties goes against my logic. Obviously I'm seeing it wrong. The way I see it is that the B2B, Central Midfielder (A), Treq and Deep-Lying Forward would all look to play within the same area on the pitch (The AMC spot)? I would have thought it would of been very messy in the attacking phase?

Or do the CM (A) and the B2B run beyond the Treq and DLF?

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Cleon or anybody who can help :)

I've just read this thread and it is exactly the thread I wanted! I love defensive football. However looking at how you have distributed your roles and duties goes against my logic. Obviously I'm seeing it wrong. The way I see it is that the B2B, Central Midfielder (A), Treq and Deep-Lying Forward would all look to play within the same area on the pitch (The AMC spot)? I would have thought it would of been very messy in the attacking phase?

Or do the CM (A) and the B2B run beyond the Treq and DLF?

Why would they all play in the same space? This is a misconception amongst most FM fans. At times they might be in a similar area but they work together and not against. In all the screenshots I've posted does it look like they get in each others way? Only 1 of the players is central anyway and that's the Treq, the others go wide, go beyond the striker/Treq etc.

Not sure why you'd think it would be messy in attack or why you assume they'd all be in the same space as they are all different roles and play in different areas of the pitch......

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Cleon, I have to thank you for this thread. While my attempts at recreating it initially failed, I took the basic premise and went back to the drawing board with my own ideas of play. In the end, I came up with the tactic I posted about in my Arsenal diamond thread. It's working well enough, now, with a CF(S) instead of DLF(S) and a CM(S) instead of my CM(A) or your BBM. Plus, I have a DLP(D) and my WBs are on Support.

Conceded 6 in 10, but 4 of those have been set pieces and the other two were against Southampton...which seems to be my main weak spot atm. Played them twice, once on the first day of the season and once in the league cup. Won 3-2 both times, but I wasn't happy about conceding those 2 goals twice. Seems like I'm struggling with their narrow 4-2-3-1, I think my DLP(D) is being overwhelmed a bit with those 3 playing swarming. What kind of change would you make to counter that? What I would think is either switching the DLP to HB and the CM(S) to a BWM(S). I don't want to lose that playmaker role, though. He may not get many assists, but he starts moves off beautifully.

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@ Cleon.

I had 11 very enjoyable seasons at Ajax in FM13 thanks to your thread last year and the methods and knowledge you shared. And having read through this thread a couple of time and applying a switch as simple as swapping from Standard/Control to Defensive, it has really sparked what had become a frustrating second season for me on my Juve save.

I wondered if it was 2nd season syndrome, whether Gabbiadini and Berardi just werent up to filling Tevez's boots as the lone striker in my formation, whether the whole system needed ripping up and a fresh start required but making that simple switch has not only reinforced what I wanted to do anyway, in terms of playing a low tempo, life draining passing game that I remember from watching Italian football on Channel 4 when I was a teenager, but it's also opened the flood gates scoring wise also!

Who would have thought that playing 'defensive' would have thought that right?

I was constantly camped on the edge of the opposition box, bossing possession week in week out but struggling to kill teams off at times and struggling to get my centre forward firing. But by actually letting the other team out when they have the ball, I was able to exploit more space in behind, without getting away from the brand of football I wanted to achieve.

Thank you once again Sir!

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The Set Up

nDrkUif.png

I went for the defensive strategy as I wanted to show that defensive can actually be attacking, solid and create good football. It was that simple. My reason behind going very rigid was also simple, I wanted players to have less creative freedom and stick to the jobs that I give them via the roles and duties that I’ll touch upon further into this article. If I’d have gone balanced, fluid or very fluid then they’d be playing a lot differently that I planned. I’ll actually show you what I mean by this a lot further into the article though and show you an example of this happening and how the tactic plays differently due to changing the philosophy to fluid. You’ll then understand the behaviour of the roles and what I didn’t want to happen a lot better.

Team Instructions

The instructions I have decided to start off using a base are;

pcp3EEI.png

I should point out that I might drop an instruction or add a new one depending on how a game is going but these are the base that I will use to start most matches with. Any changes I make will be highlighted further in the thread with an explanation to why I might have added or removed a certain instruction.

looking at building a new defensively solid deep 4-2-3-1. Could I use this as my initial base?

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looking at building a new defensively solid deep 4-2-3-1. Could I use this as my initial base?

Completely not the point of the thread if you read the first line...

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Completely not the point of the thread if you read the first line...

Apologies, should have been clearer in what I meant. I understand the point of this thread is a) how Cleon approaches the game, and b) that defensive tactics can be exciting as well. What I was actually wanting to ask is when Cleon (or any other tactical Jedis) approach a new 'defensive' tactic, do they typically use a certain setup as their base to ensure defensive solidity, and then expand on that? i.e. if Cleon was to go about making a defensively solid 4-2-3-1, would his approach be based on the same principles/set up and then move on to individual roles?

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Cleon,

With my USA team in my World Cup game I actually defeated Spain in the final by using a 4-4-2 Box Midfield that was setup similar to this. It was with the very fluid strategy and pretty much no team instructions (except defensive line drop deeper) but this thread inspired me to try it since obviously Spain is a lot better, and of course I've always been a fan of the box midfield. I might post about it later, or start my own thread. I don't know.

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Cleon,

With my USA team in my World Cup game I actually defeated Spain in the final by using a 4-4-2 Box Midfield that was setup similar to this. It was with the very fluid strategy and pretty much no team instructions (except defensive line drop deeper) but this thread inspired me to try it since obviously Spain is a lot better, and of course I've always been a fan of the box midfield. I might post about it later, or start my own thread. I don't know.

Do! :D!!!!!!!!

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Very nice write up as ever.

Its always inspiring (and upsetting!) when you run into people in life who are clearly operating at a higher level than the rest of us plebs!

Essentially you are combining Defensive mentalities (Defensive/Very Rigid) and Defensive team instructions with what is actually quite an attacking formation (2 strikers and an AMC) and also a good number of attacking roles 5, and 3 support roles and only 2 defensive outfield roles.

A sort of interesting contradiction.

The flip side might be Attacking Mentalities and Team Instructions blended with a more defensive formation and roles.

The ME is very versatile accomodating all sorts of play styles.

Food for thought!

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Well, another rage quitter started enjoying the game again. Many thanks, Cleon (and others with similar approaches), for these threads. I finally realized how important is to have a clear idea of what brand of football you want to play, role selection, team selection and adapting to in-game situations. I currently play full match because, for now, it's the only way I'm able spotting my own tactic's flaws or opponent's weaknesses. It's a totally new approach for me and I'm sure that after I gain some experience I'll be able to seize those things playing faster :)

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Well, another rage quitter started enjoying the game again. Many thanks, Cleon (and others with similar approaches), for these threads. I finally realized how important is to have a clear idea of what brand of football you want to play, role selection, team selection and adapting to in-game situations. I currently play full match because, for now, it's the only way I'm able spotting my own tactic's flaws or opponent's weaknesses. It's a totally new approach for me and I'm sure that after I gain some experience I'll be able to seize those things playing faster :)

It's much easier to get something working if you have a general idea of what type of football you want to play. I believe once you sort that out the rest like roles/duties etc all falls into place as you base them around what you are wanting. If you have no idea what type of football you want to play then its a struggle as you don't really have any guidance for the roles you need. That's why I always have an idea of how I want to play before starting a season :)

Glad you gave it another go though and are now having success :)

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while watching Italy vs England I can't help but relate the Italians tactic with this. they are seldom caught out while defending, almost always have defensive covers, tried to retain possession and play short passing but definitely not possession-based, doesn't close down often, chances usually comes from counter attacks and play with Pirlo as a Regista!

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Just a thought, but to me, after doing my own experiments with similar styles of tactics, it seems that Team Mentality tends to affect your team more when you are off the ball and Player Role/Mentality affects what they do on the ball.

Which is why you seem to be able to make tactics like this and some of the others found around the place based around a defensive mentality be very fluid looking and deadly whilst attacking, yet I, as of yet, have had no success making an attacking mentality tactic have success defensively.

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