Ajax - When Real Life Meets Football Manager - FM14

[Cleon]

I don't actually use match prep at all. But yeah you should leave it set on tactics until fluid. After than it's down to you and what you want tbh.

[LEEMOD]

I don't actually use match prep at all. But yeah you should leave it set on tactics until fluid. After than it's down to you and what you want tbh.

Ah right ok then - thank you

[fanir]

Cleon,

Question, what's the difference between Team Cohesian and Teamwork? I can't seem to figure it out.

[Cleon]

It's basically the same thing but general training team cohesion is a lot faster than match training due to it being the main focus. You'd team cohesion during preseason if you've brought new players into the squad so they all gel quicker. During the season you'd use match training and set that to teamwork instead so you aren't wasting training.

[TeddyHobble]

Hi Cleon,

I've only just discovered this thread, and only just onto page 2 so apologies if this has been discussed.

I've recently taken over at Lyon in 2019, and one thing i have to do is develop youngsters.

I have 3 17/18 years who i think look decent, but all my coaches seem to say development has slowed, and they need something new - or words to that effect, i can't really remember exactly what it says. What would you do in this instance, keep going with them or listen to the coaches?

[Cleon]

It normally means training alone is no good and they need first team experience. I don't have this issue as I always use youth no matter how good/bad their attributes are.

[Trendar]

when ever I change match preparation to 10 or 20 players start to complain, you dont mind that at all?

[Cleon]

My players don't complain really and I don't use match prep if you've read the thread. I highly doubt that match training alone makes your players complain though. Plus it depends what they are moaning about exactly. Moaning isn't always a bad thing and can be reflective of what type of personality the players have.

[Trendar]

I have usually atleas 1-5 players complaining that there is not enough match preparation training. I have to check more closely about personalities etc as I reduce match training

[Cleon]

Complaining about match prep makes no difference, it will just mean you have a professional group of players. All it does is give a very slight boost for the next match, having no match training means you spend more time developing players instead. It's fine just ignore them.

[ashlfcowen]

Hi Cleon,

Long break away from FM. Back with my beloved Liverpool- a team with plenty of potential in the ranks.

My question to you is; When do you say enough is enough? ... I know you say you don't take much notice to the stars, but when a players CA has reached his PA is he going to drastically improve in areas of his game, or would you then just put him on an individual role and look for improvements across the board?

For example; Coutinho.

I play him as an IF(A) rotating with Depay, but his finishing is nowhere near where I want it to be. Am I safe to assume I'd be wasting my team focusing on that one attribute in training and look to accept he'll have to play a different role to Depay with "Shoots Less" TI?

I know it will vary from player to player, I would just like to know when to stop putting so much attention on individual attributes.

Thanks in advance.

[Cleon]

Why would your team be focusing on that one attribute? I don't follow?

If someone has reached their PA then they can't improve anymore, any changes that do happen will see a drop in his current attributes because that's the only way he can get more CA. It's not that he'd get more, it's the fact that the CA would have to come from existsing attributes due to him being at full potential. So once someone is capped then any future improvements are at the cost of other attributes decreasing.

Why does he have to play a different role to Depay? Why can't he still play the same role? He'll just play it differently. Just because one or more attributes might be low doesn't mean the player can't play the role, it just means he'll play it differently.

[ashlfcowen]

My bad. I meant "assume I'd be wasting my time" not team sorry.

Ah right that clears that one up. My notebook has drastically reduced now, haha. So having someone peak so early can actually have it's downfalls?...

[Cleon]

My bad. I meant "assume I'd be wasting my time" not team sorry.

Ah right that clears that one up. My notebook has drastically reduced now, haha. So having someone peak so early can actually have it's downfalls?...

Not really as it's just as easy to maintain his current attributes, so I'd not call it a downfall. Majority of players will have lower attributes than desired for some things if they are not regens and been shaped from a very young age by the manager and even then they still might lack in one attribute or it might not be as high as you'd like. But remember one attribute in isolation is pointless, it's what he is like overall that matters. One low or average attribute doesn't mean he can't do all the things you still want, it won't make any huge difference to the final outcome.

[ashlfcowen]

Not really as it's just as easy to maintain his current attributes, so I'd not call it a downfall. Majority of players will have lower attributes than desired for some things if they are not regens and been shaped from a very young age by the manager and even then they still might lack in one attribute or it might not be as high as you'd like. But remember one attribute in isolation is pointless, it's what he is like overall that matters. One low or average attribute doesn't mean he can't do all the things you still want, it won't make any huge difference to the final outcome.

That's insightful, thank you.

[AcidHC]

Hey Cleon first of all great work mate!

Just wanted to ask you if there is a difference between friendly and competitive matches regarding player development?, cause i was thinking as long as i have all my hot prospects in first team as you suggested, to do a friendly match after each competitive so my youths can get first team experience without results suffering.

[Long Islander]

Two things.

1. I had set (somewhere) for my squad to take a rest day before and after matches. However, I am scheduling u21 matches on Wednesday in addition to my league matches which are usually on Saturday. So my WHOLE squad is not training on 4 days of the week. Not enough training. However, I don't see where the option is to adjust this.

2. I don't have any option of adjusting match preparation. No slider here. What am I doing wrong?

[Cleon]

Two things.

1. I had set (somewhere) for my squad to take a rest day before and after matches. However, I am scheduling u21 matches on Wednesday in addition to my league matches which are usually on Saturday. So my WHOLE squad is not training on 4 days of the week. Not enough training. However, I don't see where the option is to adjust this.

2. I don't have any option of adjusting match preparation. No slider here. What am I doing wrong?

Are you playing FMT? Or normal FM? Or are you a part time club?

[Long Islander]

FM full fat. Part time is probably the case as I am in VNL-North. Is that why the match prep slider isn't available? What about rest days? Always before & after any matches for entire club. Even though only the u21 played?

[Cleon]

I don't think you get any real control while you're part time

[Ross Ingersoll]

Excellent read, very informative. Just started a Bournemouth save and going to incorporate your training tips in it.

[Joey Numbaz]

I have an 'expectations' question here. I think I'm doing everything right. I have:

State of the art training facilities

Top youth facilities

Excellent junior coaching

Extensive youth recruitment

My head of youth development (who I have assigned for the intake) has 18/20 JPA/JPP, Resolute personality, 20 man management, 18 working with youngsters.

I coach Everton, in Liverpool which is a big area to draw from. We have more recent success than Liverpool, our cross town rival. We've been in the Champions League for two years now, won the Europa League before that, finished second in the EPL last season and first this season so far, after 28 games.

So what should I expect as a good youth intake? I feel like it's always disappointing, maybe two players with some potential and a few 2.5 star potential guys and that is it. Is this all I should expect and my expectations are too high? Or am I doing something wrong?

All I got this year was two 2-3 star potential, four 1.5-2.5 star potentials and a bunch of scrubs otherwise.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Joey Numbaz

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

So what should I expect as a good youth intake? I feel like it's always disappointing, maybe two players with some potential and a few 2.5 star potential guys and that is it. Is this all I should expect and my expectations are too high? Or am I doing something wrong?

All I got this year was two 2-3 star potential, four 1.5-2.5 star potentials and a bunch of scrubs otherwise.

How's the rest of your squad?  The star ratings are in relation to your squad, so if you have a team of world class players already then a 3 star potential player is also going to be world class.  Likewise a 2 or 2.5 star player possibly has the potential to be a very good Premier League player in that situation.

But at the end of the day, and regardless of how good your facilities, rep, HoYD and everything else may be, you can't "expect" anything.  You can only give yourself a better chance of generating good newgens.  Sometimes chance will go in your favour, other times it won't.  You're doing everything right to improve your chances, but there are never any guarantees.

[Joey Numbaz]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

How's the rest of your squad?  The star ratings are in relation to your squad, so if you have a team of world class players already then a 3 star potential player is also going to be world class.  Likewise a 2 or 2.5 star player possibly has the potential to be a very good Premier League player in that situation.

But at the end of the day, and regardless of how good your facilities, rep, HoYD and everything else may be, you can't "expect" anything.  You can only give yourself a better chance of generating good newgens.  Sometimes chance will go in your favour, other times it won't.  You're doing everything right to improve your chances, but there are never any guarantees.

Thanks!

I thought the star ratings were relative to my league, not my team. So that's interesting ... and does make me feel better about the youth intake. I just see these guys talking about how they win the 2023 Champions League or something with all homegrown players and I wonder how it's possible! I assume they must getting three or four 4-5 star players every year to do that.

So you are saying that if I have a star player on a bad team, he'll be let's say 4.5 stars, but on a good team in the same league he might only show as 3.5 stars? I never realized it worked that way. Thanks for the insight.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Joey Numbaz

[Jimbokav1971]

On 02/01/2014 at 10:50, Cleon said:

 

Player Personality & Tutoring

 

 

A players personality is made up from hidden attributes;

 

• Adaptability
• Ambition
• Controversy
• Loyalty
• Pressure
• Professionalism
• Sportsmanship
• Temperament

Sometimes some of the descriptions which will be described further down this post will also be made up of;

 

• Determination
• Influence

You might also notice sometimes in a scout/coach report that they give you an indication of the other hideen attributes I've yet to mention. Not all the time mind you but sometimes you might come across them. They would be;

 

• Consistency
• Dirtiness
• Important Matches
• Injury Proneness
• Versatility

Player personalities are a vital part of Football Manager and sometimes are overlooked by people but they can tell you quite a lot about the player and how he'll deal with certain things like team talks, chats, off the field events, on the field events and so on.

Another big part of player personalities is the media handling, its quite clever and intricate how they all link and work. It's a lot to get your head around and very complicated so I'm just going to link you to two threads that go into detail and explain the workings out and how they all link together;

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...Handling-Guide

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...onal-youngster

Smac as actually uploaded a spreadsheet in the second link above that makes it all easier to understand if someone wants to delve deeper into this side of the game.

Below are all the types of personalities that you can find, some are harder to find than others but I think this is the complete list. If I've missed any I do apologise but feel free to add more if you've found some I've missed

Newgens

 

• Model Citizen Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Pre 18-20, Amb 18-20, Loy 18-20, Spo 18-20, Tem 18-20
• Model Professional Pro 20, Tem 10-20
• Professional Pro 18-19, Tem 10-20
• Perfectionist Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Amb 18-20, Tem 1-9
• Resolute Pro 15-20, Det 15-20, Pre 1-16 Spo 5-20
• Temperamental Tem 1-4, Pro 1-10
• Driven Det 20, Amb 10-20
• Determined Det 18-19, Amb 10-20
• Slack Pro 1, Det 1-9, Tem 5-20
• Casual Pro 2-4, Det 1-9, Tem 5-20
• Very Ambitious Amb 20, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17
• Amibitous Amb 16-19, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17
• Unambitious Amb 1-5, Loy 11-20
• Honest Spo 20, Det 1-9, Pro 5-20
• Sporting Spo 18-19, Det 1-9, Pro 5-20
• Easily Discouraged Det 1, Amb 1-9, Spo 1-17, Pro 5-20
• Low Determination Det 2-5, Amb 1-9, Spo 1-17, Pro 5-20
• Unsporting Spo 1, Det 11-20
• Realist Spo 2-4, Det 11-20
• Very Loyal Loy 20, Amb 6-7, Det 6-20
• Loyal Loy 18-19, Amb 6-7, Det 6-20
• Iron Willed Pre 20, Det 15-20, Spo 5-20
• Resilient Pre 17-19, Det 15-20, Spo 5-20
• Spineless Pre 1, Det 1-9, Pro 5-20, Spo 1-17
• Low Self-Belief Pre 2-3, Det 1-9, Pro 5-20, Spo 1-17
• Light-Hearted Pre 15-20, Spo 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 1-17
• Spirited Pre 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 11-17, Spo 1-14
• Jovial Pre 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 1-10, Spo 1-14
• Fairly Professional Pro 15-20, Det 1-14
• Fairly Determined Det 15-20, Pro 1-14, Spo 5-20, Pre 1-16
• Fairly Amibitous Amb 15-20, Pro 1-14, Det 1-14
• Fairly Loyal Loy 15-20, Pro 1-14, Det 1-14, Amb 6-14
• Fairly Sporting Spo 15-20, Pro & Det & Amb & Loy all 1-14
• Balanced Pro 1-14, Det 1-14, Amb 1-14, Loy & Spo 1-14
• Born Leader Inf 20 & Det 20. Age needs to be 23+ (if age requirement not met, he would be Driven).
• Devoted Loy 20 & Amb 6-7
• Leader Inf 19 or Inf 20 & Det < 20

None Newgen's

 

• Model Citizen Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Pre 18-20, Amb 18-20, Loy 18-20, Spo 18-20, Tem 18-20
• Model Professional Pro 20, Tem 10-20
• Professional Pro 18-19, Tem 10-20
• Perfectionist Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Amb 18-20, Tem 1-9
• Driven Det 20, Amb 10-20
• Determined Det 18-19, Amb 10-20
• Very Ambitious Amb 20, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17
• Amibitous Amb 16-19, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17
• Honest Spo 20, Det 1-9
• Sporting Spo 18-19, Det 1-9
• Very Loyal Loy 20, Amb 6-7
• Loyal Loy 18-19, Amb 6-7
• Iron Willed Pre 20, Det 15-20
• Resilient Pre 17-19, Det 15-20
• Light-Hearted Pre 15-20, Spo 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 1-17
• Spirited Pre 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 11-17, Spo 1-14
• Jovial Pre 15-20, Tem 10-20, Pro 1-10, Spo 1-14
• Resolute Pro 15-20, Det 15-20, Pre 1-16
• Fairly Professional Pro 15-20, Det 1-14
• Fairly Determined Det 15-20, Pro 1-14, Pre 1-16
• Fairly Amibitous Amb 15-20, Pro 1-14, Det 1-14
• Fairly Loyal Loy 15-20, Pro 1-14, Det 1-14, Amb 1-14
• Fairly Sporting Spo 15-20, Pro & Det & Amb & Loy all 1-14
• Balanced Pro 1-14, Det 1-14, Amb 1-14, Loy & Spo 1-14
• Born Leader Inf 20 & Det 20. Age needs to be 23+ (if age requirement not met, he would be Driven).
• Devoted Loy 20 & Amb 6-7
• Leader Inf 19 or Inf 20 & Det < 20

As I'm focusing on youth development with the aim of developing/buying cheap and selling for (hopefully) big money then player personality is a big part of what I'm trying to achieve. So for this I need players who I know will train hard and give it their all. What determines this is not determination, that is a misconception amongst the community, what you need to look for in a player is an indication of the hidden attribute professionalism. Ambition wouldn't hurt either but ultimately it is professionalism that determines how well a player applies himself in training.

So with this in mind these are the personalities I'll be trying to give my players;

Model Citizen – This would be the best one to have but they are limited and in really short reply. In fact so far in all my saves I have only managed to find two players who have this personality.

Resolute – This is one of my favourite personalities due to high level of professionalism and determination. While I don't class determination as a vital attribute that players must have there is no hard in having players who do have good determination. It will help with on field events and make me stronger tactically.

Perfectionist – Again this shows a player to have high determination, ambition and professionalism but does highlight low temperament.

Spirited – Decent temperament, good pressure and professionalism

Model Professional/Professional/Fairly Professional – Good professionalism and decent temperament

There are other personalities that I could possibly use but for the purpose of pure youth development I find these 5 to be key for how I play and what I want to achieve. Others might prefer to do it a different way and that's fine its just this way works for me

This should give you an idea of what kind of tutors I'll be trying to bring into the club. Some tutors though might be brought in purely for PPM training though, I'll go into this more specifically a little later in the thread.

 

Tutoring FAQ's

 

Some people put a lot of thought and effort into picking tutors for their players and like to choose similar personality types. For me this isn't the case and seems to go against what I am wanting to create. So I will try and tutor people even if they have a total mismatch of personalities, after all for me this is what tutoring is all about. I don't expect to always be successful in this approach but the benefits from when it is successful should out gain the times it fails. At least in theory anyway and is something I will try and keep track of.

People always ask a few common questions so I'll try and answer them now;

Q - How long do I have to wait to be able to tutor again with the same tutor? A - It is 1 month and should be fixed in a patch. If this still isn't working for you even after the next update then please report it in the bugs forum.

Q - What are the requirements for a player to be able to tutor? A - The tutor must have a better squad status than the person being tutored. He also needs to be of a higher rep. They need to both have a similar position in common. You can't tutor and learn a PPM at the same time.

Q - The person I want to tutor has lower determination but a better personality type than the person being tutored, will the lose of determination hard him development? A - No. Determination isn't linked to player development that is Ambition and Professionalism. All that matters is the player has a better personality type. You can check out what personality types are positive/negative further up the thread.

Q - What's the difference between the 2 tutoring options? A - The top option allows possible transfer of PPM's and personality. The bottom option is just the personality part of tutoring without the risk of the player picking up a PPM.

On FM14 on the players development tab > training tab it will now tell you why someone doesn't have a tutoring options if none are available so be sure to check this out.

There is also a myth that some believe that if you tutor a player then the mental attributes will rise if the tutor has better mental attributes than the person being tutored. This is not correct at all. The only visible attribute that is influenced by tutoring is determination. All the other attributes that change via tutoring and all hidden ones.

I know that some of these "templates" are a little out of date now, but has anyone compiled an accurate more recent list? 

The suggestion that there are significantly more Model Citizen's in FM19 suggest that it will need to be done again anyway, but just interested to see if anyone has compiled more recent info. 

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

I know that some of these "templates" are a little out of date now, but has anyone compiled an accurate more recent list? 

The suggestion that there are significantly more Model Citizen's in FM19 suggest that it will need to be done again anyway, but just interested to see if anyone has compiled more recent info. 

No no one did one. It was also changed for the start of FM18. So I doubt anyone will have such a thing done any time soon.

[herne79]

57 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

The suggestion that there are significantly more Model Citizen's in FM19

I've missed this, where was that suggested?

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I've missed this, where was that suggested?

One of those invited to the FM19 capture even at the weekend had 3 Model Citizens in his squad. I have never ever seen even 1 in my long-term saves.

I'm looking for it now. 

Yeah, @MerryGuido tweeted a picture of it that I don't want to post in case someone doesn't want to know who they are. 

1 of them is only 20 so it's possible he has been successfully tutored in the Alpha, but the other 2 players are 28 and 32 respectively. 

 

[Jimbokav1971]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

No no one did one. It was also changed for the start of FM18. So I doubt anyone will have such a thing done any time soon.

Cheers @CleonDo you mind if I ask how you compiled the info the 1st time round? Can you go into the editor and find some sort of template for each personality, or did you have to work it out by adjusting attributes yourself? 

If it's a matter of going into the editor and copying info then I'm up for creating a new list based on FM19, but if I have to work it out myself then I thin I'll pass thanks. 

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

One of those invited to the FM19 capture even at the weekend had 3 Model Citizens in his squad. I have never ever seen even 1 in my long-term saves.

I'm looking for it now. 

Yeah, @MerryGuido tweeted a picture of it that I don't want to post in case someone doesn't want to know who they are. 

1 of them is only 20 so it's possible he has been successfully tutored in the Alpha, but the other 2 players are 28 and 32 respectively. 

 

Ahh ok.  Remember as well that these early builds usually also have the in game editor enabled, so it's possible it was just someone altering things.

 

22 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Do you mind if I ask how you compiled the info the 1st time round? Can you go into the editor and find some sort of template for each personality, or did you have to work it out by adjusting attributes yourself? 

If you read the rest of Cleon's post you quoted, he provided links to the resources used.

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Ahh ok.  Remember as well that these early builds usually also have the in game editor enabled, so it's possible it was just someone altering things.

Oh. yeah possibly. 

Oh! I must have missed that. Thanks. Will go and have a look. 

[Columnarius]

@Cleon This is one of my favorite threads of yours of all time BTW.

[Joey Numbaz]

He said this is how it was (3 model citizens) when he took the team. He thinks it might have something to do with the new community outreach stuff. Maybe that was on Twitter? I forget where I saw it.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[gpassosbh]

Hello @Cleon,

Saw your post last week on this.
This is a good time to get this thread a revival, isn´t it?

[Cleon]

9 minutes ago, gpassosbh said:

Hello @Cleon,

Saw your post last week on this.
This is a good time to get this thread a revival, isn´t it?

Too much effort for me considering the stuff I'm already doing for FM19

[Cleon]

Okay I changed my mind. I really want to showcase how the new training module works and how you can tailor it for a specific brand of football. So coming soon will be a much better/updated version of this thread;

[zemaniano85]

@Cleon this is really what I was waiting for...... I am a fun of your articles, and I successfully learned from them tha now it became so easy to make tactics ... thanks

[Deego619]

21 hours ago, Cleon said:

Okay I changed my mind. I really want to showcase how the new training module works and how you can tailor it for a specific brand of football. So coming soon will be a much better/updated version of this thread;

Really looking forward to this. I've pretty much left the new training module to my coaches and have managed YD on an old school give them 15+mins game time/focus on attributes approach of the older games. I feel there's so much I'm missing out on.

[fc.cadoni]

On 21/03/2019 at 18:27, Cleon said:

Okay I changed my mind. I really want to showcase how the new training module works and how you can tailor it for a specific brand of football. So coming soon will be a much better/updated version of this thread;

Any update to this? I know it's FM19, but interesting to hear more from you!

[JahRastafari]

Hi @Cleon! Now that Ajax is having a record bad season, any chance this topic gets revisited? 

[HanziZoloman]

Yeah @Cleon that’s the core