Ajax – When The Real World Meets Football Manager FM14

[RTHerringbone]

Thank you Cleon for starting this post as I have used this thread as a teaching guide for my non forumer friends new to this game.

Here's an idea for some of you who have an evil streak inside. Once you have the finances, buy up as many good potential youths as possible. Even if you have no plans on using them in the future. Take your pick of the best from the lot and train them as you would following the thread. For the rest who will not figure in your future plans, put them on low training and send them to as many different countries on loans.

What this does is make those players develop much slower then sell them at around age 20-21. Loaning out to many different countries consecutively will also prevent home grown and nation grown status of said players. Rival teams will still buy these players at a profit due to their potential.

Now your team has the advantage in terms of player quality at an earlier age and also home grown status. This will help you dominate further not only domestically but also in continental competitions.

Not really in the spirit of the game, is it?

[Cleon]

Thank you Cleon for starting this post as I have used this thread as a teaching guide for my non forumer friends new to this game.

Here's an idea for some of you who have an evil streak inside. Once you have the finances, buy up as many good potential youths as possible. Even if you have no plans on using them in the future. Take your pick of the best from the lot and train them as you would following the thread. For the rest who will not figure in your future plans, put them on low training and send them to as many different countries on loans.

What this does is make those players develop much slower then sell them at around age 20-21. Loaning out to many different countries consecutively will also prevent home grown and nation grown status of said players. Rival teams will still buy these players at a profit due to their potential.

Now your team has the advantage in terms of player quality at an earlier age and also home grown status. This will help you dominate further not only domestically but also in continental competitions.

I can dominate without doing that. I don't see the point in playing this way. Each to their own though but it certainly has no place in this thread if people want to choose that path

[ModernLefty]

I just find that path abit sad metac0gnition, sure it allows you to win abit easier. But it takes all the challenge and realism out of it, when is the last time you saw a team, buy players and loan them out with no intention of ever playing them.

I can understand, real world teams buying several good youth players and a couple not developing or making the grade, but wholesale hording of youth, just because you can, is pretty implausible when young players cost so much in today's football economics.

I think the path that improves the challenge and enjoyment, is to slowly shrink the areas you actually transfer players from as you get further into the game, until eventually you're either focussed on developing just that nations players, or you take a Barcelona approach where it's all your youth academy and only occasionally buy players to fill gaps. This gives the A.I.'s dodgy squad building it gives them a chance to compete and make FM fun and a challenge.

[Gary_Parker]

I just find that path abit sad metac0gnition, sure it allows you to win abit easier. But it takes all the challenge and realism out of it, when is the last time you saw a team, buy players and loan them out with no intention of ever playing them.

Chelsea? De Bruyne and Courtois?

Cleon, how do you overcome the problem with players giving up on their tutoring after only a few weeks? Is there specific personalities that will clash or is it just a combination of factors that i'm unaware of?

For example, I set one of my players to be tutored by a model professional. After agreeing to be tutored (aggressively for some reason) I get the inbox message saying the tutoring had stopped because the players weren't getting on and there was too much of a difference between them.

[ModernLefty]

Courtois, is being groomed to be their number one, he will either get played in the next couple of years by Chelsea, or if he never gets the chance, which he should, he is a useful makeweight in a Falcao transfer. That's effective loaning, not stunting your rivals loaning, obvious difference. Far better for him to go out and win a Europa league than sit on the bench behind Cech.

De Bruyne likewise, he should be probably brought into the team next year. He just obviously wasn't considered strong enough, for the Premier League at that point, the old cliche. He hasn't been bought solely for the purpose of clogging up youth and loaned, he was available for a reasonable price so they bought him to develop, to bring into the team in the next couple of years, it just hasn't happened yet. It's better for him to play constantly for Bremen than sit on the bench like Marin and not develop.

P.S. And the best way to get past that issue, is to have a range of tutor personality types in your squad that are good but incrementally increasing mentally. For instance with a 7-9, determination player, it works better to have a 13 or 14 determination mind set player, get him to about 12-13, then pass him on to your 16-17 determination player after he has gone through the previous player. Due to his improved personality, the clash won't be there anymore. Obviously don't just focus on determination but shaping their all around personality that was just a basic example.

It then works like a neat conveyor belt of personality and talent development. Then eventually at 21 they are fully formed and ready to stand on their own two feet, mentality wise.

[Gary_Parker]

Courtois, is being groomed to be their number one, he will either get played in the next couple of years by Chelsea, or if he never gets the chance, which he should, he is a useful makeweight in a Falcao transfer. That's effective loaning, not stunting your rivals loaning, obvious difference. Far better for him to go out and win a Europa league than sit on the bench behind Cech.

De Bruyne likewise, he should be probably brought into the team next year. He just obviously wasn't considered strong enough, for the Premier League at that point, the old cliche. He hasn't been bought solely for the purpose of clogging up youth and loaned, he was available for a reasonable price so they bought him to develop, to bring into the team in the next couple of years, it just hasn't happened yet. It's better for him to play constantly for Bremen than sit on the bench like Marin and not develop.

P.S. And the best way to get past that issue, is to have a range of tutor personality types in your squad that are good but incrementally increasing mentally. For instance with a 7-9, determination player, it works better to have a 13 or 14 determination mind set player, get him to about 12-13, then pass him on to your 16-17 determination player after he has gone through the previous player. Due to his improved personality, the clash won't be there anymore. Obviously don't just focus on determination but shaping their all around personality that was just a basic example.

It then works like a neat conveyor belt of personality and talent development. Then eventually at 21 they are fully formed and ready to stand on their own two feet, mentality wise.

I see what you're saying there, that's along my train of thought there too. Thanks for that.

[Bigpapa42]

Perhaps your DLP has just high enough professionalism to help him improve so much but not high enough for his personality to change.

I actually double-checked using a tool and his improved professionalism (after the tutoring) is really no better than several of the other propsects who don't to be improving in the same dynamic manner. I've actually starting using the player as a sub a bit and even had him start a full league match, where he performend adequately.

I wouldn't have used an editing tool to check his hidden stats but I realized I won't go beyond the first season with this game so I'm trying to use it as a learning platform. Might be random luck, but was curious if there was anything else beyond the professionalism and ambition that could result in him improving so much more...?

[donpost2]

How much of a role does match rating have in the improvement of players? It seems to me to be very important in my limited experience.

[Animosama]

Yea it does there hidden attributes with improve, such as consistency, big matches and they will give increase in attributes(technical,memtal, physcial). Their morale will improve and they will train better.

[mibsweden]

then i must have what is called The golden generation coming up the ranks for three years in succesion...one of the guys is called Mahatma Gandhi already see him as a captain in 5 years and reliable deep lying playmaker

now that i think of it, my HOY retired and i brought a brasilian guy which is also 20/20 but his intake was only one 5 star and one 4 star player. the retired guy had only one or two two star players rest 4 or 5.

DO you have a screenshot or stats of that retired HOYD? Would be nice to see what kind of atributes he had.

[mibsweden]

I am thinking about HOYD and the kind of players he brings in to the club... personality, media-handling style, preferred formation, pressing style, playing style, coaching style, playing mentality, marking style, reputation - apart from the stats themselves of course.

I wonder how all this fits in to how well he can do his job.

[Cleon]

I am thinking about HOYD and the kind of players he brings in to the club... personality, media-handling style, preferred formation, pressing style, playing style, coaching style, playing mentality, marking style, reputation - apart from the stats themselves of course.

I wonder how all this fits in to how well he can do his job.

It's all already explained in the thread on the first page.

[BurghBear]

Like pretty much everyone else, great thread. Really interesting points and tips. I've been playing through a Rangers save and as they started in the 3rd division I was able to buy a full team and then some of youngsters and develop them and have them playing 20 or 30 games per season. Bought the odd older pro with certain PPM's or personality and worked well. The only thing I've found is the changing star rating given as my team improved, some dropped off from 5 stars as they got left behind by better prospects. I assume this is due to the 5 star rating being a reflection on the team rather than globally.

[tajj 7]

well, yes and no.

if initial attributes of a player are just about right then it is quite easy to get almost perfect player. somehow i got a immense intakes for 2 or three years in row that produced tons of great offensive players, DM's and centerbacks. most of the strikers got nearly perfect initial attribute distribution for inside forwards (dribbling, finishing, first touch, technique, composure, anticipation, off ball, agility, balance) all i had to do is retrain them to amL/R and ... i see selling them off each year for anything between 20 and 50M.

but i guess youre right. i think i was blessed with some great intake what distorts my perception currently- in the end, they end up fabulous training or no training. it is those average PA players that are challenging to train to perfection. should really learn to post some screenshots.

I think you got lucky.

I ran a little experiment using the Southampton academy as it's one of the best around. First off I edited the AM's JPP to 20, I holidayed to just before the newgen date and saved. I then basically reloaded after each intake to see the varying results. I did this about 20 times and only one 5* PA player was produced (and that's 5* PA for Southampton so not necessarily a 185+ PA player but probably more like 170 PA), there were then about 4 or 5 occasions where I got one 4 1/2 *, and one occasions with 3 4*. There were also a few occasions where the highest rated player was only 2 1/2* PA.

Whilst developing and getting a player to full PA is not that difficult, you don't generally have a collection of potential world class players just churn through your academy every year.

I've probably done about 40 seasons worth of games with Southampton and my best newgen I had came in my first ever intake in a gem I started in the demo! I have high hopes for my current Saints save as I've actually managed to pick up one 5 star and one 4 1/2 star newgen in the first two intakes.

[hehehemann]

The biggest helping factor for me and probably the most important attribute for setting out my "Ajax" type academy is the mentality of the backroom staff.

Over the past few seasons I have developed a highly professional backroom. I have several model professionals, resolutes, fairly pros, etc and this is having a major effect on the character of my youth prospects coming through the academy. Having these youngsters with the right mentality from the get go means I can focus on their PPMS and get them out playing games quicker instead of tutoring to fix their mentalities.

[Cleon]

The biggest helping factor for me and probably the most important attribute for setting out my "Ajax" type academy is the mentality of the backroom staff.

Over the past few seasons I have developed a highly professional backroom. I have several model professionals, resolutes, fairly pros, etc and this is having a major effect on the character of my youth prospects coming through the academy. Having these youngsters with the right mentality from the get go means I can focus on their PPMS and get them out playing games quicker instead of tutoring to fix their mentalities.

Indeed

It's often something most people neglect too and don't bother paying attention to who they appoint really. They focus on the attributes rather than personality types. But like you mention, it can save you a lot of time

I added all of this thread to my blog btw as individual articles

[Animosama]

The biggest helping factor for me and probably the most important attribute for setting out my "Ajax" type academy is the mentality of the backroom staff.

Over the past few seasons I have developed a highly professional backroom. I have several model professionals, resolutes, fairly pros, etc and this is having a major effect on the character of my youth prospects coming through the academy. Having these youngsters with the right mentality from the get go means I can focus on their PPMS and get them out playing games quicker instead of tutoring to fix their mentalities.

Might sounds silly of me but does they include scouts and physios. Since they are technically part of the backroom staff and have a chance of being on the favored personnel of the youth intake. So hence we can assume they may have an impact on the personality,nationality or some form of impact on the youth intake or am I over thinking this ?

[Cleon]

Might sounds silly of me but does they include scouts and physios. Since they are technically part of the backroom staff and have a chance of being on the favored personnel of the youth intake. So hence we can assume they may have an impact on the personality,nationality or some form of impact on the youth intake or am I over thinking this ?

No.

I do explain in the posts on the first page which staff impact the youth intakes and their personalities

[tajj 7]

I just bought Luke Shaw second season as Spurs, went to get him tutored and he's a model professional?! How has the AI managed to do that in one season?

[Cleon]

I just bought Luke Shaw second season as Spurs, went to get him tutored and he's a model professional?! How has the AI managed to do that in one season?

What does his personality start off at? Maybe his hidden attributes developed as the season went on and made him Model Pro? I'm guessing he must have high attributes for those needed to begin with though.

[tajj 7]

What does his personality start off at? Maybe his hidden attributes developed as the season went on and made him Model Pro? I'm guessing he must have high attributes for those needed to begin with though.

No idea, I remember him having an ok personality in my older games but still needed tutoring. Must have changed in the update a bit.

Was a nice surprise though!

[Siven]

So i figured this is probably a good place to ask.

My scout has found 2 good 18year old americans with 4star+ potential for me to sign as Liverpool.

Problem is they will fail to get a work permit but i could loan them out to Standard in Belgium to get a work permit for 3 years. Question is will it be worth it in the end as i wont be able to train them myself.

I'm leaning to probably wont be worth it, but i was interested in other opinions.

[D0bi]

So i figured this is probably a good place to ask.

My scout has found 2 good 18year old americans with 4star+ potential for me to sign as Liverpool.

Problem is they will fail to get a work permit but i could loan them out to Standard in Belgium to get a work permit for 3 years. Question is will it be worth it in the end as i wont be able to train them myself.

I'm leaning to probably wont be worth it, but i was interested in other opinions.

What are their personalities? If they have a good personality, then all you could give them at Liverpool is potentially more game-time (although if they're good enough for you they'd likely be good enough for Standard) and tutoring, which is negated by the already-good personality.

If they look good and have the right personality, they should still improve over the three years at Standard to reach their potential.

[Cleon]

What are their personalities? If they have a good personality, then all you could give them at Liverpool is potentially more game-time (although if they're good enough for you they'd likely be good enough for Standard) and tutoring, which is negated by the already-good personality.

If they look good and have the right personality, they should still improve over the three years at Standard to reach their potential.

He can't teach them PPM's, he can't focus on the attributes that need developing the most and he can't shape them into the player he needs them to be. So there is definitely a lot more than just game time he can offer them. I'd never loan someone out unless I'd done developing them and even then, if I'd finished developing them then they should fit into my own team.

Loaning them out will make the player improve more generically because you won't be developing him for a particular role or working on single attributes. It's upto you though and what you prefer to do. My ways don't suit everyone but if you want to make the player specialised and focused for your own squad to fit that, then imo you shouldn't loan him out.

[mikcheck]

Cleon, do you normally repeat a individual focus training? For example, Stamina for 3 months and then maybe next season again

[Cleon]

Cleon, do you normally repeat a individual focus training? For example, Stamina for 3 months and then maybe next season again

If the player needs it yeah but never before a 6-9 month period of training something else though.

[mikcheck]

Thank Cleon.

Btw i would really like to see how you did with Viktor Fischer

Do you think it makes sense to increase the workload training area for the individual focus you want to train? For example increase workload to heavy in offensive training while individual focus is off the ball. Can it work as a booster?

[Cleon]

Lots of threads on this forum saying they can't see improvement in players. If only they read this thread and used these ideas they'd start to see improvements regardless of the team they are and league they are in...

[Cleon]

Thank Cleon.

Btw i would really like to see how you did with Viktor Fischer

Do you think it makes sense to increase the workload training area for the individual focus you want to train? For example increase workload to heavy in offensive training while individual focus is off the ball. Can it work as a booster?

The individual focus should always be heavy whether its individual attribute training or individual role training. Unless I don't understand the question?

[tomtuck01]

Lots of threads on this forum saying they can't see improvement in players. If only they read this thread and used these ideas they'd start to see improvements regardless of the team they are and league they are in...

I would imagine those who are saying such things wouldn't read the thread anyway as they want a quick fix and aren't prepared to put in any time or effort.

[RTHerringbone]

It is a surprise if people aren't seeing improvements, Tom has probably hit the nail on the head.

Prior to FM13 I didn't touch Tactics, Training or Scouting intelligently and was one of those quick fix seekers.

Now I have actually taken time to learn these three areas, the game is more enjoyable, immersive and controllable - I have a better idea of how it works and it's thanks to threads like this and contributions from other people who are embracing the ideas in them.

[DKB]

@Cleon

Playing as Atl Madrid

I have Saúl in the B side, but wonders if it is better to move him to the U19 squad as I then could train him in the direction that I would like to instead of leaving that to the B side manager

The B side is currently playing in the Second Division B1 (not having it active, don't know if it is possible)

My take on it is that that is to low a league to gather real match experience to beat that benefits of training "correctly" and play for the U19 side

If correct will that change much IF the B side gain promotion to the Segunda División? What would you do (now and possible then)?

[mikcheck]

The individual focus should always be heavy whether its individual attribute training or individual role training. Unless I don't understand the question?

Cleon, i've made a confusing question but you´ve answered it correctly. Thanks!

[soccer.joel]

Is it better to have an 18yo 1.5 star CA player 5 * PA in the reserves, on a specialised schedule, playing 10 games a season or loaned out to a Championship club

[tomtuck01]

Is it better to have an 18yo 1.5 star CA player 5 * PA in the reserves, on a specialised schedule, playing 10 games a season or loaned out to a Championship club

Cleon has stated many times that he doesn't loan players out unless he feels he can't aid their development any more. He would probably alos have a bit of a dig at you as you have clearly not read the thread in the first place to ask such a question.

[Animosama]

Isn't Cleon a she ?

[tomtuck01]

Isn't Cleon a she ?

No he's not. But that's beside the point.

[Animosama]

That why as the profile biography Cleon has "Why do people think I'm a dude ffs!!!!!"

[tomtuck01]

That why as the profile biography Cleon has "Why do people think I'm a dude ffs!!!!!"

Because everything that is posted on an online profile is gospel is it? He's a bloke, a big massive bloke who works as a boxing promoter. He also likes bacon but not sausage. Now get over it.

PM me if you're going to keep up this nonsense and stop detracting from the thread.

[soccer.joel]

Cleon has stated many times that he doesn't loan players out unless he feels he can't aid their development any more. He would probably alos have a bit of a dig at you as you have clearly not read the thread in the first place to ask such a question.

I followed it at first but then lost track and I remembered it when I had this question

[fmFutbolManager]

Would you happen to know why Shilla cannot tutor Guy?

[David Beckham_7]

Is Shilla at least a minimum of a squad rotation member?

[Cleon]

Maybe one is learning a PPM? Injured? Just finished tutoring? Maybe Shilla doesn't have a higher squad status?

It could also be because he is planning to retire.

[fmFutbolManager]

Shilla is an important first team player : Guy is a hot prospect. No retirement plans. No current tutoring. No PPMs being learnt.

[Cleon]

Shilla is an important first team player : Guy is a hot prospect. No retirement plans. No current tutoring. No PPMs being learnt.

In the screenshot he is considering retirement. Pretty sure people can't tutor when they are considering their options.

What does it say when you hover over the tutoring option. If its greyed out it should give a reason why it can't be done.

[fmFutbolManager]

He can tutor other people, just not Guy for some reason. I don't know why, it doesn't make sense.

[Cleon]

He can tutor other people, just not Guy for some reason. I don't know why, it doesn't make sense.

Ah. Then it's likely you have too many people in the same position that he can tutor. I think it's limited to 7 (can't remember the exact number cos I'm not on the game). So you'll have to either give people higher squad status so they don't appear in the list or loan them out etc.

[fmFutbolManager]

Ah okay that makes sense. I guess it's random then as other defenders can tutor Guy, just not the one I want. I have set Shilla to tutor someone else now so will reassess in 6 months.

Thanks.

[AnarchyAnt]

Cleon, great thread.

You mentioned you keep 4 left footed players for the left side, 4 righties for the right, etc., I'm curious how that works with your tactics. I believe you said you are playing a 4-1-2-2-1 which I would assume is based on your other thread so you have inside forwards in the AML-AMR slots. Do you not worry about footedness (if that's a word)?

In regards to training, you mention how careful you need to be training new positions. For 4 left footed players for the left-side how much do you value players who can play multiple positions? I'm been slowly building up my training program in the BSS with Weston-Super-Mare, but youth intake is difficult. I don't get many players in that can play more than one position and certainly not both FB and AML.

I'm sure the answer is, if they have the stats and you think they will be better at AML than FB you will train them in that position? Or would you dump your 3rd best left FB in order to keep 2 AML?

Anyway, love the idea behind this thread and am enjoying the challenge of building towards a great youth system from the lower leagues. Starting with half star facilities is going to make this tough, but I'll keep trying until they fire me!

[aderow]

I've always been for giving youngsters a chance to play in the first team regardless of opposition; I always leave a spot on the bench for the best performing youth player with some restrictions. Initially I'd pick whichever youngster was performing the best at that time regardless of where they were in their development so occasionally I'd end up with a 15 yr old lad, who in all honesty has no right to be anywhere near the first team (poor personality, poor attributes etc.), on the bench against a major rival or a cup semi final.

Now I've set some restrictions, well one major restriction. Until they are where I want them to be mentally/personality-wise, I do not allow them to play on the bench with the first team. The way I see it, they'll benefit first team experience the most if they have the right personality.

It's actually been working a treat. 2 players, that were identified at the beginning of the season by my assistant/coaches, have improved quite a bit lately as they've been quite involved with the first team in recent weeks.

There's something that has been bugging me though. I have a lot of youngsters who I don't believe have the right personality yet. Now when I'm picking my squad I take a look at how the youngsters have been doing to see which one I'll put on the bench. Now because of my restriction, in recent weeks I've overlooked a lot of better performing players because of their personalities and have ended up deciding on a player who really has not been playing too well (heck sometimes a lad who's been playing poorly).

A good part of me would much rather reward the players who are doing the best so I'm really considering loosening the restrictions I have on who I deem ready to get time off the bench.

Something I've noticed is that, since really focusing on getting youth players first team football, my current squad is too big. I'll definitely be offloading first team players at the end of the season. Especially considering I make sure the give the youngsters at least 20 minutes whenever I get them on.