Ajax - When Real Life Meets Football Manager - FM14

[Cleon]

A follow up question on training.

I understand the difference between General and Match training. But what about the drop down menu on the calender which has Match Preparation?

All three can be set to different things, yet the scheduling bar mentions General and Match Training only, yet Match Prep is what is then effected on the calender when moved.

Any help?

If you understand the difference between match/general then you know the answer. I even explain the difference in post 10 Match prep is match training.

[Cleon]

Absolutely magnificent thread ive just deleted my save to embark on a new adventure after reading the opening post, great work Cleon i really do admire your work.

Thanks

Love the name too one of my favourite players of all time

[mojojojo101]

Great thread again Cleon, really looking forward to following it again after last years version

A player needs atleast 15 mins per match to get a rating. But as for the number of games/minutes he needs during the same there isn't a magic number but rather more game time is always better. So just give them as much as you feel is possible for the club you have.

Just as a follow up to this which has been on my mind for the last week or so. As you say a player needs 15 minutes to get a match rating, but will young players see a bigger benefit from playing more minutes or is it as simple as them just being in the squad and getting on the pitch which helps them to develop?

[Cleon]

Great thread again Cleon, really looking forward to following it again after last years version

Just as a follow up to this which has been on my mind for the last week or so. As you say a player needs 15 minutes to get a match rating, but will young players see a bigger benefit from playing more minutes or is it as simple as them just being in the squad and getting on the pitch which helps them to develop?

I answered this about 2 questions up. More minutes/game time the better

[nickdc]

If you understand the difference between match/general then you know the answer. I even explain the difference in post 10 Match prep is match training.

Hi Cleon, if they are one and the same, how is it possible to have match training and match preparation set to different areas?

And if you can set a certain % of training to Match Training, wouldn't this be a percentage for everyday? Yet sliding the bar means whole days are given over to Match Prep.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, if they are one and the same, how is it possible to have match training and match preparation set to different areas?

And if you can set a certain % of training to Match Training, wouldn't this be a percentage for everyday? Yet sliding the bar means whole days are given over to Match Prep.

The sliders gives you more match training or less match training. If you set the bar all the way to right you'll see you get no match preparation days. The slider is a split between match/general training. So depending on what % you choose determines how long is spent on each one. And no you can't give the whole day to match training you can only do that for general training. The max match training you can have is 50%.

[smplfc123]

I know you've heard this before, but just wanted to say great thread and now you've inspired me to start a new challenge with a better mentality at looking at the game in the long term!

[nickdc]

The sliders gives you more match training or less match training. If you set the bar all the way to right you'll see you get no match preparation days. The slider is a split between match/general training. So depending on what % you choose determines how long is spent on each one. And no you can't give the whole day to match training you can only do that for general training. The max match training you can have is 50%.

...yet if I have it all the way to 50% then on the calender below the two days prior to the match are set aside to Match Preparation, and can be set to a different area to Match Training. That's where I'm getting confused.

Does that mean there are three areas of training? General, Match Prep and Match Training?

[Cleon]

...yet if I have it all the way to 50% then on the calender below the two days prior to the match are set aside to Match Preparation, and can be set to a different area to Match Training. That's where I'm getting confused.

Does that mean there are three areas of training? General, Match Prep and Match Training?

No. You only get 1 match training day and its up to you which you select to work on for the slight boost for the next game.

Match training and Match prep are the same thing. Match training is the name given to the slider which determines how much you want the split to be between general/match.

I must be missing something really obvious with your question because I can't see what's confusing so my apologies.

[nickdc]

Haha, I can't see what you're not understanding lol.

On my FM14, when you slide the slider further to the left, the days in the calender increase their shading for match prep. So 20% you have half a day on Friday, 30% is all day Friday, then 40 then 50 take up the Thursday. And these shaded days have a drop down menu for Match Prep. Though they are the same list of areas as Match Training, but like I say can be set to different areas.

I guess we'll agree to be confused.

[Cleon]

Haha, I can't see what you're not understanding lol.

On my FM14, when you slide the slider further to the left, the days in the calender increase their shading for match prep. So 20% you have half a day on Friday, 30% is all day Friday, then 40 then 50 take up the Thursday. And these shaded days have a drop down menu for Match Prep. Though they are the same list of areas as Match Training, but like I say can be set to different areas.

I guess we'll agree to be confused.

Yes and I explained what this is already, hence why I can't understand what you are on about

If you've raised it to 50% then you'll have more time spent working on match training hence why the colour changes to identify this on the calendar because you've choose less general training. You can set any match prep drop down box for anything you like, they don't all have to be the same.

[Torskus77]

Haha, I can't see what you're not understanding lol.

On my FM14, when you slide the slider further to the left, the days in the calender increase their shading for match prep. So 20% you have half a day on Friday, 30% is all day Friday, then 40 then 50 take up the Thursday. And these shaded days have a drop down menu for Match Prep. Though they are the same list of areas as Match Training, but like I say can be set to different areas.

I guess we'll agree to be confused.

I know what you mean.

The boxes in the day windows on the calender have a drop down box which says Match Prep (I think it is) this will follow what you have set at the top of your page, and should be colour coded to grey if it's Tactics only. However if you want on one of the days to select something different for your match prep, then you can change it on the calender day, without affecting the main setting and all the other days. Does that make any sense?

[Welsh Wizard]

Match training and Match prep are the same thing. It just allows you to alter for that one week while keeping the match prep the same for the others

[nickdc]

Ahhh, ok. Thank you guys.

So the General Training and Match Training either side of the schedule bar are in a way your own default choice.

General Training can be changed with the drop down positioned at the start of every week. And the Match Training can be altered with the drop down menu that appears on days that become shaded depending on what percentage you have scheduled for mach training.

And given e.g. 50% shows Thursday and Friday shaded solely for Match Prep, does that mean there is no General Training on these days, or merely symbolic of the 50% training time throughout the entire week?

[Fish]

If you put all your players in the Senior Squad then just mark players as available for U21 or U18 teams surely all players are being trained by senior staff? Does this mean that the youth training facilities arn't used as well as the U18 staff (other than manager/assistant manager)?

[coach vahid]

Hi cleon

great thread once again. Beautiful work.

I would like to have some informations about your tactic.

Can you give more informations about individual instruction for each position.( do you use OI do you change strategy during match.....)

Thanks

[Fish]

A follow up question - no non-EU players under 18 can be picked for the squad in every competition in the Netherlands. Should I just not bother buying any players from outside of the EU until they are 18 if they can't get any playing time?

[nickdc]

If you put all your players in the Senior Squad then just mark players as available for U21 or U18 teams surely all players are being trained by senior staff? Does this mean that the youth training facilities arn't used as well as the U18 staff (other than manager/assistant manager)?

Youth are youth curtsey of their contract. When they go full time pros, then they're first team. What squad you place them in is merely admin.

[Fish]

Youth are youth curtsey of their contract. When they go full time pros, then they're first team. What squad you place them in is merely admin.

Thanks a lot.

Edit: Doesn't seem to be the case. Moved all my players to the Senior Squad and in the Individual section of the Senior Squad training are players with youth contracts and in the Individual section of the U18 Squad training there are only greyed out players.

[Dr. Hook]

I have a general question about training youths. I keep a U18 team, and I just now realized I ought to set the training focus for them ( a benefit to having them all on one squad). I have my senior team training on tactics as a focus. I set my youths to fitness as a focus. Do any of you find that that is the best thing for the U18s to develop their bodies rather than have them working on other attributes? I had a mind to set tactics as the focus for them to develop their football brains, but I need to get their physicals moving up also, and I have been under the impression that the u18 ages are the best times to develop physical attributes, and that improvements in those areas slow down as they get older.

[Cleon]

Hi cleon

great thread once again. Beautiful work.

I would like to have some informations about your tactic.

Can you give more informations about individual instruction for each position.( do you use OI do you change strategy during match.....)

Thanks

All the info about the tactic is all in the post already.

A follow up question - no non-EU players under 18 can be picked for the squad in every competition in the Netherlands. Should I just not bother buying any players from outside of the EU until they are 18 if they can't get any playing time?

This is down to personal choice.

If you put all your players in the Senior Squad then just mark players as available for U21 or U18 teams surely all players are being trained by senior staff? Does this mean that the youth training facilities arn't used as well as the U18 staff (other than manager/assistant manager)?

Yups all trained by senior staff so all senior stuff is used.

I have a general question about training youths. I keep a U18 team, and I just now realized I ought to set the training focus for them ( a benefit to having them all on one squad). I have my senior team training on tactics as a focus. I set my youths to fitness as a focus. Do any of you find that that is the best thing for the U18s to develop their bodies rather than have them working on other attributes? I had a mind to set tactics as the focus for them to develop their football brains, but I need to get their physicals moving up also, and I have been under the impression that the u18 ages are the best times to develop physical attributes, and that improvements in those areas slow down as they get older.

It's all personal choice really. I don't like to focus on anything other than balanced and the way I handle youths and what I train are all highlighted in the thread

[coach vahid]

Thanks for your answer.

So you don't use indivuals instructions? Because i tried your ajax's vision but the results are bad so i thought i missed something on the tactic's thread.

[remembertofeedthecat]

@Cleon

Just wondering gaffer, if your coaches tell you that a player isn't capable of gaining/losing a PPM do you shelve the idea or go ahead with it anyway?

I haven't really played enough of the game to have tested it out myself. Cheers

[cmonreds]

Thanks for your answer.

So you don't use indivuals instructions? Because i tried your ajax's vision but the results are bad so i thought i missed something on the tactic's thread.

I tried the set-up in a testing game I have. Went on holiday untill it was fluid. The set-up is very good theoretically at a first glance. The results with Liverpool were very good for me. Solid defendig and a good amount of qualified chances.

A few questions for you Cleon. Do you change your DM to Half Back against formations with two strikers? Also you opted for a setting with two controllers in the central midfield (DM/HB), do you ever change this as well?

[ky jelly]

i know it’s not very Ajax thing of me to do, but usually i sack most of my youth who has PA of less than 105-110ish (using FMScout) and sign any high PA youths available on freebies or cheap compensation. usually my youth team is rather trimmed at about 15ish players to allow more game time and presumably better coaching.

do you find those low PA youths to be a waste of space and effort in the squad?

[Hoarau]

Fantastic Cleon, what a read.. very promising.

Great choice of club to try something like this, as youve done before. As an Ajax player myself this is of great interest to me as i've be very big on player development in my 4 seasons so far and the Eredivise gives you the oppertunity to both bleed youngsters more frequnetly than perhaps other leagues yet maintain a quite good level of competition.

Do you know in all the years i've played FM i've never onced used the "Notes" feature untill i read what you'd typed above, given FM13 & 14's new training systems it really lends itself to going hand in hand.. its almost like present day managers having a dossier of information to track and keep for reference. Thanks for that! I'll be keeping very up to date with this thread and if it isnt stepping on your toes i'd like to share some development ive had with the Ajax youngsters myself?

[Cleon]

Thanks for your answer.

So you don't use indivuals instructions? Because i tried your ajax's vision but the results are bad so i thought i missed something on the tactic's thread.

You're not going to get the same results if you don't understand how the shape works or the reasoning behind it.

@Cleon

Just wondering gaffer, if your coaches tell you that a player isn't capable of gaining/losing a PPM do you shelve the idea or go ahead with it anyway?

I haven't really played enough of the game to have tested it out myself. Cheers

Nope I ignore them, I'm the boss

I tried the set-up in a testing game I have. Went on holiday untill it was fluid. The set-up is very good theoretically at a first glance. The results with Liverpool were very good for me. Solid defendig and a good amount of qualified chances.

A few questions for you Cleon. Do you change your DM to Half Back against formations with two strikers? Also you opted for a setting with two controllers in the central midfield (DM/HB), do you ever change this as well?

I actually use an HB now and 2 Complete WB's

i know it’s not very Ajax thing of me to do, but usually i sack most of my youth who has PA of less than 105-110ish (using FMScout) and sign any high PA youths available on freebies or cheap compensation. usually my youth team is rather trimmed at about 15ish players to allow more game time and presumably better coaching.

do you find those low PA youths to be a waste of space and effort in the squad?

I don't know the PA of my players. I train every single player the same though regardless of how good they are.

Fantastic Cleon, what a read.. very promising.

Great choice of club to try something like this, as youve done before. As an Ajax player myself this is of great interest to me as i've be very big on player development in my 4 seasons so far and the Eredivise gives you the oppertunity to both bleed youngsters more frequnetly than perhaps other leagues yet maintain a quite good level of competition.

Do you know in all the years i've played FM i've never onced used the "Notes" feature untill i read what you'd typed above, given FM13 & 14's new training systems it really lends itself to going hand in hand.. its almost like present day managers having a dossier of information to track and keep for reference. Thanks for that! I'll be keeping very up to date with this thread and if it isnt stepping on your toes i'd like to share some development ive had with the Ajax youngsters myself?

I was hoping some of the regulars from the Ajax thread might see this and feel like contributing. It would be great to see some of your development and how you've trained the players to suit you and for what you need. So feel free to post, more the merrier

[yonko]

Cleon, it's very interesting to see you go against wwfan's guide/recommendation regarding specialists roles and fluidity. Of course I do it all the time and I remember reading that you do so too.

I'm referring to your use of F9, AP and DLP - 3 specialist roles in Very Fluid system. And now you said you've switched to HB, which I also consider a specialist.

[Cleon]

Cleon, it's very interesting to see you go against wwfan's guide/recommendation regarding specialists roles and fluidity. Of course I do it all the time and I remember reading that you do so too.

I'm referring to your use of F9, AP and DLP - 3 specialist roles in Very Fluid system. And now you said you've switched to HB, which I also consider a specialist.

It's because I'm using them for the settings the role offers rather than the actual creative outlets.

[yonko]

It's because I'm using them for the settings the role offers rather than the actual creative outlets.

I know. And the fact that this gives your side 3 playmakers rather than just one, which the opposition can focus on to eliminate.

But why is there an argument that the settings of these specialists can be mimicked through adjusting instructions for say regular CM role for example to play like an AP?

I mean I get what you're doing and I think it should show others that you can break from the guidelines, and have 3 playmakers in a Very Fluid system. Interestingly, in the last few days (before you started this thread) I'm also experimenting with Very Fluid and using the same playmaking roles, with the only deference being that my AP has supporting role rather than attacking.

I like using multiple playmaking roles and now I'm kind of glad that in FM14 we don't have to select just one player as the designated playmaker (as in past FM editions) and the role is shared based on the roles selected.

Do you plan on posting how the tactic is playing out and/or evolving? Knowing you, you probably will.....

[Cleon]

I know. And the fact that this gives your side 3 playmakers rather than just one, which the opposition can focus on to eliminate.

But why is there an argument that the settings of these specialists can be mimicked through adjusting instructions for say regular CM role for example to play like an AP?

I mean I get what you're doing and I think it should show others that you can break from the guidelines, and have 3 playmakers in a Very Fluid system. Interestingly, in the last few days (before you started this thread) I'm also experimenting with Very Fluid and using the same playmaking roles, with the only deference being that my AP has supporting role rather than attacking.

I like using multiple playmaking roles and now I'm kind of glad that in FM14 we don't have to select just one player as the designated playmaker (as in past FM editions) and the role is shared based on the roles selected.

Do you plan on posting how the tactic is playing out and/or evolving? Knowing you, you probably will.....

I did't plan posting about the tactic because people will be like 'Oh it's Ajax, it's easy'. But if people actually think there is something to be discussed or learnt then I can easily add something about it at some stage. It'll actually give me a little break from writing about the training side if truth be told.

[The Malazan Empire]

I did't plan posting about the tactic because people will be like 'Oh it's Ajax, it's easy'. But if people actually think there is something to be discussed or learnt then I can easily add something about it at some stage. It'll actually give me a little break from writing about the training side if truth be told.

Hi Cleon great thread. I adopted a similiar tactical framework that you laid out as I always like playing with AJAX and working with the excellent youth players that come out every year.

So adopting your tactical framework (although most likely not identical) i find that i absolutely dominate possesion (approx. 65-70%) every match but create very few scoring opportunites. The tactic plays more or less how id like it with some beautiful possession football but just not scoring enough at the moment.

How does it work for you? Do you creat many CCC's and score plenty of goals?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon great thread. I adopted a similiar tactical framework that you laid out as I always like playing with AJAX and working with the excellent youth players that come out every year.

So adopting your tactical framework (although most likely not identical) i find that i absolutely dominate possesion (approx. 65-70%) every match but create very few scoring opportunites. The tactic plays more or less how id like it with some beautiful possession football but just not scoring enough at the moment.

How does it work for you? Do you creat many CCC's and score plenty of goals?

I score plenty of goals and create a lot of CCC's. The thing is you've copied my framework but don't know the ideas behind it or which players you need and which PPM's. What you should have done is done a framework that suits you and not to focus on how I play the game because I'm a very reactive manager so change things in game instantly when I see something wrong etc.

[Torskus77]

I'd like to hear more about the tactic, as it's very similar to the one I am trying to set up (role wise at least) we have different ideas about what we want to d, but it's still interesting to read. I don't see why being Ajax should be easy when you have people posting that they can't win with Liverpool, Barcelona etc etc, and you are using a lot of youth players too.

[GEORGE WEAH]

So far i have not played any friendlies ive been busy putting all my training and tutoring in place witch i took my time over, ive really enjoyed doing this i have never done anything like this on FM before ive looked at every single player at the club and thought about how i want to mould them, ive made two additions so far ive brought in the legendary Rivaldo to do some tutoring and also signed Joso Bandic from Dinamo as a youth coach this guy has been part of a very successful dinamo back room staff that has brought through the likes of Luka Modric. ive tried to get Patrick Kluivert but he is not interested i wonder if that has anything to do with him been on team Van Gaal

[Welsh Wizard]

I think your tactical aim/plan would help show what you are trying to develop your youth players in to and why you decide to train certain things so could fit in with the player development.

[Cleon]

I've thought about it but decided I won't be posting any analysis of the tactic, I really can't be bothered and don't really have the time. Speaking about the players should be more than enough for people to understand why I've trained players a certain way etc once I've finished it.

[GEORGE WEAH]

Ill be very interested to hear about the players you have sold Cleon in your first season ive had some very good offers for some of my more established players.

[Dr. Hook]

I've read through this and didn't see it, but I am curious as to what age you give up on a player and decide he isn't going to be good enough?

[Cleon]

I've read through this and didn't see it, but I am curious as to what age you give up on a player and decide he isn't going to be good enough?

If he isn't playing regular by 20 then I don't see the point of developing them at the club any further if he's been there since 15/16. If the player didn't arrive until 18ish then I'd give him until 22/23. It's more about the attribute development though and you know if someone is developing or not going to fit into your team.

[Dr. Hook]

If he isn't playing regular by 20 then I don't see the point of developing them at the club any further if he's been there since 15/16. If the player didn't arrive until 18ish then I'd give him until 22/23. It's more about the attribute development though and you know if someone is developing or not going to fit into your team.

Thanks for the reply. That is about what I was figuring, though because I am at a very low level with crap facilities, I am finding development past 18 difficult. I suppose that if I am more proactive about giving games to these youngsters that might work better.

[Sammie B]

I am trying to implement this on a much smaller scale on a lower spainish club, unfortunately my under 19s squad was empty at the start of the season though. Few questions though.

When do you set up individual training for your players? Start of the season or once everyone is match fit?

Also on your post about notes for the 6/12/18 month reviews what are you looking for here? Progress on the attributes you have chosen to train?

Thanks

[Cleon]

I am trying to implement this on a much smaller scale on a lower spainish club, unfortunately my under 19s squad was empty at the start of the season though. Few questions though.

When do you set up individual training for your players? Start of the season or once everyone is match fit?

Also on your post about notes for the 6/12/18 month reviews what are you looking for here? Progress on the attributes you have chosen to train?

Thanks

For the first game of the season after I've worked on team cohesion for preseason.

As for the reviews in the notes section, I look at attributes, coach reports, personality etc and make sure I'm seeing improvements.

[omarm88]

Hi Cleao,

Any recommendations on how to develop these 2 youngsters. At Crewe 2nd season. I see Cassidy playing as a CM(S) and Makin as an AF(A).

Cheers

[wakey24]

Depending on our setup Omarm88, I would train Makin into a DLF and Cassidy as an Anchorman, but thats probably mre for my setup.

[Cross]

An anchorman with no strenght and tackling? I would focus the training on CM or B2B midfielder with Cassidy. Makin can be the CF/DLF or TM

And Cleon: Maybe I missed it, but what is the difference between Heavy, Average and Light training? When do I use it and why? I tend to put all my youth players on heavy regimes, but is that really better for a faster development?

[wakey24]

You can work on strength, tackling and jumping. Bravery, heading, work rate, acceleration all looking good.

[chocolatecoatedballs]

Helo cleon.

Enjoyable reading again! And I realy enjoy your references to real life, even the drill examples I find interesting.

I do remember last time you provided a link of top clubs youth structures and philosophies as a pdf, I would be delighted if you could provide the same again (unless of course it deosn't exist anymore).

You may enjoy reading this pdf, ssg drills, based largely on KNVB, which is the dutch fa training.

http://www.bifc.net/doclib/smallsidedgames.pdf

[Bgj101]

I have a few questions:

1. I saw that you want to get 16 players for development, but do you do this each season. So, do you have 16 season 1, 32, season 2, etc?

2. What is your timeline like for development? 14-18=physical development, 19-21=tutoring & position training, 21=loaning.....

3. When do you drop a youth candidate? What are you looking for in a keeper and at what age?

Just a few...

[Cleon]

Helo cleon.

Enjoyable reading again! And I realy enjoy your references to real life, even the drill examples I find interesting.

I do remember last time you provided a link of top clubs youth structures and philosophies as a pdf, I would be delighted if you could provide the same again (unless of course it deosn't exist anymore).

You may enjoy reading this pdf, ssg drills, based largely on KNVB, which is the dutch fa training.

http://www.bifc.net/doclib/smallsidedgames.pdf

Already seen it, thanks though

If you follow the first link in the opening post it takes you to the site where you can download the PDF from last year

I have a few questions:

1. I saw that you want to get 16 players for development, but do you do this each season. So, do you have 16 season 1, 32, season 2, etc?

2. What is your timeline like for development? 14-18=physical development, 19-21=tutoring & position training, 21=loaning.....

3. When do you drop a youth candidate? What are you looking for in a keeper and at what age?

Just a few...

1. It takes a few seasons to set up properly because the teams are already full when the game starts, so it takes time to get this up and running. But normally I just take what comes from my own academy rather than buy people so it depends on how many actually come through. But I do try and stick to the 16 players is possible

2. I never loan a player out ever because if you do then you lose time developing them into the player you want them to be. The most important thing is tutoring and making sure they have the right personality types and this can be a length process if someone needs to be tutored 2 or 3 times. I always start with tutoring while focusing on the attributes like described in the player section

3. When a contract ends I don't renew it if I think they aren't going to make the grade. As for keepers, I like to have different kinds if I can't find someone who is good at everything. That way I can play them in different scenarios.