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Stuart Warren

Football Manager 2014 - Update 14.2.2 - Feedback Thread

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This is a digression, but my goodness you have got this one wrong. The Universe is extremely non-deterministic. You cannot even know everything about the Universe at one time, and so it is impossible to then know outcomes at all times. Indeed, the Universe is very likely chaotic; this means that even tiny changes in initial conditions can lead to massive changes in outcomes (we all know the butterfly effect). I know this is insanely off topic, but I couldn't let that one slide =}.

Wrong Science is deterministic. Quoted from Hawking himself, Look it up. Bugger it, i'll do it for you "For more than 200 years, we have believed in Scientific determinism, that is, that the laws of science, determine the evolution of the universe. This was formulated by La~plass as, If we know the state of the universe at one time, the laws of science will determine it at all future and past times." Quoted here http://www.hawking.org.uk/into-a-black-hole.html. And probably lots of other places too. This doesn't mean that we're capable of understanding everything at all points in time. Just that with sufficient knowledge we would be. We live in an infinite universe with a finite possible number of outcomes to individual events. The only thing in the universe as far as we are aware that disobey's the laws of science as we understand it are black holes. That's it. Random things don't happen, only what is possible. These possibilities might be hard to predict at times, but never random. Only in the case of Black Holes. Football Manager is not a Black Hole, therefore, obeys the laws of science. Therefore, predictable. With sufficient knowledge.

I recommend anyone with any interest in the Universe, read that article, it's awesome

Stay in school. Or education.

Back on topic

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There is so much wrong with that post, it's hard to know where to begin.

EDIT - But fundamentally, you need to learn the basic difference between 'influence' and 'determine'.

It's the same thing.

In a larger picture. Take chess, something similar, but with less variables. A sufficiently good player, can think and plans many turns in advance. This player would be able to influence the moves available to you, should they want to. Let's say, they've put you in check. The available moves are obvious, but there are only so many. From this point on, the opponents lines of play can both be manipulated, predicted and influenced, until there are no moves available. Thus, the moment this game became determined, was much sooner than the game was actually, physically over.

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Wrong Science is deterministic. Quoted from Hawking himself,

Stay in school. Or education.

Back on topic

Instead of yelling out wrong at people, you should recognize that there are different theories some which support deterministic systems and some that support non-deterministic systems (quantum physics as an example). There are people who disagree with Hawking on many points as well. Just because you have fell in love with one idea does not make it the only possible answer, and does not make people who disagree with that idea wrong.

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No. As has already been answered this evening, it will be ready when it is ready.

A little more patience will be rewarded.

I was hoping my patience in waiting until xmas to buy the game would be rewarded, clearly wasn't.

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What I have noticed is that there are serious discrepancies between what happens on the pitch & ratings.

Just conceded a goal where a defender and my goalie messed up short passes between each other for the time it took an opposing forward to run from the halfway line to my six-yard box and just tap the ball in.

Fine, not arguing. It happens. But NEITHER of the defending players was penalised for f'ing it up. It was pure & simple a mistake from both players, but neither of them got below a 6.9 (I won 4-3 on 88 mins)

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Done a few experiments today and I must say the amount of crosses blocked or intercepted is really ruining the game. Wingers with far better acceleration and pace than the full back are not delivering as instructed. They seem to go past the defender and check thus allowing said defender to get a block in. Done experiments with drill, float, cross early and standard and it seems the same across the board. This obviously causes the problem in a lone tall striker not scoring goals.

This, the fact it happens at all is a huge flaw in the 3D and how we make decisions based on what we can see.

Its why many feel the ME3D is poor....as you should never see a fullback done for pace only to find your winger waits for him to get back into position to make a challenge, it smacks of balancing against pacy wingers as even the least aware/composed winger with pace once they have beaten their man will sling in a cross (however poor), not just wait for the defence to get back.

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What I have noticed is that there are serious discrepancies between what happens on the pitch & ratings.

Just conceded a goal where a defender and my goalie messed up short passes between each other for the time it took an opposing forward to run from the halfway line to my six-yard box and just tap the ball in.

Fine, not arguing. It happens. But NEITHER of the defending players was penalised for f'ing it up. It was pure & simple a mistake from both players, but neither of them got below a 6.9 (I won 4-3 on 88 mins)

I see this a lot too, unlike previous versions FM14 doesnt recognise mistakes that are obvious to those watching. So of course because the ME doesn't recognise them they aren't statistically anomalous and therefore its assumed its not an issue. The widely recognised keeper errors are not seen as issues in the match engine.

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as you should never see a fullback done for pace only to find your winger waits for him to get back into position to make a challenge,.

In over 1200 hours game time, I've still never seen this happen the way it gets reported here.

Sure, I've seen defenders block crosses, but whenever my winger gets into space after beating the fullback he always either crosses it or cuts it back to an onrushing centre mid. (or mis-controls/overruns it out for a goal kick)The only time I've ever seen a blocked cross when the winger has been clear is when there is no crossing option and he has to wait a second for a team mate to get into a viable position thus giving the full back(s) time to get back. But even then, that's pretty rare.

I'd like to see an uploaded video of such an instance, as it maybe does happen and I'm just oblivious to it.

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I don't get it either Dave. We've posted video's of our wingers fizzing down the line and pinging good balls in with the full-backs trailing in their wake. I get the hump if the full-back gets anywhere near one of my speed merchants when they are in full flight. "Taxi for Maicon" :lol:.

It obviously is happening or they wouldn't keep saying it, but it just doesn't make sense.

What instructions do the wingers have as to who to cross to or where?

What role does your striker/s play?

Are they playing as W(a) W(s) DW(s) DW(s) or something else?

I just don't know what to suggest.

Would love to see a video of it.

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I don't have this problem to the extent some seem to have, but I've definitiely noticed a tendacy for widemen to sometimes appear to have beaten their man, only to hesitate for a second or so before crossing and allow the defender to get back and block it. I feel it's more of a graphical representation problem than a ME one, as my overall crossing seems to achieve realistic levels of success (i.e. not a huge amount, but some), but when the crosses are blocked, I keep seeing that hesitation after beating the defender, and it's irritating, as it makes it look like your player is making a mistake by waiting before crossing. If the defender just kept up with my winger and blocked the cross, it wouldn't bother me nearly as much.

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Logically, ratings will be one of the last things to be tuned.

The inputs into how ratings calculate are ME based, so until that is finalised, the ratings won't be.

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Why is the Hold Position PI active for the Trequartista :confused: ???

this is even better :lol: the Trequartista has both PIs active to hold position and roam from prosition

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No it doesn't? It has them both unselectable as roam from position is on by default.

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No it doesn't? It has them both unselectable as roam from position is on by default.

He's right Ackter.

Mine is the same.

[Edit]

Treq(a)

Hold position. Already active for this role and duty.

Roam from position. Already active for this role and duty.

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He holds position (the instruction is on by default)

FC_Porto_T_cticas_Jogador_4.png

but wait, he can also roam at the same time, the man is prodigy

FC_Porto_T_cticas_Jogador_5.png

I got suspicious because I wasn't seeing my player to drop deep (and he has also a ppm to do it). It's because things like this that I also become suspicious when someone tell us "it's your tactics"... yes, it can be, a lot of times it is indeed, but this one (and a lot more) it's bad.

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pfft. It's your tactics and you know it.

Either that or punishment for being bi-lingual.

[That is a joke just in case anyone is unsure]

The joke is well and truly on me. I have experimented a bit with a Treq and never noticed. It obviously didn't work, but I never realised why.

Good spot Mr bi-lingiual. :thup:

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Do you mind posting that over in the bugs forum, please? That's pretty weird.

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It's just a UI issue - the Trequartista is not actually instructed to Hold Position.

The labeling of "Active For Role" and "Unavailable for Role" was added after the initial release after complaints that too much was hidden.

This is just one that has been incorrectly labeled - you can see that if you watch how a Treq moves about

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It's just a UI issue - the Trequartista is not actually instructed to Hold Position.

The labeling of "Active For Role" and "Unavailable for Role" was added after the initial release after complaints that too much was hidden.

This is just one that has been incorrectly labeled - you can see that if you watch how a Treq moves about

I thought of that also, maybe is a labeling issue and not that the role has the two instructions active but since I don't see the player dropping deeper (not even with the ppm) maybe it's more than a simple labeling.

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Could anyone please tell me where to find the updated transfers patch? I have searched and searched, with no luck! I remember the days of old.....when steam was a gas that came out the bloody kettle!!

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Could anyone please tell me where to find the updated transfers patch? I have searched and searched, with no luck! I remember the days of old.....when steam was a gas that came out the bloody kettle!!

It will be out when the final update is - which has an unconfirmed release date.

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Really? I would have thought they would have done it by now... Thanks for clearing that up for me....i was beginning to get rather flustered..now i just feel silly! :p

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I don't get it either Dave. We've posted video's of our wingers fizzing down the line and pinging good balls in with the full-backs trailing in their wake. I get the hump if the full-back gets anywhere near one of my speed merchants when they are in full flight. "Taxi for Maicon" :lol:.

It obviously is happening or they wouldn't keep saying it, but it just doesn't make sense.

What instructions do the wingers have as to who to cross to or where?

What role does your striker/s play?

Are they playing as W(a) W(s) DW(s) DW(s) or something else?

I just don't know what to suggest.

Would love to see a video of it.

I would love to know what settings you have your wingers on gents because the blocked crosses/wingers hesitating happens regularly to me. Jarvis and Downing may not be the greatest but their pace and acceleration are good but so many crosses get blocked and that is why I see so many corners. A lot of people have been moaning about the corners and to be fair the two logical reasons for that are goalkeeper saves and blocked crosses by interceptions or tackles by full backs going for corners. The two must go side by side.

For what it's worth I generally play my wingers on pre set instructions but I have tried early crossing, wider, all manner of things but it's the same routine. I have only two theories as to why a winger may hesitate. 1. I play a DLP quite a lot and it's possible that their decision making makes them consider a ball to the DLP before making a cross. However I have seen the same issues playing other roles in the CM strata. 2. I generally play one up top, a DLF generally as per advice on another thread. It could I guess be possible that by playing a DLF he isn't in the box to be a decent aim so wingers check until he arrives. However that doesn't seem to be the case watching matches and I usually play a SS or AM so that usually leaves two in there at the very least anyway.

I hate the word gamebreaker but constant blocked crosses really do limit your options tactical wise.

As I say if your wingers are bombing down the touchline and delivering decent crosses I would love to know what settings you use because my heat map shows a lot of blue dots (blocked) and very little green (completed)!!!

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As I say if your wingers are bombing down the touchline and delivering decent crosses I would love to know what settings you use because my heat map shows a lot of blue dots (blocked) and very little green (completed)!!!

Ah ha!

Now here Huston, we might have a problem. Let me explain..... lol

I recently started watching matches in full detail to try and iron out some tactical.... deficiencies shall we call them. The problem I found was that although I could now see where I was going wrong, (it's amazing what watching a match in full detail does for you), I also hated hated hated it because it made my team look pants. I mean really pants. I mean..... there was me thinking we are the bees knees, (watching key highlights remember), only to find out that it wasn't always quite like that.

Anyway, so my point is that it was like watching a whole different game with a different ME. It was just completely alien to anything I had been used to seeing.

So I guess what I am saying is that to the likes of me and Dave, (actually I won't speak for Dave because I don't know how he watches his matches), we may appear far better than we actually are simply because we are only seeing the good bits that result in at the very least, "highlights".

Anyway, I am in a horrible patch at the moment with injuries and suspensions but I will go back a couple of weeks to where I think I was playing this amazing football and the post up some screenshots of the analysis crosses/dribbles page for my wingers and see what it shows.

Left winger. (Ignoring corners).

These matches are going in reverse order from now by the way so Match 1 was the last match played.

Match 1.

6 crosses attempted.

2 blocked.

Match 2.

Absolutely loads attempted.

0 blocked.

By the way. Just so there is no confusion, I am not claiming these are all good crosses or led to chances or anythning like that, (because they aren't and they didn't). I'm just saying they weren't blocked. Hope that's ok.

Match 3.

9 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 4. (Must have come on as sub)

Only 4 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 5. (Bench again).

4 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 6.

3 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 7. (This was against Sampdoria and they had a decent right back. In fact I think they doubled up on him).

11 crosses.

4 blocked

Match 8.

9 crosses attempted.

4 blocked.

That's me back to the end of pre-season now. He was injured and suspended so has missed games.

[Edit2]

Just for the record I play a 41DM131 formation with an AF(a) up front, and AP(s) in the middle, a W(a) on the left and an IF(s) on the right. It's not a great tactic from a tacticians point of view but I'm trying to build the team around a small number of decent Sammarinese players, the best of whom plays as the AP(s)

So maybe it's the options that we've got that are causing the AI problems?

[Edit3]

Ooh interesting.

It's a different story from the opposite side. Very much what you are describing, (although I'm actually asking the IF to cut in himself rather than cross so that might be expected a bit). Not to this level though. Off the top of my head I would estimate that approx 50% of attempted crosses from the players playing either IF(s) or W(s) on the right are being blocked.

Obviously they are much fewer in number though. They are from different positions too. I think this side is a bit wayward because of the IF role and the instructions.

Any good?

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Ah ha!

Now here Huston, we might have a problem. Let me explain..... lol

I recently started watching matches in full detail to try and iron out some tactical.... deficiencies shall we call them. The problem I found was that although I could now see where I was going wrong, (it's amazing what watching a match in full detail does for you), I also hated hated hated it because it made my team look pants. I mean really pants. I mean..... there was me thinking we are the bees knees, (watching key highlights remember), only to find out that it wasn't always quite like that.

Anyway, so my point is that it was like watching a whole different game with a different ME. It was just completely alien to anything I had been used to seeing.

So I guess what I am saying is that to the likes of me and Dave, (actually I won't speak for Dave because I don't know how he watches his matches), we may appear far better than we actually are simply because we are only seeing the good bits that result in at the very least, "highlights".

Anyway, I am in a horrible patch at the moment with injuries and suspensions but I will go back a couple of weeks to where I think I was playing this amazing football and the post up some screenshots of the analysis crosses/dribbles page for my wingers and see what it shows.

Left winger. (Ignoring corners).

These matches are going in reverse order from now by the way so Match 1 was the last match played.

Match 1.

6 crosses attempted.

2 blocked.

Match 2.

Absolutely loads attempted.

0 blocked.

By the way. Just so there is no confusion, I am not claiming these are all good crosses or led to chances or anythning like that, (because they aren't and they didn't). I'm just saying they weren't blocked. Hope that's ok.

Match 3.

9 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 4. (Must have come on as sub)

Only 4 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 5. (Bench again).

4 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 6.

3 crosses attempted.

1 blocked.

Match 7. (This was against Sampdoria and they had a decent right back. In fact I think they doubled up on him).

11 crosses.

4 blocked

Match 8.

9 crosses attempted.

4 blocked.

That's me back to the end of pre-season now. He was injured and suspended so has missed games.

Well I have checked my crossing stats at the end of December.

Team - Crosses succeeded 83 out of 492

Best player Rat 25 completed from 109

Worst player Jarvis 1 out of 23

Downing 19 out of 101

Last two Home games :

28 crosses

9 blocked

12 intercepted

5 completed

rest out of play

40 crosses

12 blocked

17 intercepted

8 completed

rest out of play

Awful rates really and as I say an awful lot of blue dots on the heat maps. The other thing I notice is even if you set cross from deep on a full back the deepest you will get a cross from is the edge of the penalty area.

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Well I have checked my crossing stats.

Team - Crosses succeeded 83 out of 492

Best player Rat 25 completed from 109

Worst player Jarvis 1 out of 23

Downing 19 out of 101

Awful rates really and as I say an awful lot of blue dots on the heat maps. The other thing I notice is even if you set cross from deep on a full back the deepest you will get a cross from is the edge of the penalty area.

What exactly do you is think the success rate % for crosses?

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Sussex Hammer. Please don't confuse crosses not being blocked with successful crosses. These are NOT successful. They just didn't get blocked by the full-back, (or anyone else).

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Sussex Hammer. Please don't confuse crosses not being blocked with successful crosses. These are NOT successful. They just didn't get blocked by the full-back, (or anyone else).

Oh indeed, I was classing successful as actually getting them in the box which is an achievement in itself!!!!

This is a screenshot from one of the games above. A rare game when Andy Carroll actually headed 5 in the area but only one was a scoring chance. A hell of a lot of blocked and intercepted crosses though. I'm not complaining that Carroll doesn't score 30 headers a season but his mere presence and heading ability in the box "should" create chances for others.

WestHamvNewcastle_AnalysisPerformance.png

I couldn't find any real information regarding crossing this season but the below is a link to an interesting article from last season. Makes interesting reading..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2303835/Premier-League-crossers--best-worst-season.html

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Really? I would have thought they would have done it by now... Thanks for clearing that up for me....i was beginning to get rather flustered..now i just feel silly! :p

Generally in the early weeks of March.

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I don't really know what to say Hammer.

Is it possible that because you have AC in there you are a little one-dimensional so they are able to double-up out wide? I honestly don't know.

I play very wide, but I'm not attempting anywhere near the crosses you are, (not even close to half). If Downing is making 22 crosses on his own, maybe they sort of know what he is going to do so can try and do something to prevent it?

The other thins of course is that it's all him and nobody else. The match I am looking at in my save is 7 from one side and 8 from the other side, (we had 2 W's that day nor 1W and a IF.

I can see you have AC, Cole, Lambert and Crouch. So you have 4 targets, (although only 2 on the pitch at a time), but only 1 avenue of delivery.

I don't really know what else to say. You obviously want to play with 2 up. Just not sure it's that easy when they can seemingly cut off thr supply, (even though I'm sure you are doing ok).

[Edit]

If you are interested, set up a thread in T&TGF and I will uploads pics of tactics and players and even goals if I ever get us out of this slump and you can maybe see what it is that is allowing me to get the ball past the 1st defender that Downing isn't doing.

I'm sure Downing is better than my bloke Becker (BEL).

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Prefer one up but it's proving difficult with a TM sort of striker. Interestingly I just tried another experiment against Barnet. Drew 1-1 would you believe!!! However I walloped Carroll and Crouch up top as a TM S and TM A,. All instructions were to basically bombard the area with crosses. Had full backs on cross from deep although none actually came in from deep!! Cross often, pump ball in box, all that sort of thing. Did see a higher rate of crosses and headers but not conversions. This is a screenshot of shots (which actually include headers which I didn't realise) and most indeed are headers from Carroll, Crouch and the two centre backs. These all missed the net....

BarnetvWestHam_AnalysisPerformance.png

Now Carroll has heading 18, Crouch 14, Reid 15 and Tomkins 16. Yet Finishing has Carroll, 14, Crouch, 14, Reid 6 and Tomkins 4. So I guess it doesn't really matter how good in the air you are if your finishing stats aren't high you will just totally miss the net!!!

Doing ok though. The whole season is a bit of an experiment. I am playing a different formation/setup every single game and I am 5th after 19 games!!!!!

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Well I will be honest with you on a few points.

1. I'm a Barnet fan, (coyb's) lol

2. I usually play with a TM tactic and it just wasn't working for me. The TM kept inhabiting the space that the AP was in and the AP guy is my best Smmarinese player so the TM had to go. What I did was swap the role to AF(a), (but keep the bug brute of a player), and it worked out quite well. He now stretches the defence the other way and basically leaves a hole for my AP to move into. As I often only play 1 winger and 1 IF, it sort of makes sense too. I'm playing more proper football with this San Marino club side than I ever have done before.

You know just because the likes of AC and Crouch are good TM does not mean that you actually have to play them as such.

I bet you have Downing aiming for the TM too. If it was me I would be tempted to just forget about TM as a "thing" and instead let Downing, (or whoever), deliver to wherever you want, (or indeed wherever he wants), That way he might worry more about beating the man than can he hit AC or Crouch.

I play Ayala (ARG) in this AF(a)/(s) role almost like he is a TM sometimes, but he can play a bit too. They don't lose all that TM ability just because you give them another role. (So you get the best of both Worlds). Anyway, just an idea.

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game don't work, stupid ngog scores ffs!

You've made 4 posts, one here, and the other three in three other sections of the forum, all talking about your cracked fm. I'm glad you're not enjoying the game :D

Btw, love your username :)

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Well I will be honest with you on a few points.

1. I'm a Barnet fan, (coyb's) lol

2. I usually play with a TM tactic and it just wasn't working for me. The TM kept inhabiting the space that the AP was in and the AP guy is my best Smmarinese player so the TM had to go. What I did was swap the role to AF(a), (but keep the bug brute of a player), and it worked out quite well. He now stretches the defence the other way and basically leaves a hole for my AP to move into. As I often only play 1 winger and 1 IF, it sort of makes sense too. I'm playing more proper football with this San Marino club side than I ever have done before.

You know just because the likes of AC and Crouch are good TM does not mean that you actually have to play them as such.

I bet you have Downing aiming for the TM too. If it was me I would be tempted to just forget about TM as a "thing" and instead let Downing, (or whoever), deliver to wherever you want, (or indeed wherever he wants), That way he might worry more about beating the man than can he hit AC or Crouch.

I play Ayala (ARG) in this AF(a)/(s) role almost like he is a TM sometimes, but he can play a bit too. They don't lose all that TM ability just because you give them another role. (So you get the best of both Worlds). Anyway, just an idea.

Used to play classic tactics so first time with the TC. Was advised to play Nolan and Carroll as a DLF (more mobile TM apparently) and a SS. Saw thinking behind it. Nolan runs onto Carroll's flicks but it doesn't really work. Might well try the AF idea and see if that works.

One big issue I see is that you can aim a cross to near post, far post, centre "but" you can't tell the receivers to run to a/b/c so it's a bit hit and miss.

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Hammer - I'm assuming from your stats on crosses that Downing is taking all your corners (which I am 99% sure count as crosses in the analysis). So realistically you need to try and ignore them when working stuff out. You also (from the pics) have close to 20% completion rate - which I would have said is pretty good for crosses. Have you tried one of the wide players as an IF by the way? As they will cross sometimes, but will cut in and try and score themselves as well - giving you more options - and more importantly giving the opposition something else to think about. As someone else said - they (At present) can simply double up on the winger (Which WILL mean that a lot of crosses are blocked - which you would expect in a 2v1 situation) and double mark Carroll - there are no other threats to their goal, so it's easy to defend against.

If you try an IF(A) plus W(S), then the IF will attack the back post, leaving Carroll to attack from post from the cross by the winger. THen there will be 2 players definitely in the box giving them more problems than you are currently creating.

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It's just a UI issue - the Trequartista is not actually instructed to Hold Position.

The labeling of "Active For Role" and "Unavailable for Role" was added after the initial release after complaints that too much was hidden.

This is just one that has been incorrectly labeled - you can see that if you watch how a Treq moves about

what about "move into channels" for certain forward role ? the AF was moving into channels by default,now he doesn't;or is he ?

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What's the key to getting your lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 getting chances? I've tried various roles, DLF, F9, Treq and AF.

Midfield is set up as follow and both fullback are CWB's. I get a lot of goals from the wingers but the striker doesn't get many chances

----CM(d)--AP(s)-----

W(s)--AM(s)--IF(a)

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what about "move into channels" for certain forward role ? the AF was moving into channels by default,now he doesn't;or is he ?

If you hover over the "Move Into Channels" Player Instruction for any Role where it is greyed out, it will say whether that instruction is locked in or out of the Role.

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Doing ok though. The whole season is a bit of an experiment. I am playing a different formation/setup every single game and I am 5th after 19 games!!!!!

Bugger about that, I'd like to have seen a statistics of assists/goals come the end of the season with your TM setup. I once had a team all built about similar tactics myself (was FM 2012) though and neatly saw that reflected come the end of the season in both assists (crosses) as well as goals (headers, areas). Was a third tier side too though, and the target men types I had on that level didn't have much competition physically, unlikely you will have such gaps in the PL. I remember one AI side had quite a deadly setpiece taker-strong centre back combination, which would grant team a number goals per season each (as said, the league didn't have many headers/physical players, which let that combo excell as well as mine). Wanted to pick them up, but my budget didn't allow. :D

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If you hover over the "Move Into Channels" Player Instruction for any Role where it is greyed out, it will say whether that instruction is locked in or out of the Role.

In this particular case, I can select "MiC" manually.Does that mean if I don't select it, the AF will run centrally against defenders and not search the channels ? I'm asking this because on past FM's "MiC" was selected by default on most striker roles except TM,DF or DLF in 2 striker formation.It was also default on most midfielders playing in a narrow formation.

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Its so funny how any tactic I try works until all fluid on match preparation then everything goes down.

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