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johnsmith

Pointers needed - Bold Chile/Sampaoli potpuri.

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Hello,

I've tried to create a tactic based on Jorge Sampaoli's Chile, a bold 2-7-1. Playing with Racing Club de Avellaneda in Argentina,

a team which has given me quite a lot of success in the previous versions of FM with various tactics. When I began I made a tactic based

on Cleon's 4-5-1 and had pretty decent success with by winning few titles and both Sudamericana and Libertadores.

My main goal however has always been to try and create a tactic that kinda resembles Sampaoli and Bielsa and coming across this:

Chile4-3-3_original.jpg?1387464000

So I decided to base my shape on it, but with forward line not scoring frequently enough I changed the trident to include a SS and AP befind a DF.

I've taken quite few pointers from various threads around here and the tactics is working to some extend, but there are still quite few problems

with it. So I'd like some feedback of what I might be doing wrong and what kinda stuff should I consider trying?

Here's the tactics, so you might get ideas already of what might be my problems with it.

VS weaker opponent

sampaolivsweak.jpg

VS stronger opponent

Sampaolivsstrong.jpg

Player instructions:

GK - play shorter, ditribute to defenders

HB - fewer risky passes

DWr - fewer risky passes, cross from deep

DWl - fewer risky passes, cross from deep

CM's - shoot less often

OK, here are some observations and problems I've encountered and which might explain some of the player instructions I've chosen:

1. Goalkeeper tends to hit it long all the time, even with instructions. I think within a season that I've played with this tactic only in 1 game has

the goalie actually got over 90% of his passes to my own team, which should be a basic rule of tactic. Is the shout Pass into Space having an effect on this?

I've also tried a Ball playing defender in defence, but it seems that there's not much difference of the tactic working defensively

nor does it help with the goalkeeper problem.

2. The main problem of conceding goals have been crosses that are played over the 2 central defenders to the inside cutting winger/striker of the opposite flank.

Other variation is that the cross is flicked back by the free man behind the 2 defenders to other striker who puts it into an empty net.

I've toyed with the idea of using wingbacks instead of DW's but somehow I'm obsessed that the DW's should work as wingbacks in the end and nullify the problem.

Though maybe I should pay more attention to the spare man rule used by Bielsa. It might be a solution to actually drop the DW's to fullback positions against

certain shapes and opponents.

4. DWS run down the line and get easily isolated with no support when they get to byline, with fewer risky passes i've got them to play simpler and got

higher rating of successful passes, but still the problem occurs way too much. I'd like the CM's and attackers to provide support,

a man unmarked to pass the ball to. I've tried Box to Box midfielders as CM's but seems that the CM's work better and help me to keep the shape together.

However I've recently changed the other CM to to BWMs and got decent ratings from that position also, but still they CM's should work better.

5. Scoring goals can be very hard sometimes, as I've not figured what is the best combinations of roles for the tridente.

I've tried various variations to get the players moving around effectively, but with only little success. It seems that the DFs scores most.

Sampaoli bases attack around the Attacking midfielder Jorge Valdivia, who acts like a false nine/ten me thinks.

Sanchez and Vargas play more wider and cut inside, but are not actual inside forwards nor wingers, so this is what I'm trying to create.

I've tried Trequartista and AP in the AM position.

Advanced forward, False nine and Complete forward support as attackers, because I think these roles resemble the types of forwards Sampaoli uses,

but they just don't work together as well as they should. The current setup of SSa, APa and DFs has given me a new dimension to my attacking and all the

players have been scoring regularly, still not as consistently as I would like.

6. The Halfback role. The player there moves back to being the 3rd defender, but throughoutly plays poorly. This player should be my Marcelo Diaz,

who controls the game from deep midfield and is solid defensively. I've tried a DPd there, but seems that then the defence is even more open.

I don't concede loads of goals, but the ones I concede are usually crucial if I'm not able to score at the other end.

But yes there has been few 4-4 and 3-3's within my results also.

Also I'm not quite sure how the player movement goes with support, attack and defend roles. I've tried using attack role with the CM roles and

support with DW's. Defensively the DWd sounds more solid to me as I've seen my left winger leave his man unmarked plenty of times.

Also with the attack role the CM and the players ahead of him seem to occupy the same space, which is not encouraged.

Though I bet by looking at the average positions headmap with my tactics that this still occurs with certain players with these duties.

I bet there are plenty of things you guys would do differently, so please do share your opinions!

Help really appreciated, thanks!

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Sampaoli's one of my best coaches. What he does with that Chile side when he spends such little time with them is amazing.

Without going into great detail, the 2 essential things your team need to do if you're a Bielsista: Play as high up the pitch as possible & press/close down opponents like bulldogs on crack. If ball's recovered high up the pitch, immediately attempt to penetrate opponents unorganised defence; if not on, keep the ball.

You've got it wrong by having only "Push Higher Up" in your first picture & "Drop Deeper" in your second. That's completely against the Bielsa way. You just need to go all out & pick "Much Higher Defensive Line", "Hassle Opponents". Possibly "Stay On Feet" as well so your players aren't diving into challenges. I'll just put up some videos.

Here's Bielsa's Chile pressing Spain:

[video=youtube;eTKiMGYN9eQ]

Bielsa's Athletic Bilbao pressing/man-marking Barca:

[video=youtube;AVC7Tfzo6r8]

[video=youtube;F00EeVsyNo0]

Sampaoli's Chile:

[video=youtube;sIWfx39a8s0]

[video=youtube;ThR-3-ZTvMw]

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Thanks for the videos and feedback.

So far I've tried not to use the much higher defensive line due to the fact that the wingplay has not worked as well as I would have liked. Most of the goals against me come from either wing due to myDW being too high up to catch up his opponent and the CB not moving to cover him.

I actually tried the Much higher def. line just now in a game against Independiente with 3-2 win. Their second goal was a 4 against 2. :)

My own 2nd goal however was a great example of the tighter marking and much higher def.line as my forward harassed ball from their last defender and scored.

I've also made changes to the shape and roles again, changed the trident back to AP, DF and CF, but instead of using attack duties I now set them all to support and so far that seems to be working a treat, at least the 2 forwards are scoring and getting good ratings in off-season games and both scored against Independiente, which was Copa Argentina game.

Also I changed the BWM to BBM again, to see if it work better with an APs.

sampaoli3.jpg

The instructions you are not seeing are the Much higher def.line and tight marking.

The second tactic on my 1st post was for a backup tactic, to be a bit more conservative against stronger teams, however as the 1st tactic wasnt always working against weaker, had to use it a lot against the weaker teams as well sometimes.

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I personally wouldn't opt for 2 at the back. That's the shape in-possession but it shouldn't be the shape without it.

I just opt for this:

Bilbaoformation_zpsc1afa589.png

If opponents use 2 strikers, change the DM into a half-back to create 3vs2 when you have possession.

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Yeah I know it's risky to play with just 2 central defenders and I've seen it in-game also, as I usually concede 1 goal at least per game. Obviously I've considered what you are suggesting for the sake of defensive balance and in the end I will probably opt for Wingbacks with CB's, but I still wanna test different ideas with DW's to try and make the tactic more balanced while defending, even though sometimes it feels like banging my head into a wall.

I can see you have also chosen not to use attack duties in your tactic with Bilbao, how is that working for you? Are your IF's and DLF scoring regularly? and how does your central midfield work?

Also the pointer about the DM/HB was spot on, I'm definitely reaping the benefits of that, thanks!

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Yeah I know it's risky to play with just 2 central defenders and I've seen it in-game also, as I usually concede 1 goal at least per game. Obviously I've considered what you are suggesting for the sake of defensive balance and in the end I will probably opt for Wingbacks with CB's, but I still wanna test different ideas with DW's to try and make the tactic more balanced while defending, even though sometimes it feels like banging my head into a wall.

I can see you have also chosen not to use attack duties in your tactic with Bilbao, how is that working for you? Are your IF's and DLF scoring regularly? and how does your central midfield work?

I've tried more Attack duties but I just find it makes players too direct & wasteful. Having everyone on Support duty just seems to make the team more cohesive.

I don't use IF's, I've recently learnt that having AML & AMR as Advanced Playmakers works brilliant for how I want to play. Wingers & Inside Forwards are a nuisance for my style of play. When we're probing in the oppositions half, I want us to stay there. I hated it when every time the ball went wide to a Winger/or IF, they just buggered off down the line to try and get a corner(/get tackled/do nothing) when I just wanted them to simply keep the ball moving. Once we establish dominance in a game, I sometimes change there role to Winger or IF when opponents become less aggressive in there tackling nearing the end of games. They don't score much but I think that's more to do with a poor finishing attribute.

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A thought on the DW's - If you tell them to Cross Less, Cross from Deep and Pass more Direct, they tend to sit deeper and play balls into the channels. With your Supporting forwards and an AP, it might be quite a fruitful tactic?

Also, quite often when playing three at the back with a Regista, I noticed him dropping into the defensive line, which might be an option for your DM woes.

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Having everyone on Support duty just seems to make the team more cohesive.

I've recently learnt that having AML & AMR as Advanced Playmakers works brilliant for how I want to play. Wingers & Inside Forwards are a nuisance for my style of play. When we're probing in the oppositions half, I want us to stay there. I hated it when every time the ball went wide to a Winger/or IF, they just buggered off down the line to try and get a corner(/get tackled/do nothing) when I just wanted them to simply keep the ball moving.

Nice one, that makes a lot of sense possession-wise.

Just like I was saying in the 1st post the DW's get isolated too much, by running down the line and often just make bad decisions and lose the ball.

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A thought on the DW's - If you tell them to Cross Less, Cross from Deep and Pass more Direct, they tend to sit deeper and play balls into the channels. With your Supporting forwards and an AP, it might be quite a fruitful tactic?

Also, quite often when playing three at the back with a Regista, I noticed him dropping into the defensive line, which might be an option for your DM woes.

Thanks for these tips also, I will give them a try.

Somehow I've not tried the Regista yet at all, as the definition within the tactics gives me a sense that he likes to push forward and not hold his position in front of the defence. Its assuring to hear that he actually does drop into the defensive-line.

Also I just watched La U - Deportivo Quito from 2012 Libertadores and noticed how much the La U forwards, or maybe just Junior Fernandes, liked to hug the line on left. So trying those instuctions could actually push my DFs to move more closer to the wing and cut inside from there if passed the ball there by the DW.

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Re: keeper distribution, pass into space will affect- I think it sets through balls to sometimes, which, in the ME, seems to translate to All the time. Double check that his through balls are at rarely, shorten his passing, and defender collect for distribution. THis should help the issue a good bit, though it won't stop all instances of long balls forward. I would like, in future FMs, to give an instruction to him that says "never, never, ever lump the ball upfield, whatever you do!" :)

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I took off the Pass into space and it seems to working much better now at least with outfield players. Their passing has improved drastically for the time being. So there is hope that the Goalie also imporves his passing rate.

Without Pass into space it however seems that I do not get many clear-cut chances as off yet. Gotta test more.

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271 in the OP. Ballsy :lol:

Interested to see how this works long-term for you, can't imagine the answer would be anything other than "disastrous". Way too open at the back imo.

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I took off the Pass into space and it seems to working much better now at least with outfield players. Their passing has improved drastically for the time being. So there is hope that the Goalie also imporves his passing rate.

Without Pass into space it however seems that I do not get many clear-cut chances as off yet. Gotta test more.

People worry too much about CCC's. As long as you're the team which is attacking & controlling the game. Over a course of 90 minutes, domination will eventually result in a goal. You'll have a higher chance of winning than your opponent anyway.

Depends on your style though, maybe you're not as obsessed with the possession side of things as much as what I am.

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Well I like to have possession indeed and with these small changes that I've made using advice that you guys have given me, my last 10 matches I've had a great deal of the ball, which is nice at this point, however only 3 games of those have been the real thing as I was going through off-season when I started this thread. But so far so good.

I still have instructions on just push higher up, but I changed it during the game to much higher up and tight marking and I has seemingly worked when I've been leading. Will try that when the games get tougher and I'm chasing a lead to see how that goes.

The defending vs counter is still the achilles heel, but I'm looking into it.

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271 in the OP. Ballsy :lol:

Interested to see how this works long-term for you, can't imagine the answer would be anything other than "disastrous". Way too open at the back imo.

Atm its 2-6-2 again, but yeah I've got into Libertadores final and Sudamericana final in the same year with more or less using this tactic, but fell on the final hurdle.

The purpose of this thread is to find more consistency to overcome that final hurdle at last.

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Glad to see more attempts at replicating the Sampaoli approach in FM. I've tried to focus on replicating his U de Chile side however I've really struggled to replicate the intensity he gets his teams to play with and obviously when he plays the back 3. Much higher defensive line and hassle opponents just don't seem to exert as much constant pressure in a 3-4-3 which then opens up problems. Also the very high tempo affects the ability of my players to seemingly finish a chance in front of goal. I thought i'd almost cracked it on my America (Mex) test save but then the ridiculous misses have crept in and have drawn my last 4 games 0-0.

I had quite a bit of success replicating it in FM 2013 but required a lot of slider tweaks which are obviously no longer possible. It has been my biggest frustration this version not being able to convert what i've read and seen on Sampaoli's U de Chile into a working, consistent and successful tactic in FM.

The successes i've had so far with this formation:

2014-03-04_00413_zps61d8aff5.jpg

Wingbacks scoring - Mena and Rodriguez scored a lot of goals as wingbacks for U de Chile and i've found Layun and Aguilar have started finding space on the overlap, especially Layun.

Midfielders make a lot of passes and keep the game ticking over.

Defense is reasonably solid even if they do let a few lofted balls over the top through.

The difficulties though are:

Taking chances, my front 3 miss a lot of chances but i think this is down to the much higher tempo. The trouble is if i take that off i lose my intensity in the pressing game.

I think the 2 AMs should really be inside forwards but putting them on the wings creates too much space in the middle.

My front 3 don't press hard enough consistently. Not sure what i can do about this one.

You can't implement attacking centrebacks as Sampaoli did with O.Gonzalez and Rojas who would join the attack every so often and add extra passing options to retain possession.

It's a tricky one the old Sampaoli to get right as it's punished far too easily.

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I have the same issue. Playing a pressing game which is as intense as Bielsa's/Guardiola's/Sampaoli's currently seems impossible on this FM. I also got a lot closer to achieving it on FM13.

Everyone says Hassle Opponents just results in your team constantly being opened up, but the only reason why it's constantly opened up is because the closing down is dire. If there was good closing down, of course there's still a risk of being opened up, but that's a risk most who want to play an intense pressing game can deal with.

Closing down an opposing player on this FM is essentially jogging up to them. And it's not just the individual closing down which is useless, there's no "squeezing the play" on this FM. Players behind the player jogging up to the opponent don't squeeze up behind him to block off passing options for the opponent.

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I'm on a bad run atm. Conceding goals like a madman. Most goals conceded were breakaways where the ball was played through from the centre and the opposing striker just ran through to score.

Getting really annoyed with that and can't really figure out how to make it stop. It's not really because the wingback are playing high up, its the central players that cant get the ball away after a miss pass or a blocked pass. Latest example was against Colon as I drew 3-3. Colon scored 2 from set pieces and one from when my other CM's pass was intercepted and played through to their striker, who with one touch pass played it through to their on the run AM, who went on to score with 5! of my players running after him.

On better note, my forward line is working well. Goals are look great, when a lot of players combine together to play a striker through on goal. Also few goals from DW's crosses. Though more goals should come from midfield as well. AP has stopped scoring lately and the 2 central midfielders are usually playing badly. So sometimes it seems that the strikers are the only threat to the opponent, and if they are nullified, then the whole team struggles.

I might try some different formations soon to make the center more stable and so there would be cover if the ball is lost.

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Glad to see more attempts at replicating the Sampaoli approach in FM. I've tried to focus on replicating his U de Chile side however I've really struggled to replicate the intensity he gets his teams to play with and obviously when he plays the back 3. Much higher defensive line and hassle opponents just don't seem to exert as much constant pressure in a 3-4-3 which then opens up problems. Also the very high tempo affects the ability of my players to seemingly finish a chance in front of goal. I thought i'd almost cracked it on my America (Mex) test save but then the ridiculous misses have crept in and have drawn my last 4 games 0-0.

I had quite a bit of success replicating it in FM 2013 but required a lot of slider tweaks which are obviously no longer possible. It has been my biggest frustration this version not being able to convert what i've read and seen on Sampaoli's U de Chile into a working, consistent and successful tactic in FM.

The successes i've had so far with this formation:

2014-03-04_00413_zps61d8aff5.jpg

Wingbacks scoring - Mena and Rodriguez scored a lot of goals as wingbacks for U de Chile and i've found Layun and Aguilar have started finding space on the overlap, especially Layun.

Midfielders make a lot of passes and keep the game ticking over.

Defense is reasonably solid even if they do let a few lofted balls over the top through.

The difficulties though are:

Taking chances, my front 3 miss a lot of chances but i think this is down to the much higher tempo. The trouble is if i take that off i lose my intensity in the pressing game.

I think the 2 AMs should really be inside forwards but putting them on the wings creates too much space in the middle.

My front 3 don't press hard enough consistently. Not sure what i can do about this one.

You can't implement attacking centrebacks as Sampaoli did with O.Gonzalez and Rojas who would join the attack every so often and add extra passing options to retain possession.

It's a tricky one the old Sampaoli to get right as it's punished far too easily.

Some of my points:

- I do not think that a very high tempo is the way to go. I interpret it as a tendency to pass the ball as quick as possible to my most advanced player(s). Well, this is something I do not want as it gives my wingbacks and midfield runners no time to join attacks properly. Sampaoli/Bielsa like to play in an energetic way. The passing speed can be however influenced by other aspects as well. The proximity of players to exchange passes, PPMs such as one-twos, their mentality...

Also pressing is influenced by work rate, aggresivity...so with the right mix of players your team will look "energetic" on the pitch even when playing slower tempo which is IMO much better suited to play passing game which ends with having numbers in the opposition's box (one of Sampaoli/Bielsa's trademark)

- I am still on FM11 and yes, the sliders are giving me a lot of options.

- As regards of your AMs, I think the best way is to play with 9.5 in AMC position and two deep lying strikers (in FM11 I have them on defensive mentality which means:

a) they get back and help with closing down the flanks

b) in possesion they lay off simple passes on my onrushing wingbacks/midfielders

c) they seek to come deep, contribute to the passing game before storming forward aggresively).

Not sure if you can do that in FM14.

- Your wingbacks should hug the touchline (this creates a lof of space in the centre for midfieders).

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Yes! I've been thinking of the tempo aswell. I had a game today which I won 4-3. Was 3-1 down and slowed down the pace to normal and got back to to win it. So there is something there. Obviously myall my players aren't suited to this tactic and I think maybe slowing things down a bit but still playing high up the pitch and hassling opponent can be a way to go in this game.

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Yes! I've been thinking of the tempo aswell. I had a game today which I won 4-3. Was 3-1 down and slowed down the pace to normal and got back to to win it. So there is something there. Obviously myall my players aren't suited to this tactic and I think maybe slowing things down a bit but still playing high up the pitch and hassling opponent can be a way to go in this game.

My opinion is that Chile (Sampaoli/Bielsa) look like they play a high tempo, because as a team they are attacking minded, they attack in numbers, close down aggresively....but it does not mean they play very high tempo in FM terms. They might look that they do, but when in possession, they do not rush things needlessly. Attacking mentality itself means that your first thought is a forward/vertical pass....but it does not mean it has to be a rushed pass.

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By looking at the videos posted by Jimmy up there, they play aggressively when defending and fast on the counter. However when watching a whole game of La U or Chile, it's obvious they don't try to rush things and keep the ball with discipline and the tempo, when controlling the game isn't really really fast, but pretty normal.

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By looking at the videos posted by Jimmy up there, they play aggressively when defending and fast on the counter. However when watching a whole game of La U or Chile, it's obvious they don't try to rush things and keep the ball with discipline and the tempo, when controlling the game isn't really really fast, but pretty normal.

When they win the ball high up the pitch, they look to immediately penetrate. In general though, they suffocate opposition of the ball; like the first video I put up under "Sampaoli's Chile".

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I can see both of your points in regard to the slow tempo when with the ball however i just think for me it then loses the intensity of the press and i proceed to get picked apart by the opposition midfield.

I think in reality it is going to be very difficult to replicate exactly, with current restrictions within the TC and how back 3s operate. Maybe if i break down my basic understanding of Sampoali's tactics with La U we can take it from there.

Re-read the zonal marking analysis of U de Chile (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/12/16/universidad-de-chile-tactics-bielsa-sampaoli/)

Key Points of Sampaoli's tactics at la U.

Formation - Back 3,mostly a variation of 3-4-3

Central defender sits deep(Cover duty)

Right sided centre back has license to move forward.(Stopper - Get further forward PI selected (found this doesn't work though))

Left sided centre back a converted fullback

Standard Wingbacks - Press high up the pitch and provide width (Wingback/Complete wingback - attack. Close down more)

A creative holder - Allowed to move forward and interchange positions with the attacking midfielder - Regista or Deep lying playmaker support?

An attacking midfielder - Drops deep but more of a runner than a creator - Box to Box midfielder?

Central striker - Create space, drop deep, hold up the ball - Deep lying forward support with hold up ball?

Wide forwards - Attack space, make inward runs from out wide into goalscoring positions - AM R - Inside forwards - attack and AM L - Inside forward - Support?

Team instructions

Attack very directly

Attack Mentality, direct passing?

Majority of players make forward runs

Roam from position? Or should this happen naturally with attacking mentality?

Get numbers in the penalty area

Get further forward selected as PI where possible.

Variation of formation dependent on opposition

3 tactics trained - The standard 3-4-3, 3-4-3-0 (Swap deep lying forward for Trequartista that also presses (Lorenzetti) and a 3-3-1-3?

Close down from the front and pressure from midfield

All 7 attacking players to close down as quickly as possible. - Hassle opponents?

Non Suicidal Backline

High defensive line rather than much higher defensive line. Will the pressing be as intense?

Anything else to add? I'll be doing some testing again later but i suspect there will be issues that may need to add additional and tweak FM instructions to try and best match real life.

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Hmm my bad run continued so I was forced to make pretty big overhaul considering the shape of the team.

I tried the 3 defender system for a good bit, but it just seemed to work from the beginning a bit and half. Then it collapsed all together. So to save my season I had to go back to a good old 4-5-1 for a bit, but still with more advanced attacking and pressing setup while I was thinking of my next move with "The Sampaoli".

So here's what I did next:

sampaoliv23212.jpg

It's a bit of a compromise of the original as I finally opted against the DW's and went for the WB's instead.

I also went on the expense of possession and opted for direct passing, but am pondering of trying normal passing again, once the team gets more familiar with the system. Also thinking of changing the team mentality to Very Fluid, as Bielsa/Sampaoli teams do defend and attack as a team, but atm its still on rigid, though I won 4-0 at San Lorenzo when I went very fluid on them.

Also I've been switching the wingback positions up and down depending on how the opposition line up. Vs. stronger team a flat back four and against weaker 2 CD's with wingbacks a bit higher up.

Also the Regista becomes a HB, as JimmyGuitarist suggested somewhere above, when the opposition plays with 2 strikers. So am now actually trying the spare man rule in action and so far it's been working.

Have been trying to do without PI's as well apart from the goalie, who actually has gone way better with his distribution recently.

It's off-season again. Won the Copa Argentina, but lost in the quarter-finals in the Libertadores and finished lowly 5th in the league which was really a low point as was hanging around 8-10 for most of the season.

To strengthen my team am in in hunt of BBM to cover Zuculini. Will try to get the younger Zuculini to come back to me as a 1st option and go from there.

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That is very unlikely to work - almost no forward runs from your players due to the excess of support duties, yet filled with players playing through balls.

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Please do share your ideas as well? I changed the other WB to attack and the BPD to normal CD, as I've seen and read the BPD is really hard to make work in this game.

I'm trying to figure what you mean that there no forward runs? Isn't a BBM running forward and the WB's? Also the attackers drop deeper to be able to make runs to the box and on to ball?

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Johnsmith - first read wwfan's 12 step guide to FM14 - then read my pairs & combinations thread - both stickied at the top of the forum.

Simply playing with 1 attack duty, and everyone else static or dropping deep is the opposite of a bold Chilean approach, where they are fairly attacking and inventive instead.

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Love the tactic name by the way "Sampaoli V45". Is that attempt number 45? I think i've tried a similar amount of times myself.

With my America (Mex) team i've got a tactic that works pretty well, it also uses a lot of support duties and without them you dont' get the front players pressing the opposition hard enough. (i've done lots of tests and support works best). I think with an attacking mentality and PIs of get further forward you still get the forward runs and movement to create chances.

Another thing i've tried recently is to untick tight marking which does seem to see more pack hunting than with it switched on however it is complete pointless if your player can't actually get the ball and keep it. :)

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Yeah something like that. :D I think I've never done this much testing in any FM before.

Yes for me it seemed to work much better with the support roles than with some attacking roles around the team. Also I'm with you with the tight marking. It seems to me that I'm caught more out of position when I have it ticked on than off.

With my forwards the DF and CF both on support duty I've scored plenty of goals where the other has pressed the ball away from the opposition and passed it to the other who is in space free to score.

I think the biggest issue with this kind of tactic is not the scoring goals, but how to make it work defensively. Obviously we all know that Bielsas teams concede alot and Sampaolis teams not so much, apart if there are some crucial players missing, like Marcelo Diaz who seems to be fundamental piece of Sampaolis jigsaw.

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Yeah something like that. :D I think I've never done this much testing in any FM before.

Yes for me it seemed to work much better with the support roles than with some attacking roles around the team. Also I'm with you with the tight marking. It seems to me that I'm caught more out of position when I have it ticked on than off.

With my forwards the DF and CF both on support duty I've scored plenty of goals where the other has pressed the ball away from the opposition and passed it to the other who is in space free to score.

I think the biggest issue with this kind of tactic is not the scoring goals, but how to make it work defensively. Obviously we all know that Bielsas teams concede alot and Sampaolis teams not so much, apart if there are some crucial players missing, like Marcelo Diaz who seems to be fundamental piece of Sampaolis jigsaw.

Yeah agree the Diaz role is definitely the hardest to replicate as on paper he sits in front of the back 2 or 3 but in reality he pretty much turns up everywhere on the pitch ready to offer a passing outlet. He's is probably the most impressive player for me and even more impressive given that before Sampaoli he was a wingback who struggled to get into the team.

I think the DF/CF combo is a good idea and probably closely mimics the work Vargas and Castro did a U de Chile if not a bit more centrally than they were in real life.

In terms of defensive have you considered using a sweeper? There is a great thread over at thedugout.net http://www.thedugout.tv/community/showthread.php?t=92868 on implementing a sweeper and that might give you a bit more defensive stability. Marcos Gonzalez would definitely sit a lot deeper than the other 2 CBs and by the sounds of the result in the thread you don't see the problems with the DCs splitting too far apart.

Also i've found you have to have a sweeper keeper - attack for your goalkeeper even if he doesn't have the stats for it. It seems to make the opposition think twice about the through ball over the top.

I've slightly adapted my tactic for my career game with Panathinaikos just to see whether it could work in Europe and it gave me a 3-1 win over Celtic in the Europa League quarter final first leg. (the one goal came from corner grrrrr)

I've gone for:

3-3-2-2

GK

CB(D)-CB(D)-CB(D)

CWB-REG-CWB

AP(A)-CM(D)

TR-CF(S)

Exactly the same team and player instructions as i had in my America (Mex) tactic. Seemed to keep the ball well and ended up scoring 3 great goals alongside quite a few easy misses. Next game tonight is versus PAOK away so will be interesting to see whether it can work away from home in Greece as well. Now bear in mind my centre backs are more traditional so aren't really great passers and none of them are particularly quick so it's not very U de Chile. However i'm hoping that the energy of my 3 man midfield can compensate for that and cut off the supply.

Getting a Sampaoli-esq tactic working how it should be both offensively and defensively would be a start. :)

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After watching the Chile - Spain game, I wanted to create something similar for my Man Utd side.

Now, I have gone for a different approach. For me the Sampaoli style is not so much about formation as it is about the role of the players and the mentality of the team. I don't believe in using to many shouts either, as the mentality does this for you. Yes, his team is all about pressing, but its not about pressing all over the pitch all the time, as that would leave an unorganized mess. The style I created is very solid at the back, quick in transition, and the players work together as a collective unit, pressing high, but varied.

Mentality: Attacking

Philosophy: Balanced

Shouts: Shorter passing (his teams employ short passing with a quick tempo), more diciplined (his style of play is all about the collective)

GK-D

WBR-A

DC-D

DC-D

FBL-S

DM-D

BWMR-D

B2B-S

DW-S (AMR)

DW-S (AML)

DF-S

If i'm struggling defensively I drop the am's back to the ml/mr line and put the df on defend duty. Now, this seems very restrictive and looks like it lacks creativity, but the mentality (attacking) negates this in some way.

For this kind of style to work your players (and I mean nearly all of them) needs high team-work, work-rate, stamina and some aggression.

This tactic is still in a very early phase, but the style of play and the results have been very encouraging so far in terms of replicating the Sampaoli philosophy.

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I wish you luck with this one Vizzini as I think if I've given up being able to replicate the Sampaoli intensive press on FM 2014.

I agree with you on the formation part but there are some constants, Marcelo Diaz in the deep lying playmaker/regista role, both the wingbacks get forward and having two pacey players up front (whether they start wide or central depends on whether Sampoali plays with a creative AM or a target man CF).

The Chile match definitely inspired me to go back and try this again but i think the issue you'll always find is implementing the intensity that Sampaoli's teams implement in real life. It just doesn't seem to work and the high line needed for an intense press is quickly pulled apart by defense splitting passes as opposition players have too much time on the ball. It seems that on FM only 2 players max ever seem to go and close down the player in possession and often at walking pace.

Chile's pressing was very precise and they knew the exact time of when to press, where always aware of each player was and when to give themselves a minute to catch their breath and regroup. It is a very clever way of playing and fascinating to watch sadly though i just don't think FM has the options yet to be as precise and intensive with the pressing and general play as Chile are.

Anyway let me know how you get on.

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Thank you for the feedback, I have actually toyed with the idea of making the DM a regista, I'm just afraid it will leave to much space and create defensive holes, and the DM's job is in fact to recycle possession and close down, to many specialists also means a more rigid philosophy, something I cannot do as I need the CB's and fb/wb to take part in the transition phase.

Having the fb-s has created a big hole between him and the aml, and since the mcl also push up a bit, I will try to change the role into a more attacking wingback, maybe it will help.

Agree with the pacey players, my wingers have some real pace on them, so that isn't a problem, and my striker is not particularly slow and likes to drop into space. My only problem so far seems to be that the wingers take potshots from wide angles, I would like them to cut more inside, but the dw-role doesn't allow this, and I will not change the role, as the pressing is really good. I'm going to try some PI's on them, maybe stay narrower and/or shot less, but I'm worried that I won't be able to press the fb's the same way or that the dw's will be too careful in the last phase of play.

Well, an attacking mentality has a high line as default, and the aggressive roles means that intense pressing actually works to some degree. I will agree that FM's tactical options are limited, but I believe it is possible to create a similar style, although not the perfect replica.

Also, reading this was a big help: http://footballmanageranalysis.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/a-tactical-analysis-of-jorge-sampaoli/

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Yeah it's a good read and the analysis from a few years ago on Zonal Marking is good as well, especially for giving you the different approaches Sampaoli makes dependent on opposition.

I'd also recommending watching some of the U de Chile games from 2011 that are on youtube as that'll give you some good insight as well as to how you want your players to play in an ideal world.

I think ideally you really want the wide players to have the mentality of an inside forward with the ball but defensive forward without.

I think with the Diaz role if you are playing 2 at the back then i'd play DLP - Defend but with 3 i'd play him as either a regista or DLP - Support.

My thoughts on last night and how i would setup in theory on FM is as follows:

Chile played more of 3-3-2-2 and Sampaoli seems to like playing full backs as the outside two of the 3 with a DM as the centre of the 3. Certainly at U de Chile the outside 2 of the 3 would alternate getting forward like fullbacks (something you can't sadly do on FM unless you play with 2 FBs and 1 CD). You'd then have your two wingbacks and Mr Diaz in the DM positions, Aranguiz as CM - Support and Vidal as CM - Attack. Then you could potentially even have had the formation as strikerless with Vargas and Sanchez in either the wide positions cutting in or through the middle running wide, they were doing both last night. I think maybe both as DLFs with roam from position, and move into channels.

If i'd been facing that Spain side on FM i'd have gone for attacking - fluid with more disciplined, tight marking, much higher tempo, work ball into box and get stuck in selected. I think that although last night they were playing short passes, Sampaoli does like to mix it up a bit and they are sometimes known to go more direct and get the likes of Vargas and Sanchez running in behind.

Anyway that is how i'd approach it but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll work in FM. :)

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I've been trying to re-create this tactic myself. Interesting to see so many different interpretations of the formation. It's hard to pin down because with the work-rate of the players almost all of them seem to be playing in two positions at once. Decided to start out at U. de Chile on the basis that there'd be a decent base of the right players to make it work. At present, I'm going with this set up, a sort of 2-5-3:

Inside Forward (A)---Trequartista (A)---Inside Foward (A)

----------------------------------------------------

-------------Ballwinner (S)--Deep-Playmaker (S)----------

----------------------------------------------------

Wingback (A)-------Deep-Playmaker (S)---Wingback (A)

-----------------------------------------------------

---------Central Defender (D)--Central Defender (D)--

-----------------------------------------------------

--------------------Sweeperkeeper (D)----------------

Considering the attacking mentality and only having two at the back, it's been suprisingly solid (only two goals conceded in eight games so far). The movement up front has been exactly as I'd like, we're winning the ball high up the pitch, dominating possession and creating tons of chances.

Main issue so far is that we're not converting enough of those chances into goals. Someone earlier in the thread suggested this could be due to the high tempo - is this likely?

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