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The_SouL

What has become of Championship/Football Manager?

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I have made my view on FM2014, which is that it's alright - a "good enough" release - but no where in quality where it really should be. The graphics of the game and sound are a particular poor side of the game, with sound not getting an update in over a decade (it actually got worse would you believe with sounds being dropped after CM3). The graphics are much better compared to that past games, but compared to games like FIFA or even 95% of games, FM graphics are quite laughable.

Yes, because graphics and fluff isn't what FM is about. It's a simulator and it simulates football 1000x better than FIFA or Pro Evo does.

I think there is a big group of people who don't dislike FM2014, but feel it could be better. Then there's a big chunk to think it's the best thing since sliced bread. The same goes for FMC, which I think is a waste of time and things like this slow down production of the game. SI could have simply just allowed people to deselect things they didn't want and totally remove it from that particular save - rather than make complete new modes. Also the microtransactions already created some moans, but it does look like SI are looking at probably testing a new business model (hopefully).

I'm pretty sure SI hired a lot of extra people to get involved with FMC, so it isn't taking away development time from the "main" game. You can also only put so many people on a certain task.

Micro-transactions are there if you want it. I've never dealt with it at all, so it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I'm not even sure where you go if you want to buy something or even what you can buy. That's how little it has affected my game time. I would have had an issue if there were certain parts of the normal gameplay that I couldn't access/play because of micro-transaction, but it is a route that SI hasn't taken and I don't see them ever doing so.

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Also the microtransactions already created some moans, but it does look like SI are looking at probably testing a new business model (hopefully).

I shudder to think what business model you're hoping for them to bring in where microtransactions are concerned...

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/.../don't see what's so wrong with the bolded part - if you get your tactics wrong, you absolutely should be penalised. The game has only really just caught up with that. If it was just a matter of getting the best players, and only that, then what would be the point in the rest of the game? No prospect of giant-killings, the same teams winning every year...gee, exciting.

Nowhere did I state that tactics are irrelevant, nor did I state that only buying great players should suffice. My point was that the balance tactic vs. great player seems to be too much shifted towards the importance of tactics. I'm simply requiring a better balance.

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Im so in agreement with the OP on his points

When my team is in good form, I can beat anyone while keeping to my standard tactics and only altering slightly for the opposition, but being in bad form I have found that no matter what I do with tactics my team will play poorly in relation to their normal quality. Now I realise that form is relevant and it will obviously affect the ability of your players and results, but in my mind it really does seem to have far too much influence on your teams play and can at times seem to override good tactic changes which surely shouldn't be the case in real life, now I never played last years version of the game but Im sure I don't remember any of the other versions being so morale biased as this version, I think it's just gone too far and excessive care to press & player morale just isn't much fun in my opinion, tactics and getting them right is much more fun

Also regarding the other comments about the actual forum, totally agree, I see it all the time, posters asking questions or offering criticisms about the workings of the game often get put down instantly and I think most are automatically thought of as the 'the game is rubbish, my tactics don't work, I can't win' type of poster

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I shudder to think what business model you're hoping for them to bring in where microtransactions are concerned...
Free to play model with online play sounds fun. Ha Ha. I do miss FM Live to be honest. :D

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Yes, because graphics and fluff isn't what FM is about. It's a simulator and it simulates football 1000x better than FIFA or Pro Evo does.

That's not the point. It is that mentality that leaves FM behind in many aspects. Why is it that it is a simulator, that it can't have cutting edge graphics or sound? Why is it that so many extra people are hired to make a totally different mode to the same game, when the same could be done for sound and graphics?

Football is a passionate game, with fantastic visuals and sounds from different cultures. A simulator doesn't mean that we all just watch 2D circles running around. It doesn't mean graphics should look so outdated, they seem from the late 90's early 00's?

The rest I mentioned, was just my general consensus of how people perceive FM2014, not my direct opinion - but what I have gathered reading the forums lately. You really don't need to seem so defensive.

We all love FM, which is why a lot of us post so passionately about it. My only gripe is that of what many others have posted here...parts of the game not advancing or stagnating over the years, while the important aspects of football are considered not important.

To me, having good graphics and sounds, and I mean good - not great, is part of simulating football. Where are the cross overs, bicycle kicks , flares, streakers, banners, flags etc etc?? - it might be in the game, but you rarely see any of it.

At the moment, all I see are pudgy 3D characters, who moon walk rather than run and diddle daddle around the ball instead of appearing decisive. The same can be said of the sounds. You go to any football match and you feel the atmosphere, you hear the drums, the trumpets, the chants. Why is this not simulated in FM? I will tell you why.

FM is a game that many people play alt-tabbed. The lazy FM gamer who just wants to see the scores and hammer through season after season - dredging for regens to win trophies, playing the game in 2D on 1000X speed. FM gamers are very passive - and I experienced this first hand through experiences with friends, other players during my time with FM Live and also from reading many forum posts over the years.

SI feel that because many people play with sound off, in 2D and usually alt tabbed while probably playing FIFA or watching youtube videos, that graphics and sound don't warrant massive investment. Seeing that FM is a top 5 game on steam, the funds are there to pump money into graphics and sound, yet as you stated - it gets spent on making a version of the game that caters to the lazy FM gamer - who as stated, plays with no sound and alt tabbed.

To me, FM doesn't simulate football well, even if it's 1000X better than any competitor, it is still 1000X off the mark and could be better. A good start would be to start investing in better animations and for god sakes, an update to sounds which haven't been touched for over a decade. As a lover of football and a fan of being in a crowd on weekends cheering my team - a part of me feels frustrated when I see new modes getting released, while those funds could be spent making major parts of the game better.

Anyway, don't get me wrong - I am not being negative. I just wish SI would think outside the box, and add some flair into the series.

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SI feel that because many people play with sound off, in 2D and usually alt tabbed while probably playing FIFA or watching youtube videos, that it doesn't warrant massive investment. Seeing that FM is a top 5 game on steam, the funds are there to pump money into graphics and sound, yet as you stated - it gets spent on making a version of the game that caters to the lazy FM gamer - who as stated, plays with no sound and alt tabbed.

FMC seems to have this reputation for being the "noob" mode or lazy gamer mode. It still has the same ME as the full fat game. It's still pretty much the same game, in fact. Some people can't be bothered with doing team talks (and I think training is also streamlined?) so that is what that game is for. It cuts the extra bits out. It doesn't make the players who uses that mode "lazy". It just cuts some of the things that they don't have an interest in, out of the game.

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The day FM requires me to have a top end graphics card in order to play it will be the day i walk away. Part of the charm of FM is it doesnt require a great rig to run it, with FM being one of the few PC games i now play i would not consider investing in a top end machine for it, i know im not alone in this.

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The day FM requires me to have a top end graphics card in order to play it will be the day i walk away. Part of the charm of FM is it doesnt require a great rig to run it, with FM being one of the few PC games i now play i would not consider investing in a top end machine for it, i know im not alone in this.

I agree with this.

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I must say I totally agree with you Sydney666 but I also think that what milnerpoint just pointed out is also a big factor to take into account.

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Well you clearly stated that more investment was made into that part of the game, by hiring more people to create the mode. Why not just keep one game mode, and just allow parts of the game to be completely hidden. I think FMC is just a gimmick to appease the social media and lazy gamer crowd. I still think those resources could be better spent on hiring staff to work on adding specific sounds to every type of culture and hiring some more people to work on animations, especially using correct player body models. EA Sports have a complete facility to actually scan real movements of a player. I know this kind of stuff costs a lot of money - which EA have in abundance, but as you also made out, all their money is wasted on a clueless AI/Match Engine and poor managing modes.

While I don't expect SI to use that kind of advanced technology - funds could be used to really bring FM to the "next gen" level in a year or two if they really wanted.

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The day FM requires me to have a top end graphics card in order to play it will be the day i walk away. Part of the charm of FM is it doesnt require a great rig to run it, with FM being one of the few PC games i now play i would not consider investing in a top end machine for it, i know im not alone in this.
Like most games, you could just turn off certain facets of the game to run it. I am not asking for FIFA style graphics and high level textures. I am pin pointing sounds in particular which don't lag a game, and player animations and models being more true to life. The ice skating, moon walking players have been there since the 3D mode came into existence. I remember Marc Vaughn (I think that was his name) promised that a 3D mode would never be released until he was happy that it looked "true to life" and was a correct representation of football. The same he said, would be for regens hair and aging face models. I am sure someone can pinpoint his post said many years ago.

Yet SI have gone against this - and continue to release a poor 3D rendition of their representation of football. The sad thing is that their very complex match engine, which is a work of art and a machine 20 years in the making, is made to look sloppy and rushed.

Do you see my point here? I know the match engine of FM2014 is fantastic, even if it's not perfect - but the 3D graphics doesn't do it justice and it is why I feel it should become their focus. Sounds + animations.

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Well you clearly stated that more investment was made into that part of the game, by hiring more people to create the mode. Why not just keep one game, and just allow parts of the game to be completely hidden. I think FMC is just a gimmick to appease the social media and lazy gamer crowd. I still think those resources could be better spent on hiring staff to work on adding specific sounds to every type of culture and hiring some more people to work on animations, especially using correct player body models. EA Sports have a complete facility to actually scan real movements of a player. I know this kind of stuff costs a lot of money - which EA have in abundance, but as you also made out, all their money is wasted on a clueless AI/Match Engine and poor managing modes.

While I don't expect SI to use that kind of advanced technology - funds could be used to really bring FM to the "next gen" level in a year or two if they really wanted.

Many FM gamers' PC and Laptops just barely clear the minimum requirements. I can't see them wanting to alienate all those people by suddenly bumping up the hardware requirements. You can turn off parts of the graphics, but it still would mean an increase in minimum specs.

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Well you clearly stated that more investment was made into that part of the game, by hiring more people to create the mode. Why not just keep one game mode, and just allow parts of the game to be completely hidden. I think FMC is just a gimmick to appease the social media and lazy gamer crowd. I still think those resources could be better spent on hiring staff to work on adding specific sounds to every type of culture and hiring some more people to work on animations, especially using correct player body models. EA Sports have a complete facility to actually scan real movements of a player. I know this kind of stuff costs a lot of money - which EA have in abundance, but as you also made out, all their money is wasted on a clueless AI/Match Engine and poor managing modes.

While I don't expect SI to use that kind of advanced technology - funds could be used to really bring FM to the "next gen" level in a year or two if they really wanted.

FMC isn't my cup of tea, but its very silly, and well wide of the mark to claim its a gimmick to appease social media and the lazy gamer crowd. Incredibly wide of the mark actually.

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Do the creators actually with-hold from making parts of the game more complex to keep requirements down?

Im not talking of graphics but for example something like player development which is something I would love to see in more depth

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Like I said, better animations doesn't mean the need for huge computers. I am not asking for cutting edge graphics or high end textures, but player models that don't ice skate or moon walk around the pitch would be a start. I feel embarrassed showing people FM when the players animations play like they do. This is meant to be the best management game out there, yet SI went against their own claims of not wanting to release a 3D rendition of the game if it wasn't true to life. How they can be happy with it boggles my mind. As stated, the graphics and animations of the game don't do the match engine justice.

Sounds also won't cause a high bump for hardware requirements. As it stands, the amount of data and processing in FM is enough to bring most pc's to their knees, and extra animations won't cause people to be alienated.

No offence Hunt3r, I do feel as though you are overly defensive and protective of the game. While I appreciate your dedication and love for the game, sometimes tough love is needed. If you really think the animations and sounds are fine and there game is hunky dory, then you really gotta rethink your evaluation of the game.

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Like I said, better animations doesn't mean the need for huge computers. I am not asking for cutting edge graphics or high end textures, but player models that don't ice skate or moon walk around the pitch. Sounds also won't cause a high bump for hardware requirements. As it stands, the amount of data and processing in FM is enough to bring most pc's to their knees, and extra animations won't cause people to be alienated.

No offence Hunt3r, I do feel as though you are overly defensive and protective of the game. While I appreciate your dedication and love for the game, sometimes tough love is needed. If you really think the animations and sounds are fine and there game is hunky dory, then you really gotta rethink your evaluation of the game.

Putting my mod hat on here: No need for the patronising tone, or the dismissive attitude because his view is different from yours.

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Do the creators actually with-hold from making parts of the game more complex to keep requirements down?

Im not talking of graphics but for example something like player development which is something I would love to see in more depth

I honestly have no idea, but I very much doubt it when it comes to player development and ME etc etc

Processors are quite capable in even the more basic laptops, but their graphics cards aren't always up to scratch. That's why, in my opinion anyway, there isn't a focus on making "FIFA graphics". That and it really isn't needed, although it would be nice!

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FMC isn't my cup of tea, but its very silly, and well wide of the mark to claim its a gimmick to appease social media and the lazy gamer crowd. Incredibly wide of the mark actually.
As far as I can see, it's my personal opinion that all the mode is for is to make people run it on tablets and phones and play through a lot of seasons really fast and without a lot of the guts of the full mode. It could have been easily made part of the full game and just allowed people to deselect things they didn't like, such as the same way we select/deselect leagues.

I don't think my opinion is silly, and you as a moderator should probably not belittle someones opinion as being silly? To me that seems kind of bordering on a personal dig at an idea of mine. While I don't want to argue, I still feel FMC is just that - a gimmick to get more sales out of FM - and to allow people to play it basically everywhere. It is probably a good gimmick and a smart business idea - but for the sake of the game - funds would have been better spent elsewhere. Maybe the funds they will generate from more sales of FM, they can bump it into things that matter. Animations and sound. Just my personal wish I guess. :D

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Putting my mod hat on here: No need for the patronising tone, or the dismissive attitude because his view is different from yours.
I wasn't patronizing anyone, I was just pointing out my view that he was being defensive - as a lot of people are when questioned about the game taking a new direction. It is a problem I noticed from a lot of people who play FM and it's probably why SI have stalled so much on many facets of the game. The fear to disrupt the fanbase.

You on the other hand called my ideas silly, which is probably wasn't warranted either. :p

Anyway, I am too old to argue with people. I am happy to agree to disagree. :D

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I honestly have no idea, but I very much doubt it when it comes to player development and ME etc etc

Processors are quite capable in even the more basic laptops, but their graphics cards aren't always up to scratch. That's why, in my opinion anyway, there isn't a focus on making "FIFA graphics". That and it really isn't needed, although it would be nice!

Given that FM players are usually 3-4 years behind the average gamer in terms of hardware, you could probably start to push it in a couple of years, as the base level of an average/budget priced computer improves. That said I'm playing on a system that was discontinued in 2009. Given the broadness of the systems one can use is part of the appeal, not sure how much you want to step it up.

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Didn't want to bring this up again but just to be clear? So for Gripper to use a similar tone to me is absolutely acceptable but what Sydney just pointed out is patronizing? Come on this is the kind of censorship I don't like seeing around here. It's like I can't even say what I think without having an infraction over my head. Please enlighten me on this

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I honestly have no idea, but I very much doubt it when it comes to player development and ME etc etc

Processors are quite capable in even the more basic laptops, but their graphics cards aren't always up to scratch. That's why, in my opinion anyway, there isn't a focus on making "FIFA graphics". That and it really isn't needed, although it would be nice!

Well I certainly am not asking for FIFA graphics - and to be honest I really hate the generic FIFA faces! However all I ask is for some match atmosphere, improved sounds and the complete eradication of ice skating moon walking players! :D Better animations will not slow down the game immensely, if any.

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Didn't want to bring this up again but just to be clear? So for Gripper to use a similar tone to me is absolutely acceptable but what Sydney just pointed out is patronizing? Come on this is the kind of censorship I don't like seeing around here. It's like I can't even say what I think without having an infraction over my head. Please enlighten me on this

I have pointed this out, but if there's any problem with anyone's posts, please report it. Even if it's a mod's posts. It'll get reviewed by all the mods and action will be taken, if deemed necessary.

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Didn't want to bring this up again but just to be clear? So for Gripper to use a similar tone to me is absolutely acceptable but what Sydney just pointed out is patronizing? Come on this is the kind of censorship I don't like seeing around here. It's like I can't even say what I think without having an infraction over my head. Please enlighten me on this
Mate don't worry about it, just move on. Humans always disagree when it comes to discussions, just don't take it personally. Smile, take a breather, sip a cup of coffee and just enjoy the forum posting.

I quite enjoy seeing everyone's opinions, even though I might sound patronising, I surely didn't mean to be rude. I just feel that every game release it's the same few issues that stop me playing past 4-5 seasons of FM. It's just that small portion of the game that griefs me, that I wish SI would finally just put some effort into and turn a good game into a masterpiece. Sometimes I just feel frustrated that no one here seems to feel that it's worth doing. Baffles me, actually. It doesn't stop me however, of buying the game each year to support the genre and SI in any way possible. Just doing my bit - in hope that one day I will play a new FM that blows me away. At the moment I just roll my eyes when I see players sliding around - it's cringe worthy.

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I agree with Sydney and not being a programmer at all, will his changes affect the specs on such a high level that a large number of players won't be able to play it anymore? What are the solutions if not? because the ME will need improving over the years and that is a fact.

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I have pointed this out, but if there's any problem with anyone's posts, please report it. Even if it's a mod's posts. It'll get reviewed by all the mods and action will be taken, if deemed necessary.

No no I'm fine, I just wanted to know thanks

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I see where the OP is coming from, and the nostalgic part of me would love to wholeheartedly agree with him...

However I can't deny recent FM versions make the good ol' CM look like as old and outdated as it is... I'll be honest: while with the current ME and tactical setup it's very often a frustrating matter of taking shots in the dark in order to "fix" whatever is wrong with the tactic and an equally annoyingly boring job of babysitting the players through an endless string of repetitive PR chores, at least NOW we have some (dull) tools to deal with it.

In CM97-98 (the one I played and loved the most back then), all I could do was choosing among THREE playing styles and moving players around the pitch with absolutely no visual feedback expect the result or the stats.

So, good luck finding out why suddenly the patented 4-3-3 direct isn't producing chances...

Sure, there's no denying current FM can feel as demanding as an actual job and just as much frustrating, but for all its shortcomings (horrible AI squad building, questionable transfers model, the aforementioned tactical and morale issues), I just know I wouldn't leave the worst FM for the best CM now.

P.S. FMC could be a good idea, but what about key factors we can't really manage in that mode? (ie. morale)

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I agree with Sydney and not being a programmer at all, will his changes affect the specs on such a high level that a large number of players won't be able to play it anymore? What are the solutions if not? because the ME will need improving over the years and that is a fact.

The last thing we need is the "consolification" of FM series.

Game devs around the world are not keeping up with pc technology advances, because people are using older "console" like systems or games are being designed to run firstly on 10-15 year old consoles, before being ported to the pc. It is sad to see people streamlining their games, just to cater for more people on lower end spec computers, consoles and now even phones and tablets. It worries me that FM is getting streamlined so it can run on tablets and the next gen consoles, only to get stuck on old hardware for the next 15 years.

I really doubt better animations and some cut scenes will slow the game down. The game as it is, looks like a game from the mid 90's! The only thing I think would slow down the match engine, would be things like smoke effects or fog effects coming from the crowd.

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I agree with Sydney and not being a programmer at all, will his changes affect the specs on such a high level that a large number of players won't be able to play it anymore? What are the solutions if not? because the ME will need improving over the years and that is a fact.

The ME will be improved. The ME is very processor intensive and as I said, even the basic laptops have fairly capable processors. So we'll almost certainly see ME improvements. Syncing animations to the ME is also mostly about processing power. Even animations can be added, because the graphical level will still be the same.

No no I'm fine, I just wanted to know thanks

No problem. :thup:

I just wanted to make it clear to everyone, not just you.

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I really doubt better animations and some cut scenes will slow the game down. The game as it is, looks like a game from the mid 90's!

I took a look at the minimum specs for FM 2014 and compared them to some of the older FIFA games. The spec for FIFA 98/99 is a joke compared to FM 2014 - the graphics are anything but.

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The ME will be improved. The ME is very processor intensive and as I said, even the basic laptops have fairly capable processors. So we'll almost certainly see ME improvements. Syncing animations to the ME is also mostly about processing power. Even animations can be added, because the graphical level will still be the same.
To be honest, I like the graphics as they are now in FM. Also, I really dislike FIFA graphics, especially when you get ugly close ups of generic clone faces or you see a player whom you know, and has the incorrect face. I don't want FIFA graphics, it would disgust me.

What I adamantly dislike in FM, is the execution of the player models, their movements, reactions and animations. As stated, the models make the match engine look cheap and rushed - when we know it's anything but.

Some of the stadiums could use slightly better resolution textures, and then that would be fine. The other thing that needs to be added are player hair styles, and possibly even have different styles of body movements and styles. Finally sounds.

Anyway, I feel like I am repeating myself - so I will cease posting about this. Ha! :D

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It's about immersion. In the old CM games, when you just had commentary the visuals played in your head and you took the commentary at its word on what was going on. If the commentary said 'Striker missed a sitter' you just accepted it. With 2D, you had some visual information about the play - the realism of player movement around the pitch became important. With 3D the bar was raised again - now it's not good enough for the player to simply be in the right place in the pitch the individual player actions have to convince.

FM does get more realistic year on year, but since adopting 3D the ME's presentation of the game has not progressed fast enough in relation to the rest of the game world. We know how real it is possible for this to be and whilst FM fans are far more interested in squad building and team development across the seasons than individual matches, those matches do matter and the match day experience should be as immersive as possible. Unfortunately for SI, that means they are going to have to raise the bar on graphics and sound.

I think part of the problem is that there was a point where they should have gone back to square one and rethought what an FM for the 21st century should look like - instead they've tried to evolve the old game from the 90s. The result is that FM is beginning to feel like a Nokia 3310 in a world full of iPhones.

The mood of the forums this year suggests a lot of dissatisfaction in lots of different areas. For each individual they may be in "I can live with it" mode this year, but the signs are there and many people seem to be close to walking away.

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I agree with your point about immersion to an extent. You're quite right in saying with the simple commentary and even the 2D you could play the actual player movements out in your head and there was no reason to doubt the legitimacy of it. I've zero doubt the move to 3D has prompted increased negativity from some as the perceived flaws are now visually clear whereas before they were largely masked. In a strange way, SI's visual progression of the game has been their undoing, certainly in terms of customer feedback. Quite simply they have a superb football management bunch of algorithms that they can't quite match when giving a visual representation.

That said, all this celebration of older versions is a lot of nostalgia fuelled nonsense IMO. I recall adoring CMM 00/01 and when I actually went back to it a couple of years ago, with Rebrov giving me 60 goals a season and basically my team crushing all before me with ease, I realised how far it has come in terms of realism. It was great fun at the time though but then I was but a teen and consoles couldn't come near a Pentium III in number crunching.

Yes, things have moved on. Many older gamers will have been lost to family life and newer ones will have come onboard, increasingly used to the quite wonderful graphics top console titles can produce these days. I can't help but think it's many of these younger gamers that are the most vocal in their concerns with FM14. I've no wish to go into increasing impatience and a desire for 'I win' buttons that seem so prevalent with a lot of gamers these days - it's a viper pit of ageism so I'll just say, I think some of the negativity is due to that.

Much is also down to the ME simply not being capable of representing a fluid, modern football game, based on the piece of genius that is the algorithms that determine everything. If FM was a car, it would be the fastest and most reliable one in your street but it wouldn't come close to being the most modern looking.

Should they have gone back to square one and rebuilt it for the 21st century as you say? If you were them would you? SI have by far the best product on the market in its area and it's been a great success both critically and commercially on a consistent basis. Sales and reviews alone have dictated the old 'If it ain't broke...don't fix it' cliche....though SI have simply slowly evolved their baby. I think any company in their position would have done the same.

FM14 isn't a Nokia 3310 in a world of iPhones. That's unfair, they've defeated all their rivals thus far. A better analogy is that it's an aging football team, laden with trophies over the years that's still the best but is going to need an overhaul sooner or later before the others catch up. They've seen and done it all, still play 4-4-2 and still win. You just know it won't last forever though.

I firmly believe FM14 is the best yet but I think more demands are being put on them from a new generation simply wanting more. I also think the ME as a visual representation is lagging behind the solid coding of the game and it's actually having to often show strange situations to fulfill the scoreline the algorithms demand.

It's still a magnificent game however and there's no immediate sign of another product taking their crown soon. All the negativity and "people being close to walking away"? To where exactly? It's still easily the best and I think you know that.

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As far as I can see, it's my personal opinion that all the mode is for is to make people run it on tablets and phones

You can't run FMC on any phone or tablet.

So, it's not a 'gimmick' to make people play it on the go, is it?

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I can't get in to any version past FM09 because of the route/focus the game development went down - many of which reasons were similar to the OP.

I fully understand why they did it, I was vocal enough about my opinion on it at the time. But ultimately I either had to get on board with the new versions and the aim of the game, or find an alternative.

So I'm now up to about 6,000 hours of played time on FM09.

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Man this thread is plummeting fast, not sure how we went from the OP's post to the graphics not being good enough. <shrug>

On topic I think there is definitely a place for FMC, like TMS said it is not my cup of tea, though I could see why some players may take to it, for me it just waters it down just too much.

It would have been nice to be a fly on the wall at SI when they came up with the ideas to have the media and then the player morale added, I wonder if there was anything else on the table as in which direction the game should take.

I understand SI have to add some new things so they keep it a bit fresh, I also wonder what Miles and the team behind both these things make of it now, I wonder if they had to do it over again would they think of a different route, I can't imagine they are overly happy with the media side as it has never been very good, though having said that they still persist with it.

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I can't get in to any version past FM09 because of the route/focus the game development went down - many of which reasons were similar to the OP.

I fully understand why they did it, I was vocal enough about my opinion on it at the time. But ultimately I either had to get on board with the new versions and the aim of the game, or find an alternative.

So I'm now up to about 6,000 hours of played time on FM09.

I get where you are coming from CP, I did enjoy FM12 though, after 12 I would say FM09 is my next favourite, I have been playing in my head just to go back to either 12 or 9 and just set up camp.

I am not angry or pissed off about any of it.

FM14 is my lowest hours played to date, even then I have over 200 hours and being as I play a lot of PC games there are not many that will keep me playing that long, I enjoyed my save pre-Christmas update the most.

I have pretty much accepted that the route FM is going is most likely not one I will enjoy, it's been a good ride though. :)

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I can't get in to any version past FM09 because of the route/focus the game development went down - many of which reasons were similar to the OP.

I fully understand why they did it, I was vocal enough about my opinion on it at the time. But ultimately I either had to get on board with the new versions and the aim of the game, or find an alternative.

So I'm now up to about 6,000 hours of played time on FM09.

Any reason why specifically FM09? What made you not upgrade to FM10? I can't remember that far back! :)

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I, for one, don't appreciate being called "lazy", "casual", or any other number of adjectives for preferring FMC. You could actually argue FMC is more of a challenge because you don't have control over individual training, PPMs, morale, or in depth tactical analyses of matches.

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Any reason why specifically FM09? What made you not upgrade to FM10? I can't remember that far back! :)

FM09 was the start of the press conference train and focus as well, although easily ignored by setting assistant to it, and the beginning of 3D match engine and all of its widgets and camera angles etc.

After that the features and development time were focussed on areas of the game that just didn't really interest me. Graphics aren't important, I'll always play in 2D top down view, media and moral development just isn't fun to me, even if it's "realistic". I then hated the changes to the tactics and introduction of touchline shouts.

Biggest off putting things for newer versions though, was the quality of the match engine and game as a whole when the demos came out, and the user interface changes - which for the life of me I still cannot understand.

FM09 is far from perfect, but it is solid. And the versions after just didn't offer enough, or sell themselves well enough to make me invest the time or money in to them.

FMC is a step backwards on too many features, with the trade off that it has an updated match engine and database. The full version is too ugly to use and has a focus on areas of the "simulation experience" that just aren't fun to me.

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FM09 was the start of the press conference train and focus as well, although easily ignored by setting assistant to it, and the beginning of 3D match engine and all of its widgets and camera angles etc.

After that the features and development time were focussed on areas of the game that just didn't really interest me. Graphics aren't important, I'll always play in 2D top down view, media and moral development just isn't fun to me, even if it's "realistic". I then hated the changes to the tactics and introduction of touchline shouts.

Biggest off putting things for newer versions though, was the quality of the match engine and game as a whole when the demos came out, and the user interface changes - which for the life of me I still cannot understand.

FM09 is far from perfect, but it is solid. And the versions after just didn't offer enough, or sell themselves well enough to make me invest the time or money in to them.

So even FMC doesn't interest you because of the changes to the tactical system and the touchline shouts?

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So even FMC doesn't interest you because of the changes to the tactical system and the touchline shouts?

Made a little ninja edit above.

FMC has too many of the "basics" removed, with too little trade off to justify moving on from the full version of 09.

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the user interface changes - which for the life of me I still cannot understand.

You are on fire CP.

This has always been a pain in the ass for me, every year it gets more cluttered, it takes more clicks to get to what you want done, hell for some reason they feel the need to even move where the 'save game' is in the drop down list, its at the bottom, then its half way down.

It just seems to get more cluttered every year.

I know they add it by saying "you now have more choices and more information".

Most gamers just want a clean UI and if they want to view the other things they will find it in drop down menus.

It seems they change it just for change sake and no other reason.

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I tried CM 01/02 a year or two ago and although it was great seeing all the names I had become so used to, I was left frustrated at the simplicity and lack of control. I still wanted to try a newer FM/CM with the 2D engine, like FM2005, but never got round to it.

Made a little ninja edit above.

FMC has too many of the "basics" removed, with too little trade off to justify moving on from the full version of 09.

The ME alone would be the motivation for me to upgrade to the newer version. It just sounded like you were describing FMC earlier when you mentioned you don't like the media side of things, training etc.

For someone who has 6000 hours under the belt with sliders, I'm sure that the new tactical interface would be quite a change. Once you understand it, imo, it's a lot simpler than understanding sliders.

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I like training, I like in depth tactics - those are two areas that should be in more detail, not simplified. Along with purchasing players and AI squad building ability to provide an extended challenge.

I would pay for a new match engine (providing it was good enough improved quality) and/or database if it could be imported in to the FM09 shell.

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I tried CM 01/02 a year or two ago and although it was great seeing all the names I had become so used to, I was left frustrated at the simplicity and lack of control. I still wanted to try a newer FM/CM with the 2D engine, like FM2005, but never got round to it.

The ME alone would be the motivation for me to upgrade to the newer version. It just sounded like you were describing FMC earlier when you mentioned you don't like the media side of things, training etc.

For someone who has 6000 hours under the belt with sliders, I'm sure that the new tactical interface would be quite a change. Once you understand it, imo, it's a lot simpler than understanding sliders.

The problem is not the new tactics it is the mind numbing media and the feeling you are a Sunday football mum and you have been put in charge of your kids under 10s team when dealing with the morale.

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The problem is not the new tactics it is the mind numbing media and the feeling you are a Sunday football mum and you have been put in charge of your kids under 10s team when dealing with the morale.

To me the media/morale side of things is incredibly easy to manage. I guess that's why there's the option of FMC though!

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I agree with the earlier comments about the repetitiveness of press conferences. At the same time, I always do them and team talks as my ass man has a tendency to bugger things up!

In terms of the game as a whole, I went through a phase for a couple of years of not enjoying it, but I put that down to my age and lack of time to dedicate to the game. This might sound wrong, but I actually preferred it when players had less attributes as well, everything just started getting a bit too indepth for me. It got to the point it could take me two or three days to finish preseason and properly decide on which players to buy and I very rarely finished a season without wanting to start again as I wasn't happy with an earlier choice!

The one thing that has changed for me though, and why I keep on playing it and enjoy it again, is how I play the game. For me, a lot of people see it as a computer game and so play like there is a right or wrong answer to everything. To that end, they become obsessed with the killer tactic or the right team talk or the exact right set of attributes and can't comprehend how they can lose certain games or go on a run of poor results. As they view it as a computer game, they go to lengths like repeating games to see what combination of team talk/tactic/player choice will work. When what they change to then doesn't work after a couple of games, that is when you get posts like the ones on this forum raging at the game and videos like an upload of a random cross with the query "how on earth can someone with jumping 12 against someone with jumping 14 win that header?!"

Simply put, it is because the best header or jumper doesn't win the header every single time, if this game did have right and wrong answers to everything, then it would be a rubbish football simulation in all honesty and ridiculously easy to win every game as it would purely be a logical decision for the gamer to take every time.

What I do nowadays instead is really what I imagine SI want everyone to do, and that is to stop thinking like you are playing a computer game and instead think like you are a football manager. In that world, I don't get annoyed at SI when my player gets outjumped, I get annoyed at my player for not putting enough effort in. If I go on a poor run of form, I think how can I go about fixing this, is it down to just a morale issue, or is it a fundamental tactical flaw I have in some part of my setup? Is there a player that really isn't performing for me for some reason, is that a tactical issue or is he just not settling into the team? All of those questions are ones that affect every club in every division and as I assume the vast majority of people that play this game are football fans themselves, I'm sure they can equate some of those queries to their own club and players at times.

It's a very difficult thing for SI to do, to get that balance right, but I genuinely believe most of the posts on this forum from people with gripes (and I'm not referring to the OP here, just a general point), is because people are playing it like a game and getting annoyed that they can't work out what the right or wrong answer is. The truth, in my opinion, is that there isn't a definitive one either way, there are a multitude of ways to play successfully and there is a multitude of ways of buggering things up. For that, SI deserve massive credit for me, as they have got the simulation of Football Management spot on in that regard.

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