Little Help with a 4-4-1-1

[richardh2136]

Hi Chaps,

I was just wondering if someone would mind taking a quick peruse over my current set up and tell me what i've got wrong here with my 4-4-1-1.

Im currently in my 2nd season with Bayer Leverkusen and we're struggling a bit, We're OK defensively, most goals we concede tend to be on the break or to occasional concentration lapses (these are generally at leftback, where ive got a promising youngster, so thats probably just down to the players individual errors) but i wouldnt say we've ever 'played well'. It all looks a bit laboured. Theres very rarely been a game where we look in control for longer than about 10 minutes.

This is more or less the same tactic that got me to 3rd place in the first season, however i'll readily admit there were a lot of cagey 1 goal wins where we often scored from corners (even had a DC get a hat trick in one league game). We also had the luxury of Kießling banging in 20 goals and getting the players' player of the year award. This season his goals have dried up completely, we're still looking a bit rubbish (We just got thoroughly outplayed by Mainz who had a guy sent off after 2 minutes and managed to scrape a 1-1 draw with a corner goal in injury time) and ive got a month to turn it around to save my job.

I'd originally wanted to set up with a 4-2-3-1 playing possession football with a mixed passing game, however we were a bit leaky in defence and couldnt actually keep the ball that well which i assumed was down to the lack of guys in my first 11 who were actually decent at passing. So i switched it to a 4-4-1-1 playing a bit more direct.

Heres what i settled on and am still playing:

The goalkeeper is set to pass it short to the defenders, the fullbacks are set to close down more and the DL run wide with ball. The CMs are both set to shoot less, the LM set to cut inside.

The AMC and STC have been changed about slightly as and when i've felt the need, the AMC rotates between a trequartista, an AM(A) and an sometimes an AM(S), whereas the STC flits between being a TM(A) and TM(S)

If anyone can point out any glaring holes for me i'd be very appreciative.

[j4y_z]

Hey, I'm playing a very successful 4-4-1-1 with Bayern, has won me all 6 titles in 1st season.

Few suggestions:

- You got a lone striker, so putting him on Support Duty should allow him to better link up with his team mates.

- Playing narrower and direct passing is, imho, a bit counter productive, as you don't have that much space between your players, especially in a 4-4-1-1, where the d-line and midfield line are pretty close by default

- you only have 2 specialist roles (Target Man and Treqartista), so you might go Fluid instead of Rigid.

- I'd activate the "Roam from position" instruction on one of your wide players to make you offensive moves more unpredictable. Also, I'd set the wide players to cut inside, if possible, and also, for me, "get further forward" on the wide players helped a lot

- for the Fullbacks: I tell them to run wide with ball and dribble less

Hope that helps.

EDIT:

Personally, I think the AMC is vital in this formation. I kind of need a central figure to act as a pivot, a guy who can dictate the game. So for me, an Advanced Playmaker (Support or Attack, depending on his attributes) or Enganche works best in this position, because he doesn't roam like the Treqartista.

[richardh2136]

Hey, I'm playing a very successful 4-4-1-1 with Bayern, has won me all 6 titles in 1st season.

Few suggestions:

- You got a lone striker, so putting him on Support Duty should allow him to better link up with his team mates.

- Playing narrower and direct passing is, imho, a bit counter productive, as you don't have that much space between your players, especially in a 4-4-1-1, where the d-line and midfield line are pretty close by default

- you only have 2 specialist roles (Target Man and Treqartista), so you might go Fluid instead of Rigid.

- I'd activate the "Roam from position" instruction on one of your wide players to make you offensive moves more unpredictable. Also, I'd set the wide players to cut inside, if possible, and also, for me, "get further forward" on the wide players helped a lot

- for the Fullbacks: I tell them to run wide with ball and dribble less

Hope that helps.

EDIT:

Personally, I think the AMC is vital in this formation. I kind of need a central figure to act as a pivot, a guy who can dictate the game. So for me, an Advanced Playmaker (Support or Attack, depending on his attributes) or Enganche works best in this position, because he doesn't roam like the Treqartista.

Thanks for the tips. i'll try a few of those out. The 'play narrow' one makes most sense and i dont know why i didnt really look at that. I didnt necasarily want to push up, but wanted to restrict space and make my team tougher to play through, so went for narrow.

Do you think 'play narrower' could still work if i tell the wide men to stay wider?

The thing about the striker being on attack is definitely worth taking on board, but it kind of links in with the point about the advanced playmaker over treq.

The point about the advanced playmaker is an interesting one too, i hadnt considered changing his role as i envisioned one of 2 scenarios happening, ive either got a support target man roaming up front looking for space, picking up the ball then looking to play it to advancing midfielders (either the wide men or the AM-A) or ive got the trequartista roaming looking for space to receive the ball then looking to put through the TM-A or the wide men. I've tended to plump for the latter due to pjanic being more able to pass and create than put away a chance. I guess what may be a better way of achieving what i want would be to set Pjanic as an AP(S) with roam from position?

[MeesterCat]

I don't know Kiessling's or Pjanic's attributes, but I would be tempted to play an AF / AM-A combination. With the right players it works as the AF doesn't get too isolated and roams enough to make space for the AM.

[pees_10]

Hi, I can see some potential problems in the setup.

First of all it seems like you may lack some width. Playing with TM (A) you should be looking to feed him from the wide areas as well. I'd suggest removing the 'play narrower' shout and reconsider your wide players' roles. Is your FBl (A) getting high enough to deliver a cross into the box? The same about the WMr (A) - isn't he playing too narrow to feed your TM? Look how many cross attempts they have, in case these number are low you may consider changing the FB to WB (A) and WM to W(A).

Second thing is that you seem to lack a player that could create from deep, since CM (d) is limited when it comes to creation. Maybe a DLP (d) could be a better option here. He should offer you more in terms of launching the counter with a pintpoint passing from deep.

Third: Is you striker involved enough? If not you may want to change his role to DLF (A) - he should still be your main goalscoring threat, being in the box to finish the offensive moves, but will also contribute more in the build up play.

[j4y_z]

Well, as an example, if I play Kroos in the AMC spot, I set him to AP support, as he has excellent skills for that, but if I play Thiago or Götze there, I play them as AP attack, because if their excellent dribbling skills. If I play Müller, I tend to use him as an Attacking Midfielder on attack or Shadow Striker, as he ist more of a goalscoring threat than a creator. This works perfectly with a False 9 upfront, namely Volland, who I bought after Season 1 or Götze. If i play Kroos/Thiago/Götze as AMC, I either use Volland as Treqartista, or Mandzukic as Defensive Forward on support duty.

[SpartyOn]

What doesn't add up to me is having the right-footed Schurrle on the left, and the left-footed Sam on the right, but then using "exploit the flanks" which will make them focus on getting out wide and crossing with their weak feet.

You could push them up to the AM strata and make them inside forwards, or you could use instructions like "cut inside with ball" and "get further forward" to make them play like IFs from where they are now, or you could keep exploiting the flanks and have them swap sides.

[richardh2136]

What doesn't add up to me is having the right-footed Schurrle on the left, and the left-footed Sam on the right, but then using "exploit the flanks" which will make them focus on getting out wide and crossing with their weak feet.

You could push them up to the AM strata and make them inside forwards, or you could use instructions like "cut inside with ball" and "get further forward" to make them play like IFs from where they are now, or you could keep exploiting the flanks and have them swap sides.

Also a fair point, going by the description of what 'exploit the flanks' says it does, i hadnt realised it would be specifically asking them to behave that way. Id always assumed it was a more general attack more down the flanks rather than attack through the centre.

[richardh2136]

Right, well. Update 1.

Made a few of the changes suggested.

Switched to fluid. Turned off 'exploit the flanks' and 'play narrower', got Sam cutting inside and getting further forward as a WM, schurrle is playing as a w(s) with no specific instructions, the AMC is AP(S) with roam from position and a TM(A) up front. Changed the CM(D) to a DLP(D).

First 2 games were against stronger opposition and weaker opposition and it worked a treat. had some good passages of passing play and some nice looking speedy breaks. Won both games quite comfortably.

Had 3 games following that and its all gone completely to pot and i just cant seem to see why, played 3 quite weak league teams home and away and lost each time, its not even as if theyre shelling to frustrate and hit us on the break. Theyve been knocking the ball around like barca and we're looking like a pub team, unable to pass the ball, unable to stick away any chances that come our way. Frustating to say the least.

[pees_10]

Right, well. Update 1.

Made a few of the changes suggested.

Turned off 'exploit the flanks' and 'play narrower', got Sam cutting inside and getting further forward as a WM, schurrle is playing as a w(s) with no specific instructions, the AMC is AP(S) with roam from position and a TM(A) up front. Changed the CM(D) to a DLP(D).

First 2 games were against stronger opposition and weaker opposition and it worked a treat. had some good passages of passing play and some nice looking speedy breaks. Won both games quite comfortably.

Had 3 games following that and its all gone completely to pot and i just cant seem to see why, played 3 quite weak league teams home and away and lost each time, its not even as if theyre shelling to frustrate and hit us on the break. Theyve been knocking the ball around like barca and we're looking like a pub team, unable to pass the ball, unable to stick away any chances that come our way. Frustating to say the least.

All right, seems like you managed to make some progress. I am curious if the striker is involved in the game enough - the reason is that I play a similar shape at the moment and find DLF (A) AP(A) working very well, combining with each other, dragging the opposition centre backs all over the place creating a lot of issues for their defense.

Concerning playing against weaker sides - have you considered playing more aggressively in these matches? Higher dline (or control/attacking mentality) + hassle shout? The reason they are 'knocking the ball around like barca and we're looking like a pub team' may be the fact that since you play on counter mentality you are allowing them space and time on the ball. Leverkusen is a good side you shoud be able to control the games against most of the league using this strategy.

[richardh2136]

I guess in terms of dropping in to assist with the build up, youre right, he isnt, hes getting into the box to get on the end of things (and making a bit of a hash of it at the moment)

I would have thought that having a dlf and an ap(a) they'd be stepping on each others toes though?

The other problem is the players themselves, my AM is a good passer and decent creatively but is pretty poor at sticking chances away, the striker is quick and strong in the air, average at finishing but below par at passing, i dont see how giving them roles to try and take advantage of strengths they dont have would succeed to be honest.

[pees_10]

I guess in terms of dropping in to assist with the build up, youre right, he isnt, hes getting into the box to get on the end of things (and making a bit of a hash of it at the moment)

I would have thought that having a dlf and an ap(a) they'd be stepping on each others toes though?

The other problem is the players themselves, my AM is a good passer and decent creatively but is pretty poor at sticking chances away, the striker is quick and strong in the air, average at finishing but below par at passing, i dont see how giving them roles to try and take advantage of strengths they dont have would succeed to be honest.

Yes, they will operate in the same area, but they should be constantly on the move. As long as they both have good off the ball attributes they should create gaps in the opposition defense for each other (and in your case maybe BBM and WM-a) to exploit. It works great for me although my AP and DLF seem to be similar attribute-wise to yours. AP scores quite a lot although he is only average in both finishing and composure. That is because most of the chances he has are quality ones, when he moves into the space left out by a CD who pushed up to close down the striker. The striker's passing proved not to be such a big problem as well, since many times the pass he needs to do is an easy one.

Think of what kind of goals you want your team to score. For me it seems like you want the striker (obviously) to be the main goalscoring force by winning headers in the box and getting to the through balls (since he's a quick one) delivered by AP. For him to win the headers you need good delivery from the wide areas - either from a winger or overlapping wing back + a role that will see your striker move into the box to finish the offensive move (most of striker's roles do it).

Now if he is to do something more than just winning the headers you should maybe consider less static role for him. Otherwise you will rarely see him losing his marker to receive a through ball. To increase the chances of playing a good through ball and reaching it by the striker, you also need the space in the final third. This can be achieved by:

a) stretching the opposition defense to make the space between their defenders bigger (think wide players pushing forward)

b) mobile striker's role that will make him try to exploit this space (and still be in the box to get on the end of the crosses)

c) runners from midfield who can exploit the gap left by the defender following your striker who is actively looking for space

d) someone to play the through ball (seems obvious, but think of a situation when you have just one player to do that and he's marked out of the game).

In the system I use the above is achieved by:

a) left WB (A) and right W (A)

b) DLF (A)

c) AP(A), WM(S), W(A)

d) AP(A), DLP(D), left WM (S), occasionally CM (D)

This gives me a few creative outlets (all listed in a, c, d, and even b) and a few players that can finish the offensive move (DLF, AP, right W, left WM, occasionally CM who is a threat from distance). A lot for the opposition to worry about.

If you do not want you player in the AMC spot to be a goalscoring outlet, due to his poor stats in this department I think you need to consider using one more player who will be moving into the opposition's box - IF on attack duty perhaps. That will require to change the shape though and would open one of your wings more (as IF will probably not track back very much) and will give you one more thing to sort out - possible lack of width on that wing. To be honest I think that to make 4-4-1-1 (or 4-2-3-1 as many times it plays out very similar) work you need to utilize the AMC slot as potential goalscorer. Otherwise you limit your offensive options and put most of the finishing job onto a striker. This makes your side pretty one dimensional and easy to cope with. This might be the reason for inconsistent results you had - in the games you lost your TM(A) was probably well marked, which made your attack toothless.

Hope that helps!

[j4y_z]

Just an example video of how my team is creating goals through the middle. This is Müller used as Shadow Striker coupled with Volland playing as False 9. What's remarkable here is that Volland is just an average passer with average creativity. The pass he needs to play here is just dead simple though, but amazingly effective.

[video=youtube;TN087tJCAmA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN087tJCAmA&hd=1

I'm pretty sure you could use Stefan Kießling and Heung Min Son to the same effect.

[jaybert]

Hi all. I am trying to play with similar tactic as Dortmund, its rigid+attacking though. A tactic that acts like a real 4-2-3-1. I have finished just 1st season yet but it seems that cooperation between Striker (Suarez) and AMC (Mkhitaryan) really works. Suarez plays upfront either as CF(a) or AF with Miki as AP(a). Since Miki has great stats for finishing AMC he didnt have any problems to make 20+ goals from AMC role per season, note Suarez scored almost 40. I dont think you can reach this in 4-2-3-1 with inside forwards who occupy similar space like AMC and I have never made Mkhitaryan work in this formation.

edit: j4y_z it is really nice simple but deadly action. Do you play attacking strategy too? I have two players for F9+SS but problem is I am still playing FM2013 where are not these types, is it possible to make it work like DLF(s) or T with AM(a) or IF(a)?