Creating A Tactic - Design, Create and Maintain

[Rob4590]

I know Cleon will probably laugh at me trying to give someone else tactical advice, but I have just come 2nd in the Premier League with West Ham in season 2 with a strikerless 4-1-2-3-0 formation.

GK(D)

FB(S) *2

DC(D) *2

DM(D)

DLP (S) and CM(A) in midfield

IF *2 (usually one on S and one on A) and a TQ(A) in the middle of the 3 AM's.

Playing balanced / counter

2 different variants depending on the opposition - one narrow and one wide.

Apart from 3 players, this has mostly been with the initial Hammers squad, who are decent but not great (the 3 in question are Ruddy as GK, Reveillere at DR and Quintero as TQ (he has been awesome once he settled in properly))

EDIT: TO fit in with this thread - I look at the analysis and stats screens now quite a lot during the games to find out which of my players aren't getting involved (if that happens it's usually one of the IF's - so I then tend to swap them to the other duty). I also look to see where the other side are playing their more defensive MC - and potentially move my CM(A) to the other side to give him more room for his bursts forward. I use OI's to nullify their midfield supply where possible - tight marking a playmaker, while leaving their more defensive MC/DM to try (unsuccessfully) to pull the strings. Choosing the correct DC's for the opposition has worked well - one quicker DC if they have a quick striker for example. Lots of possession for me, but no chances = lower the tempo usually. No possession = play out of defence / retain possession shouts (dependant on the score)

Basically just trying to look at closing down their supply and hitting them with quick 1-2s between my front 4/5 - creates lots of 1 on 1's.

[Cleon]

Why would I laugh? advice is advice at the end of the day and I always encourage people to take part in discussions

[Fieldy_21]

I know Cleon will probably laugh at me trying to give someone else tactical advice, but I have just come 2nd in the Premier League with West Ham in season 2 with a strikerless 4-1-2-3-0 formation.

GK(D)

FB(S) *2

DC(D) *2

DM(D)

DLP (S) and CM(A) in midfield

IF *2 (usually one on S and one on A) and a TQ(A) in the middle of the 3 AM's.

Playing balanced / counter

2 different variants depending on the opposition - one narrow and one wide.

Apart from 3 players, this has mostly been with the initial Hammers squad, who are decent but not great (the 3 in question are Ruddy as GK, Reveillere at DR and Quintero as TQ (he has been awesome once he settled in properly))

EDIT: TO fit in with this thread - I look at the analysis and stats screens now quite a lot during the games to find out which of my players aren't getting involved (if that happens it's usually one of the IF's - so I then tend to swap them to the other duty). I also look to see where the other side are playing their more defensive MC - and potentially move my CM(A) to the other side to give him more room for his bursts forward. I use OI's to nullify their midfield supply where possible - tight marking a playmaker, while leaving their more defensive MC/DM to try (unsuccessfully) to pull the strings. Choosing the correct DC's for the opposition has worked well - one quicker DC if they have a quick striker for example. Lots of possession for me, but no chances = lower the tempo usually. No possession = play out of defence / retain possession shouts (dependant on the score)

Basically just trying to look at closing down their supply and hitting them with quick 1-2s between my front 4/5 - creates lots of 1 on 1's.

Thanks for this, it gives me another thing to think about, I think I'm about to get the sack on my Swindon game so I may start a save higher up to help me practice. I have a feeling that my insistence on using the front 3 of ss-eng-ss is limiting me somewhat, especially when I struggle to get width. Everything gets channeled through the middle and teams find it extremely easy to shut me down. I need to find a way to occupy the opp full backs to stop them just dropping in narrow alongside their cbs and shutting out my front 3 in tandem with their dmc. If I can somehow keep them occupied out wide then they won't be able to drop narrower. I was thinking of perhaps making my lb/rb into lwb/rwb to try and push them further up the pitch to engage the opp full backs but then I may have to drop my defensive midfielder into the back line, thus completely changing my formation

I did make a reactive change yesterday with my front 3 that worked really well as my enganche Ryan mason couldn't get on the ball and was being forced to drop deeper and deeper to mark the opp dmc who was dictating play and moving forward, so I changed his role to trequartista so that he roamed about a bit more and did less pressing and marking and all of a sudden we had an outlet, everything was being channelled through him, this in turn made their dmc stop going forward and dictating play as he became more focused on trying to shut mason down. I do think I limit myself by my reluctance to change the shadow strikers though, I'm also not entirely convinced my two cm pairing is as productive as it can be, it doesn't get involved much going forward, I wasn't sure I wanted them to as they may crowd a central space with yet another player. But I am seeing a lot of the ball going forward and me just having my front three in the opp half and it invariably comes to nothing, so I do think I need another lane of attack, be it from wide or central midfield runners, just not too sure how to implement it atm.

[lewis999]

Personally for me, retraining is one of the biggest things I do on FM and I always try and have natural players (by retraining them until natural) in the positions. It's just a preference of mine really.

Does this come at the expense of training time Cleon? If so does it have a big impact on their development? Once they become natural do you leave the positional training on so they don't drop back to accomplished or do you take it off and just play them in that position religiously so they can't lose it?

[Cleon]

Does this come at the expense of training time Cleon? If so does it have a big impact on their development? Once they become natural do you leave the positional training on so they don't drop back to accomplished or do you take it off and just play them in that position religiously so they can't lose it?

Yeah but not much because it doesn't take that long for players to learn positions if you use them there too. Once natural I remove the training and just continue to play them there

[Luizinho]

Cleon,

I was wondering if you could me understand the difference in player roles in the wide areas. I've been reading up about it but still struggling with it. I was wondering if it would be worth linking it to real life examples?

If you'd agree then who would you say best represent these roles/duties?

Winger (Support):

Winger (Attack):

Inside Forward (Support):

Inside Forward (Attack):

do the duties effect it that much?

[Liquid Cool]

Quick question/observation.

The time you spend on the post-match analysis, couldn't that be used to watch more or even all of the actual match on full in real-time? The post-match analysis gives you some extra information that's not available during the game, of course - but if you spot something that's off while the game is going on, you have the chance to tweak it in time.

But I'm fascinated by your approach, since I do thing completely different. I watch all my games in full (but have the arrow keys mapped to slow, normal, and fast speed to be able to fast forward and slow things down when needed), and I love the match-day experience it provides where I'm able to observe and tweak a lot of things during the match, and not just rely on statistics.

[Cleon]

Quick question/observation.

The time you spend on the post-match analysis, couldn't that be used to watch more or even all of the actual match on full in real-time? The post-match analysis gives you some extra information that's not available during the game, of course - but if you spot something that's off while the game is going on, you have the chance to tweak it in time.

But I'm fascinated by your approach, since I do thing completely different. I watch all my games in full (but have the arrow keys mapped to slow, normal, and fast speed to be able to fast forward and slow things down when needed), and I love the match-day experience it provides where I'm able to observe and tweak a lot of things during the match, and not just rely on statistics.

Well if you read that part you should know why I watched that game back and didn't watch it in real time, I explained it in the very first sentence in that post .

It’s important that for the first game I try and leave stuff untouched the best I can so I can get a real feel of how stuff is working and what’s going on. I’ll still make the odd changes in game if I feel I’m losing the game. But for most parts I like to let the game play out without changes if possible so I can view it back after. Watching a game after its happened is easier than watching one that’s in play because sometimes you view it differently because the result doesn’t matter as the game is over.

Once the season is in full swing and I know and understand the tactic that I'm using then I do watch in real time. But for the first game of the season you don't know how the formation works or understand it yet.

[Cleon]

Cleon,

I was wondering if you could me understand the difference in player roles in the wide areas. I've been reading up about it but still struggling with it. I was wondering if it would be worth linking it to real life examples?

If you'd agree then who would you say best represent these roles/duties?

Winger (Support):

Winger (Attack):

Inside Forward (Support):

Inside Forward (Attack):

do the duties effect it that much?

Rather than focusing on real life why not just learn how they work in game instead?

Wingers provide crosses and a supply of the ball from wide areas to the strikers.

Inside forwards provide more of a gal threat and cut in side to a more central position.

Support will start from deeper areas compared to someone with an attack duty. Quite useful for closing gaps or getting people between the lines.

[tyro]

The changes you made for the Port Vale game, do you do those before the game, or in the pre-match (when you give team talks) or do you start the match and then change it?

My main concern is familiarity, since, if you change it before-hand, your familiarity is lost. I usually start every game the same and then change after watching it a bit. But from your post I realize it is important to start out "right" before the match starts.

My biggest problem really are smaller teams this year around. I am terrified of them. I just played against Bayern (I play Leverkusen) and they are clearly a step above in quality. But I man marked their wingers and I came out winning 1-0. Then I play some no-name club from the 3rd division in the DFB Cup and have a really hard time breaking them down. I won 2-0 in the end but it was a battle. 70% possession and a lot of shots.

I think part of it is that you focus on the big games more - you actually analyze and try to find some weakness to exploit, while against a 3rd division team you just press play (or at least I do). The other is, as from your post, they are probably all sitting back defending and then there is this one set piece and they score. So, I will really start to approach it differently. Instead of going all out and just trying to be "superior" I will sit back and lure them out and then strike - hopefully.

Great insights in the entire thread, how to read the analysis tools. I still keep coming back here and somehow discover something new each time.

[Cleon]

In the game itself, the whole thread is about spotting issues that are happening in games. So before a game I wouldn't have known about these issues or known what changes to make

[bdixon]

Rather than focusing on real life why not just learn how they work in game instead?

Wingers provide crosses and a supply of the ball from wide areas to the strikers.

Inside forwards provide more of a gal threat and cut in side to a more central position.

Support will start from deeper areas compared to someone with an attack duty. Quite useful for closing gaps or getting people between the lines.

This is an issue I am having at the moment, with sliders you could establish how certain roles worked. Now those are gone I'm lost how those act within game. Unless I fully watch it. Which to be honest I don't really have time for. Am I missing something can you still see if a role has RFD sometime/often?

[Steve Odom]

This is an issue I am having at the moment, with sliders you could establish how certain roles worked. Now those are gone I'm lost how those act within game. Unless I fully watch it. Which to be honest I don't really have time for. Am I missing something can you still see if a role has RFD sometime/often?

I believe SI are working on the UI, so it will be clearer in one of the next updates. At the moment you have to use your logic, the descriptions of the roles, the locked out/in instructions and the needed attributes to make an estimated guess.

[Liquid Cool]

Well if you read that part you should know why I watched that game back and didn't watch it in real time, I explained it in the very first sentence in that post .

Once the season is in full swing and I know and understand the tactic that I'm using then I do watch in real time. But for the first game of the season you don't know how the formation works or understand it yet.

Ah, ok, you just wrote something about watching the first 5 minutes in real time, so I assumed your normal habit was highlights - combined with some full periods at times and then a statistics analysis after the game.

(awesome thread, by the way)

[19MiRkO91]

I would love to see a more in depth part about how to spot issues when watching highlights and how you interpret stats.

Thank you for the amazing thread, though!

[olivermain83]

Great thread as always. I especially think the part about changing the roles of the CM's was insightful.

I was wondering if you ever change the role of DM depending on what you're up against? I might be misunderstanding the point of the HB but it seems to me it would be most useful when facing 2 stikers to provide the extra man at the back. Against teams playing 1 up top though would it not be a better idea to change the role to DM(D), A(D) or something like that to protect the area in front of the defense as the 2 cb's should be able to handle 1 forward?

[Cleon]

Great thread as always. I especially think the part about changing the roles of the CM's was insightful.

I was wondering if you ever change the role of DM depending on what you're up against? I might be misunderstanding the point of the HB but it seems to me it would be most useful when facing 2 stikers to provide the extra man at the back. Against teams playing 1 up top though would it not be a better idea to change the role to DM(D), A(D) or something like that to protect the area in front of the defense as the 2 cb's should be able to handle 1 forward?

No because if they are only using 1 up front it means they'll be using a AMC or AML/AMR and I'd need him to cover so I don't get outnumbered. It's very rare you'd come up against a flat 451 of anykind but even then you'd want him dropping back to help out with the runners from MC.

Altering the Half back would mean my wingbacks couldn't attack as much, the reason it works now is the centrebacks can cover the space or any balls over the top and know there is still cover in the middle from the halfback.

[olivermain83]

No because if they are only using 1 up front it means they'll be using a AMC or AML/AMR and I'd need him to cover so I don't get outnumbered. It's very rare you'd come up against a flat 451 of anykind but even then you'd want him dropping back to help out with the runners from MC.

Altering the Half back would mean my wingbacks couldn't attack as much, the reason it works now is the centrebacks can cover the space or any balls over the top and know there is still cover in the middle from the halfback.

So does the half back drop deep when in or out of posession? I think you wrote that he drops deep when defending but moves forward when you're attacking. If he does that and the WB's bomb forward does that not mean you a have a tendency to over-commit players forward in attacking situations leaving you vulnerable to counters?

Or does he work the opposite of how i think? I should probably just try it to see what happens but I've not seen much of bayern to know how it plays out IRL.

[Cleon]

So does the half back drop deep when in or out of posession? I think you wrote that he drops deep when defending but moves forward when you're attacking. If he does that and the WB's bomb forward does that not mean you a have a tendency to over-commit players forward in attacking situations leaving you vulnerable to counters?

Or does he work the opposite of how i think? I should probably just try it to see what happens but I've not seen much of bayern to know how it plays out IRL.

He pushes forward when in possession and drops back when not. But no it doesn't mean I commit too many forward because he'll push up to DMC spot or maybe MC providing me with numbers to deal with any kind of counter attack etc. It means he can deal with the threats a lot earlier. You only have to look at the roles/duties to see I don't over commit players

[olivermain83]

He pushes forward when in possession and drops back when not. But no it doesn't mean I commit too many forward because he'll push up to DMC spot or maybe MC providing me with numbers to deal with any kind of counter attack etc. It means he can deal with the threats a lot earlier. You only have to look at the roles/duties to see I don't over commit players

It sounds quite similar to how i'd imagine a Libero to behave then (another role i've not tried). It seems like the best choice of role really from a defensive point of view. There seems no reason to use anything else.

[Rocka74]

Just wanted to add many thank's to Cleon for opening this thread!

Been trying to replicate Dortmunds tactics for a long time now, but after reading through this thread I finally understood what I did wrong.

Looking at Bayern Münchens developement last season, they actually copied Dortmunds gegenpressing (Counterpressing) with the difference that BM is even more attacking than BVB.

Though I'm playing as Dynamo Dresden we've become even closer to the real BVB's tactics and been delivering some amazing results so far.

I'd love to keep you going Cleon in this thread, how about a plan B, when you meet a really strong team?

[Cleon]

It sounds quite similar to how i'd imagine a Libero to behave then (another role i've not tried). It seems like the best choice of role really from a defensive point of view. There seems no reason to use anything else.

Not really its totally different to a libero. The libero doesn't make the DC's split and is more about joining and supporting attacks by pushing up and bringing the ball out from the back. The half back is about providing defensive cover, both go to the other extreme and aren't similar in the way they play at all.

[shirajzl]

Let me make an assumption or three and correct me if I'm wrong, please.

1. In such a 4141 setup, you need to use wingbacks in order to provide enough width and attacking options, especially because you have only one forward and no AM stratum players. Fullbacks wouldn't be sufficient(with wide midfielders)?

2. However, if you want to use wingbacks, you should use Half-back as well to provide defensive cover because he steps back between centre-backs.

3. If you want to use fullbacks who are defensively more aware than wingbacks, you don't really need a half-back, but a an anchor to sit in front of defense and cover the wings when one of the fullbacks goes forward. Would he work that way?

General question; when playing with a lone striker, such as DLF or F9, you just have to have fullbacks/wingbacks bursting forward, even when using AML/AMR players? The problem is the following: if I use what is considered a balanced tactic of 41221 with DMC, two MCs and AML/AMR, fullbacks have to be heavily involved up front (attacking-support combination with wingers/IFs on both sides), but then I'm leaky defensively. If I don't commit them forward, I'm very easy to shut down when going on attacks.

The problem is even amplified when I'm using variants of flat 4141...

[NakS]

@Olivermain

Regarding the HB, you'd better try in one game and see how it looks. I have played quite a bit with this role and you have 3 phases

1. Not in possession. The HB acts as a regular DMC and form a defensive triangle with his 2CBs. If a CB is dragged out wide or in not in position for some reason, the HB will take his place as a regular DMC would. Same, if he is marking someone who is pushing up, he is likely to be in the box alongside your CBs as a regular DMC. Nothing really different from a DefMif-Def

2. You have just regain possession in your D-Line or the ball is in one of your CB feet. The HB will drop deep inbetween the 2CBs and they will move wider a bit to make him space and to cover the flank inbehind the FB/WB who can, as a result, move forward. His task is to help bringing the ball forward by offering another deep passing outlet and form a back 3. If you want to built from the back, I'd advise using the HB with a deep lying midfielder (like DLP-S in CM spot) to connect with him and form a passing diamond at the back, especially if you are using the "play out of defense" shout" in addition to a control-offensive strategy.

3. When in possession and ball is past the MC line. The HB will move back to his regular DMC position to offering defensive protection for the 2CBs forming the defensive triangle protecting from counter attack.

So, it's a shuttling move in possession, drops back when ball is regained deep (or move deep, recycling possession through CB) and once the ball is more forward, he is moving up, back in his regular DMC position.

Here are some screens to help you out.

1. HB (Machin) at kick-off. Inbetween 2 CBs

2. HB coming short to help moving the ball forward (defender collect)

3. HB staying inbetween 2CBs once ball is released, ball is not forward enough.

4. HB is now ahead of CB once the ball is further up the pitch.

5. Regular HB positioning forming a defensive triangle.

[Cleon]

Let me make an assumption or three and correct me if I'm wrong, please.

1. In such a 4141 setup, you need to use wingbacks in order to provide enough width and attacking options, especially because you have only one forward and no AM stratum players. Fullbacks wouldn't be sufficient(with wide midfielders)?

2. However, if you want to use wingbacks, you should use Half-back as well to provide defensive cover because he steps back between centre-backs.

3. If you want to use fullbacks who are defensively more aware than wingbacks, you don't really need a half-back, but a an anchor to sit in front of defense and cover the wings when one of the fullbacks goes forward. Would he work that way?

General question; when playing with a lone striker, such as DLF or F9, you just have to have fullbacks/wingbacks bursting forward, even when using AML/AMR players? The problem is the following: if I use what is considered a balanced tactic of 41221 with DMC, two MCs and AML/AMR, fullbacks have to be heavily involved up front (attacking-support combination with wingers/IFs on both sides), but then I'm leaky defensively. If I don't commit them forward, I'm very easy to shut down when going on attacks.

The problem is even amplified when I'm using variants of flat 4141...

1. No that's not true at all but wingbacks suit what I was creating and the way the rest of the set up works. If you want to use fullbacks that can work too but you'd need to make sure the rest of the tactic complimented them.

2. No, again its down to what you are creating and what you from a tactic. Think of the bigger picture and how it all functions together. So in my case because I wanted aggressive wing backs then it means they'll get caught out of position so you need to make sure you have enough bodies in the important areas to cover the space so it doesn't become an issue.

3. Depends on the rest of the set up like above. If you use fullbacks who are more defensive and an anchor then you need to know how you'll get the ball to the attacking players and who the supporting players are.

I think your issue is you seem to think about the individual role and not think about things in the grand scheme of things. Anything can work but you need to put it all together and get it working as a unit. What you think is the best role/duty for someone might not be what's actually best for the team. This is why you need a clear vision of how you'd like to play then you can base the roles towards this rather than what the individual is good at and select the best role for what will help you achieve your style of play.

So if you use a set up that includes a striker who drops deep then you already should know you need players who can push up and use the space he creates. Or if you use a striker who stays high up the pitch then you know you have to have support players supporting him and getting forward as well as players who are capable of providing him the balls he needs to function and so on.

[Cleon]

@Olivermain

Regarding the HB, you'd better try in one game and see how it looks. I have played quite a bit with this role and you have 3 phases

1. Not in possession. The HB acts as a regular DMC and form a defensive triangle with his 2CBs. If a CB is dragged out wide or in not in position for some reason, the HB will take his place as a regular DMC would. Same, if he is marking someone who is pushing up, he is likely to be in the box alongside your CBs as a regular DMC. Nothing really different from a DefMif-Def

2. You have just regain possession in your D-Line or the ball is in one of your CB feet. The HB will drop deep inbetween the 2CBs and they will move wider a bit to make him space and to cover the flank inbehind the FB/WB who can, as a result, move forward. His task is to help bringing the ball forward by offering another deep passing outlet and form a back 3. If you want to built from the back, I'd advise using the HB with a deep lying midfielder (like DLP-S in CM spot) to connect with him and form a passing diamond at the back, especially if you are using the "play out of defense" shout" in addition to a control-offensive strategy.

3. When in possession and ball is past the MC line. The HB will move back to his regular DMC position to offering defensive protection for the 2CBs forming the defensive triangle protecting from counter attack.

So, it's a shuttling move in possession, drops back when ball is regained deep (or move deep, recycling possession through CB) and once the ball is more forward, he is moving up, back in his regular DMC position.

Here are some screens to help you out.

1. HB (Machin) at kick-off. Inbetween 2 CBs

2. HB coming short to help moving the ball forward (defender collect)

3. HB staying inbetween 2CBs once ball is released, ball is not forward enough.

4. HB is now ahead of CB once the ball is further up the pitch.

5. Regular HB positioning forming a defensive triangle.

Thanks, you saved me a job I was going to take some screens for him too

[olivermain83]

Thanks very much. As i'd mentioned i don't think i've seen a HB IRL so didn't really understand the role or why to use one other than it's similar to what Busquets sometimes does. I've a much better idea now.

[shirajzl]

1. No that's not true at all but wingbacks suit what I was creating and the way the rest of the set up works. If you want to use fullbacks that can work too but you'd need to make sure the rest of the tactic complimented them.

2. No, again its down to what you are creating and what you from a tactic. Think of the bigger picture and how it all functions together. So in my case because I wanted aggressive wing backs then it means they'll get caught out of position so you need to make sure you have enough bodies in the important areas to cover the space so it doesn't become an issue.

3. Depends on the rest of the set up like above. If you use fullbacks who are more defensive and an anchor then you need to know how you'll get the ball to the attacking players and who the supporting players are.

I think your issue is you seem to think about the individual role and not think about things in the grand scheme of things. Anything can work but you need to put it all together and get it working as a unit. What you think is the best role/duty for someone might not be what's actually best for the team. This is why you need a clear vision of how you'd like to play then you can base the roles towards this rather than what the individual is good at and select the best role for what will help you achieve your style of play.

So if you use a set up that includes a striker who drops deep then you already should know you need players who can push up and use the space he creates. Or if you use a striker who stays high up the pitch then you know you have to have support players supporting him and getting forward as well as players who are capable of providing him the balls he needs to function and so on.

Thanks for this. It's really difficult to think about bigger picture when I don't know exactly how each role in FM behaves. For example, a while ago I read something along the lines of "I have a left attacking fullback, so I'll play Anchor so that he covers that flank when the fullbacks is caught out of position". I never thought anchor did that, I always imagined him just sitting in front of defence and help the midfield battle in the centre.

It's just an example, but stuff like that makes it really difficult to fully adopt a certain style of play without time consuming trial and error (monkey and the type machine, as wwfan so eloquently described).

[Cleon]

Thanks for this. It's really difficult to think about bigger picture when I don't know exactly how each role in FM behaves. For example, a while ago I read something along the lines of "I have a left attacking fullback, so I'll play Anchor so that he covers that flank when the fullbacks is caught out of position". I never thought anchor did that, I always imagined him just sitting in front of defence and help the midfield battle in the centre.

It's just an example, but stuff like that makes it really difficult to fully adopt a certain style of play without time consuming trial and error (monkey and the type machine, as wwfan so eloquently described).

An anchor wouldn't cover the space really of the fullback so I see where you are coming.

For the moment forget everything you think others would do and try and think about stuff you'd do. You knew the anchor man stuff was wrong so believe more in your own judgement and do more trial and errors if needs be. Just think of the style you want to create then set the roles you think achieves this style. By watching a couple of games you should see the issues or you can even post asking for help refining your tactic is you need.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Thanks for this. It's really difficult to think about bigger picture when I don't know exactly how each role in FM behaves. For example, a while ago I read something along the lines of "I have a left attacking fullback, so I'll play Anchor so that he covers that flank when the fullbacks is caught out of position". I never thought anchor did that, I always imagined him just sitting in front of defence and help the midfield battle in the centre.

It's just an example, but stuff like that makes it really difficult to fully adopt a certain style of play without time consuming trial and error (monkey and the type machine, as wwfan so eloquently described).

EDIT: and to prove my point(!) Cleon shows my understanding to be wrong! haha.

[burdinho]

@cleon

really interesting read, particularly as Im managing Sheff Utd. Disappointing end to the 1st season as I tailed off badly, finishing 10th. I was expecting the sack but got a new 1 year contract and therefore set about getting rid of a lot of deadwood.

Signed yannick bolasie, danny fox, will keane, matt mills, wasilewski all on loan, plus adam hammill and john fleck permanently.

But having read through this thread, have played around with the roles/pairings so hopefully a lot tighter now. Only played 2 games, both away...1 win and 1 draw.

Has to be a promotion season!

[Cleon]

@cleon

really interesting read, particularly as Im managing Sheff Utd. Disappointing end to the 1st season as I tailed off badly, finishing 10th. I was expecting the sack but got a new 1 year contract and therefore set about getting rid of a lot of deadwood.

Signed yannick bolasie, danny fox, will keane, matt mills, wasilewski all on loan, plus adam hammill and john fleck permanently.

But having read through this thread, have played around with the roles/pairings so hopefully a lot tighter now. Only played 2 games, both away...1 win and 1 draw.

Has to be a promotion season!

You finished 10th and kept your job? Wow lucky man

[bababooey]

Cleon,

As you say you in your OP you're generally playing an attacking mentality, + the instructions to hassle opponents. Now obviously that is a very proactive system that actively looks to win the ball back, as you are trying to emulate modern Bayern Munich under Pep. The key aspect here is that you are playing a 4-1-4-1, which clearly = a big battle in midfield for possession. So the space the opposition would have available is the area between your fullbacks and wide midfielders, on both sides, and then the area between the striker and the rest of your team. Those gaps are potentially significant if you came up against say, a 4-2DM-3-1 that played a possession game as the DMC's aren't marked (assuming your striker is marking the CD's) and the AML/AMR will be drawing the attention of your wide players, while the AMC draws the attention of your CDM. My question here is, how have you adapted your pressing game in these situations? Certainly it is much harder to close the ball down in those spaces? And in doing so, certainly it would open up your team? As the strength of the 4-1-4-1 is in it's ability to win the midfield battle, whereas when closing down AI DMC's, your CM's would have to leave their positions, no?

The other point I'd like to make, is that if you're only using a lone striker in the attacking band, how do you effectively close down the opposition who may focus down their flanks with good fullbacks? If you've got your wide midfielders, and they close down the AI fullbacks, now you've been pulled out of position and the AI wingers are left 1v1 with your fullbacks, right?

edited one of the key parts of Barcelona's ability (under pep) to win the ball back is that it is a team effort. In FM terms, this is not necessarily easy because using "hassle opponents" can really rip up a team's shape, whereas Barcelona seemed to always be able to keep shape, yet close the ball down quickly and regain possession. But I think what helped Barcelona was they used players in the AML/AMR spot, which pep is not doing at Bayern, which is something that perhaps gets overlooked. The AML/AMR would be critical for closing down opposing fullbacks, who normally offer a good outlet to keep the ball. Without the AML/AMR, it has to be a much greater overall effort from the team to win the ball back, no? Especially if the only player closing down from the attacking band is a lone striker, certainly he can't be expected to run between all of the back line?

[burdinho]

You finished 10th and kept your job? Wow lucky man

yep I was already scanning the classifieds for a new job! I think it was signing high profile players that kept me in a job..

just lost 3-1 at home to swindon which isnt great...

I've definitely got the players but I'm having real problems getting any momentum going. Familiarity is almost at maximum but doesnt seem to make a difference. What has been your most successful tactic/system with them?

[Cleon]

As you say you in your OP you're generally playing an attacking mentality, + the instructions to hassle opponents. Now obviously that is a very proactive system that actively looks to win the ball back, as you are trying to emulate modern Bayern Munich under Pep. The key aspect here is that you are playing a 4-1-4-1, which clearly = a big battle in midfield for possession. So the space the opposition would have available is the area between your fullbacks and wide midfielders, on both sides, and then the area between the striker and the rest of your team.

How do they have space on the wings or where the striker is? They don't. Both sides are evenly balanced so the gap between the WB's and WM's isn't that big because the more attacking wingback has the WM dropping deeper, the more attacking WM has the wingback behind him staying deeper. Couple this with a very high defensive line and the space is none existent.

Those gaps are potentially significant if you came up against say, a 4-2DM-3-1 that played a possession game as the DMC's aren't marked (assuming your striker is marking the CD's) and the AML/AMR will be drawing the attention of your wide players, while the AMC draws the attention of your CDM

Why would this be hard? I fail to see why you think its an issue. The 4-2-3-1 (even the deep version) is the most easiest formation to exploit regardless of how they set up due to the space they leave everywhere on the pitch. It wouldn't be a problem for me using this tactic because I'd win the midfield battle due to better numbers.

My question here is, how have you adapted your pressing game in these situations? Certainly it is much harder to close the ball down in those spaces? And in doing so, certainly it would open up your team? As the strength of the 4-1-4-1 is in it's ability to win the midfield battle, whereas when closing down AI DMC's, your CM's would have to leave their positions, no?

Why would I have to worry about DMC's? a DMC can't hurt you. My midfield would cause them issues when pushing up in attacking moves. I don't have to change anything and my strength isn't the midfield its how the wide players, MC's and striker link up that is key. While I have the numbers in midfield its actually the wingers who would be important because they provide the width. I don't change the way I play because I know and understand the system I use . My MC's would be in space when in possession and the AI would either stand off and leave me loads of space or push up to deal with my MC's and create space in behind.

The other point I'd like to make, is that if you're only using a lone striker in the attacking band, how do you effectively close down the opposition who may focus down their flanks with good fullbacks? If you've got your wide midfielders, and they close down the AI fullbacks, now you've been pulled out of position and the AI wingers are left 1v1 with your fullbacks, right?

The WM's are positioned so they either deal with a fullback or help out and provide cover for the AI's wingers. I don't see why you think I'd get pulled out of position? My side don't run about like headless chickens closing down every single ball, they keep shape pretty well and are positioned exactly how I need them to be. You have to remember my WM's and WB's are positioned very close to each other when defending so its rare I'd be out numbered. It would be a different story if I used AML/AMR but I don't

[bababooey]

What I meant about the space between the WM's and the FB's is that the opposition is forced to play in those areas, or deeper (between the striker and your midfield), but I can see what you mean when you say the space is rather small, that of course makes perfect sense.

Regarding the deep 4-2-3-1, in my recent experience this has not been exactly the case. For example I just played HSV who use that formation.. The 2 DM's were pushed up high and both completed over 55 passes each. 84 and 92% respectively, now they didn't hit any key passes or score goals, but their passing was critical in allowing HSV to dominate possession in my defensive third. So I think of course the DM's could cause problems for people. Now this is despite that I instructed my AML/AMR to close down fullbacks, and my team to push up, attacking, hassle, etc. Technically speaking I should win that midfield battle as I've got the nice, tight, DM triangle, compared to them having a spread out DM-DM-AMC combination, but in practice that wasn't how it happened. In theory I agree with you, but it perhaps isn't as easy as you say it is.

And finally the last point I was trying to make was that if the opposing fullbacks are not closed down by say, an AML/AMR then the ML/MR in your side must close them down. Thus, your fullbacks are now left to play the opponents wide players, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but 1v1's out wide aren't necessarily ideal are they? Certainly not when you face teams with excellent wingers.

I hope I dont seem like I'm criticizing your formation, as I am not. I'm just trying to understand how your pressing/closing down can be so effective with only the STC closing down from the attacking band. I mean I can't even get my team to close down effectively and I use 3 players in that band!

[KingRoyston]

@ Cleon

Thanks for another fascinating thread - i've been trying to replicate a Bayern tactic for a while so really enjoying testing out your approach here. A couple of questions:

1) Have you ever considered using a sweeper keeper instead of a regular keeper? I've been experimenting with it and it's helped me out a few times in dealing with balls over the top.

2) Do you follow the current Bayern set-up by using a right footed WM on the left and vise versa? I've been experimenting and it seems to make quite a difference in how the wide players get involved in the game.

[Cleon]

What I meant about the space between the WM's and the FB's is that the opposition is forced to play in those areas, or deeper (between the striker and your midfield), but I can see what you mean when you say the space is rather small, that of course makes perfect sense.

Ah I get what you mean

Yeah I guess they are kind of. But because I play high tempo, push high up and close down heavily I force the opposition to think quickly and don't give them time on the ball so this forces them to play the ball even when they shouldn't or forces them to play the wrong option.

What I meant about the space between the WM's and the FB's is that the opposition is forced to play in those areas, or deeper (between the striker and your midfield), but I can see what you mean when you say the space is rather small, that of course makes perfect sense.

Regarding the deep 4-2-3-1, in my recent experience this has not been exactly the case. For example I just played HSV who use that formation.. The 2 DM's were pushed up high and both completed over 55 passes each. 84 and 92% respectively, now they didn't hit any key passes or score goals, but their passing was critical in allowing HSV to dominate possession in my defensive third. So I think of course the DM's could cause problems for people. Now this is despite that I instructed my AML/AMR to close down fullbacks, and my team to push up, attacking, hassle, etc. Technically speaking I should win that midfield battle as I've got the nice, tight, DM triangle, compared to them having a spread out DM-DM-AMC combination, but in practice that wasn't how it happened. In theory I agree with you, but it perhaps isn't as easy as you say it is.

I was purely talking about the 4-2-3-1 against the shape in the OP seeing as that's what you mentioned. The 2 DMC's in the 4-2-3-1 can't do damage against me and if they are playing a possession game then that means they are starving the front 4 of possession because the gap for them is too great. So any possession they have would be deep in their own half which suits me. I'm not sure how 2 DMC's would allow for you to get dominated in your own final 3rd though unless I got it wrong what you meant?

And finally the last point I was trying to make was that if the opposing fullbacks are not closed down by say, an AML/AMR then the ML/MR in your side must close them down. Thus, your fullbacks are now left to play the opponents wide players, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but 1v1's out wide aren't necessarily ideal are they? Certainly not when you face teams with excellent wingers.

I don't get the point you are trying to make here. You could apply this logic to any area of the pitch though. My ML/R only have to worry about the oppositions fullbacks if they push up past midfield in which case I'm pretty confident they can deal with them due to their starting position and playing the right kind of player on the wing. It's not an issue and not risky like you are making out. I wish teams did play like this against me though because I'd rip them to pieces with any kind of counter attack down the wings if their fullbacks pushed up.

I hope I dont seem like I'm criticizing your formation, as I am not. I'm just trying to understand how your pressing/closing down can be so effective with only the STC closing down from the attacking band. I mean I can't even get my team to close down effectively and I use 3 players in that band!

I don't think you are criticising at all

Ah but you see if you have 3 players closing down heavily in this band then that means one simple pass from defence to midfield and it takes 3 players of yours straight out of the game

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but I think you are focusing on negatives that don't exist and worrying about the opposition far too much. Don't get me wrong you should be aware of what the opposition is doing and be wary but I think you are over thinking it and seeing things that don't exist. Even if they did you should be thinking about how you can work this to your advantage and turn this into a strength. So in your example about the fullbacks and wingers if the fullbacks pushed up I'd look at exploiting the wings more and playing a more direct game on the wings. If the fullbacks push up this means I have lots of space in behind them and with the midfield I have pushing up I'd have a 2 on 1 advantage when winning the ball back

From your own thread you did I'm beginning to think that when I said you was confused about the way you wanted/was playing is actually down to over thinking about what the AI is doing and its causing you to lose focus on what you originally started out to create because you are focusing on them too much and trying to play the perfect game against them?

[Cleon]

@ Cleon

Thanks for another fascinating thread - i've been trying to replicate a Bayern tactic for a while so really enjoying testing out your approach here. A couple of questions:

1) Have you ever considered using a sweeper keeper instead of a regular keeper? I've been experimenting with it and it's helped me out a few times in dealing with balls over the top.

2) Do you follow the current Bayern set-up by using a right footed WM on the left and vise versa? I've been experimenting and it seems to make quite a difference in how the wide players get involved in the game.

1 - I have thought about it but my keeper isn't the best to be able to play this way so I don't use it. I felt it would cause me more issues and make him a liability is I tried him as a sweeper keeper.

2 - No as I don't have the personnel to do this yet. My winger are actually pretty poor players all round, its the weak link in my squad and something that needs correcting for the 2nd season.

[burdinho]

cleon

I agree - I signed Kazenga LuaLua on a perm deal, plus Yannick Bolasie on loan...LuaLua is highly flawed but Bolasie should breeze through L1...I say "should" but the season hasnt got off to the best of starts...

Also regarding the team instructions being set to "Bayern style" - how has working with a much higher defensive line worked out for you? Collins and Maguire are very very slow...does this not overly expose you?

I know that using a SK can help with this, but I'd have imagined that Collins/Maguire would be very exposed with such a high line...

[bababooey]

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but I think you are focusing on negatives that don't exist and worrying about the opposition far too much. Don't get me wrong you should be aware of what the opposition is doing and be wary but I think you are over thinking it and seeing things that don't exist. Even if they did you should be thinking about how you can work this to your advantage and turn this into a strength. So in your example about the fullbacks and wingers if the fullbacks pushed up I'd look at exploiting the wings more and playing a more direct game on the wings. If the fullbacks push up this means I have lots of space in behind them and with the midfield I have pushing up I'd have a 2 on 1 advantage when winning the ball back

From your own thread you did I'm beginning to think that when I said you was confused about the way you wanted/was playing is actually down to over thinking about what the AI is doing and its causing you to lose focus on what you originally started out to create because you are focusing on them too much and trying to play the perfect game against them?

This is absolutely 100% true. Absolutely. Despite being a top team in Germany after 29 matches I am still not confident in my team's ability to win in any situation. Our goal difference is +23, compared to Bayern and Dormund who are both over +35 yet we sit 2nd in the table 2 points off the top spot. It's truly incredible how fortunate we've been in this case. There isn't even anyone behind us really!

But yes I do tend to worry about what the other team is doing simply because I am not seeing the team play the way I'd like to see them play. The ideas in my head have not quite translated properly onto the pitch, essentially. Which is why I keep reading these threads over to see what I'm missing.

But the biggest reason for this, my concern, is that our one glaring issue is the inability to keep the ball or win it back from the other team. So we end up with games where, we played okay, scored 1 or 2 goals, won the match, but lost possession like 60-40%, and watched the other team play the ball around in our half.

The really frustrating part is that unless we play something like: Attacking + hassle + get stuck in + push higher we struggle to win the ball and keep it. Any lower mentality and we're down to 50% possession and any lower from there we're down to 35%. I've never experienced this before on any version of FM. It's truly incredible to see.

[19MiRkO91]

Do you ever pay attention to scout reports? If so, how do you use it? Maybe it could be a nice part to see in this thread!

[Cleon]

Do you ever pay attention to scout reports? If so, how do you use it? Maybe it could be a nice part to see in this thread!

No I just make my own judgement on the player and his attributes

[19MiRkO91]

Then you just look at attributes and understand what their strengths and weaknesses are, right? How do you understand wether it's a strength or a weakness? Well, of course a low attribute is a weakness and a high one is a strength, but how high/low should it be to be a strength/weakness? Do you use any OI to exploit them?

[Cleon]

Then you just look at attributes and understand what their strengths and weaknesses are, right? How do you understand wether it's a strength or a weakness? Well, of course a low attribute is a weakness and a high one is a strength, but how high/low should it be to be a strength/weakness? Do you use any OI to exploit them?

Well as I highlighted in the thread already, I only ever make changes based on what is happening in a game. I don't try guessing what's going to happen I personally don't see the point. So I adapt to what's going on inside the actual game and what's happening on the pitch

[19MiRkO91]

Do you think you need to know what every option/instruction/decision involves to do it? Sorry if I'm asking questions you've already replied, but the thread is getting long and I surely lost some of your posts!

[burdinho]

cleon

I agree - I signed Kazenga LuaLua on a perm deal, plus Yannick Bolasie on loan...LuaLua is highly flawed but Bolasie should breeze through L1...I say "should" but the season hasnt got off to the best of starts...

Also regarding the team instructions being set to "Bayern style" - how has working with a much higher defensive line worked out for you? Collins and Maguire are very very slow...does this not overly expose you?

I know that using a SK can help with this, but I'd have imagined that Collins/Maguire would be very exposed with such a high line...

cleon, any thoughts on this?

[burdinho]

so out of interest, do people choose to watch full match/extended/key highlights?

Having read this thread, I'm definitely watching more of each match now!

[Cleon]

Do you think you need to know what every option/instruction/decision involves to do it? Sorry if I'm asking questions you've already replied, but the thread is getting long and I surely lost some of your posts!

You really need to read the full thread, if not you'll not really understand what's going on etc. I know the thread might seem long but its just as tedious writing the same replies over and over for me

cleon, any thoughts on this?

Did I seem exposed in the posts I wrote about or the uploaded videos?

But no I'm not exposed. There is always a risk that slower players making mistakes will make it harder for them to recover should it happen. But it isn't really an issue and even if I was playing a lower line there is a chance of them making the same mistakes. I prefer mistakes to happen higher up the pitch rather than closer to me own goal

[burdinho]

excellent thanks...the AVB sacking has really brought the defensive high line debate into the limelight!