Need advice with my Newcastle 4-1-2-2-1 counter

[vkatinen]

Hello all

I've just finished my first season with Newcastle and it's been an odd ride so far, although generally successful, as I've finished 7th in the EPL.

This is my tactic: (I also used Exploit the flanks during the first 2/3s of the season)

Individual instructions:

Santon - cut inside with ball (didn't make much of an impact)

Ben Arfa - Sit narrower, dribble more (lost the dribble more later on)

The idea:

The general idea was to remain solid and dynamic in the middle with Cabaye and Sissoko, with the half-back (Zuculini or Caceres) acting as cover. Hatem Ben Arfa should cut inside and play through passes to Cisse and overlapping Debuchy on the right, and Gaitan was supposed to beat his man down the left or lay it on inside for the onrushing Santon. Cisse wasn't supposed to act as much other than as a goalscorer.

How it looks in practice:

First off, my general stats were: 38 games played, won 15, drawn 14, lost 9, with 43-36 goal difference. The losses came to Chelsea and United (4), City, WBA, Liverpool, Southampton, so pretty much all top teams, except for an embarrassing 3-0 loss to Sunderland which I avenged with a 5-1 win in our next meeting. It was also the only time I scored more than 2 goals. Newcastle games were generally boring affairs where I gave up posession to other teams and they often didn't do much with it, so I suppose that the defensive part of my tactic is working OK. Most goals that I conceded came from the flanks and corners.

My striker has often looked quite isolated and, well, not that deadly. Might have been the Poacher role, but others haven't really been much more effective. I've been kinda successful using Ameobi and later Rescaldani with a TM(s) role. All in all, Cisse scored 14 in 39, Ameobi scored some in the FA against weak teams, and Rescaldani (who was acquired in January) scored 2 important ones - for a draw away at Tottenham and the winning goal against Fulham away in the last game of the season to keep us 7th.

The right side of the attack was working as intended, with Ben Arfa moving over central to create danger and space for Debuchy. It went quite well until they both got injured around February, and when Ben Arfa came back he wasn't all that dangerous. Ended the season with 6 goals and 6 assists in 33.

Gaitan and Santon on the other side weren't very impressive, and although Gaitan was my top assist man with 7 and 3 goals, I feel he should've been a lot more effective.

The middle 3 looked pretty much alright to me, maybe they should've been more involved up front to support Cisse.

The defence was pretty solid and let in less than a goal per game, most of them coming from crosses, or that's how it felt at least.

My main worry is the attacking part, as I often struggled to score against lesser teams, which cost me an early exit from the FA cup to Charlton, where I lost 1-0. My report also say that gf/ga against higher rated opponents is 2/11, which is not very good.

With all this in mind, I have a couple of issues to sort out:

How to make my striker more effective?

How to make my wingers create more chances?

Should I have my central midfielders support the attack more?

How to improve my defending along the flanks?

Another one, if you're up for it - Could you suggest an attacking tactic for when I'm in need of goals?

Cheers

[vkatinen]

An update on this:

I bought Berardi and Salvio during the summer transfer window, and set individual instructions for my wingers depending on who's used on which side. I also changed the BWM to BBM and instructed him to get forward more.

First game, away at WBA, I started with Berardi on the right as an IF and Gaitan as a winger on the left. Created around 15 scoring chances, 3 of them clear-cut. Cisse was awful at converting though, and he also missed a penalty in the 92nd minute. WBA were kept to just one half-chance and that's all.

My next game was home against champions Man Utd. I decided to go with Gaitan and Salvio at AML and AMR as wingers to provide crosses for Rescaldani. Worked out fine in the end as I won 1-0 in the end, although Man Utd really dominated the match.

My next game's against Preston in the Capital One cup, which should show if I made any improvements in my approach against weaker teams.

[thizaum]

I've been trying to get a 4-3-3 to work too.

I also play the lone striker as a Poacher. He does not suck, but isn't the best player either.

I always try to get one of my wingers a little more centered. I.e. Left: W-a, Right: AP-s; or Left: IF-a, Right W-a. It depends on who's playing.

Also, I try to get the CMs more forward. I don't really use a AP-a. My center piece ended up being a CM-a, that I wanted to play like Ramires or Paulinho. He's paired with a DLP-s. If I play two wide wingers, I make the DLP an AP-s.

About the striker, I tried a TQ, but did not work (might be my player's fault). I think the TM-a and AF end up too isolated. I often think about DLP-a, CF-a, F9.

But, right now my poacher works.

[thizaum]

Another thing, I believe what the opposition uses on DMC makes a big difference.

In Brazil, a team rarely leaves this position open. Most of the time there are 2 DMCs, and the rest 1.

That's why I think my trequartista striker does not work. Maybe against a regular 4-4-2, it'd work like a charm.

[vkatinen]

Well, I didn't really have a chance to see if my changes worked, because against Preston my idiot left-back Haidara got himself sent off 18 minutes on, and I managed to score (well, they scored an own-goal) after Preston had one of theirs sent off in the 70th.

Played against City away, created one chance, scored one goal, but mostly kept City out of the danger zone. They equalised after Caceres scored an own-goal. Too many of those in this game. Santon had 18 tackles.

What difference do you think a DLPs/CMa setup would make compared to APa/BBM?

[thizaum]

I think a CMa gets more forward than a APa. On another topic, somebody related an APa to a present day Lampard. And I suggest a Ramires. Basically I think you have more forward movement (which is wxactly what you need to fill the gap) and less technique with the CMa.

The BBM is a fine pair for both of them. He also goes all the way to the box, as the name says.

I'm not sure that's the problem, but if you have somebody who can play CMa, maybe give it a try.

On my team, the CMa appears to do better than he should. And, he does better than the reserve, who I play as an APa.

[vkatinen]

I think I found one of the issues when I play inferior teams.

I played Everton away, was vastly superior, and of course, I lost embarassingly, 3-1. All from set pieces.

The thing with my players is - they have no problem getting into good positions, but they always make one touch too many. Gaitan in particular, from his left winger position, had opportunities to shoot or cross 10 times or so, and each and every time he decided to wait and get tackled. I have no idea what's causing the players to make such horrible decisions.

[thizaum]

My team does the same thing!

I have no idea how to solve this.

Actually, most of my goals come from the wings, but I often get mad of them for not crossing right away.

[bababooey]

Using a poacher as a lone striker is a bad idea because they don't roam around into space, and they offer nothing in the build up of play. You don't want those things to happen.

A lone striker should drop deep and link up play!

Your wide players won't be very effective without having the right striker in your system, thus the poacher selection hurts you again.

Also you've got a wingback with a winger both on support, why? The winger already provides solid width, a regular fullback would be a better option behind him.

[tyro]

In FM14 I have had successes with the following Lone Forward Roles (without an AMC behind him):

1) Defensive Forward

2) F9

3) Target Man (support)

I have not tried a Treq. or DLF(s) as of yet, they might also work. I have had no luck with a Poacher or Advanced Forward as a lone striker (unless there is an AMC behind). They simply disappear in the game and then their rating "cosmetically" changes when they score one. The defensive forward has been amazing in closing down and working for the team. The F9 really drops deep and disorganizes the defense. The Target Man is able to provide assists to your AML/R.

As bababooey said, I would also change the WB to a FB behind the winger.

[tennisball]

I have not played with Newcastle on FM14 yet but had a nice save with them on FM13, with almost exactly your setup/tactic.

The only minor differences were that I had a DM(D), I used FB's instead of WB's, and my midfield pairing was usually a CM(A) and CM(S). The striker was the only major difference.

My answers to your questions:

How to make my striker more effective?

I initially tried to use Cisse as a AF as I wanted him stretching the defence, and I knew that a Poacher would leave him too isolated. However this still caused problems so I found the best way to play him was as a CF(S) or a DLF(S). He would drop deep, lay off a pass to a midfielder and then use his pace to get back up top to finish off the moves. He would often play through balls to Ben Arfa as a IF and got a number of assists, so even though he is not a typical deep lying forward that role suits the build up play required in this formation. Try it out and see how it works for you, I would try a F9 role for him in FM14. Cisse's big strength is his pace/acceleration, he can get back up front in a flash which not all deep lying forwards can... Set his personal instruction to play shorter passes perhaps, he just needs to link play up, not play hollywood passes.

Should I have my central midfielders support the attack more?

The choice of AP(A) or CM(A) for Cabaye is whether you want him to be a goal threat or not. An AP(A) will primarily sit in the hole and play clever passes to the attackers in front of him, but not present too much of a goal threat. A CM(A) will get in the box more and will still create opportunities on the way there, but won't just wait in the hole. I preferred to use a CM(A) as I found it was a more balanced role, and made my team a bit more unpredictable (especially if there was a DM playing against me).

The choice of the supporting role would be based on Cabaye's role. Personally I wouldn't use BWM(S) in a Counter tactic as he gets pulled out of position, I used either a CM(S) or BBM. If I had a CM(A) I would pair him with a CM(S), and if I had a AP(A) I would use a BBM. This way you have a nice balance between the two of them.

How to improve my defending along the flanks?

I would consider using FB's instead of WB's if you are concerned about the flanks. You can also change the IF(A) to W(S) if the fullback is bombing past you, and/or man mark him specifically with your AMR. I found that FB(S) and FB(A) were a lot more reliable defensively than WB's, and still provide more than enough support down the flanks. I would only change them to WB's when the opposition were weak down the flanks and I wanted to really exploit the flanks.

How to make my wingers create more chances?

I think if you make the above changes you may see better movement when attacking, which may well lead to your wingers creating more chances.

One thing that I found helped was when the opposition had one or two DM's I would not play Ben Arfa as an IF(A) as they would cut down his space. I would play him as a W(S) or W(A), and with his "Cuts Inside" PPM he would cause havoc down the right by choosing to either go around the defender or cut inside depending on the situation.

Your left winger will benefit from having your FC dropping deep and your CM(A) making forward runs. Not only will he have better passing options but they will drag defenders out of position, giving him space to exploit, and causing him not to be isolated and marked by one or two defenders.

Could you suggest an attacking tactic for when I'm in need of goals?

When the opposition were parking the bus I'd play Control instead of Counter, play shorter passing and play out from the defence (and set GK distribution to defenders). I would also change to Standard or Fluid rather than Rigid, but it's up to you, that's my personal preference.

Then depending on whether I wanted to explaoit the flanks or the middle I would either play with WB's, or play with a DM(S), CM(A) and BBM in midfield. Or do both at once if you want to be really adventurous! But keep your striker on a support role, it is tempting to play an attacking role but your attacks will just break down and you will get countered.

[vkatinen]

I had some horrible bad luck yesterday , was near topping the league after 12 games in the 2nd season, having beaten ManU, City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal along the way, when my game crashed and I lost everything. Your post made me try again instead of starting some new save. Thanks for the insight, tennisball

I'll also try the control formation against weaker teams, as of course I couldn't beat Cardiff, WBA and Crystal Palace during that run. Will keep you updated.

[thizaum]

I've been using the Poacher for a long time. I did try the TMs some times (a have the perfect player for this), but I did not see much of a difference.

I'm definately gonna try T, CFs, DFs or F9 now. I'll let you guys know.

Just one more thing, though: for most of the season I've had a Wa on LAM, an APs on RAM and the P up front. I've realized that every time I changed to something like W or IF, without the APs, the Poacher's performance would drop.

Do you think that even with an APs on the wing, the Poacher is a bad idea? If you have a support striker, you would have 1 attack duty and 2 support duties upfront.

It makes sense to me if you have two attacking wingers.

[m.u.f.c 1878]

I'm using same formation with man utd,my striker is a false 9,2 wingers,one attack and one support.The striker brings them into play really well,good to watch.My right sided cm attacking direct passing.29 prem games played,think it's only 53 goals scored,conceding only 8.

When i have more time,maybe tonight i can go in more depth.

[tennisball]

I had some horrible bad luck yesterday , was near topping the league after 12 games in the 2nd season, having beaten ManU, City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal along the way, when my game crashed and I lost everything. Your post made me try again instead of starting some new save. Thanks for the insight, tennisball

I'll also try the control formation against weaker teams, as of course I couldn't beat Cardiff, WBA and Crystal Palace during that run. Will keep you updated.

No problem

Shame that sucks, do you not use rolling saves? Personally I use a three file rolling save (every fortnight), and I manually back up my game after every season into a seperate folder. I enjoy looking back on long term games to see how my team evolved over time, and if your game gets corrupted you can start at the beginning of the last season...

Good to hear that you are persisting though, I often only settle on the 'best' strategy (in my opinion) after a few months into a new save for my team, and then wish I could have known about it earlier when buying players in preseason! Knowing that you need a certain type of player for your tactic can make a big difference if you spend a whole season playing another player instead who is not ideal for the role...

I find this happens especially with my lone striker or AML/AMR, I buy a poacher type player and then use him more as a deep lying fwd, or buy an out-and-out winger and then play him as an IF. It still works out, but buying a more suitable player in preseason would have made a big difference.

[tennisball]

I've been using the Poacher for a long time. I did try the TMs some times (a have the perfect player for this), but I did not see much of a difference.

I'm definately gonna try T, CFs, DFs or F9 now. I'll let you guys know.

Just one more thing, though: for most of the season I've had a Wa on LAM, an APs on RAM and the P up front. I've realized that every time I changed to something like W or IF, without the APs, the Poacher's performance would drop.

Do you think that even with an APs on the wing, the Poacher is a bad idea? If you have a support striker, you would have 1 attack duty and 2 support duties upfront.

It makes sense to me if you have two attacking wingers.

It makes sense that your team balance worked really well with the AP(S) creating for the P up front, and then that link up totally disappears when the AP(S) changes to a less creative role.

Personally I would be wary of a P up front in tougher matches (even with a AP(S) creating for him), but I'm sure it works nicely in matches where you dominate.

In certain matches you're doing the right thing in changing the AP(S) to a W or IF to change things up a bit, but then the P role would need to change along with it. Even an AF would probably get a bit isolated, so a F9, DLF or CF would probably be the way to go.

On a personal note I would always use a AF instead of a P in a single striker formation (even with the AP(S) supplying him), purely for the increased movement and link up he'd offer. I think that even a 100% pure poacher (like Chicharito/Bent) would suit the tactic better as a AF than a P, but you can try it out for yourself and see what works for you.

[thizaum]

On a personal note I would always use a AF instead of a P in a single striker formation (even with the AP(S) supplying him), purely for the increased movement and link up he'd offer. I think that even a 100% pure poacher (like Chicharito/Bent) would suit the tactic better as a AF than a P, but you can try it out for yourself and see what works for you.

Noted! I'll try that out... Thanks, mate.

[tennisball]

Noted! I'll try that out... Thanks, mate.

No problem, let us know how it goes!

[thizaum]

No problem, let us know how it goes!

This seems to be the way to go now... So far, so good.

I'm getting a 4-2DM-2-1-1 to work, using an APs or AMs paired with an AF. Nice results up to now.

Thanks!

[tennisball]

This seems to be the way to go now... So far, so good.

I'm getting a 4-2DM-2-1-1 to work, using an APs or AMs paired with an AF. Nice results up to now.

Thanks!

Sounds interesting. Is that 2 wide midfielders (ML & MR) or two advanced wingers (AML & AMR)? Or a box type formation with two DM's and two CM's?

It's nice to have a change-up formation like that to use when needed, it sounds really strong centrally.

[thizaum]

Sounds interesting. Is that 2 wide midfielders (ML & MR) or two advanced wingers (AML & AMR)? Or a box type formation with two DM's and two CM's?

It's nice to have a change-up formation like that to use when needed, it sounds really strong centrally.

ML & MR, 2 DM

I've always tried this formation on previous FMs, but always had more luck with a 3-man line on CM. I think it was a bug and now it's gone, right?

The times I tried it during matches on FM14, the team just would magically get better.

My players are better suited for AML and AMR, but like this I'm having more success. Anyways, you can always switch back and forth during matches. You can even mix them and go assymetrical.

I just try to be extracareful linking the suporting DM to the AM.

The DM on Regista has been working better than DLPs or DMs. Maybe BWMs would be good too.

And on AM, Eng would be too static. Treq should work, in theory, but I can't get the MR and ML right to help him. I end up using him on AMs or APs, for proper linking with DMs and WMs, and not getting too close to the AF.

It's pretty predictable... so, I'm going Fluid.