Winger scoring the same goals

[bloopy]

So I'm sure everyone seen this.

CF gets the ball with a bit of space, draw one (or worse, both) CB, winger runs past FB that is completely oblivious, gets the ball and scores.

I'm getting most goals like that.

How can I stop this?

[RTHerringbone]

You can't stop them all, because it is a viable goalscoring "move" which is seen time and again in real life, as well as FM.

You can, however, reduce them and all goals conceded with the right combinations.

However, in order to help, we'd need to know how you are currently set up, so Formation, Roles, Duties, Mentaility, Fluidity and any TIs or PIs.

[bieritarier]

I'm having the exact same problem and it is driving me insane. After another stellar preseason (comfortable wins against a bunch of big clubs (Juventus, Boca, PSG) and an unlucky draw against arsenal (2-2 with CCs 8-2 and HC 11-2 in my favor) first match super cup against dortmund and all they do is pass the ball around and play through ball after through ball. It does not matter what I do play offensive full backs - no dice (somewhat expected), play defensive full backs, even worse. Play control no luck, play counter even worse.

To be fair though the problem is not the defense, it's the midfield. my players flat out refuse to put any pressure on Dortmunds midfielder. Specific man marking does not work at all (the guy I identified as their playmaker was specifically marked and tight marked but still easily orchestrated their offense.

Anyway, this continues on in my box where they sometimes play 4-5 passes unchallenged until they find the open man. what is really almost making me cry is that I can already identify the guy that is about to score when the ball crosses the half way line in most occasions. They just so easily get behind my defense with through balls it's ridiculous. My worst player on the pitch is probably still better than 10 of their guys.

so Here is how I line up in short

SK(d) - Neuer (Ter Stegen)

DR - FB(s) - Eronna (de Sciglio, Lahm) - (close down less)

DCR - CD(d) - Mangala (usually Boateng or Badstuber, but these guys both need a rest)

DCL - CD(d) - Alvarez Balanta (Mangala)

DL - WB(s) - Alaba (Shaw) - (Get further forward, close down less)

MR - WM(A) - Madzevski (regen) (usually Müller or Shaqiri) - (shoot less often, cross less often, roam from position)

MCR - B2B(s) - Sonnenberger(regen) (usually Martinez, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Hojberg or Scholl) - (close down more)

MCL - DLP(d) - Hojberg (usually Kroos , Schweinsteiger or Martinez)

ML - WM(s) - Shaqiri (Draxler) - (Cut inside with ball, shoot more often, cross less often, roam from position)

AMC - AP(A) - Trinidate de Vilhena (usually Götze, Thiago or Scholl) - (run wide with ball)

FC - CF(s) - Lewandowski (Volland)

[RTHerringbone]

@bieritarier - What Mentality, Fluidity and Team Instructions do you use?

[bieritarier]

control, fluid

play out of defense, play wider, much higher tempo.

Mind you I've also gone narrower, played more direct and lowered tempo. It all looks exactly the same...

[RTHerringbone]

If you use Control, what benefits do you think Play Out Of Defence, Play Wider and Much Higher Tempo have?

By default, your defenders are playing short, you are wide and have a fairly high tempo.

Have you used Hassle Opponents? I was very "anti" it early on, but have realised that it is very effective.

I'm currently using it in a bog standard 4-1-2-2-1 formation, with the same Mentality and Fluidity as you.

Like you, I have instructed the full backs to Close Down Less (this will override the Closing Down that the TI of Hassle Opponents applies for these players).

I use two DC Cover players, who are asked to Hold Position and Mark Tighter, and whilst we do concede the type of goals mentioned in the OP, they are few and far between.

Aside from the use of Hassle and those back four settings, the other key factor *may* be the use of a DM - where I have an Anchor.

[bieritarier]

well, I have a highly technical team with only my centre backs (and the odd striker) having passing < 15, the majority of guys in in the 17-19 range. Basically I find that whenever i lower the tempo my players just dwell on the ball too often and the opponent closes out, wins the ball and that'S that. I'll try without play out of defense.

Another thing that bugs me is how brutally well organized Dortmund in particular, but many other teams as well are.

When they play 4-2-3-1 (Dortmund does, this is what usually happens (most obvious on goal kicks):

their striker and AMC stand pretty close to my centre defenders, both of them in between the 2.

their AMR and AML stand about 5 yards away from my full backs, covering the space between my full backs and centre backs as well as the passing options to ma centre mids (who are only about 5 yards away from the opp centre mids)

their DL/DR mark my wide midfielders. so in general what happens is my full back receives the ball, is closed down and has no passing option except back to the keeper (or occasionally a central defender dropping deep) if the ball goes to the DC he usually stand there and waits until the striker or AMC takes the ball away from him, smashes it into the guy closing down or punts it into the stands.

What annoys me about this is that I have never ever been able to even remotely replicate this marking/closing down behavior. Usually my strikers and winger (if also playing 4-2-3-1) are not 5, but more like 15 yards away from their defenders. my full backs (even when on tight and specific man marking) are not covering the opp wingers at all, giving the full backs passing option 1. And my centre mids are too deep as well, leaving the opp MCs/DMs open to play out from the back. I don'T know how to replicate the pressing the AI achieves so easily, and that's what is probably furstrating me the most. every AI team needing a goal will press this exact way. I cannot press this was to save my life, and I've tried a million things to make my pressing loke like what it does for the AI. I just feel I'm at a disadvantage since I have to guess what setting would achieve the pressing I want, while the AI just knows how to do it.

It also does not look like they're on hassle opponents either since they are not using 3 men to rush onto a single player like my guys do (even without hassle). instead they press the ball with one assigned guy, sometimes 2 while the other guys perfectly cut off the passing options. I have not once found a way to replicate that. I cannot win the ball back when a team decides to pass it around, and it doesn't matter if they pass it around in their own half (with none of my guys willing to close down whatsoever) or around my penalty box (with ma centre mids dropping into the box rather than callenging their own deeper centre mids, even with close down more or hassle opponents. Yet, the AI will only let you pass around when they have the result they want. as soon as that'S not the case it#s almost impossible to retain possession. since the AI team will deploy the press I described above.

I feel if I was just able to replicate that same pressing behavior, cutting off their passing options all around the pitch that would help me a) stop these bloody through balls an b) provide a lot more space when I'm on the attack after winning the ball back from a bad clearance. So any ideas how I can achieve that I've outlines above?

[bieritarier]

If you use Control, what benefits do you think Play Out Of Defence, Play Wider and Much Higher Tempo have?

By default, your defenders are playing short, you are wide and have a fairly high tempo.

Have you used Hassle Opponents? I was very "anti" it early on, but have realised that it is very effective.

I'm currently using it in a bog standard 4-1-2-2-1 formation, with the same Mentality and Fluidity as you.

Like you, I have instructed the full backs to Close Down Less (this will override the Closing Down that the TI of Hassle Opponents applies for these players).

I use two DC Cover players, who are asked to Hold Position and Mark Tighter, and whilst we do concede the type of goals mentioned in the OP, they are few and far between.

Aside from the use of Hassle and those back four settings, the other key factor *may* be the use of a DM - where I have an Anchor.

oh, and re the use of a DM... I also tried pulling my MCL back into DML (defensive midfielder, defend with more risky and more direct passes) needless to say it didn't change 1 bit how the match played out (and yes, I'm replaiyng this same match 24871386529 times if I have to until I find an antidote while taking the 3-0 loss on the chin once I have found out how to stop them I just can'T continue on like this since the next time I face a team that just does what it wants I know I am going to break my keyboard, mouse, screen and desk, not necessarily in that order).

[olivermain83]

I had this problem for a while. My instinct was always to drop deeper, if there's no space behind the defense then there's nowhere for the winger to run to. That didn't seem to help.

What worked better for me was pushing higher up, or much higher up. I guess the idea is that there's less space for the CF to drop into and when the ball is played up to him the CD's are better positioned to step forward and intercept it. I also use a DM though which will obviously help with neutralising a CF.

[bieritarier]

ok I've replayed it again... wnet 2-0 up (extremely lucky!) then they came back... every highlight (every minute) through ball to one of their wingers to either score to fire in a cross). at 2-0 we had CCCs 4-1 in dortmunds favor, 10 minutes later it was 8-1 and they scored their thrid from what was funnily not recorded as a CCC although clearly should have been.

The AI will create CCC after CCC at will and there is nothing, nothing I can do to stop it. play contain and they rip me apart, play control or attacking and they rip me apart, play bog standard and they rip me apart play hassle and they rip me apart, stand off and they rip me apart. there are some matches you can'T win no matter how good your team is. What bugs me most is, even though I'm winning the majority of matches, I never feel in control. Most teams will just sit back and be happy with the draw so my team will naturally play ok but not create a lot. Once I score there are two options:

a) opponent still does not want to commit more than their striker forward (doesnt' mean that guy isn't a constant threat to tear my whole defense apart) and the match largely plays out as it did

b) they now need a goal, mark out all my midfielders and let my other guys run into dead ends, two quick passes, scoring opportunity.

What's more is, if it's b) all of a sudden the opp wins every key header, is always quicker to the ball (it does not matter how slow their players are, they will outpace everyone in my team), they seem to win about every battle all over the field.

I can neither get my team to press as aggressively as above, nor can I ever get them to sit as deep, narrow and tightly as the opponent. I'm not saying the AI can do things I cannot do. All I'm saying is that I'm at a massive disadvantage since the AI is coded to achieve what it wants based on how the ME works, not like me who has to guess what the AI team is doing and how to setup my team to counter it. I'd love to get me straightforward tactical instructions. that are actually meaningful rather then the guesswork I have to put up with right now.

[olivermain83]

I'm not saying the AI can do things I cannot do. All I'm saying is that I'm at a massive disadvantage since the AI is coded to achieve what it wants based on how the ME works, not like me who has to guess what the AI team is doing and how to setup my team to counter it. I'd love to get me straightforward tactical instructions. that are actually meaningful rather then the guesswork I have to put up with right now.

I can totally relate to this. Presumably the AI is coded with counter attack, park the bus, control possession, all out attack builds. It's kind like going on a coaching course. As a human we ultimately have the advantage because we aren't restricted by codes but it's damn frustrating not knowing how set up said builds in the first place to achieve what we want to achieve.

[bieritarier]

I can totally relate to this. Presumably the AI is coded with counter attack, park the bus, control possession, all out attack builds. It's kind like going on a coaching course. As a human we ultimately have the advantage because we aren't restricted by codes but it's damn frustrating not knowing how set up said builds in the first place to achieve what we want to achieve.

It goes further than that really. I just tired to specifically man mark their marauding full back on the right. Next thing that happens? all of a sudden that guy stays back while the left full back is becoing offensive. so I reverse things as well. now the right full back is all of a sudden going forward again. I mark both. none are going forward, instead now they push an additional midfielder up for wide support.

it's like the AI doesn'T have to stick to the rules we're all asked to follow. it will just do whatever is needed to outsmart you. I don'T have a problem with a smart AI, but it's almost like I have to watch the matches in full to actually remotely have a chance to counter-counteract the AI. I have a problem with never being in the drivers seat in matches, it is always the AI determining where my players can go and what chances I get. Player quality? bah. reputation is much more important than player quality. If you're high rep and play your U19 you won't notice a lot of difference compared to your first team (well, I don't).

Ah well, I have no problem needing 50 to 60 hours to get through a season. but not 150. it's a game ffs.

[bloopy]

Ok. So there are a few things.

@bieritarier I basically have the same setup, and have gone through the same thought / tweaking process as you did.

One thing you have to consider though, when changing tactics, there is (i feel, from my observations) a period of adjustment for the players, so if you play the same match over and over, your results might not be as accurate as if the team have been running with the formation/roles combination for a few games at least.

Aside from that, I second everything you say, especially on how the AI press your team.

The best result I had (over a season) was having the center mids be a CM-D and DLP (S/D , depending on the match). coupled along with a high line, and both CB on Cover duty. this causes the center mids to drop a bit deeper when the defenders get the ball, and offer another passing option.

I also had the team playing narrower and with control / attacking mentality.

Another thing that helps is having the team "be more disciplined", and obviously having the wingers man mark their opposing number or the fb.

Still, I'm having trouble stopping that specific move, or at least cut it down, in my current season. and I would love if someone can help with creating a more well

organized - team pressure scheme.

For the record, here is the tactics:

G (D) - Distribute to defenders, pass it shorter

CWB (A) - Fewer Risky, Stay Wider, Shoot Less

CD ©

CD ©

CWB (A) - Fewer Risky, Stay Wider, Shoot Less

DLP(D)

DLP(S)

IF (S) Sit Narrower

AP(S) (sometimes turns into AM (S/A))

IF(S) Sit Narrower

AF(A)

TI - Work ball into box, play out of defense, retain possession, shorter passing, hassle opponents, higher tempo, play narrower

Control / Very fluid

[Dave9ffc]

It can be very helpful to think about marking the space rather than marking the man. Through balls are successful when it's man against man and the striker has more pace or good movement. To nullify through balls I went 5 at the back early on as the space for through balls is constricted and instead of the ball going into the gap between fb and cb there's now a player in the way and less space either side. Think as well maybe about matching up the levels on the flanks. If you have a fb against a wide midfielder or winger from "central midfield" depth, then their player has lots of room to run with the ball and your fb has to either step out of the defensive line or let him run. In some cases a wingback level player can be more effective defensively than a fb level player as they are naturally in a better position to mark the player. This will almost always have to be compensated for though by an extra dm or cb.

Think about the space the opposition is taking advantage of and make a plan to close the space and nullify the oportunities.

[bloopy]

@Dave9ffc

That is a good advice, and is what I'm trying to achieve. I've noticed I struggle way more against a flat 442, and was considering this option as well.

One noticable thing as well as you pointed out, is that one of the CB usually will have to move forward out to try and stop the passer, which makes the pass and space so much larger. I guess I will try and inverting the mid field trio, go DM-CM-CM, and maybe even push the FB to WB. In fact maybe even having the wingers start deeper will create a more fluid attacking scheme, as they can get the ball with a bit more space.

I'll give it a try for a few games, see how much difference it makes.

[Jambo98]

What really annoys me about this scenario, is that i cant find a simple instruction (or combination) which tells my centre backs to never close down a striker who drops deep. I want my 2 centre backs to remain in position, and if a striker drops off pass him onto midfield. Hell i would settled for just letting him drop off, get as much space as he needs. If he turns, has time to pick a pass/shot, then i will accept that.

I have played "stand off", drop deep, cover mentality. Still my CB chases a dropping off striker. Im not looking to achieve anything complex, just a simple instruction to my centre backs.....

Oh well, keep messing around seems the only way at times.

[bloopy]

I think unfortunately, what you are describing has to do with not having anyone to pick him up. i've noticed this very much when not having a DM in the side. Best solution i found is having a dlp-d, which tends to drop back further, and picks up the striker. but this is a flaw in the formation itself.

I miss the very old "edit positions" from early CM. you could just tell everyone where you want them to be according to where the ball is.

I wonder if "Hold position" will help with that as well. The description makes it seems as this is an attacking thing only, but worth a try.

[Jambo98]

Interesting shout the "hold position" instruction actually. Will give that a go.

Ive experienced the same problem with a DM in the side - CB follows a dropping off striker, leaves a gaping hole in behind - Now dont get me wrong, i am not saying it shouldnt ever happen. Its a method by which goals can be scored in real games, but far more rarely than in the current ME.

Ah the old WIB/WOB tactics...........completely exploitable. I actually downloaded CM01/02 just the other day, which had those options in it. Could create some mad successful and unrealistic tactics!

[bloopy]

I think other aspects come into play as well obviously, decision making and team work, along with aggression are the first to come to mind.

I'm also wondering if there are line of sight checks that happen, so what we see as obviously a mistake would have been viewed differently have we been in the player's point of view.

[Jambo98]

Yup, player attributes have to play a part. But i think plenty have seen it happen with Top defenders, and time and time again. Also my point more is not that a defender does it, more that i dont have a simple way to instruct them not to do it. Thats more my issue.

[bloopy]

So looking at the first match with the new tactic.

made it a 4141 flat, very fluid, control and left everything else blank.

Roles -

GK - D

CWB-A X2

CD - D X2

(DM)RGA - S

(CM)DLP - D

(CM)AP - S

WM - A X2

AF - A

facing a 41221 formation.

First half no key highlights to speak of.

losing the battle of possession (match wide) 54/46 (normally i have around 60% possession, but this is work in progress).

leading 1-0 at hf, goal from corner.

48th minute, 2-0, after a good cross from the left.

58th minute, 3-0, counter attack

70th minute, 4-0, penalty.

so far very solid, not giving away any chances, however not controlling the game at all. so far, no passes in behind the defense, especially to the wingers.

i can see the regista sitting well, and while the opposing CF is dropping a bit deeper, the CB won't follow until he gets the ball, however the RGA is right there to close the gap, so it seems very solid.

75th minute. defense line broken for the first time, a bad pass in the middle of the pitch, R winger cuts inside, and finds the left winger over the top of the right back.

luckily, GK saves.

84th minute, good attack from opponent, goal scored from a shot by MC just outside the box. (can't complain)

87th minute, opps LW gets by WM and FB, and crosses well for a CF header, 4-2. again, can't complain.

especially since i was at 4-0 up, end of match, didn't make any subs.

I also didn't change anything during the match. 90 minutes playing the same.

Made 6 shots, 4 on target (leathel).

Passing was 78% / 89% / 78% - great in the mid, not good enough in the back.

Other notes:

Wide midfielders are too wide, need to get them to sit tighter, i want more of an IF role, just coming from deeper. this was also evident in how the FB/WM were way to close to each other on the line.

they do however aid in the closing down of the opposing winger, which is great help, and prevents the easy 2 on 1 when a FB comes into an attacking position.

I'm playing FMC, so I have to relay on my eyes more then any tools... (aka , results may vary )

[Dave9ffc]

You have basically 3 playmakers in midfield, regista, deep lying and advanced. The playmakers will tend to sit quite static which can cause problems. All three will play risky and direct passes so this could be why your possession is a bit low. A cm attack or box to box midfielder would provide good support for you striker and you should give you more solutions in the passing game. Also perhaps you could look at changing some of your fbs or wms to support as then they will look to become involved more often rather than take up purely attacking opportunities. Glad things have improved though.

[bloopy]

that's an insteresting point, i did want to have the AP push forward more then he is at the moment. but I like the idea of having 3 techincal,creative midfielders (currently irllmandi , hughes and erikson) where 2 of them can do go defensive work in the middle of the pitch, with the 3rd as a back up when facing tough opposition.

I think that having the wm get a bit further and narrower will provide alot of passing options from anywhere on the pitch. I can probably try and reduce the through balls as well to counter out the roles.

[Guest El Payaso]

You can't stop them all, because it is a viable goalscoring "move" which is seen time and again in real life, as well as FM.

I don't know what kind of football you're watching and whether you're a player yourself but that is not a way to score regularly in real life. I remember seeing one goal scored like that and that was the Neymar's goal against Atletico and even in that Barcelona won the ball back high at the pitch and the defence didn't have the time to group themselves.

Lets think about it: first of all it's basic defending that when the opposition progresses with the ball through the middle, the full-back will come narrower to force the middfield player to make his own decision whether it is a pass or a long shot. The full-back also has the advantage when the midfielder decides to play the pass: he's facing the game so he can see all the time what the midfielder is doing and the only thing he needs to concentrate on is to intercept that pass, I've watched loads of Chelsea's games during this season and Azpi and Brane are intercepting almost every single pass attempt like that.

What about the in-cutting winger: he is facing the game with his back, needs to time the run just right not to be caught on offside, needs to rely on defenders (CB and FB) to make a mistake in intercepting that all obvious pass...

And the player that passes the ball: needs to get the timing right and needs to play just the right kind of pass. Needs great passing ability and creativity.

Seeing these kind of occasions rarely would be ok but regularly and after slow build-ups: basic defending errors and in need of fixing.

And seeing these happening once in two games would be okay if we would play against Barcelona in every game and the in cutting wingers were Neymar or Messi and the player who passes would be Iniesta or Xavi.

And from whom we keep seeing these: mediocre players, the passer should have no intelligence to play right kind of passes regularly and the winger often has lower pace, anticapation, off the ball attributes than the full-back who is apparently marking him. The full backs often have good pace, ability to mark and anticapate. Just one of the cheap ways to score goals.

This guy had Neymar in his pocket for almost the whole 180 minutes...

[RTHerringbone]

I disagree that by default full backs should come narrow and I also disagree that this is "basic defending"; it depends entirely on the formation you use, the formation you face, who has the ball, where they have the ball.

For a full back in a (FM) 4-1-2-2-1 or 4-2-3-1 to go narrow when their AML/R team mates don't track back, and where the AI AML/R has just picked up the ball inside your half, would be frankly ridiculous.

Bottom line for me is this - full backs are responsible for defending the flanks primarily. This doesn't mean they will just hug the touchline to defend, but it does mean that they need to maintain a fair width for prolonged spells of a defensive phase of play.

From what I see in FM, the passes between the DC and full back are not occurring at points in play where you might expect a full back to go narrow (which for me, is at a very deep defensive phase - established after a period of concerted defending). They occur when the defensive line is more advanced and a pass behind the defensive line is available.

[bloopy]

To further add, I've been playing with this tactic experiment for the whole day now, looking at all the match on full, pausing to see what happens when possession changes, how pressure is applied and so on.

I the last 7 matches, starting with a brand new tactic, i conceded 7 goals, and scored 24.

Only 1 of those 7 came from the above issue.

So far i found that the most effective thing is to actually have your AMR/L sit at the MR/L position, and being instructed to get further.

this causes them to track back, while not closing down the oppnt, or even track back if the ball is on the other flank.

coupled with a CM-D, I get a very solid defensive shape. In fact 3/7 goals conceded came from corners, 1 from the winger, 1 from a counter, and 2 from good attacking moves. Teams also are having trouble even creating chances, I beat Arsenal away 3-0 and they had no CCC, and destroyed PSG 4-0 at home.

more updates on results to come.

[Guest El Payaso]

where the AI AML/R has just picked up the ball inside your half, would be frankly ridiculous.

I was talking about when midfielders have the ball and are progressing towards the defence. It's all part of reading the game when you're a full-back. Allowing a pass between CB and FB for me is always some kind of a mistake and I often play as right full-back and once again: never remember us conceding a goal like that.

Bottom line for me is this - full backs are responsible for defending the flanks primarily. This doesn't mean they will just hug the touchline to defend, but it does mean that they need to maintain a fair width for prolonged spells of a defensive phase of play.

Depends on where the ball is. If it is in the middle, then full-backs should come more narrow to protect the penalty area from through balls. It would quite harmless to allow the midfielders to pass the ball to the flanks at these kind of situations because they often have to float the ball there and that takes the pace pace away from the attack and allows the full-back once again move closer to the winger who now has the ball. Also in real life most of the crosses are quite harmless, in game it is a different story though...

From what I see in FM, the passes between the DC and full back are not occurring at points in play where you might expect a full back to go narrow (which for me, is at a very deep defensive phase - established after a period of concerted defending). They occur when the defensive line is more advanced and a pass behind the defensive line is available.

Well I often see these occuring after slow build-ups and especially my right winger often is there completely un-marked inside the penalty area.

[RTHerringbone]

I was talking about when midfielders have the ball and are progressing towards the defence. It's all part of reading the game when you're a full-back. Allowing a pass between CB and FB for me is always some kind of a mistake and I often play as right full-back and once again: never remember us conceding a goal like that.

It's Catch-22. If they go narrow, they may reduce those passes getting through, but they vacate the flanks. Remove one threat, create another.

My hey-day of footballing was just Sunday League level as an attacking wide midfielder (more Shaun Wright-Phillips than Arjen Robben )

That's a very low and poor level of football, but full backs at that level were more interested in tracking me high and kicking me, than maintaining any semblance of defensive shape and narrowness. I still have the scars more than a decade later!

[Guest El Payaso]

It's Catch-22. If they go narrow, they may reduce those passes getting through, but they vacate the flanks. Remove one threat, create another.

Like I said: moving ball to the flank often removes the immediate threat as the attack slows down cause if the defence is organized they will often have to float the ball to the flank as there often are the centre backs, full backs and also 1-2 CMs between the midfielder and the goal. There atleast shouldn't be space for a simple pass down on the floor and even if there is, there should no way be a chance to pass the ball to space. If the defence is doing it's job a pass down the floor would be intercepted if it is to the space. I'm not sure that is easy to understand but that's my view...

My hey-day of footballing was just Sunday League level as an attacking wide midfielder (more Shaun Wright-Phillips than Arjen Robben )

That's a very low and poor level of football, but full backs at that level were more interested in tracking me high and kicking me, than maintaining any semblance of defensive shape and narrowness. I still have the scars more than a decade later!

We also play in quite low levels but think the game more tactically. We don't have the best individuals and not even "time" (more of an interest issue if you ask me) to train properly but we're still quite successful. And the thing behind our success is the style of play that we use: we're really solid defensively and in some weekend tournamets have been able to limit even those teams who have had players from Finnish highest leagues. No-one is getting anything for free against us.

And I've also played lot as a winger and I'm finding it much tougher to find spaces behind defence or inside penalty area than I'm finding basic marking.

[THOG]

As RTHerringbone said, this is an actual goal event, though I do think it happens a bit too often. However, knowing that actually gives you an advantage over the AI since you can prevent a good percentage of goals by protecting against it. As RTHerringbone also said, everything in tactics is a balance requiring trade-offs, and recognizing where that balance tips puts you in the stronger position.

[THOG]

I'd add that "Play Narrower" is more of an in-possession instruction that will have major effects on your build-up approach. Teams automatically and reactively narrow in the defensive phase. As wwfan said way back in Tactical Theorems & Frameworks 09':

Although a team’s defensive width will naturally be narrower than the attacking one, it will be risky for weaker teams to spread too wide as once they lose possession they will become vulnerable to quick passing movements that exploit space before the formation can regain defensive shape.

And from older FM manuals:

The width your team lines up with largely comes into effect when they are in possession. The slider is set from Narrow to Wide. Setting the slider further to the right will indicate that you want your players to move towards the touchlines when they have the ball and in particular, get the ball to those in wider positions in order to stretch the opposition. A more narrow setting will attempt to bring the play inside and force matters through the centre of the pitch.

IRL, teams rely on wide midfielders getting back to cover space on the flanks when they're defending deep. Higher up, teams rely more on the midfield shifting across to prevent gaps from being created in the middle. Watch matches IRL and you'll often see teams compressing into a sort of 6-2-2/6-3-1 shape when they're pushed really deep into their own third. There's no real benefit to playing wider when defending in your own half. As I've said before, in defence, a gap is a gap is a gap. If a ball or a player can get through it, you've got a problem.

[bloopy]

So I played a few more games, tweaking and playing around with decent results alotgether.

I Wanted to try and shift back to my MC-MC-AM midfield, as it works better with the kind of players i have.

Settled on a CM-D CM-S AM-S as a starting point.

Defense is FB-S - CD-D X2 FB-S

my 2 IF have been moved to MR/L position, with WM - A , get further forward, sit narrower.

Defensivly, this was very solid, I did concede a few more goals, (especially right after changing the formation) but again only 1 came from the wings. opposed to the 4/5 I scored that way, I guess it makes me feel better on the shape of defense.

I need a few more tweaks, as I'm giving away possession a lot, and I feel the defensive line is too deep.

So there is more work for sure

To conclude and address the OP.

Having AMR/L makes you far more exposed to those moves. no one else is tracking down far enough. this isn't easily resolved by just giving a more defensive duty to yourwingers, so the best solution in this case is to have them start out at MR/L. for me as I wanted them to be an IF role, adding some PI got them to perform the tasks.

There was an added bonus of them tracking back more, which was they would get the ball facing the defense, in space, and since they are very good dribblers and finishers, there goalscoring numbers have improved actually.

My only concern with this is how having my wingers that are ineffectual in the MR/L positions achieve the same results from their natural spot as AM.

Or how much am I really hampering their performance since they are out of position?