Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Please increase the maximum PA. Even if its just as a debug sort of tool. Even if no player would ever become a 220 PA, give us that option in the editor atleast. I feel there are 2 players that 200 CA simply doesn't make them justice. 2 ...or perhaps one. Make it so a -11 becomes 200-220 maybe? If not, just give us the option to be able to do it if we wanted, even if no regen/player will ever come at a PA higher than 200 by default. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyfooty Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Should we start betting on whether its Messi or Ronaldo that you have a poster of hanged on the wall? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rinso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 If no player would ever reach it then what's the point of having it? 200 is a perfectly adequate limit, and there's no reason to change that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlobben Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 If anything, the amount of players with a PA in the 190-200 range should be lowered and/or it should be harder for players to reach their PA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 It is not wether I have a poster or not hanged on the wall with any of them. I simply believe that, Cristiano especially, isn't accurately represented in game. I didn't ask for more players with 190-200, I simply asked for a higher PA limit, even if it were for fun purposes alone (no player ever coming with a PA higher than 200). Try holidaying for a year and see what are the numbers for Messi and Cristiano. They will come way lower than irl. WAY LOWER. You could say they have bad managers but please someone post a screenshot with any of them having 60+ goals in a year and I will believe otherwise. I won't even start about whether they're attributes are correct or not in the system we currently have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 So if the limit is 220, then all you are doing is stretching out the previous point system...spreading 200pts over 220pt range... So someone who was a 200 is now 220, someone who was 199 is now 218.9 (1.1 less than 200), someone who was 180 becomes 198, and the people at 50 become 55. And so forth. extending one end of the scale just means everyone needs realigning to the new scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 So if the limit is 220, then all you are doing is stretching out the previous point system...spreading 200pts over 220pt range...So someone who was a 200 is now 220, someone who was 199 is now 218.9 (1.1 less than 200), someone who was 180 becomes 198, and the people at 50 become 55. And so forth. extending one end of the scale just means everyone needs realigning to the new scale. Not exactly what I meant. By increased PA I actually meant MORE attribute points than currently available. So a 220 CA player would be better by quite a margin than a 200 CA player. Thus, no realigning . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rinso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 It is not wether I have a poster or not hanged on the wall with any of them. I simply believe that, Cristiano especially, isn't accurately represented in game. I didn't ask for more players with 190-200, I simply asked for a higher PA limit, even if it were for fun purposes alone (no player ever coming with a PA higher than 200). Try holidaying for a year and see what are the numbers for Messi and Cristiano. They will come way lower than irl. WAY LOWER. You could say they have bad managers but please someone post a screenshot with any of them having 60+ goals in a year and I will believe otherwise. I won't even start about whether they're attributes are correct or not in the system we currently have. How many times IRL has a player scored more than 60 goals in a year??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Not exactly what I meant. By increased PA I actually meant MORE attribute points than currently available. So a 220 CA player would be better by quite a margin than a 200 CA player. Thus, no realigning . But what you are asking for by "extending" it to 220 is exactly that. What you want is a bigger difference between the elite players (Messi/Ronaldo) at 200, and the next tier eg. Ribery. So what you really should be asking for is a reevaluation of the CA/PA values in the Data Problems section, if currently M/R are at 200 & Ribery at 198, you feel they should be 200 and he should be 180. Or whatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 How many times IRL has a player scored more than 60 goals in a year??? I can tell you there are 13 European Association Players with >60 goals in a Calendar year ever. (Sorry can't find exact stats for other confeds) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 @ Rinso - Think Messi and CR7 have been doing that for a while now. @ Lower League Rule - Actually no. Say a 200 CA player has 17 in all attributes. A 220 player would have 19 in all attributes. That's just exemplifying. NO scaling. Scaling this to a new max of 220 would beat the point entirely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 @ Rinso - Think Messi and CR7 have been doing that for a while now. Messi has done it twice (3 over 50) Ronaldo has done it ONCE (3 over 50) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rinso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I can tell you there are 13 European Association Players with >60 goals in a Calendar year ever. (Sorry can't find exact stats for other confeds) Wow really? In that case, apologies, I had no idea it had happened... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Messi has done it twice (3 over 50)Ronaldo has done it ONCE (3 over 50) Fair enough. The underlying problem I see is actually in the match engine. While LM and CR are a mile better than any of they're rivals, they're still not playing in the ME as they are playing IRL. That's why I'd like to see higher PA meaning higher sustainable attributes. Making the point of more CA = game breaking is invalid in my opinion. IRL football isn't balanced. Tell that to any team that gets ripped to shreds by any of these two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Wow really? In that case, apologies, I had no idea it had happened... But that is 13 times in over 100 years. (It appears my info might actually be season numbers not calendar, but assume similar), also includes International goals & European Goals. (So all goals scored) Even 50 goals has only happened 51 times in >100yrs, it is rare to say the least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Fair enough. The underlying problem I see is actually in the match engine. While LM and CR are a mile better than any of they're rivals, they're still not playing in the ME as they are playing IRL. That's why I'd like to see higher PA meaning higher sustainable attributes.Making the point of more CA = game breaking is invalid in my opinion. IRL football isn't balanced. Tell that to any team that gets ripped to shreds by any of these two. Again there doesn't need to be an increase to the maximum CA, just a realignment of the current numbers. So putting more gap between the top guys and the next tier, which would work within the 200 model. (I don't think it is needed at all, but that is beside the point ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rinso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 But that is 13 times in over 100 years. (It appears my info might actually be season numbers not calendar, but assume similar), also includes International goals & European Goals. (So all goals scored)Even 50 goals has only happened 51 times in >100yrs, it is rare to say the least. I have no idea why, but I read that to mean that they had done it in the current year! lol I blame the beer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I have no idea why, but I read that to mean that they had done it in the current year! lolI blame the beer... Damn Beer, always causing trouble Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rinso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Damn Beer, always causing trouble Yep, it's just sitting in my fridge shouting "Drink me!" and that's what frazzled my brain... Had a few now, and things seem so much clearer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Again there doesn't need to be an increase to the maximum CA, just a realignment of the current numbers. So putting more gap between the top guys and the next tier, which would work within the 200 model. (I don't think it is needed at all, but that is beside the point ) I fear you are misunderstanding me . First of all, I started this with the suggestion of increasing maximum PA, even if it would be a feature to be used only through the editor and no player would ever come with a higher than 200 PA BY DEFAULT. If that happened, I could enter the editor and give a player a PA of 220 say. What would that mean? That would mean that say , if the player had a CA of 200 and a NEW PA of 220, he would still continue to grow in attributes. NO REALIGNMENT needed. That would mean that you would be able to see players better/much better than you can possibly see now. NOT by realigning and making other players weaker compared to them, but by making them even higher in attributes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rowell Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Fair enough. The underlying problem I see is actually in the match engine. While LM and CR are a mile better than any of they're rivals, they're still not playing in the ME as they are playing IRL. That's why I'd like to see higher PA meaning higher sustainable attributes.Making the point of more CA = game breaking is invalid in my opinion. IRL football isn't balanced. Tell that to any team that gets ripped to shreds by any of these two. 200 is just a scale, a number. If you or me or others feel that in the game Messi & Ronaldo aren't able to play to the level that they do IRL then there is a problem beneath that. This is just my personal opinion, but I think a significant amount of players in the database might be over-rated on some attributes (some of which are over-powered) and abilities, hence closing the gap to the likes of Messi / Ronaldo. I think it is a data problem to some extent. In FM13, a bit of pace and technique (often not fitting the true ability of the footballer IMO) could get that player a long way. FM14, 14.2.1, I think it is being dealt with by the clever people who write the ME but i don't envy them their task trying to balance things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swisso Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Fair enough. The underlying problem I see is actually in the match engine. While LM and CR are a mile better than any of they're rivals, they're still not playing in the ME as they are playing IRL. That's why I'd like to see higher PA meaning higher sustainable attributes.Making the point of more CA = game breaking is invalid in my opinion. IRL football isn't balanced. Tell that to any team that gets ripped to shreds by any of these two. Firstly, it'd be easier to address the weighting of certain attributes for Forwards, to enable them to reach higher attributes, rather then redefine the scale. What you're suggesting is a hammer approach when a scalpel is needed. Secondly, you acknowledge the ME doesn't replicate their form, so why not wait for an ME that can? It's under constant development, always moving forward and progressing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 200 is just a scale, a number.If you or me or others feel that in the game Messi & Ronaldo aren't able to play to the level that they do IRL then there is a problem beneath that. This is just my personal opinion, but I think a significant amount of players in the database might be over-rated on some attributes (some of which are over-powered) and abilities, hence closing the gap to the likes of Messi / Ronaldo. I think it is a data problem to some extent. In FM13, a bit of pace and technique (often not fitting the true ability of the footballer IMO) could get that player a long way. FM14, 14.2.1, I think it is being dealt with by the clever people who write the ME but i don't envy them their task trying to balance things. I believe it is a ME problem also. I remember in FM12, atleast with Messi it was quite possible to reach his normal goal scoring numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 200 is just a scale, a number. THIS! Edit: Actually I'm just done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Firstly, it'd be easier to address the weighting of certain attributes for Forwards, to enable them to reach higher attributes, rather then redefine the scale. What you're suggesting is a hammer approach when a scalpel is needed.Secondly, you acknowledge the ME doesn't replicate their form, so why not wait for an ME that can? It's under constant development, always moving forward and progressing. You might have a point with attribute weighting. ME always moving forward and progressing? This year ME in 14.0.0 was disastrous. It is better now but its not OK by any means. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rowell Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I believe it is a ME problem also. I remember in FM12, atleast with Messi it was quite possible to reach his normal goal scoring numbers. I didn't say it was an ME problem - I said I thought it might be a data problem, read what I wrote again . I think PaulC and his team might have a task to compensate the ME around a data problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 THIS! Edit: Actually I'm just done. Your explanation was quite good, no need to delete it. I see what you mean now and that might also be a way to do it. @ Lord Rowell - That reply was to someone else before seeing your post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff24 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Seen this post and thought... www.youtube.com/embed/4xgx4k83zzc (sorry, not sure how to post the actual video rather than just the link) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneronaldo Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 The problem isn't with CR7 or Messi's attributes/CA/PA. Its to do with the fact that AI managers simply aren't as good as human players at getting the best out of their team's star players, while we would naturally build the team around the a player of CR7/Messi's calibre the AI just fits them into the "Preferred Tactic" set to him.This is why players (us, human managers) can easily get CR7/Messi scoring 60+ goals a season but the AI generally struggles to get even close to 40. There is nothing wrong the those 2 players, just the AI isn't that good at getting the best out of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted January 15, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 15, 2014 Seen this post and thought...www.youtube.com/embed/4xgx4k83zzc (sorry, not sure how to post the actual video rather than just the link) Ha, exactly what I was going to post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I believe it is a ME problem also. I remember in FM12, atleast with Messi it was quite possible to reach his normal goal scoring numbers. Well when you've got no collision detection, and someone you can dribble through the ghosts... It is possible to have Messi scoring in line with real life, and perhaps even exceeding. Go over to the Tactics Forum and there's a thread from Ackter where he set up Barcelona simply to feed Messi. And he ate well. Of course there's still the issue of the AI not being able to use them quite correctly, but it varies depending on saves. I've seen both clean up in some saves, and in others they're rubbish. But then perhaps in some other parallel universe neither made it into football. Ronaldo weighs forty stone and Messi's a beef farmer back in Argentina. As for the OP, no, they shouldn't be extending CA or PA. What they should be doing is realigning things. Only Messi and Ronaldo should be touching 200, and even then I wouldn't put them there. I would be wildly cutting CA for most players so you'd have your tier 1 players on over 190, tier 2 over 180 then the rest falling below that. At the moment, as the game goes on it is just too easy for a massively CA'd player to come through. You have ridiculously statted youths who end up even better. Of course, you could argue that in real life, this will happen too. As the game evolves, in forty years we could end up with players who make Messi and Ronaldo look average. Exaggerating of course, but if you put a 60s/70s XI against a current XI, the current would run out easy winners IMO due to the physical aspect. In forty years, the current XI would probably get pumped too. I'd still rather keep it more level in FM though. Also, might just be me, but anyone else find the use of "CR7" cringe-worthy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flohrinho Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I believe it is a ME problem also. I remember in FM12, atleast with Messi it was quite possible to reach his normal goal scoring numbers. With Cristiano as well if you played him as a striker. It is true though that since FM13 the same numbers, that Messi and Cristiano reached over the last couple of seasons didn't seem to be possible anymore, at least I didn't find a way to get to those numbers anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tieio Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Seen this post and thought...www.youtube.com/embed/4xgx4k83zzc (sorry, not sure how to post the actual video rather than just the link) LOLOLOLOL Yes, perfect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Haha the video summed it up perfectly. No need to increase the scale at all, if you think there is an issue with Ronaldo and Messi not being good enough, then the other players rated too highly is the issue, not the 200 PA limit. Adding an extra 20 points makes no difference at all, as all other players would have to be re-rated to fit the new scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar2000 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 This is the first time in my long CM / FM career that two players IRL are hitting the goal scoring ratio that Ronaldo and Messi are. Very difficult for the game to replicate that, especially seen as they are technically not even strikers! I remember having newgen strikers over the years who did reach these sort of levels of a goal to game ratio and thinking so unrealistic, will never happen. Ronaldo and Messi's goal scoring feats IRL are just sensational, we have never seen the likes of it at the top level before, not in recent history anyway. I know when you look at their player history in FM its disappointing to see them only hitting 15 - 20 goals a season but I can't see increased PA improving this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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