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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2014 - Update 14.3.1 Update FEEDBACK THREAD

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You'd be suprised how many people pointed out this flaw during FM12. Most people seems happy with it because it benefitted them much more (remember the days of 70 goal a season poachers like Carlos Fierro)

I've been on these forums since 2006 and unless the many discussions pointing out lack of collision detection were in private or something then no, not many people at all were even aware of it. I was one of the loudest in complaining about the through ball to fast striker pattern. Didn't have many agree with me I can tell you.

And still, the game was fine and balanced if you played it normally. As I said, I've never had a striker score 40 goals on any version of FM. And I've had plenty of pacey ones over the years. I never had to actively handicap myself either, although I do always aim for a balanced spread of goals. Getting your striker to score 70 or 100 goals required a specific set up that only made sense for just that purpose.

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Oh how I miss the Fierro - Torres (Erick) partnership of yesteryear. Guaranteed 100+ goals a season right there...

Haha, yep, and there was me sitting on 45 goals a season if my striker played at least 50 games.

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Getting your striker to score 70 or 100 goals required a specific set up that only made sense for just that purpose.

No it didn't.

I was just bored and stuck three up front, and then the use of quick passing and through balls was part of my general philosophy, then it worked.

Whilst I do agree with you that there weren't that many complaining about non-collision specifically, there were a lot of people complaining about how boring it was to have plug-and-play tactics, myself included on sortitoutsi.

FM12 was fun for me until I realised I could win every match. I didn't have the discipline to say, OK, I'll only use 4-4-2, as I hadn't set out to find a cheating tactic so it was hard to draw the line between what was and what wasn't.

FM 13 and FM 14 have been entirely different, and about 99% of people who think they aren't as good just wanted to win all the time. They can make their own decision as to what they want in a game, but they are entirely wrong in the many comments suggesting these last 2 are broken.

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Of course 13 and 14 aren't broken. That's not even the point. But don't be surprised when one of the future versions introduces a revolutionary improvement that makes some current mechanics also seem as obsolete as the non-collision-detection ME's. Like a lot of the stuff that deals with defensive line movement, marking, pressing and physical defending. What will happen then is that there are going to be lots of people that will point out how the lack of that revolutionary improvement made the current generation ME really bad (or broken) as if it was a widely recognized fact right now. While it will actually all be in hindsight.

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While it will actually all be in hindsight.

I get what you are getting at, but for me it can't happen on the same scale, as winning endlessly on 13 and 14 is so much harder.

I hope that in future it will get harder still, so your point isn't wrong, but given the fairly realistic random losing that happens already, I don't see such a big leap occuring as from 12>13 ever again, as then the game would have moved into always losing.

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If everything has to be on a winning/losing scale then sure. But there would have been other ways of making the game harder than collision detection. It's not about how hard it is but rather how intuitive the process of tactics and training feels to use and how much the game played in the ME represents what you see on the real pitch. There are much bigger strides yet to be taken than collision detection.

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If everything has to be on a winning/losing scale then sure. But there would have been other ways of making the game harder than collision detection. It's not about how hard it is but rather how intuitive the process of tactics and training feels to use and how much the game played in the ME represents what you see on the real pitch. There are much bigger strides yet to be taken than collision detection.

I agree, I use winning and losing as they surely naturally from from it being harder if that hardness has come as a natural (and desirable) by-product of realism

(but I think we have moved away from the points we disagreed on into territory where we largely agree)

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If everything has to be on a winning/losing scale then sure. But there would have been other ways of making the game harder than collision detection. It's not about how hard it is but rather how intuitive the process of tactics and training feels to use and how much the game played in the ME represents what you see on the real pitch. There are much bigger strides yet to be taken than collision detection.

Introducing collision avoidance wasn't just a matter of preventing the IF-Poacher-IF exploit but also establishing the groundwork for improving areas you mentioned above: pressing, physicality in defending, the importance of interpositional cover and the benefits of a hard-working midfield core. As those improvements come, logical and realistic decisions will yield ever more noticeable rewards, and I think people will be justified in preferring a game where there's an increasingly clear and predictable risk/reward balance for every decision and less of a sense that you can find some optimal middle ground by spending months experimenting with counterintuitive combinations of instructions. This is why many people now strongly prefer FM14 over FM12, and it's why they'll prefer FM16 over FM14. Progress makes everything relative.

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So, just started a new save and the workload is light, some complain it's too light although it's on medium (team work HIGH and tactics on 50%). What is really frustrating me is that i am still in august and 4 key players of mine got injured for months during training, players with low levels on injury proneness.

How's this possible?

There are alot more injuries now especially if you play hassle opponent as soon as I stopped injuries decrease also if training is too light players won't be able to cope with intense matches.. that's from what i've seen in real life (if you usually train for 1200M and run a marathon each week your body won't cope) I believe average is the best I only ever use low if I have fixture conjestion

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Ronaldo scoring 15-20 goals per season is as unrealistic as an average FM12 talent scoring 100. Even more unrealistic, since it is empiricaly proved that he scores twice as many. Managed by AI, so it's not my tactics, or anything. Game is just not as good as you claim it to be.

Also, new tactic system gives us far less control than previous. It is a bit more realistic, but supstituting 20 modes of width, def. line, or passing with 3-5? No, it is not progress, it is downgrade.

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Ronaldo scoring 15-20 goals per season is as unrealistic as an average FM12 talent scoring 100. Even more unrealistic, since it is empiricaly proved that he scores twice as many. Managed by AI, so it's not my tactics, or anything. Game is just not as good as you claim it to be.

Also, new tactic system gives us far less control than previous. It is a bit more realistic, but supstituting 20 modes of width, def. line, or passing with 3-5? No, it is not progress, it is downgrade.

You never had 20 modes. There was no actual visible difference between 19 and 20, for example.

and you have more than that, since the D-line is also relative to mentality.

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Perhaps it was not visible, but it was an option. You do have more than 3-5 all together, but last year you had 20 modes available for every mentality. It is considerably more than this. And, saying that there is no difference between 19 and 20 means that there is no difference between 18 and 19, 17 and 18, so, basically, 17 and 20 are the same. Or at least that's how that slider was translated into new system.

I'm not saying idea is completely bad, just that realization could have been way better.

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Ronaldo scoring 15-20 goals per season is as unrealistic as an average FM12 talent scoring 100. Even more unrealistic, since it is empiricaly proved that he scores twice as many. Managed by AI, so it's not my tactics, or anything. Game is just not as good as you claim it to be.

Also, new tactic system gives us far less control than previous. It is a bit more realistic, but supstituting 20 modes of width, def. line, or passing with 3-5? No, it is not progress, it is downgrade.

I would say that's really not anywhere near as unrealistic as an average talent scoring 100 goals. It's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a manager could misuse him. In any case, it's very much possible to get Ronaldo scoring as he does in real life, and if he tends to underperform under the AI, it has more to do with the tactics that AI Ancelotti tends to use as opposed to the ME. AI tactics are certainly an area that could use some improvement, but that was an even bigger issue with prior versions. As I recall, in FM12, Barca would play with a deep defensive line due to a researcher error with Messi and Iniesta out wide hitting long crosses to Villa. I'll take a slightly underperforming Ronaldo over that.

As for substituting 21 slider settings with 3-5... the TC still uses the full range of all the old sliders. It's not limited to 3-5 options. Rather, you have a baseline group of settings established by mentality that you can then modify in a number of ways using a wide variety of instructions. In any case, the effects of the sliders was a question of controlling tendencies and probabilities in relation to how your opponent is playing, which a lot of people didn't understand, so unless you watch hundreds of hours of the same tactic on full match, there's basically no way you could identify the practical effect of a 1 or 2 position adjustment to something like width or passing. That being the case, nothing has really been lost or "downgraded" other than a lot of misconceptions about what various sliders actually did.

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I would say that's really not anywhere near as unrealistic as an average talent scoring 100 goals. It's certainly well within the realm of possibility that a manager could misuse him. In any case, it's very much possible to get Ronaldo scoring as he does in real life, and if he tends to underperform under the AI, it has more to do with the tactics that AI Ancelotti tends to use as opposed to the ME. AI tactics are certainly an area that could use some improvement, but that was an even bigger issue with prior versions. As I recall, in FM12, Barca would play with a deep defensive line due to a researcher error with Messi and Iniesta out wide hitting long crosses to Villa. I'll take a slightly underperforming Ronaldo over that.

It's not just Ancelotti, in my save he was sacked, with Mourinho, Ronaldo scored 23 in all competitions. When Mourinho was Real Madrid manager, Ronaldo scored 50+ every season. I have to disagree about slightly underperforming Ronaldo. The same goes for Messi. It's 14.3 that made them so average. Before it, they were quite "normal". This patch fixed few bugs, but created new ones. First touch - fixed, moronic defenders and strikers occured. FM13 was considerably better on 13.3.3. At least in terms of realism in first seasons.

As for substituting 21 slider settings with 3-5... the TC still uses the full range of all the old sliders. It's not limited to 3-5 options. Rather, you have a baseline group of settings established by mentality that you can then modify in a number of ways using a wide variety of instructions. In any case, the effects of the sliders was a question of controlling tendencies and probabilities in relation to how your opponent is play, which a lot of people didn't understand, so unless you watch hundreds of hours of the same tactic on full match, there's basically no way you could identify the practical effect of a 1 or 2 position adjustment to something like width or passing. That being the case, nothing has really been lost or "downgraded" other than a lot of misconceptions about what various sliders actually did.

As for sliders... Even though pressing is generally unplayable (I mean real pressing, not players walking towards opponents), certain roles don't allow more or less closing down. CD is an option that needs more than two modalities, since pressing intensity is not something that can be described with more and less. Not to mention that strikers generally can't close down more and defenders can't close down less. Same goes for passing - shorter, default and direct are not quite enough for individual players. For example: Barca plays shorter passes than Dortmund in general, even though both teams tend to play "shorter passing". Even though other elements influence their playing style, one simply can't say that passing length of these teams is same in general.

Also, hold up ball for certain roles can't be turned off, making so-called "hybrid roles" is blocked, eg. wingers can't cut inside or move into channels. If all the options were enabled for every position (and role), system would give us far more control than now, and it may even be more realistic than the one with sliders. Now - it just simplifies things too much. It is more about picking an ideal player for the role, than adjusting role to maximize players' strength. Something that comes to my mind would be Eto'o in Mourinho's Inter. Impossible to copy.

One more thing - primary playmaker, target man and target man supply - previous system also gave us more control. We could target poachers with through balls, tall DLFs to head etc., now we are forced to use "real" target men and hope that other players will target them the way we want. It's not like that option bothered anyone.

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As for sliders... Even though pressing is generally unplayable (I mean real pressing, not players walking towards opponents), certain roles don't allow more or less closing down. CD is an option that needs more than two modalities, since pressing intensity is not something that can be described with more and less. Not to mention that strikers generally can't close down more and defenders can't close down less.

If you want a striker to close down more, use a Defensive Forward or use OIs? Defenders close down in relation to your mentality. Don't want them to close down as much? Choose a lower mentality. Still want the midfield to close down a lot? Tell them to "press more" or employ ball-winning midfielders. A "stopper" defender will obviously close down more and a "cover" defender, less.

Same goes for passing - shorter, default and direct are not quite enough for individual players. For example: Barca plays shorter passes than Dortmund in general, even though both teams tend to play "shorter passing". Even though other elements influence their playing style, one simply can't say that passing length of these teams is same in general.
Barca also plays with a lower mentality, which (correct me if I'm wrong) also shortens the passes.
Also, hold up ball for certain roles can't be turned off, making so-called "hybrid roles" is blocked, eg. wingers can't cut inside or move into channels. If all the options were enabled for every position (and role), system would give us far more control than now, and it may even be more realistic than the one with sliders. Now - it just simplifies things too much. It is more about picking an ideal player for the role, than adjusting role to maximize players' strength. Something that comes to my mind would be Eto'o in Mourinho's Inter. Impossible to copy.

One more thing - primary playmaker, target man and target man supply - previous system also gave us more control. We could target poachers with through balls, tall DLFs to head etc., now we are forced to use "real" target men and hope that other players will target them the way we want. It's not like that option bothered anyone.

Wingers are wingers. If they cut inside, they're not wingers anymore but Inside Forwards or Advanced Playmakers since that's what an they do. Target Men are also very simple. Your passing affects how they'll use him. Employing a Poacher? Give more of your forward players instructions to "Pass into Space".

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If you want a striker to close down more, use a Defensive Forward or use OIs? Defenders close down in relation to your mentality. Don't want them to close down as much? Choose a lower mentality. Still want the midfield to close down a lot? Tell them to "press more" or employ ball-winning midfielders. A "stopper" defender will obviously close down more and a "cover" defender, less.

CD Defend closes down too much. Strikers don't close down more than default. Not even with OI. Mandzukic-like pressing is impossible in the game. Generally, pressing is one of the worst areas of the ME.

Wingers are wingers. If they cut inside, they're not wingers anymore but Inside Forwards or Advanced Playmakers since that's what an they do.

Eto'o was a defensive winger very often in Inter's CL campaign. But still, he did cut inside. It doesn't hurt having an option to modify a role, does it? It didn't hurt last couple of years.

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It's not just Ancelotti, in my save he was sacked, with Mourinho, Ronaldo scored 23 in all competitions. When Mourinho was Real Madrid manager, Ronaldo scored 50+ every season. I have to disagree about slightly underperforming Ronaldo. The same goes for Messi. It's 14.3 that made them so average. Before it, they were quite "normal". This patch fixed few bugs, but created new ones. First touch - fixed, moronic defenders and strikers occured. FM13 was considerably better on 13.3.3. At least in terms of realism in first seasons.

Goal statistics aren't the only standard of realism. It would certainly be easier for SI if they were only interested in producing a statistics generator, but they're trying to produce a simulation of football which means that short term improvements in the actual action on the pitch may have some knock-on effects for the stats produced if certain players were over-reliant on certain ME quirks. As I recall, in FM13, the inferior defending required DMs and fullbacks to produce astronomical tackle rates for both AI and human-controlled sides, and earlier versions had serious problems with every half-decent dribbler just being able to slalom through defences like Messi at his best. That's much worse than AI managers not getting the best out of some big stars under 14.3.

As for sliders... Even though pressing is generally unplayable (I mean real pressing, not players walking towards opponents), certain roles don't allow more or less closing down. CD is an option that needs more than two modalities, since pressing intensity is not something that can be described with more and less. Not to mention that strikers generally can't close down more and defenders can't close down less. Same goes for passing - shorter, default and direct are not quite enough for individual players. For example: Barca plays shorter passes than Dortmund in general, even though both teams tend to play "shorter passing". Even though other elements influence their playing style, one simply can't say that passing length of these teams is same in general.

Also, hold up ball for certain roles can't be turned off, making so-called "hybrid roles" is blocked, eg. wingers can't cut inside or move into channels. If all the options were enabled for every position (and role), system would give us far more control than now, and it may even be more realistic than the one with sliders. Now - it just simplifies things too much. It is more about picking an ideal player for the role, than adjusting role to maximize players' strength. Something that comes to my mind would be Eto'o in Mourinho's Inter. Impossible to copy.

One more thing - primary playmaker, target man and target man supply - previous system also gave us more control. We could target poachers with through balls, tall DLFs to head etc., now we are forced to use "real" target men and hope that other players will target them the way we want. It's not like that option bothered anyone.

I absolutely agree that there could be more options, but the new system will actually enable this as the game grows out of the restrictions imposed by the old system. The sliders gave the illusion of this broad range of control when it was all a question of making minor tweaks to the same standardized set of behaviours.

As for sliders... Even though pressing is generally unplayable (I mean real pressing, not players walking towards opponents), certain roles don't allow more or less closing down.

I actually think unrealistic use of "Hassle" is the closest thing to an ME exploit you will find in 14.3.

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It doesn't hurt having an option to modify a role, does it? It didn't hurt last couple of years.

It does hurt if it goes against what the role is all about. That's why we can't select certain options. One or two more roles is what we need then? Sounds like your name is down for a Defensive Inside Forward? :D

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Goal statistics aren't the only standard of realism. It would certainly be easier for SI if they were only interested in producing a statistics generator, but they're trying to produce a simulation of football which means that short term improvements in the actual action on the pitch may have some knock-on effects for the stats produced if certain players were over-reliant on certain ME quirks. As I recall, in FM13, the inferior defending required DMs and fullbacks to produce astronomical tackle rates for both AI and human-controlled sides, and earlier versions had serious problems with every half-decent dribbler just being able to slalom through defences like Messi at his best. That's much worse than AI managers not getting the best out of some big stars under 14.3.

This. They had problems in other areas. Fixing one problem constantly generates new problems. That's basically what bothers me most about FM. Along with pressing :D

I agree that goal statistics aren't only standard of realism, but Ronaldo and Messi constantly missing 1 on 1, so they don't score 50+, you have to agree that it's not quite realistic situation either. And yes, I have seen them behaving like morons in front of goal in FM.

It does hurt if it goes against what the role is all about. That's why we can't select certain options. One or two more roles is what we need then? Sounds like your name is down for a Defensive Inside Forward? :D

Maybe :D But, then again Mourinho practically "invented" Eto'os role. That is not possible in FM14, and it was possible in FM13. Roles were a good start in previous versions, since they gave general settings, but could still be significantly modified, what they lack this year.

I actually think unrealistic use of "Hassle" is the closest thing to an ME exploit you will find in 14.3.

Define this. Hassle doesn't equal Guardiola-like pressing. Real pressing is what ME really lacks.

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Define this. Hassle doesn't equal Guardiola-like pressing. Real pressing is what ME really lacks.

As I said above, it's definitely an area that can be improved, but the possibility of those improvements was contingent on the steps taken in FM13 and FM14. You can't have aggressive, physical defending without some form of collision detection in place.And when teams do start pressing like Bayern, many people will be furious to discover that they suddenly can't keep three AMs drifting around ahead of the midfield battle and we'll all argue over how FM14 was a perfectly good game. :D

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And when teams do start pressing like Bayern, many people will be furious to discover that they suddenly can't keep three AMs drifting around ahead of the midfield battle and we'll all argue over how FM14 was a perfectly good game. :D

That was exactly my point before, or more precisely - the other side of it. Is FM14 not a good game?

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That was exactly my point before, or more precisely - the other side of it. Is FM14 not a good game?

It's a good game, but games improve and standards are raised. Daggerfall was incredible in 1996. Skyrim is vastly superior.

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It's a good game, but games improve and standards are raised. Daggerfall was incredible in 1996. Skyrim is vastly superior.

Haven't played either, sorry.

And I don't agree that collision avoidance alone was enough to raise the standards and make FM13/14 superior to FM12. I don't think FM13 was superior at all. Far too unbalanced on the pitch and statistically. FM14 is superior, but that's still a largely subjective opinion on my part.

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As I said above, it's definitely an area that can be improved, but the possibility of those improvements was contingent on the steps taken in FM13 and FM14. You can't have aggressive, physical defending without some form of collision detection in place.And when teams do start pressing like Bayern, many people will be furious to discover that they suddenly can't keep three AMs drifting around ahead of the midfield battle and we'll all argue over how FM14 was a perfectly good game. :D

Maybe, but it would give totally new dimension to the game. One thing is not understanding tactics, but being limited to play in a certain way by the ME is totally another. This ME has too many limitations, especially in copying managers like Guardiola. Even Mourinho's "broken" pressing, where only front 3(4) press, while back players don't is not replicable in a good way. Definitely, apart from random occurring bugs (first touch, moronic defenders and strikers), pressing is the crucial flaw of the ME. It is one of the crucial elements of modern football, so it has to be implemented way better. And definitely, Hassle and Stand off are not enough for all kinds of pressing. It is way too complicated for 2 team instructions editable only for certain roles in only one way (+ or -).

Also, why was Zonal/Man removed?

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14.3 is head and shoulders above previous incarnations of FM14. There are still very annoying problems, but they don't ruin the fun for me as much as the terrible first-touches did... It's especially annoying when keepers gather the ball up... then step across the byline to concede a corner. Sportsmanship. Good work anyway, SI.

Anyway, right now my most annoying problem is that my game how now crashed several times even though it never did in previous patches. I'm running a 2011 Macbook Pro. Any thoughts?

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Maybe, but it would give totally new dimension to the game. One thing is not understanding tactics, but being limited to play in a certain way by the ME is totally another. This ME has too many limitations, especially in copying managers like Guardiola. Even Mourinho's "broken" pressing, where only front 3(4) press, while back players don't is not replicable in a good way. Definitely, apart from random occurring bugs (first touch, moronic defenders and strikers), pressing is the crucial flaw of the ME. It is one of the crucial elements of modern football, so it has to be implemented way better. And definitely, Hassle and Stand off are not enough for all kinds of pressing. It is way too complicated for 2 team instructions editable only for certain roles in only one way (+ or -).

Also, why was Zonal/Man removed?

I disagree about pressing options being limited to two team instructions. The representation is definitely something I'd like to see improved, but the options for all the standard pressing schemes are there via mentality combined with the "push up" and "drop deeper" instructions. The only thing that's a bit tricky is false/broken pressing which you can achieve, but getting there is a bit convoluted if you don't want to use the defensive forward/winger roles.

Man marking was removed because it wasn't actual man-to-man marking, more of a tight zonal set-up, and to my knowledge, didn't really reflect a marking system that anyone really uses.

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Man marking was thought to be extinct, but then Greece won EC using that system. It exists, even though it is not as common. Removing options is not the way to evolve tactic system. Coaches nowdays still know about man marking and are able to instruct their teams to play in such manner, it is their choice not to. I actually used man marking last year.

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Man marking was thought to be extinct, but then Greece won EC using that system. It exists, even though it is not as common. Removing options is not the way to evolve tactic system. Coaches nowdays still know about man marking and are able to instruct their teams to play in such manner, it is their choice not to. I actually used man marking last year.

Strict man-to-man marking is still in the game via individual instructions. The old FM "man marking" can be approximated with the default setting and a "tighter marking" TI, as that setting was more of a "tight zonal" system and not really a good representation of how teams like Greece '00 played.

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There are no teams like Greece '00. They were the only one. :D But definitely, having extra options doesn't hurt. It doesn't force anyone to use them, and gives another possibility to ones who want to.

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Thing is, an actual manager has the entire lexicon of the English (or otherwise) language to work with to tell his players what he wants them to do. He can explain down to the most minute detail exactly where he wants them to be. The choices we have now are very much binary in their nature. In this respect I think the sliders were actually the more realistic option as it replaces the linguistic flexibility with a numerical flexibility not present in the current system.

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Thing is, an actual manager has the entire lexicon of the English (or otherwise) language to work with to tell his players what he wants them to do. He can explain down to the most minute detail exactly where he wants them to be. The choices we have now are very much binary in their nature. In this respect I think the sliders were actually the more realistic option as it replaces the linguistic flexibility with a numerical flexibility not present in the current system.

Interestingly enough, the "realistic" word features regardless of which side of the interface fence you sit on.

My stance has always been clear; I didn't like the sliders at all and so welcomed the new interface.

I always felt that the sliders gave an arbitrary sense of control, and consequently don't believe that the new interface results in fewer tangible options.

When you set a slider to "5", it was never perceptibly different from setting it to "4" or "6".

As such, 20 levels of control never really existed in my opinion, at least not in a practical or perceptible manner.

I feel that the current interface therefore is a better representation of the way in which instructions are conveyed - more realistic if you like.

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Guest El Payaso
There are still very annoying problems, but they don't ruin the fun for me as much as the terrible first-touches did...
For me the whole bad first touch thing was really refreshing. What's the point of having first touch attribute in the game and then no-one ever makes a bad first touch? Currently there are too many attributes that just change the Current Ability and make the player more or less dominant in the ME and not actually showing any of those 'skills' in the gameplay. I know it is a lot to ask to be done precisely but having attacking players also doing errors like bad dribbling attempts, bad first touches and runs to wrong place to receive pass, would really balance the ME. Now it is just too 'attacking' for my liking at and for me it is kinda obvious that too slick attacking play and quite poor defending is balanced with things like bad finishing...

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Interestingly enough, the "realistic" word features regardless of which side of the interface fence you sit on.

My stance has always been clear; I didn't like the sliders at all and so welcomed the new interface.

I always felt that the sliders gave an arbitrary sense of control, and consequently don't believe that the new interface results in fewer tangible options.

When you set a slider to "5", it was never perceptibly different from setting it to "4" or "6".

As such, 20 levels of control never really existed in my opinion, at least not in a practical or perceptible manner.

I feel that the current interface therefore is a better representation of the way in which instructions are conveyed - more realistic if you like.

Never perceptibly different but it was different. Taking the narrowest range also doesn't quite tell the tale, what about the difference between 3 and 7, between 11 and 15? It's a question of granularity really. How much control should a manager have over these things? Possibly there's a middle ground between the fine granularity of the sliders and the more binary nature of the instructions.

One thing though, documentation of these features and how they work in concert and opposition is desperately needed. I recognise that various forum members have gone above and beyond in their efforts but some kind of in-game information, whether it is in text form or some kind of graphic demonstrating the effect of the instruction should be a priority. Maybe they could allow you to simulate a 2d match using the tactics you've selected.

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Guest El Payaso
Interestingly enough, the "realistic" word features regardless of which side of the interface fence you sit on.

My stance has always been clear; I didn't like the sliders at all and so welcomed the new interface.

I feel that the current interface therefore is a better representation of the way in which instructions are conveyed - more realistic if you like.

Controlling a team in real life isn't a limited thing like the current system is. If I was a manager in real life I would be able to tell my players to tie their shoes on the pitch if I would like to. That's not the thing what I would be demanding from developers but for me and I think that for many else the current system is too simplified and boring. IRL it often takes more than a season to make style of play finished, in game it takes 2-3 minutes and there are no ways or real need to tweak it anymore is that 'realistic' then? Reading the tactics forum has been like I feared before the new system was released: people are using more and more exactly same style of plays and that kinda kills the tactical identity in the game. For example I like to use one of the most used formations like 4-5-1 and 4-4-1-1 but I still like to have a strong tactical identity for my team and have a system that no-one else uses.

Things like tutoring and teaching preferred moves aren't that 'realistic' either but still good features for a game.

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Controlling a team in real life isn't a limited thing like the current system is. If I was a manager in real life I would be able to tell my players to tie their shoes on the pitch if I would like to. That's not the thing what I would be demanding from developers but for me and I think that for many else the current system is too simplified and boring. IRL it often takes more than a season to make style of play finished, in game it takes 2-3 minutes and there are no ways or real need to tweak it anymore is that 'realistic' then? Reading the tactics forum has been like I feared before the new system was released: people are using more and more exactly same style of plays and that kinda kills the tactical identity in the game. For example I like to use one of the most used formations like 4-5-1 and 4-4-1-1 but I still like to have a strong tactical identity for my team and have a system that no-one else uses.

That has nothing to do with the sliders vs current system debate. You want more instructions, not more notches on the sliders. That's different and it's something I'm sure we'll get in the future.

The strong tactical identity is something you can introduce through Team Instructions and Player Instructions. Even though the formation is the same, you can make it behave very differently.

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Guest El Payaso
That has nothing to do with the sliders vs current system debate. You want more instructions, not more notches on the sliders. That's different and it's something I'm sure we'll get in the future.
I've never said that I was a big fan of sliders but wouldn't really say that the current system is better or more realistic. And not even declaring that the game should be realistic all the way. I just think that those people who liked to tweak things precisely right are quite forgotten with this current system.
The strong tactical identity is something you can introduce through Team Instructions and Player Instructions. Even though the formation is the same, you can make it behave very differently.
I wouldn't say that you can create a strong identity with the system. When I watch other people's career updates in the forum their players are performing almost exactly same ways as my players in the same positions are and that already tells me a lot. I think that for example most of us are relying on individual skill on their attacking play: for example wingers are basically the main creators in every tactic that uses them and so on. It would be refreshing to see the ball winning midfielder actually being the best performer or that full-back who only concentrates on defending...

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I've never said that I was a big fan of sliders but wouldn't really say that the current system is better or more realistic. And not even declaring that the game should be realistic all the way. I just think that those people who liked to tweak things precisely right are quite forgotten with this current system.

Now you're saying something else. If we're going to talk about realism, the current system wins. That has to be obvious since it uses football language instead of slider notches. Again, I'm not talking about that. What it seems to me you're asking for is more instructions not more slider notches or D-Line height adjustments. I agree with that and as I said, I'm sure we'll get those.

I wouldn't say that you can create a strong identity with the system. When I watch other people's career updates in the forum their players are performing almost exactly same ways as my players in the same positions are and that already tells me a lot. I think that for example most of us are relying on individual skill on their attacking play: for example wingers are basically the main creators in every tactic that uses them and so on. It would be refreshing to see the ball winning midfielder actually being the best performer or that full-back who only concentrates on defending...

Can't comment on that, but I've personally had two 4-5-1 systems play very different by using different roles and team/player instructions so it is possible.

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There are no teams like Greece '00. They were the only one. :D But definitely, having extra options doesn't hurt. It doesn't force anyone to use them, and gives another possibility to ones who want to.

I think tactical options will be expanded and, from this point on, they'll be expanded more consistently and in ways that weren't previously possible. Prior to FM14, there had been no completely new tactical options added for years, and people were frustrated that most new features seemed to be additions to the media module. Now, we have things like the Halfback and the False Nine, and moving away from the slider system made that much easier. Sliders weren't removed to keep players from editing roles; they were removed so SI can fine tune roles in a way that the previous system wouldn't allow. Whereas the slider system would let you make broad adjustments to basic things like through passes and forward runs, specific behaviours can now be pinpointed and adjusted to a level of detail that wasn't possible with sliders. So for example, a box to box midfielder can now be adjusted to time his runs in a way that actually makes him box to box on all mentality settings, a target man can be adjusted to use his head and physicality much more than a poacher, a halfback can consistently alternate position in different phases of play, etc. In time, this will be expanded to team instructions, so players will make specific decisions that better suit the team's formation or preferred playing style.

Again, the problem with sliders is that they gave you the option of a lot of microscopic adjustments to an overly standardized and narrowly defined way of playing. It was like an ice cream shop that offered 50 versions of strawberry and nothing else. Obviously, there are a lot of options yet to be added to give people the freedom to make their teams play exactly how they want, but under the new system, that's actually a possibility.

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Guest El Payaso
What it seems to me you're asking for is more instructions not more slider notches or D-Line height adjustments. I agree with that and as I said, I'm sure we'll get those.
Yes, more instructions and different kind of instructions like being able to properly influence how your teams move and for example close down. Also more instructions for players on how to act in different kind of situations...
Can't comment on that, but I've personally had two 4-5-1 systems play very different by using different roles and team/player instructions so it is possible.
For me it seems kinda hard-coded how players on different positions perform no matter what kind of style of play you use. For example my attacking midfielder with good amount of current ability might play badly long times in season but at some point he finds really good form so that he achieves certain amount of assists and goals and certain level of average ratings. In next season same player might start the season really well and being unstoppable but then he just stops performing and after two season when you look at the career stats the two seasons seem almost like a copy of one another.

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For me it seems kinda hard-coded how players on different positions perform no matter what kind of style of play you use. For example my attacking midfielder with good amount of current ability might play badly long times in season but at some point he finds really good form so that he achieves certain amount of assists and goals and certain level of average ratings. In next season same player might start the season really well and being unstoppable but then he just stops performing and after two season when you look at the career stats the two seasons seem almost like a copy of one another.

I'm not sure how this relates to what you quoted me as saying, but hope you're not implying that performances suffer and pick up again because of some artificial limitation on stats...

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I think tactical options will be expanded and, from this point on, they'll be expanded more consistently and in ways that weren't previously possible. Prior to FM14, there had been no completely new tactical options added for years, and people were frustrated that most new features seemed to be additions to the media module. Now, we have things like the Halfback and the False Nine, and moving away from the slider system made that much easier. Sliders weren't removed to keep players from editing roles; they were removed so SI can fine tune roles in a way that the previous system wouldn't allow. Whereas the slider system would let you make broad adjustments to basic things like through passes and forward runs, specific behaviours can now be pinpointed and adjusted to a level of detail that wasn't possible with sliders. So for example, a box to box midfielder can now be adjusted to time his runs in a way that actually makes him box to box on all mentality settings, a target man can be adjusted to use his head and physicality much more than a poacher, a halfback can consistently alternate position in different phases of play, etc. In time, this will be expanded to team instructions, so players will make specific decisions that better suit the team's formation or preferred playing style.

Again, the problem with sliders is that they gave you the option of a lot of microscopic adjustments to an overly standardized and narrowly defined way of playing. It was like an ice cream shop that offered 50 versions of strawberry and nothing else. Obviously, there are a lot of options yet to be added to give people the freedom to make their teams play exactly how they want, but under the new system, that's actually a possibility.

Agree with a lot of your points - the implementation of tactics though, so far as I can see it (and maybe pressing aside, which could do with some improvement) are not the real problem. It's more the representation of them and what we're actually seeing when it comes to match day. Could have the most comprehensive, in depth, nuance based tactical options available but if we're not seeing them when it really matters, ie. match day, then really have to ask yourself 'what is the point'? I cannot, and I say this honestly, recall a single match I've watched where I've noticed a difference in tactical style... formation aside. Everyone seems to pass the same, be it Skrill Premier or La Liga, teams break the same, skill definitions are limited (by that I mean you can't tell a world class international from a hungover Sunday league pub player) and goalkeepers aside you really can't tell the difference between a 'good' or 'bad' player (sort of the same point, but I felt it worthy of double mention... on a bit of a rant now, apologies).

It has to be such a fine balance, I certainly don't envy SI's job!

Completely with you on the 'sliders' argument by the way...

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Guest El Payaso
Obviously, there are a lot of options yet to be added to give people the freedom to make their teams play exactly how they want, but under the new system, that's actually a possibility.
I'm not sure that I'm understanding this right but if you're saying that it is possible to create exact style of plays that we want then I think that you are quite wrong. Of course it is also down to it what you want to achieve with your style of play but I'm certainly not able to create a style of play what I would like to. In my games I see lots of small grievances that I would like to correct with simple instructions but I'm not able to give those instructions.

The current system for me is limited and pretty boring but I have full confidence that in the future it will be much better and much more done for players like me who really think that tactics are the most interesting thing in the game and worth a little bit of time to be spent on them. Of course the developers must respect the new players also but same goes with all of us and the current system isn't really working for those who enjoy tweaking.

I'm not sure how this relates to what you quoted me as saying, but hope you're not implying that performances suffer and pick up again because of some artificial limitation on stats...
I'm not saying that it is completely hard-coded how certain players perform but it doesn't wary too much. For example in last year's version I had Manu Busto playing as attacking midfielder in Real Oviedo. He played a brilliant first season and got something like 20 goals and 22 assists. Then in seconds season he was much more 'quiet' for most of the season and I was thinking that he isn't going to have same kind of season like he did last year, such a shame. Suddenly when there was only about 15 games to go in the season he started dominating without any tactical changes: he scored from direct free-kicks for the first time in my era and got 18 goals and around 20 assists in the seconds season and most of the goals were when he was unstoppable and when he reached the certain level in his stats he just returned to his normal self for the rest of the season.

And some feedback/question: is anyone else noticed that most of the generated players are really physical freaks? How common IRL are these attacking players who make for example Cristiano Ronaldo look like a ballerina when you compare their attributes?

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Hi, just signed up today, saw this thread and thought I would add a grievance of my own.

Here goes

When we start a new game those players that were injured in pre season(real life) are already injured in the game.

Yet, we then have to go through a whole pre season ourselves, just to get where we were when most of our already injured players were injured in the first place, inevitably incurring even more injuries on the way.

This just doesn't seem right under the circumstances, a point that is made even more frustrating by the increase in injuries after the last patch.

Just thought i'd throw that in, see what people thought?

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Hi, just signed up today, saw this thread and thought I would add a grievance of my own.

Here goes

When we start a new game those players that were injured in pre season(real life) are already injured in the game.

Yet, we then have to go through a whole pre season ourselves, just to get where we were when most of our already injured players were injured in the first place, inevitably incurring even more injuries on the way.

This just doesn't seem right under the circumstances, a point that is made even more frustrating by the increase in injuries after the last patch.

Just thought i'd throw that in, see what people thought?

How many players do you have out injured at a time? It's fairly well known on here that FM has fewer injuries than real life, so if you're having injury problems, it could be an unlucky spell. If it's consistently a problem, it's something to do with your training and possibly physios.

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How many players do you have out injured at a time? It's fairly well known on here that FM has fewer injuries than real life, so if you're having injury problems, it could be an unlucky spell. If it's consistently a problem, it's something to do with your training and possibly physios.

If you're having injury problems I feel bad for you, son

I've got 99 problems but injuries ain't one

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How many players do you have out injured at a time? It's fairly well known on here that FM has fewer injuries than real life, so if you're having injury problems, it could be an unlucky spell. If it's consistently a problem, it's something to do with your training and possibly physios.

Sometimes its just an extra 1 or 2 on top of those already out injured.

Like I said, it just feels a little O.T.T. when you have already incurred the injuries that happened pre season before you even play pre season.

Maybe it could be done differently, similar to the way the January transfer window opens and in any new game you automatically have the January signings in July. Take out the pre season injuries in much the same manner.

I had a recent Crystal Palace save that ended in disaster, by the time the season started I had no fullbacks and no wingers, got off to a bad start with an already poor side and never recovered.

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