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Potential Ability isn't static?


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I was under the impression that PA doesn't change - sources on the internet say so and I hadn't noticed any change in it myself. Yet yesterday I noticed that PA (actual value) of one of my youngsters took a dip (180 -> 163), around the time he got injured. It bugs me somewhat, because he was quite special (Technique 20, eh?), albeit injury-prone, and I was looking forward to developing him into a great player (I get a kick out of molding players and seeing what they can do on the pitch). Now, sadly, I have less of developing to do ;-)

The aim of this topic is two-fold: to confirm that PA can indeed decrease and it is not a bug, and if this be the case, to inform people of it.

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So players can't be better than their PA... Bit silly pretty sure not allot of people saw Bale being world class.

The point is Bale's PA never changed, he always had the ability. What changed was your perception of it.

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There have been rumours over the years that a serious injury can permanently lower PA from one fixed amount to another as the OP has described but I believe its fairly rare and I've never seen it confirmed or denied by SI.

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I can't remember exactly, I had a Asian regen that had massive potential, I'm sure he had a major injury and lost 20-25 points of PA. I know his potential star rating moved from 5 to 3, I think I checked his numbers and they'd changed too.

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Obscurities like this one, is one of the reasons I hate this game.

50% say it changes - 50% say it doesn't change.

How hard, I can't possibly stress it enough, is it for SI to come out and answer it?

Not just this question, there is plenty of grey areas that user don't know how the game is coded.

And the most annoying part is having to deal with a rare obscure situation, and having the fanbois calling out realism, on something nobody knows if it is even coded or not.

For example do players that are no longer in your club, get a boost in their performance when they play against you? If it ever happens the fanbois will find an odd example when it happened in real life and call it realistic, while it might not be programmed at all.

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Obscurities like this one, is one of the reasons I hate this game.

50% say it changes - 50% say it doesn't change.

How hard, I can't possibly stress it enough, is it for SI to come out and answer it?

Not just this question, there is plenty of grey areas that user don't know how the game is coded.

And the most annoying part is having to deal with a rare obscure situation, and having the fanbois calling out realism, on something nobody knows if it is even coded or not.

For example do players that are no longer in your club, get a boost in their performance when they play against you? If it ever happens the fanbois will find an odd example when it happened in real life and call it realistic, while it might not be programmed at all.

The thing is, you're not really meant to see these numbers. In any other game you would be oblivious to what happens under the bonnet with PA (or anything) and how the game makers have decided to use it. So if you play the game how it should be played, your only insight into PA is scouts, stars and on field perforamnce, and they give you a vague representation at best (a bit like real life, it comes down to judgement ).

SI give you a peek under the bonnet because of the editor. So we know a bit of how it works because they're really want community involvement and people changing things around and creating content.

Regarding OP, I would suggest, he is using a save game editor or something to view the PA's and Ca's over a period of game time. Which, IMO, defeats the purpose of building up players. AKA cheating. He already knows who the star is, because he's checked. Then he see's that its dropped but to be fair to him, he's not complaining, just clarifing. Anyway, shouldn't be looking at it in the first place. IMO. :D

So I don't know why your so annoyed with SI, they give you much more insight into how the game works than any game I know of.

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The thing is, you're not really meant to see these numbers. In any other game you would be oblivious to what happens under the bonnet with PA (or anything) and how the game makers have decided to use it. So if you play the game how it should be played, your only insight into PA is scouts, stars and on field perforamnce, and they give you a vague representation at best (a bit like real life, it comes down to judgement ).

SI give you a peek under the bonnet because of the editor. So we know a bit of how it works because they're really want community involvement and people changing things around and creating content.

Regarding OP, I would suggest, he is using a save game editor or something to view the PA's and Ca's over a period of game time. Which, IMO, defeats the purpose of building up players. AKA cheating. He already knows who the star is, because he's checked. Then he see's that its dropped but to be fair to him, he's not complaining, just clarifing. Anyway, shouldn't be looking at it in the first place. IMO. :D

So I don't know why your so annoyed with SI, they give you much more insight into how the game works than any game I know of.

In world of warcraft (there are more games) if your character farts, we know precisely how it affects every aspect of the game. The feedback is million times *more* than FM feedback.

Regarding cheating, there is no cheating, just various levels of tolerance of what is moral or not. And that is not for you, me or anyone to decide.

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So the situation the OP is describing is a bug then?

Or that he has misread one of the times he has checked. Could also be using be using the FM real time update that is floating around on Twitter.

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Just to further cloud the water- my understanding on PA:

At the start of a new save, PA is a fixed number on each save. This can be an exact number if the PA is fixed by the researchers in the database, or in a range if the PA is it within that range for example -10 ( 170-200 ) or -9 ( 150-180 ). This second option can mean that if you start a new save, the fixed PA may be different from a previous save, but will still be fixed within the given PA range.

It is my understanding that this PA will remain fixed for the duration of that save, but may be adjusted downward if there is a major, perhaps career threatening injury which could affect the players ability to reach his fixed potential.

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I gave FM Genie Scout a spin after more than 10 years with a (formerly) weakling club, to see what it offers, and possibly learn more about the game. I e.g. found that my scouts scouting nations fail to find many talented players, even if multiple of them, with highest Judging Potential possible and as good Determination as available, scout the nation multiple times - thus I started working on ways to scout those players. It also gave me some insight into scout/assistant star estimation (the reason I started using it, perhaps, after noticing that the assistant manager with 20/20 Judging Potential was giving youngsters bought for good money fewer stars than the scouts with 20/20 Judging Potential), tutoring and training, (club's) reputation improvement, etc. I also found out actual PA (not star estimation alone) may indeed decrease ;-)

The player in question was deemed injury-prone (after joining my club, I believe; some other weakness was masking it in scout reports). He got a few minor injuries, then he was out for 2 weeks and got injured for 4 weeks in the first U18 game he played after overcoming his previous injury. When he overcame his last injury I noticed his potential star rating fell from around 4 stars to 3, which I took to be a regular thing, as the assistant manager likes to lower his estimate after injuries/lack of training/lack of improvement. Some time later I noticed in FM Genie Scout that his PA was suspiciously low, and its history feature supports the theory of its fall.

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I see a lot of players failing to reach their potential (I'm trying to save some of them from this fate), I know injuries hamper their development by limiting their training time and lowering their CA, I know that star potential estimation gets cut when they turn 25. It's the first time I see an actual fall in PA, however I had no opportunity to look at the original PA of my other injury-prone players. For all I know, there are more players in my team with lowered PA, as I am not tracking it much.

To summarize, for those interested in the game mechanics: as you can see, it seems even quite minor injuries can lower the potential.

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Here is my two cents.

I believe it to be exactly as FrazT said.

Here is some numbers from my current save (End of season1).

Gerard Pique

Starting PA

174

PA After Broken Foot (4 months)

174

PA After Broken Leg (3 months, still out)

174

Also checked injuries to Juan Mata (Broken Foot), Cristiano Ronaldo (Hammy), Kevin-Prince Boateng (Broken Leg), Mignolet (Cruciate Ligament)

PA remained all the same.

So no proof to back the claim up from me I am afraid!

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In world of warcraft (there are more games) if your character farts, we know precisely how it affects every aspect of the game. The feedback is million times *more* than FM feedback.

Regarding cheating, there is no cheating, just various levels of tolerance of what is moral or not. And that is not for you, me or anyone to decide.

Its cheating and you know it. You are never meant to know the exact PA numeral for a player, playing FM as it is designed. You are meant to use your judgement within the game. Its clear as day.

So, with your first point. If player gets injured, within the game, they may go from 5 star to 4 1/2 star. Thats what your meant to see.

So go look at PA if you need to, as long as your know, FM scout is not part of the game.

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My experience with FM scout leads me to believe there is a fixed ultimate PA which never changes, but also a secondary PA ceiling which can come into effect if a player is injured or if he hasn't progressed fast enough. The reason I think this is if you use the "show potential" tickbox (or whatever it is) in FM scout, the CA increases to the maximum that player can reach (along with the attributes). At the start of a players career this max CA is always the same as the PA, but I've noticed if a player has a bad injury, this max potential CA can drop to less than the PA.

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I think it can change with a very serious injury but is very very rare. Tried to speak to the coder responsible for it but he's currently on holiday. It certainly can't go up.

There is a PPA as well of course (a percieved player ability) which is what scouts and coaches see. The older a player gets, the more chance a good scout will see his true PA.

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I think it can change with a very serious injury but is very very rare. Tried to speak to the coder responsible for it but he's currently on holiday. It certainly can't go up.

There is a PPA as well of course (a percieved player ability) which is what scouts and coaches see. The older a player gets, the more chance a good scout will see his true PA.

Its not rare at all. I see it happen on several of my players every single savegame. Most leg injuries with 2 months injury time or more lowers the star rating of the player, pot star rating is lowered due to PA falling. I guess rare is relative though.

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Its not rare at all. I see it happen on several of my players every single savegame. Most leg injuries with 2 months injury time or more lowers the star rating of the player, pot star rating is lowered due to PA falling. I guess rare is relative though.

PA star rating, yes, which I think is PPA?

Neil is talking about the actual PA number.

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MelbVictory,

Why does it matter to you how other people play their game?

Also with the bale anaology. What was his PA in earlier versions of FM? Surely if he was destined to be world class this would be evident in earlier versions if its ust our interpretations of someones ability?

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It's a good thing nobody asked your opinion then.

How other people play their game is irrelevant to you, and it's a game, people are free to play it however the hell they want. If somebody wants to use an editor to make every player in their team have 200CA then how exactly does it effect you? If you don't like "cheating" then don't do it in your game, but don't get on your high bloody horse if other people do it.

And as for your lines about how SI allow users to have a look at hidden parts of the game using the editor that they released, and so as a result we should all be bowing and thanking them for graciously allowing us to do that, without asking any questions at all, don't be daft. If SI make aspects of the game visible as they have done with the editor then people have every right to ask about how aspects of it work if it's not clear to them.

Nobody really asked for yours either, but the beauty of this board is that it's public and people can put across their opinions. He has his viewpoint, so let him air it. He put it across quite well actually, but I guess if you disagree, he should just shut up, right?

It looks like Neil has got the closest to the answer. Seems that it can go down in very rare cases, so is working as designed. Hopefully he gets word from the guy who actually coded it, and that should clear it up.

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I don't get why people care, then whine about the game being unrealistic.

Why not try and be a football manager, look at the player attributes (which is way more than real life get, but hey where would be the fun without the attributes you do get :) ), personality of the guy, injury history, what you can afford and what you think your squad needs. Real life involves risk on whether that player works out or how good he could be. If I know beforehand then where's the fun in that?

Arguing over whether potential is give or take on a point system between 1 and 200 is here or there but doesn't it take the fun out of it?? You're trying to beat or play a database of numbers and formula's if that's the case. Is that a football manager game or something else.

But hey each to their own and as said it's nobody's business how the game is played and enjoyed is it? It's up to you.

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But hey each to their own and as said it's nobody's business how the game is played and enjoyed is it? It's up to you.

The above quote was exactly what I had in mind when I said:

Regarding cheating, there is no cheating, just various levels of tolerance of what is moral or not. And that is not for you, me or anyone to decide.

My perception of the game is just numbers and how to grow them or decline/reduce them.

Other's perception might be that they are really managing Messi - the real thing.

Whatever floats your boat!

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People on the internet, also in this very topic, say that the PA is static or "generally" static. I happened to observe a decrease in actual PA. Due to the perceived dissonance, I decided to ask here for clarification. I thought some people might be interested in seeing an occurrence that contradicts the "PA is static" (which isn't easily observable, as PA is hidden) consensus.

There's quite a lot of contradicting opinions about many FM elements on the internet and many things are hard to verify without seeing the code or having insider knowledge, which is fine by me. Yet some people want to see if their club's reputation is changing or not (what does "mostly unchanged", as the game calls it, mean?), what Spirited really means (maybe it would be better if only devs knew what each personality means; I'd hunt for realists), if their physios aren't making stuff up when they recommend sending players on vacation or what nation produces the best youth - and that they can do.

External tools aren't telling me who will be a star and who won't. They might have helped me optimize my scouting network, which lets me see potential stars (before they get old enough to be useless to me) that my scouts aren't finding when scouting nations, and it saved me from clicking hundreds of times to get a team report on every possible team.

And I wanted to see what a guy with 20 in Technique and generally great (technical/physical) skills can do in the first squad. Would he perform some great moves? Maybe I'd see my first overhead kick (I haven't seen goals scored in some great technical way in FM)? Now he's less likely to be a first squad player (hence I won't see him play that much), because I have around 5 guys on his position (currently I have 39 people in the first team, with an average age of 21, each youngster with at least three stars of potential) and his potential in stars is now lower than theirs (and they all need game time). He's the one guy I would prefer not to lose his (static!) PA. After a 4 week injury, no less.

Maybe I'll create another topic titled "What a guy with 20 in Technique can do?" ;-)

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Nobody really asked for yours either, but the beauty of this board is that it's public and people can put across their opinions. He has his viewpoint, so let him air it. He put it across quite well actually, but I guess if you disagree, he should just shut up, right?

People can certainly voice their opinions, but he used the word, "cheat", which is pretty strong language. For someone to cheat, someone or something has to be cheated (if you cheat on a test, the examining body has been cheated, for example). So who exactly has been cheated if someone looks up values in an editor? Hell, SI even provide an editor for this game!

There are people who like to mod games to make them look better, make characters shoot more accurately, etc... Are those people cheating, too (assuming single-player, of course)? If you play a First-Person-Shooter and blow up everything in sight, and I play the same game and stealth around trying not to kill anyone, have I cheated? Nope, I just played the game differently than you and no one cared.

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I think PA can change up and down, but it's exceedingly rare and generally only occurs to youth players who have a lot of improving to do to for their CA to reach anywhere near their PA.

Edit: I might add that I have used scouting programs on select saves for years and years, and have observed the PAs change.

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I think PA can change up and down, but it's exceedingly rare and generally only occurs to youth players who have a lot of improving to do to for their CA to reach anywhere near their PA.

Has anyone, anywhere, on even one single occasion seen just a single solitary instance of a players PA increasing by even 1 single point? Ever?

I don't mean PPA. I mean PA that is hidden, (and should remain hidden), within the game.

As I have never seen anyone post that they have, I am sticking with the opinion that it does not happen. That it cannot happen.

With regards to a players PA dropping as a result of a serious injury..... isn't that exactly what we want to happen? :confused: I know it's certainly what I want to happen.

Have I given it much thought over the years? Well no not really. Do you know why I haven't given it a lot of thought? Because PA is hidden and I can't see it. This makes it largely irrelevant to me.

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Has anyone, anywhere, on even one single occasion seen just a single solitary instance of a players PA increasing by even 1 single point? Ever?

I have seen it. Last time it was in FM13 where my own youngster's PA went from about 160 to over 180 for no apparent reason. I loaded an older save to make sure I didn't remember his PA wrong, but it indeed was earlier much lower than it was at the later date. I went on holiday from the earlier date to the same point in game where I noticed the higher figure, but in that instance the PA remained unchanged. I don't know if it was because of a rare bug in the game, because the unofficial scouting program somehow damaged the game files, or because the PA is supposed to very seldom "evolve".

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MelbVictory,

Why does it matter to you how other people play their game?

I dont care how people play the game (as per my comments). Its the below opinion I disagree with. I have no problem with OP or the query.

Obscurities like this one, is one of the reasons I hate this game.

50% say it changes - 50% say it doesn't change.

How hard, I can't possibly stress it enough, is it for SI to come out and answer it?

Not just this question, there is plenty of grey areas that user don't know how the game is coded.

And the most annoying part is having to deal with a rare obscure situation, and having the fanbois calling out realism, on something nobody knows if it is even coded or not.

For example do players that are no longer in your club, get a boost in their performance when they play against you? If it ever happens the fanbois will find an odd example when it happened in real life and call it realistic, while it might not be programmed at all.

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It's a good thing nobody asked your opinion then.

How other people play their game is irrelevant to you, and it's a game, people are free to play it however the hell they want. If somebody wants to use an editor to make every player in their team have 200CA then how exactly does it effect you? If you don't like "cheating" then don't do it in your game, but don't get on your high bloody horse if other people do it.

And as for your lines about how SI allow users to have a look at hidden parts of the game using the editor that they released, and so as a result we should all be bowing and thanking them for graciously allowing us to do that, without asking any questions at all, don't be daft. If SI make aspects of the game visible as they have done with the editor then people have every right to ask about how aspects of it work if it's not clear to them.

You missed the point on this one.

I have no problem with people finding out exactly who their best prospect is through the FM scout. Its certainly a great way to develop your players.

I was making reference to the person Methos, who I can quote 'hates' this game, because of the OP's obscure PA change. I simply point out that this is not something they are meant to know anyway, if the game was played as designed. As such, if the player had not looked at FMScout, there would be no reason to be angry. Hope that makes sense.

To re-iterate, I am very happy for people to see the passion people have for player development in FM, as seen by OP.

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PA can never go up.

However, certain successful tutorings can see a substantial rise in the player's CA which, at younger ages, will cause your staff to think he has higher PA than they previously did. This has no relation to his actual PA, which you have no way of knowing.

PA can go down.

But only with a few very serious injury types. However, what is far more common is a lot more injury types can cause the player's CA to go down, sometimes substantially, which again alters how the staff will view their potential (the older they are, the more it'll affect the staff's ratings of their potential). Also, certain off-field events (newgens only here) can cause CA and mental/hidden attributes to drop, also sometimes substantially, which again causes the staff to re-evaluate the player's potential.

Star Ratings do not equal PA.

What you see when you see a star ratings is a player's PPA (Perceived potential ability) which is based on a number of things like mentality, age, current ability levels etc. These PPA ratings are all relative to your squad's average CA, so the higher your squad's average CA is, the harder it'll be to find a 5 star potential player. Also, if you have 5 different scouts, it's possible to get five differing PPA readings from them depending on their scouting attributes, but the difference is unlikely to be substantial.

I hope this covers all the questions in this thread.

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PA can never go up.

<snip>

I hope this covers all the questions in this thread.

Very useful, simple, and to the point. I still have one question, though. If you go up, to post #36 (by duccio), he claims to have seen PA go up, via a third-party program.

Since there are no direct replies from an official source on this matter, it's hard to know what's fact and what's mere assumption.

Anyone care to clarify that?

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Although Ackter mentions off-field events harming a player's mental stats, I have also seen them rise following off-field events, particularly determination.

I have no idea if it means PA goes up, and based on Ackter's post it most likely doesnt, but I suppose it could be the answer if so.

Other answer could be duccio is wrong?

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Although Ackter mentions off-field events harming a player's mental stats, I have also seen them rise following off-field events, particularly determination.

I have no idea if it means PA goes up, and based on Ackter's post it most likely doesnt, but I suppose it could be the answer if so.

Other answer could be duccio is wrong?

The off-field events will only affect a player's CA - in the same way that tutoring can affect it.

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It would have been a problem with the third party program.

I'm willing to accept this as the most likely reason for the jump in the PA, but do you actually know for sure that it cannot go up on its own? Is there an official word from SI?

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You missed the point on this one.

I have no problem with people finding out exactly who their best prospect is through the FM scout. Its certainly a great way to develop your players.

I was making reference to the person Methos, who I can quote 'hates' this game, because of the OP's obscure PA change. I simply point out that this is not something they are meant to know anyway, if the game was played as designed. As such, if the player had not looked at FMScout, there would be no reason to be angry. Hope that makes sense.

To re-iterate, I am very happy for people to see the passion people have for player development in FM, as seen by OP.

Really? that is similar as in claiming I don't care if I eat ******* as I long as I think it is chocolate, because the package didn't clarify what it was.

Or it me reminds me people trying to justify something wrong when they say "but I didn't lie, I just didn't say the truth"

Games needs to be transparent. It *IS* stupid, to make a gameplay decision, that you think is affecting the game, but surprise surprise is not coded!

Even if it is coded, but that decision is not affecting the game, in the way you think it does, because it is a blurry area, that is wrong as well.

And I referred to the PA blurriness as an example of obscurity, where the community was divided in half as how it was coded, and there was apparently a lack of clarification at that point.

There are tens if not hundreds of similar obscure areas.

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Everyone is allowed their on view, and I entirely disagree that FM is a game that needs to be transparent. Football isn't predictable. It isn't case of having set things you should always do in response to certain situations, certain things that should be hidden regarding player potential, certain things that should you just simply shouldn't know. It's nearly impossible for the game to replicate real life's unpredictability in a genuine sense, and for me a certain degree of cloudiness or lack of transparency is the best way I can think of to compensate for that.

Someone made a comparison with Civ 5 in another thread, and said Civ 5 was better because "if your people are unhappy you build temples". I would stop playing FM in an instant if it was like that. If it was simply, you are losing so click this button and you win. Your striker is too slow for the defence so bring on a fast one and you win. Your team aren't attacking enough so move to overload and you win. It would be horrendous if the game was that 'transparent'. There has to be a MASSIVE element of chance and risk associated to all those decisions, even if some decisions are more like to bring results than others. That chance and risk, in my non-programming-educated opinion, can only be achieved through cloudiness (and anyone who uses FMscout jeapordises that joy of risk in a way I can't comprehend the attraction of)

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Methos is talking about the feedback of the game being transparent, not the next decision to make. In the Civilization 5 example, the user knows the city is unhappy because the feedback is transparent - the user can see the city is unhappy (although the decision to be made might not be exactly the most non-linear of decisions).

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!

Even if it is coded, but that decision is not affecting the game, in the way you think it does, because it is a blurry area, that is wrong as well.

x42bn6 I consider my point to answer this bit. Your decisions should only be capable of affecting the game in the way you think they might, not that you think they will. There should never be any will about it. It should always be unknown what is going to happen.

As for the feedback of what is going wrong, the 3d ME is for that, anything else is just guides for you to take with a pinch of salt, of course they should be cloudy too, just like manager's probably don't just stand there and implement every single thing their Ass-man suggests to them

The only thing I can take from your attempted clarification is that he is talking about the feedback of PA, but I disagree with that being what he meant because it's so blatantly clear that it should not be transparent, again returning to my point about not understanding why people ruin their game with fmscout

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Football isn't predictable

This has nothing to do with whether a computer game should be transparent. Adding a dice roll into an event that is crystal clear how it works, makes the event transparent and not predictable at the same time.

Example of unpredictable transparent design in a traditional RPG

Your attacks have a 30% chance to deal 50% of your weapons extra damage every 10 seconds. There is no way to predict every single scenario, yet you are fully aware of the mechanics of the game allowing you to make informed decisions, even if they will be beneficial in a limited number of cases.

Finally in a non-transparent design, with secret concepts and obscure design, who is the better player? the one who can guess better?

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As for the feedback of what is going wrong, the 3d ME is for that

Answer me in a transparent way, with evidence taken from the 3d ME to support it, how does fatigue (or in game terms physical condition) affects a player performance in the pitch?

We suspect it might lower the player's physical attributes and perhaps mental?

What if the game is coded in a way that it doesn't affect anything and it is just another number? Do we really want to make uninformed decisions in a computer game?

What if the game is coded that the influence physical condition has is unrealistic high or unrealistic low or even bugged? (like club reputation was in the entire FM13)

For rerference in FM13 I've read multiple reports of managers never subbing their players regardless of their physical condition and dominating every competition they participated. I myself am one of those.

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x42bn6 I consider my point to answer this bit. Your decisions should only be capable of affecting the game in the way you think they might, not that you think they will. There should never be any will about it. It should always be unknown what is going to happen.

As for the feedback of what is going wrong, the 3d ME is for that, anything else is just guides for you to take with a pinch of salt, of course they should be cloudy too, just like manager's probably don't just stand there and implement every single thing their Ass-man suggests to them

The only thing I can take from your attempted clarification is that he is talking about the feedback of PA, but I disagree with that being what he meant because it's so blatantly clear that it should not be transparent, again returning to my point about not understanding why people ruin their game with fmscout

I think that specific sentence is badly-worded, taking the spirit of his whole post into account. I think what he is trying to say is that the "blurry area" is the problem, in that the game and its developers aren't clarifying its mechanics.
Obscurities like this one, is one of the reasons I hate this game.

50% say it changes - 50% say it doesn't change.

I'm ambivient towards whether this is true or not - we already know PA matters, in the same way that this player is generally seen as having a lower "potential" than this player.

I think that Methos just wants something along the lines of: If PA does drop due to unusual circumstances, like serious injury, then this should be communicated to the user. However, you do not need to explicitly expose the old and new PA values, FMScout style - you only need to say (an email, perhaps) something like "this player might struggle to reach previous expectations because this injury is particularly serious".

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