Starting again - the 4231 project.

[Sussex Hammer]

My other thread got into a bit of a mess due to me fannying about tactics wise so I have started this new one absolutely determined to get a 4231 right.

I have started a new game with the new patch so only playing friendlies at the moment but things look ok football wise with this starting out tactic. Very much a plain base to work on as time goes on.

I actually started with Nolan as a SS but changed him to an attacking midfielder and for some bizarre reason he actually gets into far better goalscoring positions it seems as an AM. He rushes past the striker and onto through balls, which I assumed a SS would do, but as an AM he seems a lot more potent and also better defensively as a AM.

This however has slightly thrown me on the ideal philosophy to play. I have been looking at the 12 step guide and because I had a DLP, BWM and SS I played a Balanced philosophy. Now with only two specialist roles I am wondering about playing fluid?

I know some are not fans of the BWM certainly in the previous patch but in my opening games I find that it has out performed the CM or BBM and Diame as a BWM has actually broken forward to score goals.

My biggest confusion however is how to get the best out of the wide men. The IF seems to act like an IF in this patch but again I know many have a preference for two wingers. Playing an IF though on the left I am trying then to vacate space to allow the left back to drive up the wing, I can't see an option to have only one side use the overlap but if there is one I think it would be of great use on the left. Pointless on the right as that would be counter productive with an attacking winger.

Defensively however it is a bit shaky. I started out having a drop deeper shout but I do find it defends better in this patch without that shout certainly with these instructions.

The only individual instruction I have is asking the DLF to move into channels.

So any advice to improve this would be appreciated as I am also thinking about an away version so thoughts would be welcome on that because playing big, slower forwards may not allow me to use a deep counter attacking base>>??

[Powello]

I would have the LB as a wing back and tell him to stay wide and get further forward, That would give you the effect you want

[SnUrF]

I would have the LB as a wing back and tell him to stay wide and get further forward, That would give you the effect you want

Or perhaps try just the WB(A) without the instructions for starters (KISS), as the WB(A) has dribble more and cross from byline instructions set as a default, that might do the trick. But if it doesn't do the trick then do try the added instructions Powello mentioned.

-SnUrF

[RTHerringbone]

I'd be interested to hear how that midfield combination gets on (I prefer two more static players in a 4-2-3-1).

Also intrigued to hear about any Mentality changes for certain games, because West Ham arguably can't dominate possession in an awful lot of games, and that is what the Control Mentality lends itself to.

[Powello]

Or perhaps try just the WB(A) without the instructions for starters (KISS), as the WB(A) has dribble more and cross from byline instructions set as a default, that might do the trick. But if it doesn't do the trick then do try the added instructions Powello mentioned.

-SnUrF

AH yeah good thinking, tweak slowly and see what works

[SnUrF]

I'd be interested to hear how that midfield combination gets on (I prefer two more static players in a 4-2-3-1).

Also intrigued to hear about any Mentality changes for certain games, because West Ham arguably can't dominate possession in an awful lot of games, and that is what the Control Mentality lends itself to.

The protection for the CDs seems quite weak as the midfielders are in the CM strata and only one of them actually holds his position.

Also for the Control Mentality, as RT already stated it's about possession, and I'd add to that (and this is just my opinion) it's keeping possesion on the opposition half.

-SnUrF

[MakaveliPT]

I'm working on the same project although a bit different, started a new FMC carreer just to mess around, what i got thus far

I have Coutinho the AP roaming into interior positions so he ends up usually close to the AS position, my issue so far with the attacking movements is that my number 10 doesn't give enough space to our AS, he goes into the box too quick, too often, tried with a F9 with a N10 behind him but same thing happened, the F9 was always too eager to get his ass into the box, so i'm having a bit of trouble with the partnership.

Defense seems well so far as well, any suggestion for the attacking duo would be nice. My idea is that the striker pulls the defense when he comes back creating space behind it for the AMC to move in, and since trequartista goes into the box so often i thought a F9 with a trequartista should work, but nothing awesome happened yet

[Powello]

DLF with moves into channels maybe

[SnUrF]

And BTW SH, why left footed Downing on the right side as a winger? To give space for Armero on the left flank (by having and inside forward there)?

-SnUrF

[Sussex Hammer]

And BTW SH, why left footed Downing on the right side as a winger? To give space for Armero on the left flank (by having and inside forward there)?

-SnUrF

Ha ha, Had couple of injuries so I played him there and he scored two!! BFS plays him on the right and Jarvis on the left which I have always found bizarre and yet I have done the same!!

I'm aware that after dominance in friendlies this may all go belly up!! I did in a previous thread have two CM's that were both on defend but someone said that I had no attacking threat there, "a bit static" , so I guess I can't win! ;-)

I must confess I am not too comfortable with a control strategy because as you say it is West Ham, however it's been doing ok in the friendlies. Only other option really for home games certainly is standard would you agree?

Plus would you say the balanced philosophy is ok or would you go with fluid or rigid?

I in the last game went to a deeper counter, which I intend to try for tougher games, and bagged three goals with it, but it is easy in friendlies so I doubt it will be as effective against Man City away, but for your info this is it...

I'll try the wing back idea.

What role would you all suggest for Diame then? BWM Defend or CM defend? As I said the BWM support has been doing well but only in friendlies so far.

TBH ideally I would like to play a Home and Away version of this

---------GK---------

RB----CB---CB-----LB

----DM-------DM-----

MR------CM--------LM

----------CF----------

Basically a 4231 but with two DM's and three across the CM strata. however although it can be quite decent defensively it's bloody awful going forward. I have tried a higher line and three attacking roles across the CM strata but nothing I tried worked in an attacking sense which is quite strange because I read somewhere that the tactics screen shows the players "defensive positions">?

Plus the likes of Jarvis, Downing, J. Cole, Vaz Te etc don't seem to have as higher star ratings at LM and RM than they do as AMR and AML which is strange because of a mere few feet in position!!!

[Sussex Hammer]

I tell a lie. Just beat Olympiakos 5-2 with this after being 4-0 up at half time,. Must be the new patch!!!

[Sussex Hammer]

Well with the deep 4231 (above) I beat Spurs first game of the season 3-1. Was superb first half and I was 3 up and it could have been 5 so was understandably delighted. Spurs understandably changed things second half and I was struggling a little to keep them at bay although most of their shots came from outside the area. Tried just switching to a counter, defensive then contain but Spurs kept coming so any ideas on how to make this more defensive but to keep an attacking threat? Mentality change? Fluidity change?

The top two formations I am confident are ok for playing against weaker teams but the deep seems a lot more solid. Maybe for away games change wingers for wide midfielders?

Thoughts welcome.

[Cleon]

I like the shape in post 11 I used something morealess identical except the CM was a AMC and given a shadow striker role. The rest of the set up was the exact same though if I remember right.

To close the game out I'd have tried to keep hold and retain possession rather than dropping deeper if you was already under heavy pressure. Maybe lowered tempo, retain possession, play narrower and be less expressive would be the shouts I'd have used.

[Sussex Hammer]

I like the shape in post 11 I used something morealess identical except the CM was a AMC and given a shadow striker role. The rest of the set up was the exact same though if I remember right.

To close the game out I'd have tried to keep hold and retain possession rather than dropping deeper if you was already under heavy pressure. Maybe lowered tempo, retain possession, play narrower and be less expressive would be the shouts I'd have used.

Thanks Cleon. I think it's always a natural reaction to drop deeper (IRL as well) but I am aware I don't have quick forwards so counter attack seems counter productive.

The shape in post 11 is really the way I want to play, IMO it is the 4231.

Can you advise on fluidity for The Hammers and what the pros / cons are of wide midfielders over wingers and vice versa?

One other thing is the shape of the two DM's. Part of me wonders if the DLP should be as a support player on the right (even a Regista?) with the more defensive of the two on the left covering the full back, either a BWM, DM or Anchor Man all defend. The idea being that the DLP/Regista offers more support going forward rather than sitting deep. Thoughts?

[Sussex Hammer]

Just an update. The one other area the deeper 4231 can be better is passing around the box. It seems to work best on a standard mentality. Control, defensive and counter don't work with the settings set as they are.

The more advanced 4231 control makes lovely passing moves in and around the penalty area probably due to the more advanced midfield strata bit obviously isn't as defensively sound. There are a lack of passes in that advanced area with the deeper one so was wondering if more direct passes on the midfield was an idea or even pushing the defensive line up?

What was interesting is that I was 2-0 down against Arsenal and not in the game. I hassled opponents and got stuck in and got back to 2-2 by half time. Dominated the first 20 minutes of the second half yet couldn't put my chances away and got hit by a sucker punch from a corner in the 92nd minute. However hassle and get stuck in certainly worked rather than standing off. Maybe the legs just went.

[drevil1969]

As much as I hate to see West Ham play the way we do in real life, I have for a very long time been trying to replicate Sam Allardyces 19th century football into Fm and always failed, Of course who really wants to play that way. But you could argue that West Ham actually play percentage stuff and are defensive and hard to beat. So with that in mind in real terms perhasps the set up i tried to replicate before was wrong. I wanted a set up that launched balls forward that conceded virtually no chances. I think this may be the answer to what I have been trying to do on FM since fm12. It also helps that the match engine is so much better than over versions!

Point I have tried to make is, in a very long winded way is thanks Sussex Hammer for trying this and I am going to see what happens when I do the same sort of thing. I will see if I can make it Ultra Defensive though, conceding few chances (Let alone CCCs) and look to create 2-3 CCC per game, but that is asking alot! Some great ideas on here!!!

[llama3]

Allardyce is a man who tends to like playing to team's strengths - as opposed to specifically playing direct/aggressive football. He mixes it up as he needs to.

[drevil1969]

Thats very true Llama and the actual perception of him playing "launch" football is a little unfair. But he does set up his teams to be defensively extremely solid and seems to have a real dislike of conceding any chances! So in FM terms that is quite difficult to replicate, i think anyway. Its hard in terms of playing week in week out in FM to not concede, but then I am not particularly good at the game.

The point I was trying to make was that this set up by Sussex Hammer is the closest I have seen to how West Ham play. (and that I was envious he had got there first lol) Although for me the set up I would never have imagined and I think maybe a little thinking out of the box was done to get it set up like this! Great work!

[Sussex Hammer]

Not sure if that's a compliment on achieving crap football !!!!! Ha Ha...

Seriously. The two 4231's at the top are defensively flawed,. Understandable really because the front four are attacking minded and no matter what you do you cannot get a AML, AM, or AM R to track back properly it's just the nature of the ME. Granted it's better than FM12 and 13 but you get those players meandering back and then suddenly coming to life but it's a little to late. Although the irony is I was one down away at Man City, switched to the 4231 counter with three AM's and should have got something out of the game!

The deeper 4231 is definitely a lot more solid and the wide men do track back - but - don't expect to camp outside the oppositions area!! The only strategy I have it working at the moment is on standard. Counter is pointless because only one is up top and again defensive is a dangerous game because of that one up top. So to give more variety I am going to try and use team instructions rather than strategy. Eg a standard strategy with a higher or lower defensive line depending on circumstances.

[Sussex Hammer]

Close to giving up to be honest, not enjoying the game at all. From 1st place to bottom all AI teams seems to pass it around like Brazil. Not sure what Cleon had instruction wise on his 4231 but mine just leaks goals and doesn't score any which is not a good combination!! All roles seem to play the same as well. I can honestly not see a difference to how a DLP plays to how an Anchor man plays and wingers play the same as IF's and whatever role you give a striker I just can't see a difference or maybe it's just my players I don't know. Seriously not going to buy another FM after this.... I miss the sliders!!!

Any advice philosophy wise, shouts wise,, anything on the above 4231 would be appreciated before I go back to FM12!!!

[daoan]

Close to giving up to be honest, not enjoying the game at all. From 1st place to bottom all AI teams seems to pass it around like Brazil. Not sure what Cleon had instruction wise on his 4231 but mine just leaks goals and doesn't score any which is not a good combination!! All roles seem to play the same as well. I can honestly not see a difference to how a DLP plays to how an Anchor man plays and wingers play the same as IF's and whatever role you give a striker I just can't see a difference or maybe it's just my players I don't know. Seriously not going to buy another FM after this.... I miss the sliders!!!

Any advice philosophy wise, shouts wise,, anything on the above 4231 would be appreciated before I go back to FM12!!!

TBH I don't look at guides written by the mods here, they are as informed as we are and do not know more about the game, only SI staff do. (not to say that they're bad but not 100% accurate)

You don't need to balance your midfield or any of that non sense, even attacking players defend as well, just play with your team's strength and build around it. For attacking formations go with fluid, for defensive go rigid. 4231 is more attacking so fluid works best.

Don't use Benteke as a DLF support, he has poor work rate and poor teamwork. Use him as a Target Man Attack just like his attributes suggest.

4231 (CM strata) is never a defensively solid tactic simply because it utilizes 5 in the front half. The key strength of this tactic is ball retention, controlling the game and attacking relentlessly (that's how you defend).

If you don't have a team with high Decision, Creativity, Passing, Technique & First touch attributes (and by high I mean 14+), your 4231 CM strata will most likely backfire on you; you will lose the ball often, misplace passes and overall lose possession. If your attacking triangle involves a player with low key attributes mentioned then he will most likely not contribute much. Look at Barcelona, all their players have 14+ on the above-mentioned attributes, that's why ball retention works well for them.

[RTHerringbone]

TBH I don't look at guides written by the mods here, they are as informed as we are and do not know more about the game, only SI staff do. (not to say that they're bad but not 100% accurate).......Don't use Benteke as a DLF support, he has poor work rate and poor teamwork. Use him as a Target Man Attack just like his attributes suggest.

How do you envision that a lone Target Man on Attack would work?

Even if you ignore all of the things written by Mods or other users, the bottom line is that a lone Target Man is generally not very effective.

[THOG]

FWIW, not sure if that's what you're going for, but I'd interpret Allardyce's West Ham as a rather aggressive, rigid 4-4-1-1. The wide players are relied upon to pick up the ball in deeper positions and bring it forward while the centre forward is more of a traditional hold-up man up front. In your tactic, you're going to have Nolan and Downing pushing up as forwards with Borriello instructed to drop quite deep. This leaves the AML as the main link forward with Diame coming into a huge gulf of space in a role that doesn't give him a lot of tools to utilize it. I also personally wouldn't interpret Allardyce as using Counter against most opponents. The team defends well, but it's not really a matter of them sitting back and maintaining a highly disciplined structure unless they're playing a vastly superior side. They defend physically and aggressively to make up for the space they expose going forward, but they don't sit back with the ball in deep positions against teams like Villa and Norwich.

EDIT: You also need to mix up your mentality against different opponents if you want to get the best out of a team with a more limited skill set. The same tactic won't play the same way against every opponent because your opponents will play differently. If you play Counter against a side sitting back, the game is going to be very negative with both teams cautiously playing the ball out from their own half. If you play Counter against a team throwing numbers forward, the game is going to be extremely high tempo as they'll be hitting you hard and prompting you to counterattack quickly into all the space they leave behind.

[Sussex Hammer]

Sorry I posted an incorrect link which showed a totally different formation!!

I would absolutely love to play a 4411 but in this game a flat four in midfield is suicide,. No matter what you do roles and duties wise a flat midfield four won't track back enough leaving the back four horrifically exposed. Tried it with two DM's and that doesn't work either as it seems that the two DM's then have to play Hollywood balls to an AM or striker. Plus despite being told a DLF and a SS worked well it doesn't seem so for me and I would have thought Carroll and Nolan would have been a perfect combination. I have certainly given up on a TM as they seem well and truly nuked.

Personally I love the shape I had in post 11 but whilst not bad defensively it is woeful going forward. This is the problem I am having with FM at the moment. There are certain things that are an annoyance. Things like having to have a DM of some sort or you are scuppered defensively. Lone strikers are very difficult to get scoring especially as wing play seems non existent, at least in my case I just cannot get wingers to cross the ball. I have Carroll up top and Jarvis and Downing as wingers and they just don't cross the thing. Two up front and you are defensively light. Goals from corners have died a death. It's a tough old game to get right and score. Most of my goals at the moment are from direct free kicks!!

I am now toying with a 4141 very fluid with generic roles and just beat Swansea 2-0 away. I just think specialist roles are pretty pointless unless you have a top player to play them.

At least I seem to have improved my full backs by having them on automatic.

[THOG]

I would absolutely love to play a 4411 but in this game a flat four in midfield is suicide,.

It's really not. Disregarding my own experiences with the formation, if this were true, AI teams that played 4411 would struggle, but Dortmund, for example, frequently dominate the Bundesliga and tend to perform very well in the Champions League.

[Sussex Hammer]

It's really not. Disregarding my own experiences with the formation, if this were true, AI teams that played 4411 would struggle, but Dortmund, for example, frequently dominate the Bundesliga and tend to perform very well in the Champions League.

To be fair though I suspect Dortmund have better players than West Ham and also not being disrespectful to German football but it's a bit like Spain that there are only say three teams in it unlike the EPL where pretty much anyone can beat anyone on their day.

I would be interested to see how you would suggest setting up a 4411 to allow a strong bank of four across the middle?

[wwfan]

TBH I don't look at guides written by the mods here, they are as informed as we are and do not know more about the game, only SI staff do. (not to say that they're bad but not 100% accurate)

That's certainly not true for all of us.

@ Sussex Hammer: The best advice I could give you is learn how to adapt, at even a basic level, to match expectations and conditions. Even doing as little as dropping from standard to defend away against Chelsea, or from Standard to Control at home against Fulham (based on this year's EPL) will make a big difference. Switching between keep ball and direct play depending on scoreline can help, as can playing ugly football in poor conditions and pretty football in good ones.

You're post #15 is a good example of how you can get back into games by changing things up. What you are guilty of is assuming a tactic that works against one team will work against another (i.e. there's a magic tactic for your squad). You need to adapt for when you are the better or worse team until you are 100% confident in your squad (i.e. you have the right players for the right positions, they are good players for the division and they respect you). During that period of adaption, you'l make mistakes and lose matches you should have won, but you'll also begin to win points against the odds. Over time, you'll develop confidence in your decision making and your tactical nous. After that, I reckon you can play the same tactic for a good 60-75% of all matches and only change it for the few times they team isn't performing or the conditions make your preferred way of playing impossible.

[Sussex Hammer]

That's certainly not true for all of us.

@ Sussex Hammer: The best advice I could give you is learn how to adapt, at even a basic level, to match expectations and conditions. Even doing as little as dropping from standard to defend away against Chelsea, or from Standard to Control at home against Fulham (based on this year's EPL) will make a big difference. Switching between keep ball and direct play depending on scoreline can help, as can playing ugly football in poor conditions and pretty football in good ones.

You're post #15 is a good example of how you can get back into games by changing things up. What you are guilty of is assuming a tactic that works against one team will work against another (i.e. there's a magic tactic for your squad). You need to adapt for when you are the better or worse team until you are 100% confident in your squad (i.e. you have the right players for the right positions, they are good players for the division and they respect you). During that period of adaption, you'l make mistakes and lose matches you should have won, but you'll also begin to win points against the odds. Over time, you'll develop confidence in your decision making and your tactical nous. After that, I reckon you can play the same tactic for a good 60-75% of all matches and only change it for the few times they team isn't performing or the conditions make your preferred way of playing impossible.

Oh I totally agree with you. My problem at the moment is that certain players/positions are absolutely pointless. Carroll doesn't hold it up as a TM so some suggest a DLF which isn't much cop either. IF's perform exactly the same way as Wingers, Anchor men bizarrely close down ahead of my CM's, a midfield two in a 4231 is pathetic defensively whilst a deeper midfield across the CM strata is awful going forward.

Yes I have played a defensive strategy away at the big boys and get absolutely mullered and bizarrely find you concede less chances playing control. Yet you play control away at Man City and get a 1-1- draw in my case the following week control at home to Cardiff who have won one game all season results in a 2-0 home defeat!!

I don't know whether West Ham are better very fluid with generic roles or rigid with specialist roles? That's my big problem finding a solid base to start with.

I know the way I want to play. Ideally a 4231 like to the one in post 11. With Carroll holding it up and laying it off to supporting players or heading for goal. Wingers hitting Carroll and a late arriving Nolan in the box with fantastic crosses, with if possible Noble supplying the ammunition to the wingers. Away from home Carroll holding it up to allow support to reach him maybe flicking on headers to passing support players but it seems impossible.

[Sussex Hammer]

Here is a perfect example of the difficulties I am facing,. I found this shape whilst browsing online (nothing to do with me this tactic), someone had done one for FM13. I shuffled things around in my game utilising this shape. After 20 minutes I was 3-0 up against Everton with an Andy Carroll hat-trick. Two with his head and one with a side foot effort. Brilliant I thought because Andy Carroll as a TM has been a nightmare especially as a lone TM. Thing is the Assistant was telling me I had too bigger gap between the midfield and forwards. I see that as both forwards are set to attack. I suspect an entire back four set to defend is also probably not wise. However after tinkering with the AF and trying him out as a deeper lying forward/false 9/defensive forward and adjusting full back mentalities I ended up drawing 3-3 !!!

Next game I thought I would stick with that shape but got beaten in that. I then tried a few things like changing DLP for a CM because I am convinced that having a DLP changes the decision making of a wide man and I want that winger to cross the ball not play it short to a DLP but no matter what I try I am getting beat and cannot recreate that fantastic 20 minutes when the team played exactly the way I wanted them to play. I even tried going counter but two down after 10 minutes. Defending quite simply is hopeless and if you take away that support that Carroll has up top he doesn't get involved at all.

Going forward this is pretty decent but absolutely horrendous defensively and I have no idea whatsoever to tighten it up. I know what I would do IRL but that doesn't work in FM!!!

[Sussex Hammer]

Trying this out. Got a 9-o win in a friendly. I know that doesn't mean anything but at lease it got goals. Instructions on players only apply to the IF who has get further forward and goals were split between striker, IF and CM. For some reason I have been getting more goals from the striker by playing him in the right sided berth,. Morrison at RM has been excellent in pre season and plays better at RM rather than AMR. The half back is an experiment to try an add better cover. Strangely Diame plays better as a DLP than Noble does which I can't quite understand. Pass into space is to try a few risks against teams that pass the bus.

Any advice would be welcome.

[RTHerringbone]

I saw someone else deploy a half back in a "different" way to the standard application of it.

How does he position himself when he drops deep here? Does he shuffle across to be central between the DCs, or is he off centre and over to the DCL?

Also interested to hear how a Half Back and Cover Defender look when defending.

Your left side looks like it could be exploited quite easily. If one of your attacks breaks down, then Jarvis will be around the box, Nolan too, and Armero will be advanced up the flank. Keep an eye on it, and if you want to persist with that exact shape and a Half Back, then it may make sense to switch the DM Roles over, and set the DML to a Role which might offer more protection on that side.

EDIT - another think springs to mind. A DLP and HB will both drop deep when you have a goal kick. I would be nervous that if a team presses high against you, then your keeper might have to resort to long clearances which will invite unnecessary pressure. Potentially another reason to revisit those DM Roles. A DLP, Half Back and Regista will all demonstrate the behaviour of dropping into the DC line for a goal kick. I personally avoid these Roles because that's not what I want, and instead use Player Instructions to mould an Anchor Man or Defensive Midfielder Role into what I want.

[Rob4590]

A DLP, Half Back and Regista will all demonstrate the behaviour of dropping into the DC line for a goal kick. I personally avoid these Roles because that's not what I want, and instead use Player Instructions to mould an Anchor Man or Defensive Midfielder Role into what I want.

Can you clarify this RTH? ie what changes to the DM or Anchor roles would you make to EFFECTIVELY make them play like a DLP etc (without that dropping deep bit)?

Reason I ask is that my 4231 tactic (also for West Ham - but 6 years in) is built around my AMC (who is AP(S)) - but I have excellent MCs and DMCs who should be able to 'playmake' - but if I set one or both of them as a playmaker (as well as my AMC) then the tactic stops working as intended and the three of them simply play keep ball in the middle of the park, without any attacking incision.

I would assume it is likely to be adding instructions for More Risky and More Direct Passes and possibly changing the closing down instructions?

[RTHerringbone]

I would assume it is likely to be adding instructions for More Risky and More Direct Passes and possibly changing the closing down instructions?

Exactly this sort of stuff. Essentially just look at the non-Playmaker Roles available at DM, and then the Player Instructions available to those Roles (and also fiddle with Duties to see what PIs become available).

With regard to passing, I tend to leave it untouched as all the Playmaker Roles in FM essentially have 'Mixed' passing - they might play a short pass, or they might hit a long pass over the top.

Closing Down is a personal preference thing. With the deep 4-2-3-1 as an example, I might encourage the DM on the side of an attacking full back to Close Down More to cover any gaps on that side. The other DM (for me) should then be encouraged not to move so much from position in order to keep a bit of shape in that area.

EDIT - this sort of tweaking is also an excellent way of refining your strikers. You might want the ball to be directed to a particular forward over another in a two man forward line. If you use a default Target Man, he might not behave as you want, so you can tweak him to be more dynamic and behave more like another of the Striker Roles.

Some people tend to write this off as "having to work the system to break down the constraints of the TC". I disagree and think it is about creatively finding solutions.

[SnUrF]

Some people tend to write this off as "having to work the system to break down the constraints of the TC". I disagree and think it is about creatively finding solutions.

I don't know about creative solutions, but I think it would be a lot simpler to just us what ever role you want and tick target man box. Than go the other way round and use target man role and tweak multiple instructions.

-SnUrF

[RTHerringbone]

I don't know about creative solutions, but I think it would be a lot simpler to just us what ever role you want and tick target man box. Than go the other way round and use target man role and tweak multiple instructions.

-SnUrF

True, but that would then be inconsistent with how the translation of the old Playmaker tick box has been applied.

There are pros and cons for the old and new iterations of tick boxes. The current implementation seems more in keeping with the Role-centric nature of the Tactics Creator

How they currently manifest isn't necessarily set in stone for future version, but I'd be as surprised to see the return of tick boxes, as I would to see the return of sliders.

[Sussex Hammer]

I saw someone else deploy a half back in a "different" way to the standard application of it.

How does he position himself when he drops deep here? Does he shuffle across to be central between the DCs, or is he off centre and over to the DCL?

Also interested to hear how a Half Back and Cover Defender look when defending.

Your left side looks like it could be exploited quite easily. If one of your attacks breaks down, then Jarvis will be around the box, Nolan too, and Armero will be advanced up the flank. Keep an eye on it, and if you want to persist with that exact shape and a Half Back, then it may make sense to switch the DM Roles over, and set the DML to a Role which might offer more protection on that side.

EDIT - another think springs to mind. A DLP and HB will both drop deep when you have a goal kick. I would be nervous that if a team presses high against you, then your keeper might have to resort to long clearances which will invite unnecessary pressure. Potentially another reason to revisit those DM Roles. A DLP, Half Back and Regista will all demonstrate the behaviour of dropping into the DC line for a goal kick. I personally avoid these Roles because that's not what I want, and instead use Player Instructions to mould an Anchor Man or Defensive Midfielder Role into what I want.

I put the Half Back on the left because people advised to use a defensive role on the same side as an attacking full back. I would prefer to use a supporting full back but again advice seems to point towards one full back support and one attack (something to do with playing between the lines). It seems a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't at times although it's my first year using the TC so things are difficult to balance at times. I must be the only person who thinks the sliders were easier!!

I am trying the half back out because all other DM roles have been pretty useless IMO. Anchor Man goes charging up the pitch closing down yet that's not what an anchor man should be doing. I have checked PPM's on various players and there isn't anything out of the ordinary to make them charge forward. A plain old DM seems a bit lost when I play him. A Regista doesn't seem to work and a BWM is like an Anchor Man on Red Bull and Acid!! Ideally I want a Makelele/Mikell type of role that Chelsea have produced so well but that's an Anchor Man and it just doesn't seem to screen well enough hence why an attempt at using a HB so when the WBL bombs forward the HB retreats and it becomes a solid three in defence. I have seen him dropping sometimes but again at times he joins the attack.

DLP is another one I am not too sure of. As I say Diame plays better there than Noble and that shouldn't be the case. Noble is a better passer and decision maker with more flair so go figure!! Also I do wonder if having a playmaker of any kind actually reduces a players decision to cross the ball which is what I want because in the 9-0 friendly both Nolan and his replacement Cahill scored headers and the forwards have been scoring headers from that right sided berth. With a playmaker may a winger/IF look to play in the playmaker rather than cross or pass forward themselves? In layman's terms I wonder if any DLP means your team will pass backwards and sideways more?

Those two deep midfield roles obviously need a supporting player and a defensive player so how about just two DM's defend on the left and support on the right? I do wonder about attacking/support roles. Do you need a support role on the right to support attacking players in Nolan and Morisson or an attacking role on the left supporting Armero? I get the impression that one way you will improve the attacking side but decrease defending support whereas the other way you will defend better and yet lose attacking prowess. A fine balancing act indeed!!

This is also an issue I have with any striker. As I said in that tried out 442 above from another site Carroll bombed in a 20 minute hat-trick yet he was on a TM A. Then of course with two strikers on attack you have huge gaps so I tried the other striker on some sort of support role but it didn't work. Both an AF A and TMA worked brilliantly together but defensively the team was shot. Change to support role for the left sided striker you defend better but lose the attacking threat. This is the issue I have with a lone striker. I want Carroll attacking crosses yet with an attacking role he doesn't offer much support but with a supporting role he doesn't attack the crosses as well. Also you can assign a winger to cross near post/far post/centre etc but you can't ask your striker to attack near post/far post etc. Very frustrating. I would therefore be interested in what role you would play a lone forward like Carroll and how to get the best out of him?

[Sussex Hammer]

I'm calling it a day I think and going back to FM12. I know Pre Season is no indication but several good results and good performances. First game of season away to Chelsea (I know it's a tough game) but I'm two down after 20 minutes my players just give it away, Chelsea's players never do! They have 20 shots to my 2 and one was an open goal which my striker missed and the other was just shot straight at the keeper when it was easier to score. Changed things around and their third goal came when Diame made a slide tackle on his ass with no-one near him and toe poked it straight through to their striker. Defending is hopeless players will just not do what instructed and attacking wise it's a shambles couple that with an AI that never gives it away it's a chore now rather than an enjoyable experience. I have tried everything and all positions just play the same.

[shaunwwfc]

I'm calling it a day I think and going back to FM12. I know Pre Season is no indication but several good results and good performances. First game of season away to Chelsea (I know it's a tough game) but I'm two down after 20 minutes my players just give it away, Chelsea's players never do! They have 20 shots to my 2 and one was an open goal which my striker missed and the other was just shot straight at the keeper when it was easier to score. Changed things around and their third goal came when Diame made a slide tackle on his ass with no-one near him and toe poked it straight through to their striker. Defending is hopeless players will just not do what instructed and attacking wise it's a shambles couple that with an AI that never gives it away it's a chore now rather than an enjoyable experience. I have tried everything and all positions just play the same.

Give FMC a go before you give up. It will be an easier and more flexible way for you to perfect your tactic. Once you have, then give it another go.

You know you don't want to give up yet.

[Sussex Hammer]

Give FMC a go before you give up. It will be an easier and more flexible way for you to perfect your tactic. Once you have, then give it another go.

You know you don't want to give up yet.

You are right, this damn game ain't going to beat me!!

Next game tried a 4141 against Liverpool. Going back to simplicity and trying to get more solid. Was 1-0 down with a ball over the top so changed my anchor man to a Half Back and did really well from then on in winning 3-1. Noble as a CM S was immense so I'll do away with trying him constantly as a DLP!!!

The only area that I found a little lacking was the left hand side but I do only have a winger on support there. Aware that I am pushing up and hassling but it beats having the opposition merrily pass it about in front of your goal. I would rather have a go than lie down and wait to be picked off.

One thing I cannot decide on though is the lone striker role up top. All my guys are big centre forwards and I have constantly tried a TM S or a DLF S which doesn't seem to do the trick so would be interested to see how you would use a big lone forward and whether you would leave him static or moving to the channels?

Also any ideas on screenshots as ALT/F9 doesn't work for me.

[shaunwwfc]

Well for a start it is lacking support. I will screenshot my tactic for you tomorrow which is similar In style to what you are looking for but if playing with a lone striker there needs to be someone in the lines to pick pockets created by the TM. You also have limited ammunition. You would be better off playing an advanced forward if your set on that particular shape because at least he will offer more in terms of movement and utilising the channels. Or unless your big man up top is the hulk with super glue it simply isn't going to stick. Abandon that shape.

Your also using the wrong personnel IMO. With West Ham you need to get Jarvis and Downing on the ball and to float crosses into Carroll. Consider using those two as advanced wingers with exploit the flanks/clear ball to flanks, get early crosses in and to float those to Carroll with Nolan perhaps as your box to box MF and there is your attacking threat. It is slightly percentage football, but to hell your playing to the teams strengths. Defensively you seem to have the right idea although I would have my full backs a little more conservative.

For you though FMC, even to experiment with for now should be the way to go. I always experiment there first before I launch a proper save.

[Sussex Hammer]

Well for a start it is lacking support. I will screenshot my tactic for you tomorrow which is similar In style to what you are looking for but if playing with a lone striker there needs to be someone in the lines to pick pockets created by the TM. You also have limited ammunition. You would be better off playing an advanced forward if your set on that particular shape because at least he will offer more in terms of movement and utilising the channels. Or unless your big man up top is the hulk with super glue it simply isn't going to stick. Abandon that shape.

Your also using the wrong personnel IMO. With West Ham you need to get Jarvis and Downing on the ball and to float crosses into Carroll. Consider using those two as advanced wingers with exploit the flanks/clear ball to flanks, get early crosses in and to float those to Carroll with Nolan perhaps as your box to box MF and there is your attacking threat. It is slightly percentage football, but to hell your playing to the teams strengths. Defensively you seem to have the right idea although I would have my full backs a little more conservative.

For you though FMC, even to experiment with for now should be the way to go. I always experiment there first before I launch a proper save.

Oddly enough I have tried with all you suggest although I may have not been executing correctly. Yes I would love to play a 451/433 or even a 4411 with Nolan joining Carroll for flick ons and knock downs. However :

4141 as above - An AF will not work with this shape as you get the Assistant crying out that there are big gaps between midfield and attack which is irritating because IRL I think Carroll is an A TM.

4411 - Not strong enough in the middle. With a mid table side it is very difficult to use a flat 4 in midfield as you get swamped by teams using three in there.

451/433 - I just can't get the attacking AML/AMR to track back in any shape or form (issue with AM strata players for year's in FM IMO) Also I seem to have more luck with crossing (especially the MR on attack) with a ML or MR. I just cannot get a AML and AMR to click. Morrison and Jarvis play really well as a MR but hopeless at AMR which is bizarre. Maybe they are too far forward at times.

Crossing generally is very tough to get right especially with one up top and float crosses are pretty shocking as they arrive with no pace whereas drilled crosses are along the floor. Why can't we have drilled crosses in the air?!!??! I did get Carroll firing in that 442 above (the orange team) but I was 3-0 up after 20 minutes - Carroll hat trick and two with his head - but Everton were 3-3 by half time dues to probably a four across the midfield.

As for your comments on full backs personally I would play one on defend and maybe one on support or even both on defend with "two" attacking wingers but apparently this is frowned upon in the 12 step guide due to giving support between the lines or something? It really feels like you are playing against the ME deficiencies at times!!

Ideally the way I want to play is two attacking wingers delivering to Carroll and Nolan with Noble pulling the strings with a BFS sturdy no nonsense defence.

How about :

----------GK D----------

FB S---CD D---CD D-----FB S

-----------HB D---------

------CM S---BB M S---

W A--------------------W A

------------?------------

I have put a question mark for the striker as ideally I want a forward with an attack duty but again all relevant advice on a lone forward seems to point to having him on support.

[PhroX]

Personally, I tend to ignore everything the AssMan says. In my last game yesterday, he was complaining about my strikers being isolated as well as us not having enough possesion, depsite the fact we'd created 5 CCCs and were 4-1 ahead....

Regarding the tactic you say you want to play, the one problem that immediately leaps out at me is that whoever and however you play the striker as, he's going to be completely isolated and basically you're expecting him to single-handedly score all your goals (which, incidentally is something I quite often see with that style of tactic IRL, particularly when a team is playing poorly). Your wide men stay wide, you're midfield is predominantly defensive with no-one really pushing forward (from my experience, the BBM is a defensive player who will occasionally push forward as opposed to what many people think a BBM should be). At the very least you're going to want a proper runner from the centre of midfield (i.e. MC(a)) to give the forward some support.

That said, I'm not sure why you'd want to change away from the 4-1-4-1 you posted in post #39. It looks pretty much exactly what you want - aggessive wide men (wingers are more attack minded even on support from what I know) who'll stay wide and put in crosses, support from midfield runners, with a forward who will look to hold the ball up, as well as get some goals himself.

[shaunwwfc]

4141 as above - An AF will not work with this shape as you get the Assistant crying out that there are big gaps between midfield and attack which is irritating because IRL I think Carroll is an A TM.

Don't take everything on board that your assistant says. If that was the case we would go into FMeditor and employ an Assistant with 20 tactical knowledge, and even then he would still get things wrong. You really should not pay too much attention to what advice he gives because that is all it is. Advice. Personally a untick that function, I am the boss, it is my system and I play how I want to.

4411 - Not strong enough in the middle. With a mid table side it is very difficult to use a flat 4 in midfield as you get swamped by teams using three in there.

451/433 - I just can't get the attacking AML/AMR to track back in any shape or form (issue with AM strata players for year's in FM IMO) Also I seem to have more luck with crossing (especially the MR on attack) with a ML or MR. I just cannot get a AML and AMR to click. Morrison and Jarvis play really well as a MR but hopeless at AMR which is bizarre. Maybe they are too far forward at times.

What are you basing this on though? You seem to be in the frustration zone of givning up after less than 15 games. All those systems are perfectly fine when implemented correctly.

My shape is the following:

GK

FB (D) CD (S) BPD (D) FB (S)

DLP (S) A (D)

W (A) W (A)

T (A)

TM (A)

There are some individual tweaks in there such as wingers staying out wide and asking the treq to dribble more. I play on the Counter/Rigid as I feel those compliment each other best. I pass into space, exploit the flanks and play out of defence as I dont want my centre halves just lumping it aimlessly. I also apply be more disciplined because I have a specific shape and plan in mind and I want them to stick to that. I highly recommend that.

Playing your wingers as Defensive Wingers is also a good option I use in away games and games in which there is even more emphasis on the defence, they track back well and break from deep if they have good defensive stats and mental stats (Jarvis isn't too bad in this area) they will put a good shift in.

[Sussex Hammer]

Slightly change approach in the new season and gone for a 451 that seems to have started well. Have abandoned any ideas of a deeper, stand off style approach as it is too open and have adopted a more aggressive work like style. For away games I tinker between a counter and standard approach. Counter worked really well away against Cardiff but not so well against Man City away although I did only lose 1-0 and had two great chances. Mind you they had more than a few, Kameni played a blinder in goal for me!!

The one area I am still not 100% comfortable is up to with the striker and AML. DF works well at home but would he be too withdrawn in a counter system? And I have tinkered with the AML as a DW. Thoughts?

Results so far :

Spurs H 3-1

WBA A 0-0

SUND H 3-0

MC A 0-1

CARDIFF A 2-0

[Sussex Hammer]

Just an update. Have totally settled with an attacking philosophy and it is doing pretty well first season taking me to joint top in December. Still early days but attacking seems to be working for me. I was one down against Arsenal away and was getting a bit over run so pulled the BBM back into the right DM strata as a DM and won 2-1 so now use that switch if I am finding it difficult against top teams or away. Otherwise the 451 is doing pretty well.

[Guest]

Jesus H, talk about turning a corner. Well done!

[Sussex Hammer]

Jesus H, talk about turning a corner. Well done!

Tell me about it!! Thank you. Early days and morale is good at present so things can and probably will change!!

The key is possibly I stopped tinkering trying to find the perfect performance. It's odd but IRL it's easy to see strengths and weaknesses in management so I started to look at strengths and weaknesses in FM a bit more. For example I was trying not to lose away from home rather than trying to win. It's human nature to sit deep and try and hit stronger teams on the counter but it occurred to me that I have big slow lumps up front so a counter attacking style won't work as it can require pace to make it work. I was also trying to press but sit deep. Counter intuitive. Ideally I would love to allow the opposition to have it in their half and then press when they enter my half but it's difficult to replicate so attacking and press high IMO is less risky than defending and standing off Had a few problems coping with a Darren Bent or likewise with pace but so far it's not been too bad.

Have to say though my only signing Kameni has probably gained me half a dozen points.

[shirajzl]

That approach is guaranteed to fail in second season when teams start playing more cautiously against you. You're pushing really high up and aggressively, which exploits space well now that others team go all in on you. When that changes in second season, they'll sit deeper and murder you on the counter. Been there with Stoke in one of my saves.

[Sussex Hammer]

That approach is guaranteed to fail in second season when teams start playing more cautiously against you. You're pushing really high up and aggressively, which exploits space well now that others team go all in on you. When that changes in second season, they'll sit deeper and murder you on the counter. Been there with Stoke in one of my saves.

Cross that bridge when I come to it... ;-)

[Sussex Hammer]

Was hoping someone may be able to advise on one of the positions above.

The winger attack berth has been fantastic whoever plays there especially Downing who has scored a lot of goals. However the weakest link seems to be the IFS on the other side with Jarvis/Cole/Morrison making little impact although if they play on the right they play very well.

IFS is to try and allow space for the attacking full back and of course it seems standard practice to mix and match on either side so whilst in theory another winger/attack would be perfect although I suspect that wouldn't work in practice.

So any thoughts on whether it's a role/duty issue or a player issue would be appreciated.