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Jambo98

Set pieces, OI, PPM & attributes - Making a good tactic better

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So I had lost interest in the tactics element of FM during 14.2.2 and its ME (personal comment/point of view/choice - not looking to debate its merits). I reverted to finding a nice tactic to download, and focused on enjoying other elements of the game.

As part of it though, i found myself heavily focusing on what attributes my players needed for the roles. As in giving it real thought, and then feeling quite smug when it improved the overall "end result" of my downloaded tactic. I don't mean buying better players - not replacing with "better" players. Im not talking about replacing Cleverley with say, an empty shoe box....but rather replacing lets say Cleverley in a CM slot with perhaps someone like Borja Valero - So changing the player type to focus the attributes on what i needed.

Anyway, it got me to thinking about the other smaller, less talked about areas of tactics and team set up. The ones which are oft ignored, and quite likely are what makes the difference between success and failure. I see lots of posts on here, where someone shows a tactic, and says "how can i make it better". Lots of good advice follows - things like how you might change a role, or a philosophy, or add a team or player instruction. None of them ask "have you done the basics - the hidden things that a screenshot of your tactic wont show".

So here i propose a discussion around some of these. Each of them has, im sure, been discussed before. Some have had specific topics (PPM im sure has). SO a load of what you might read is stuff that's been written before, or is covered in many of the detailed guides. But what the hell, im gonna write it anyway, as much like Tom Cleverley this summer, i have some time on my hands.......

Set Pieces

Its staggering that people ignore these, given the huge impact they have on any game of football. Its almost like people see it as "stigma" - If you focus on your set pieces then you must Sam Allardyce or Tony Pulis. And only teams like Stoke and Bolton should spend time on this........b*llocks.....

If you look at the % of a teams total goals which have come from set pieces this season, 2 of the top 5* come out as Southampton and Everton - Both teams almost universally praised for how they play the game at the moment. The 3* teams who have scored the most set piece goals overall this season? Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea.....

So set pieces are important. And not just corners. Free kicks, both direct and indirect, and even throw ins. If you are going into the first competitive game of any season, and you havent set up each and every set piece scenario, both the takers and the plan (long, short, near post etc) then your failing as a manager.

The difference between being "average" or just below in the set piece goals you score in a season, and being near to the top, could be anything from 3 - 6 pts over a season. Think how an extra 6pts over a season might change your perception of how good your tactic performed?

*stats based on league games only

** i am not, and do not want to, talk about any form of "corner exploit" - i simply mean setting them up and not leaving default

Opposition Instructions

Ah now these can be divisive amongst the community........to use or not use. Some say they are crucial, use them every match. Some say never touch them it ruins your tactical shape.

My take - As with everything in football, it depends. It depends on your team, your opponent, your strengths, there strengths. If i am playing as Chelsea, then probably for about 80% of my games i don't want to let any single opposition player dictate anything about my approach to the game. Playing Hull, really, im not going to worry about Shane Long or Tom Huddlestone in most scenarios. So i probably would not set any opposition instructions.

But if i flip that, and im Hull playing Chelsea, then yes i probably would look to target specific areas/players. In the current environment, probably i look at Hazard and say i cant let him have time on the ball. Maybe i also look at Torres and say his pace is gone, i don't need my defenders to get close to him, we can let him turn and run safely (The way he is playing, just get out of his way and point him towards the goal would seem a good instruction........)

Its all about identifying when there is a true danger. Either through individual playres, or through how a team approaches the game. Maybe a team always plays wide, your not really much better than them overall, so you might want to target the wingers. There are various options, and the only way they will really be a success is if you consider them. You dont have to implement them, but as i mention, ignoring them is simply not what a top manager would do is it?

PPM's

For me, this one can be huge. The PPM's a player, or players, within your squad/system/set up has can completely define your performance and change how you view whether you have a "good" tactic or not.

Its already a much written about topic, that when deciding a tactic you must have players to "suit" it - So either you go the route of looking at your players and developing a system to suit them, or you pick a system and recruit/train/borrow the players to fit into it. I dont propose to talk anymore about the how or why of those 2 options. If you don't know those, probably time to go back to Fifa......(disclaimer - i actually like Fifa, other than always getting beat.....)

Again, im hardly breaking new ground here, but finding the right PPMs, or more likely training them, can make a huge different to your tactic. Conversely, players with the wrong type of PPM for your system can destroy it leave you thinking you have a really bad set up, you've got the shape wrong, when really you haven't.

There are a huge number of permutations of whats good and bad, depending on your set up the same PPM could be either. I dont propose to go into great detail about each on (there are guides to this, search the forum) but i guess just reflect on how big a difference it can make. One slightly thorny example was the Daniel Sturridge of 14.2. His PPM of "shoots from distance" could destroy the perception of a tactic (as well as destroy my sanity.....). In one save, the difference i observed when replacing him with a striker of probably slightly lower overall quality, but with more suited PPM (Places shots instead) was massive. It probably scored me 10 extra goals over half a season, maybe added 8 points i wouldnt have had before and totally changed the outcome of my tactical system.

Now id rather not get into an argument about Sturridge etc, but using one example of why you absolutely need to look at, and understand PPMs

Player Attributes

This one, i think more people are on top of, but it still sometimes is misunderstood. Once you have a system, and your looking at your players within the system, or more importantly looking to recruit players, you absolutely should be filtering any search based on the key attributes for the role you are looking for that player to perform (nb - not specifically the named role in the ME - what is it you want this player to do i mean).

Its very subjective in many ways, but for example in earlier FM i was the worst in the world for judging a player on the overall "look" of his 30 odd attributes. I loved Raul Garcia because there wasnt a single digit attribute on the screen - everything above 10. That's great, but if im recruiting a holding midfielder, and his tacking/positioning/strength are all 11 and his dribbling, free kick taking and agility are all 17+ then its just not going to work.

If you are Man City, you can probably afford to buy any of the 10 or so players in the world in each position who are just automatically going to be good enough to fit what you need. For the rest of us, we need to prioritise. Think of what you want the player to do and start to prioritise based on the key attributes for that task. Everyone might have a different view on which attributes are important for what roles, but the key is just dont ignore the principal.

As an example, on a recent save i needed someone to sit in the "CM" slot and be very attacking. I didnt have a huge budget but i knew i wanted someone i guess in the mold of a coutinho - A flair player. Near the bottom of the value list of players i could find was a player in the Porto B team called Josue. Pretty much unheralded, and overall not a superstar. But i looked at the key attributes i wanted and wow.....16 passing, 17 technique, 16 flair, 16 creativity.........signed him for about £700K and he turned into a star and Portugal International.

Summary

So, your quite possibly reaching this stage and thinking "hold on a freaking minute, ive just read all that and he hasnt told me anything, no clear guide on how to score 15 a season from corners, no telling me how i can use OI to stop Messi, no trick on which PPM will turn Tom Cleverley into a superstar.............thats 10mins of my life im never getting back".

And i havent. I dont know. I dont have the answers. What i do know, is that your tactic will be better if you do focus on these things, than if you dont. I also know that from reading threads and even downloading tactics, plenty of people dont focus on them.

In the second post, i will try to do some sort of example, take a tactic if just started to build and see if i can put some of this waffling into practice........

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The base tactic

So this is the basic of what i am going to work with. Few general things to note:

  • Its a bit funky. I am a fan of the unusual formations
  • It wasnt implemented pre-season. I started this save to test something else, that something else failed miserable after 3 games and instead of restarting i experimented with this tactic and liked it so kept going
  • The above means i really dont have a squad ideally suited to the tactic yet - Transfer windows will need to be used

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This thread isnt really about my overall tactic, but cant really talk about things like OI and PPMs without having the tactic as a big part of it.

The main themes of the tactic are:

1) Strikerless - Using the 2 SS to draw defenders out and then break in behind. Combined with a couple of supporting midfielders close to them to push them forward

2) Complete wing backs - because every good tactic needs multiple attack types. My 2 x SS are the main ones, but 2 flying wingbacks provide great alternatives

3) Sweeper - Coz i love em! Plus, CWB for me means you need 3 at the back otherwise your massively exposed (unless your Barca). Having a sweeper rather than 3 x DC does 2 things - Firstly it keeps the other 2 a bit narrower when defending, which i want, and secondly it protects us from the ball over the top.

4) Anchor man - Because i like the defensive diamond.

In terms of success thus far, in 10 games with this tactic its 8 wins, 2 draws. Includes wins over Roma away and Milan at home. As i said, the team isnt built that well for the tactic so it can get better.

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Pretty simple but strong intro. I hope you have interesting things to tell . And I sure hope you don't tell us to hard tackle every player on that field just like the assistant man. :)

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I think your possibly missing the point Double0Seven...........im not going to tell you what to do :)

Sure i will try and post up some examples of how i am going to approach those topics in my game, and hopefully others will too. But unless im playing your save for you, there is not really any point hoping you can just copy exactly what i do. Unless we happen to manage the same team, with the same players, and same tactics, same staff members, then you need to tailor your approach to each of these to suit your own game/team/topic :)

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OI - An example case

Ok, so luck would have it that just after finishing my OP, i hit a match which screamed out for OI. Below firstly is the tactical set ups pre-game

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Firstly, its a game against a team, who whilst perhaps not super-powers, are still better than me man for man. They have a few outstanding players. Also, a quick look at the base set up gives a huge hint that OI would help in this match. The wingers are both playing on "wrong" sides. Emanuelson is very left sided, and El-Shaarawy is right footed.

So the absolutely obvious OI for those 2, is to show them onto their weaker foot. Keep them wide. Not only will this give them no where to go, but even it gives them room to cross, then they will be crossing from the wrong foot so lack accuracy. Plus, although Balotelli is good in the area, i have 3 central defenders to cover him.

Second OI opportunity i saw was Kaka in the AMC slot. It was clear from how they set up that he was going to be the main creator. Although Honda is a good player from deep, Essien is not creative. Balotelli is also an out and out striker so i believed they would look to play through Kaka. I therefore set up OI to close down Kaka always.

So how did it work? Well we won the match 1 v 0, had 4 ccc to 1 so overall it worked. But if we look a little closer at the 3 individuals i mentioned:

El-Shaarawy

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1424403EF670BB99AC9EF698A5EBBBA14BE65322

02D7A627672DED79DC8D69A898D9D04A882395FB

So the above shows that he didnt try a dribble past a man the entire game - Clearly he didnt fancy going on the outside. He tried a grand total of 1 cross, which was not successful. So as a wideman, he was completely snuffed out. His passing analysis also shows that a large number of his passes were backwards - a sign that we had cut off his avenue inside to Balotelli or Kaka. I would mark that down as a resounding success.

Emanuelson

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B6C7AB99132472AA0FC91DD07D8B6EDB1E84B587

23F15F7797F6B2D9FA85D913EF5039308C6D6527

Actually Emanuelson was possibly slightly better for Milan. He did make 3 runs, one of which was actually a cut inside, possibly showing that my LB didnt quite do his job. The crosses are interesting - 5 crosses (discount the one that is actually a corner.....terrible feature of the "analysis tab"....) and of those, 2 flew right out of play for a goal kick. Shows the value of putting a player on his weaker foot. Passing wise, also lots of backwards and sideways as he was forced into areas he didnt want to be in.

Kaka

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So the main man (albeit a fading superstar!). Well, the passing analysis tells a story. Kaka did most of his passing around central midfield, with very few around my box and not being allowed to feed incutting wide men. The positional analysis shows that he spent most of the game far deeper than Milan would want there AMC to be, and by virtue of how i am set up, pushing him back (via closing down), sent him into an area where i have a flood of players (1x Anchor, 2x Cm, 2 x SS).

This is probably an example of OI being used in conjunction with the over arching tactic - I used OI to push him into an area where i could stop him being effective. If i had been playing a 4231 Deep lets say, then the same OI might actually have pushed him into space where he could create. Think bigger picture always........

So there we go, some examples of OI in action. Ground breaking? hardly. Been shown before? Certainly. But if it helps one or two people think about there tactic and the wider elements of the tactical game then worth it.

Be great to hear and see how others use OI in specific situations to add to their tactic/system.

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A few things I have always considerd when closing down AMCs is that sometimes its better just to man mark them and not set OI on them. The one who is man marking will try to close him down anyways most of the time if he even gets the ball. If you set always closing your defenders might try to close him down and thus leaving space for the striker to exploit. And since in your example Emanuelson and El Shaarawy were cutting inside this would sometimes be bad. Balotteli, Emanuelson and Shaarawy would definitely cause trouble if you only had two defenders.

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I think you might have inadvertently proved my point............I dont have 2 defenders, which is why it did work.........Its about the fact that every game is different and so is every tactic. Was trying to inspire others to look at there own examples........

That said, your point doesnt really make sense. I set them to show onto weaker foot, which meant the opposite of them cutting inside. Emanuelson is left footed. I showed him onto his right. That means show him the outside. That would work just fine with a back 4...........

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Nice thread mate. Really illustrates that there are so many options available to us to setup our team.

I think you don't necessarily need to us them all consistently to be successful, but it is important to know they are there and what they can do.

Personally I would love to see some more examples as you encounter them. I find it really interesting.

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A good thread, Jambo! As Mark said above, it never ceases to amaze me how complex FM can be with all the working parts that go into the final match product. I think you've hit on a few areas that I know I tend to neglect in my approach. :applause:

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I like set pieces. Offensively I like to create diversions of some sort. I have had a lot of success with the tactic of delivering the ball to the "wrong guy". I'll put my best headers at the near post and to attack from deep and put the shortest guy to attack the far post where I play the ball, I then just love it when he puts it away.

another tactic that I use is to play the whole game the ball on the far post to my best headers only to switch the focus in the 89th minute and play the ball to the near post to my forward, it has happened quite a few times that I have managed to score with this approach

However my primary set piece tactic is to try to put the ball to the far post and from there I expect the ball to be passed to my unmarked striker on the near post, the is the best tactic, since the focus of the defending players is on the ball and the immediate goal treat they often leave the secondary treat totally unmarked, if the ball somehow gets from the far post to the near post then it is almost a certain goal.

Free kicks I feel are very difficult to control as a manager as we do not have so many different options, you can put one player to attack the keeper, one to disrupt the wall and that is it,

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Nice thread mate. Really illustrates that there are so many options available to us to setup our team.

I think you don't necessarily need to us them all consistently to be successful, but it is important to know they are there and what they can do.

Personally I would love to see some more examples as you encounter them. I find it really interesting.

I think this is absolutely key, especially for PPM and OI - Its not about using them obsessively, its about always taking them into consideration. You might only use OI 4 games a season, but in those 4 games it could be the difference between 1pt and 3pts. Come the end of the season, thats a huge different to your final points total.

likewise PPM. Depending on your set up, there are certain position/roles or even levels of football where its just not going to be relevant to implement them. But always consider it, and make sure you do use it where it can be a benefit.

I like set pieces. Offensively I like to create diversions of some sort. I have had a lot of success with the tactic of delivering the ball to the "wrong guy". I'll put my best headers at the near post and to attack from deep and put the shortest guy to attack the far post where I play the ball, I then just love it when he puts it away.

another tactic that I use is to play the whole game the ball on the far post to my best headers only to switch the focus in the 89th minute and play the ball to the near post to my forward, it has happened quite a few times that I have managed to score with this approach

However my primary set piece tactic is to try to put the ball to the far post and from there I expect the ball to be passed to my unmarked striker on the near post, the is the best tactic, since the focus of the defending players is on the ball and the immediate goal treat they often leave the secondary treat totally unmarked, if the ball somehow gets from the far post to the near post then it is almost a certain goal.

Free kicks I feel are very difficult to control as a manager as we do not have so many different options, you can put one player to attack the keeper, one to disrupt the wall and that is it,

Great example of what i was saying on set pieces - That might add you the 5 goals a season you need to go from 6th to 4th in the league. Could be the difference between Europa and Champs league.

I like that you have varied set ups as well. :thup:

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Attribute Matching & PPMs - Example

So, in the second post i showed my current tactic. At that point i was playing as Fiorentina, but unfortunately that game crashed and i lost about 8 matches worth (last minute injury with no subs bug which sticks you in the match screen). Rather than replaying it, i started a new save using the exact same tactic, this time as Swansea.

As you can see, i use CWB(a) in my tactic. A hugely demanding position, which is usually restricted to really top class players (Dani Alves and Jordi Alba are the defining players for this roll i would suggest). Now i am Swansea, so i dont have, and cant get an Alves or Alba. Money is tight, but i do want to upgrade my right sided wing back (Angel Rangel is a legend, but ageing).

The player i recruited was a cheap loan signing, unwanted by Inter Milan - Jonathan. Nothing revolutionary about finding him, im sure he has been signed in many a mid table save. Here he is thought

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Why did i specifically sign him? Well i need someone to be a CWB, and in my tactic its someone playing with a back 3 as opposed to a back 4, so he has marginally less defensive responsiblity. I prioritised attacking type attributes, namely:

Stamina - An absolute must for a CWB - he is going to run all day, up and down. 15 = Tick (for the level i am at)

Speed - Again, he is going to be playing like a winger much of the time and the way i play, i will be looking to play him in behind full backs so needs this - 15/14 = Tick

Off the ball - Similar to speed, he needs to know when to move forward into the spaces my tactic creates - 15 = big tick, not many wing backs with this

Crossing/Dribbling - He is going to play like a winger and get a fair few crossing chances. Dribbling is a bonus, never going to get Messi here. 14/12 = Tick

Other thigns i like - Team work and work rate are high, great for any player and particular an up and down the pitch type. Also Finishing and compsure, whilst low in overall terms, are high for a wing back. My tactic i know creates a fair few chances for wing backs to be in on goal so i take this

The down sides - So his Tackling, Marking and Positioning are 11/12/11. He would not, in my opinion, make a good FB(d) or FB(s). But since defending is his secondary function, very much so, in my tactic, then these are actually quite good attributes. Flipped around, if i was playing a FB(s) who had great defensive stats, i would then accept 11/12/11 for say crossing/dribbling/passing (again, this is comparative to the level of my team - if i was Chelsea i might not accept it)

PPMS

The same player gives me a good example of the right type of PPMs for a role. Below are his PPM's upon signing for me.

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Runs with the ball down the right - Ideal, he is going to play right side CWB for me. He has all this space in front of him and i want him to carry the ball into it.

Gets Forward whenever possible - Again, his primary duty is to be attacking, i want him bombing on, and in my tactic often being the furthest forward on the pitch.

Plays one twos - I love this in any player, and for a wide player its great. He can pick the ball up deep, look inside to either my CM(s) or even my SS(a) and give and go, gets him in behind nicely

For the moment, i wont be adding any more to his PPMs. I could consider adding one for finishing, but he is not that likely to pick it up because of his low(ish) finishing. I could also consider "switches the ball to the other flank" which might fit my tactic, but for now i dont want to do that.

Again, nothing new or revolutionary here. Ideally i would have picked a better player example with strong attributes in one area and weak in unimportant ones, but as it happens i just havent signed one yet! Have one more example to give which i will write up tonight.

In summary, its a small part of what makes your tactic work. I like to think of it like this - Imagine you are doing one of these "tactic tests" (i hate them......). Not the stupid holiday type, but you are playing a full season, using a new tactic you have built, doing all the usual things like signing players and handling squad/morale. At the end of the season, if you have ignored the things listed in this thread, i would almost guarantee you will be anything from 4 to 10pts worse off. Think of how that would make you reflect on the results of your test.

Love to hear of others using these type of things to improve their system, rather than trying to re-invent a tactic to move it on that last 10% :)

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Another great piece. So much common sense, but I bet it is often overlooked. I know that I don't spend as much time thinking about what I want a player to be doing when deployed in a given role. Much food for thought :applaud:

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Well Done Jambo this a top quality thread.

For me personally this is judged by the fact that I'm sitting here in work and I am already thinking of ways to improve my save when I get home. Aldo what you have written is really common sense it just outlines how a couple of small little details can change things big time and you have backed this up perfectly with examples.

:applause::applause:

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Thanks guys, if a few people can take something form this, then its well worth talking about :)

My own experience on my current save, mixed..........

Jonathan, highlighted above as being signed to fit a perfect role, has been a great success. He has 3 goals (and 1 assist) in just 7 matches so far. Shows that his PPM's and his attacking attributes, which i highlighted and signed him for, are working perfectly.

Meanwhile set pieces..........well.....I cant seem to defend a corner. I set up a man marking system initialy, with both posts covered, one many left up field, and one many on the edge of the area. Thus far, in 8 league matches i have conceded 4 goals from corners, and another from a crossed free kick!

Thats simply woeful and its costing me points in a big way. So, moral of the story is, whilst you really must consider your set piece routines, perhaps its best to know what your doing!

Which brings me to a question - Am i missing something, or is it not possible to set up zonal marking from corners? I have seen the AI look very much like they are doing it, but i can only set one player to "mark the 6 yard box", which i would assume to be the Zonal instruction? Anyone got any insight?

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Talking about OI's, my take on the matter was - if a player has pace to burn, it'd be dangerous to close him down as he can easily turn and leave you for dead? Hazard is a difficult one to play against as he has no weak foot and is extremely quick, so I tend to just ask my fullbacks to clatter him!

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I don't use men on the posts on corners, they never seem to do much. And i use the Mourinho school of thought that the more men you leave up the pitch the less they will put in the box. My front three all stay high and my creative midfielder sites outside the box. Marking is man marking for CD's, cant remember what i did with the others though. I dont often concede from corners and get a decent amount of goals on the counter, even though the opposition leaves 4 men back, sometimes 5.

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Thanks guys, if a few people can take something form this, then its well worth talking about :)

My own experience on my current save, mixed..........

Jonathan, highlighted above as being signed to fit a perfect role, has been a great success. He has 3 goals (and 1 assist) in just 7 matches so far. Shows that his PPM's and his attacking attributes, which i highlighted and signed him for, are working perfectly.

Meanwhile set pieces..........well.....I cant seem to defend a corner. I set up a man marking system initialy, with both posts covered, one many left up field, and one many on the edge of the area. Thus far, in 8 league matches i have conceded 4 goals from corners, and another from a crossed free kick!

Thats simply woeful and its costing me points in a big way. So, moral of the story is, whilst you really must consider your set piece routines, perhaps its best to know what your doing!

Which brings me to a question - Am i missing something, or is it not possible to set up zonal marking from corners? I have seen the AI look very much like they are doing it, but i can only set one player to "mark the 6 yard box", which i would assume to be the Zonal instruction? Anyone got any insight?

Yeah there is a problem with zonal defending corners, the issue is known by SI but its a miss and unlikely to be fixed in the FM14, see more here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/386248-14.3-Corners

In spite of the limitations of the tools we have I still try to think logically about corners, inspired by real life football

take Zlatan Ibrahimovic as an example, he is imposing and big guy but quite crappy at marking and tracking people in defensive situations, so how do you use him in a defensive set piece situation? IRL both in the club and national team he is covering the near post. That is the best position for good jumper and header that is bad at defending. His job is to clear all underhit and bad corner crosses, he guards a place, position on the field rather then a person.

So as I always have a big guy in my attack I put the big guy on the near post, the far post is harder to aim for so there i put some small guy from attacking midfield to be around and make a clearance of a low ball in case something slips thru

One another thing that does not function in FM is the specific instruction to man mark small or tall guys. That leads to some funny situations where your best headers leave the penalty box and man-mark some tall guy that lurks outside so what i do is to take the best seven man-markers (guys with high man-marking attribute and solid concentration) and put them on man mark, the worst player defensive wise is put on the edge of area.

I think it is crucial to have someone guarding the edge of area as this guy will take on short clearances and engage the opposition in case they back-pass to the edge of area, without the player on the edge of area you will invite extra long pressure on your goal so its vital

I rarely concede on corners but my teams are usually better defensively than offensively, with more defensively orientated fullbacks and defensively oriented central midfield.

That Jonathan guy that you showed would be something I would put on MR AND put someone more defensively skilled behind him as a fullback.

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Yup thats a really good example of thinking on the corners. I do however agree with the previous comment, that in FM terms, men on the post do nothing. I dont believe i have ever seen a man on the post prevent a goal in all the matches i have watched. In real life, i would always cover at least the near post but im going to change to go no one on the posts.

Re Jonathan - i think again your illustrating one of my initial points - For me, and my tactic, he is perfect for the CWB role. I signed him specifically because his attributes matched what i wanted for that role. For you, or anyone else, and your tactic, then you might not sign him, or you might look at his attributes differently.

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yes that is exactly so about Jonathan, because in your tactic if you want something to happen on the wings you must have someone like Jonathan on the wing back

regarding the posts i think that is important not to waste someone good at man marking on the posts so i put two of my worst players defending wise there, the idea is to prevent them from trying to man mark when they lack the ability to do so

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Good informative thread here, well done :thup:

Personally I'm not an advocate of OIs but I haven't a problem with people who are, they're a huge part of the game that most people can use to further better their tactic. Personally I don't like to detract from initial plan by adding in OIs so I tend to not bother with them.

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Good informative thread here, well done :thup:

Personally I'm not an advocate of OIs but I haven't a problem with people who are, they're a huge part of the game that most people can use to further better their tactic. Personally I don't like to detract from initial plan by adding in OIs so I tend to not bother with them.

Hmm, whilst i respect that everyone has an opinion, and appreciate the thanks, i think on OI you might misinterpret them.

Now, fair play, you might be managing Barca or Bayern, but if not, then your almsot certainly missing something. There is not a club side in the world, in real life, beyond those 2, who havent used "OI". Think Mourinho puting Luiz and Matic in place to constantly close down Toure. Or even Real v Barca early this season, Ancelloti put Sergio Ramos in to tightly mark Messi (a bad idea, which failed, but you get the idea!)

I also think the concept of "it detracts from my initial plan" can be a misconception. If you take my example above, in the Fiorentina v Milan game, OI had a great impact. And yet all it was, was to show wingers onto the weaker foot. Im pretty sure that couldnt be seen to change my own tactic/formation/plan or indeed impact how my team sets up?

Sorry - not meaning to pick on you or criticise, i just think thats an example of where people perhaps disgard something for the wrong reason :)

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Personally I'm not an advocate of OIs but I haven't a problem with people who are, they're a huge part of the game that most people can use to further better their tactic. Personally I don't like to detract from initial plan by adding in OIs so I tend to not bother with them.

Great thread, Jambo. Pre-match analysis and use of OI's and PI's have worked well for me particularly when I am not the favorite to win the match. In response to JDownie, I agree about certain things such as keeping an eye on getting pulled out of shape, etc. But I don't find that showing onto a weaker foot does that, for example, and imo that's always advisable to use against an inverted winger. In regards to an "initial plan", I enjoy using the scouting reports, and my initial plan begins there, not just with a tactic and TI's. Seems that you'd certainly want to change something at least if you were up against Arsenal compared to Stoke, etc. If you have quality enough players then sure, you can probably just get away with it, but I still prefer the immersion of using the reports and properly adjusting to the opposition.

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Hmm, whilst i respect that everyone has an opinion, and appreciate the thanks, i think on OI you might misinterpret them.

Now, fair play, you might be managing Barca or Bayern, but if not, then your almsot certainly missing something. There is not a club side in the world, in real life, beyond those 2, who havent used "OI". Think Mourinho puting Luiz and Matic in place to constantly close down Toure. Or even Real v Barca early this season, Ancelloti put Sergio Ramos in to tightly mark Messi (a bad idea, which failed, but you get the idea!)

I also think the concept of "it detracts from my initial plan" can be a misconception. If you take my example above, in the Fiorentina v Milan game, OI had a great impact. And yet all it was, was to show wingers onto the weaker foot. Im pretty sure that couldnt be seen to change my own tactic/formation/plan or indeed impact how my team sets up?

Sorry - not meaning to pick on you or criticise, i just think thats an example of where people perhaps disgard something for the wrong reason :)

Well, the likes of showing someone onto a different foot is a valid point - it doesn't detract too much. I was meaning more with regards to Closing Down and Marking Tight - this naturally creates space left in other areas where, for example, the LB should be but he's not 10 yards out of position marking/closing down the opposition winger.

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Talking about OI's, my take on the matter was - if a player has pace to burn, it'd be dangerous to close him down as he can easily turn and leave you for dead? Hazard is a difficult one to play against as he has no weak foot and is extremely quick, so I tend to just ask my fullbacks to clatter him!

My belief is that, when up against extremely dangerous, extremely quick and agile wide players, it's best to avoid closing them down and to show them to the outside.

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Well, the likes of showing someone onto a different foot is a valid point - it doesn't detract too much. I was meaning more with regards to Closing Down and Marking Tight - this naturally creates space left in other areas where, for example, the LB should be but he's not 10 yards out of position marking/closing down the opposition winger.

Show them on to a different foot has an effect too in my opinion, in fact I am pretty sure I have seen it happen. Like in your 4-4-3 thread which I have been following,enjoying, and using, you like your team to press, and it works really well most of the time with the high line. You tell your team to show a player on to another foot, they tend to stand off the player you have chosen, in an attempt to force them the direction they want, rather than press them. It can work quite well in certain situations, but against tricky players they run rings round you. Not trying to take away from the op either, I am kind of agreeing with him also, you need to put some thought in to OI's not just use them willy nilly, they still need to be used with the effect of the overall system in mind.

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Oh my days! This thread has literally fixed everything that needed fixing in my football manager mentality! I've always left my assistant to set opposition instructions until reading this and my team have always struggled to replicate the way I want them to play, simply following a few ideas on here (only setting OI for key players) I've managed to go from about 4th with Arsenal to winning the league in the first season. It's not perfect but it's a damn sight better than it was!

Thank you so much for showing me the way!

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Glad to hear that janesy20!

I need to go back and revisit a few of these things in my own game! I keep conceding from set pieces which is costing me my chances of promotion!

I have been puting into practice some of the attribute matching. Tricky trying to find wingbacks who can finish at the conference level............

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