Do we sometimes expect too much?

[Pommy]

Reading a lot of comments about the game, lots of good and bad.

I can understand people wanting a game they have paid good money for to be perfect but just taking a bit of time to think about things a few points of putting a game like FM together I am thinking that it is a particularly difficult task and here are a few of the main thinking points I have for people hating...

Creating an interactive 'game world' is always going to be much harder than a 'linear game'

FIFA is a great example of a football game, FIFA Manager was, well...

I would have thought high graphics based games are easier code than calculating every interaction during a football game and factor the impact of a players specif ratings into the event, then display it on a graphical representation such as the match engine.

The ME is half the game, that incredibly complex task is then paired with a game world where AI managers must use scouts, coaches etc as the player does, and do this in a realistic non scripted manner.

It would be so much easier to script the majority of interactions both in game and the game world, then people complain when something unrealistic happens.

I know there are a lot of bugs which are been worked on but I think it is only fair that people consider the bigger picture and understand that coding a game like FM is F***ing difficult! There is a reason nobody else is trying to do it better, and nobody ever came close in the past.

Fix the bugs SI!

[forameuss]

Yes, most people expect far, far too much. Some of the comments annoy me as a developer, so can't imagine how much ire the worst ones draw from the SI devs

[Pommy]

Yes those are my thoughs, I can understand people being passionate about a game they care so much about but I think if they could understand all the coding that is involved they would begin to realise that it doesn't all happen by magic.

[fabioke]

Yes those are my thoughs, I can understand people being passionate about a game they care so much about but I think if they could understand all the coding that is involved they would begin to realise that it doesn't all happen by magic.

Couldn't agree more, the fact that there is rage when players don't react exactly as in real life, means that the developers have done an excellent job in masking the fact that the ME is just composed with C++ code(A very difficult coding language IMHO).

I have just started to program for fun recently and I can't even imagine the complexity needed to make such an ambitious game that simulates a complete football match linked to a global simulated football world.

All serious competitors have given up for a reason and this also means that SI needs to discover everything by itself being the industry pioneer.

The greatest accomplishment is that due to all the scandals in Italian football I'm enjoying real world football less than I used to, but my passion for FM has stayed roughly the same.

[ChrisLiebing]

FM 2013 was a really good game from 13.1.3, how has it managed to get from that to this? The game is essentially the same thing every year so how can a few changes result in such a lot of flaws upon release of the next version? Into the 3rd patch now and it looks like at least one more will be required.

[Dagenham_Dave]

FM 2013 was a really good game from 13.1.3, how has it managed to get from that to this? .

As it stands just now, FM14 a better game than the 'finished' version of FM13. Which was also a great game. By far the most stable game at this point of release there's been in many years. But that's just my opinion, based on over 500 hours gameplay on this version already. I wouldn't waste 500 hours of my life on a 'broken' game, that's for sure.

[SmurfDude]

There's a reason FM has no competition. The ME is incredibly complex and sophisticated and it'd take other developers many years to get close. Even EA with their vast wealth and resources couldn't manage it, and then there's the huge database we have which no other developer could match. Yet its still not enough for some people, they whine about the ME not perfectly replicating real life. Its such a ridiculous expectation due to the complexity of coding intelligent behaviour. Millions is spent each year on research and development in to computer A.I and its still miles off human intelligence, but FM has to try and code 22 players individually "thinking". While I'm not in the habit of coming on this forum and moaning about the people who moan, a small handful of the spoiilt posters on here make me quite angry due to their sense of entitlement. Its been the same for years but it seems to get worse as time goes on. Its a case of the more we get the more people want. Its the same for all games though.

[Auqakuh]

Usually what I find most interesting about a lot of those people who complain about a lack of realism is that they do not, in fact, know what is realistic.

That's always the most interesting.

And funny.

Like, for example, the old chestnut - "My team had 30 shots on goal and didn't score, but they only had one shot on goal and scored!"

It's almost as if Reep were in the room. Quantity has nothing to do with quality! Of course, for me, the hilarity factor increases tenfold if they add "It happens all the time, not just occasionally!"

The funny thing about it is that they think that's not realistic. But if I think back over the years, I can think of many a team lead by a rubbish tactician squandering chance after chance after chance, hitting the post and the bar and whatnot dozens of times. Indeed, this actually also happens to teams with good tacticians as well, so you could argue that FM is unrealistic in the sense that if you get the tactics right, generally you do actually score a fair amount of goals - Liverpool under Rafa Benitez towards the end of his time in charge found the exact opposite can happen and reality still be utterly realistic.

[ChrisLiebing]

"based on over 500 hours gameplay on this version already"

If you've been playing a computer game for 16 hours a day every day for a month you need to seriously consider the implications on your health, honestly man that is not good for you.

[Fond Foat]

It may need even people that people expect too much but that we live in a bit of a "complain" society. In general, most people try to blame others for their own mistakes or failures. I used to always blame the match engine when I had a poor tactic or such. Since changing my mindset since FM11, I realise if I am losing, I am doing something wrong.

I do believe it is a bit of both, in reality. It is a game; it is not real life, and some people just want to blame the game for their own mistakes.

[elland road boo boys]

I fully agree I think the "perfection" that everybody is craving for is impossible to achieve in such a complicated game as this.

I commend SI & all involved for bringing out such a complicated "in-game" at the same time every year, which must be a hell of a job in itself & sadly seems to be missed

[Jibby123]

Only because people care. I am sure SI would hate the alternative; that being if 2-3 people per day rocked up at their forum to comment on the imperfections.

Real football is pretty imperfect anyway (Carrol transfer in and out of Liverpool, Chelsea manager wins the CL then sacked a few months later which would be bugs to most people if it happened to them in-game).

There's an 'us and them' entrenched thinking in these forums. That won't change ever. Both camps are responsible for it, but it's no biggie is it. The only thing that matters is how much you enjoy/hate the game.

[tieio]

Usually what I find most interesting about a lot of those people who complain about a lack of realism is that they do not, in fact, know what is realistic.

That's always the most interesting.

And funny.

Like, for example, the old chestnut - "My team had 30 shots on goal and didn't score, but they only had one shot on goal and scored!"

It's almost as if Reep were in the room. Quantity has nothing to do with quality! Of course, for me, the hilarity factor increases tenfold if they add "It happens all the time, not just occasionally!"

The funny thing about it is that they think that's not realistic. But if I think back over the years, I can think of many a team lead by a rubbish tactician squandering chance after chance after chance, hitting the post and the bar and whatnot dozens of times. Indeed, this actually also happens to teams with good tacticians as well, so you could argue that FM is unrealistic in the sense that if you get the tactics right, generally you do actually score a fair amount of goals - Liverpool under Rafa Benitez towards the end of his time in charge found the exact opposite can happen and reality still be utterly realistic.

You think it is funny, but not every player should have to be Bill Shankly to get results that they are happy with. I personally find it to be completely ridiculous that you accept these games as normal results and realistic simply because it has happened in real life. The amount of people who are tactical 'geniuses' is slim, and despite the fact I like to think I am fair at making tactics, I would still think that an average player should be able to do decent without having to worry about losing 0-1 after having 30 shots for against 1. This should not be accepted as realistic, this is the sort of thing that will deter new players quickly. The elitist attitude about such things has no place, in MY opinion, for whatever it is worth. What you are saying essentially here is one must become an expert at FM tactics in order to avoid such results because they are, in fact, far too common in this game currently.

It may need even people that people expect too much but that we live in a bit of a "complain" society. In general, most people try to blame others for their own mistakes or failures. I used to always blame the match engine when I had a poor tactic or such. Since changing my mindset since FM11, I realise if I am losing, I am doing something wrong.

I do believe it is a bit of both, in reality. It is a game; it is not real life, and some people just want to blame the game for their own mistakes.

While This post is true to a great degree, it must be accepted that sometimes your tactics are not working because of a flaw in the game. This means you should change your tactics, according to some, rather tha play a tactic that does not work with the current ME, but some also believe that they should not have to change their tactic to adapt to a bug in the game... while none is really wrong, it is easy to see after this patch there are far more happy people who can actually play the tactic they were using before this patch and suddenly, it works... was it their tactic? or was it the issues of say, FB's standing still? This is a debate that is obviously going on and has many different opinions, and on yours, I say this; yes, one should take ownership of their failures if their tactic is not working and try to find a new and better way to play... IF it is in fact their tactic, which it isn't always, the real challenge comes down to knowing if it is indeed what you have done or if there is in fact some underlying issue in the game that is making your set-up fail. All I have seen is two mind-sets on this, the ones who think you should change your tactic to adapt to the flaws and the ones who believe the flaws should be fixed so they can use their tactic successfully. As I said, the real challenge is in recognizing what is you and what is the game. It is a shame some simply blame the game for their flaws but it also a shame some are blamed for a lack of tactical knowledge when there ARE flaws.

[Soccer]

There's one thing I don't quite understand - why do people keep wanting a 'harder' game, and then complain when they cannot beat the game because it is too hard?

In my point of view, the best game is one which you find to be most balanced and are able to derive the most enjoyment from. A game can never be fully realistic - if it's reasonably close to real football, I think that's good enough.

[mojojojo101]

There's one thing I don't quite understand - why do people keep wanting a 'harder' game, and then complain when they cannot beat the game because it is too hard?

Because that's what gamers do, they say they want something and then when they get it, say they actually wanted the complete opposite... I know of no game where this isn't the case...

[Kojak123]

Also, I guarantee that almost every single user on this forum will have at some point encountered a Triple-A title which was buggy as hell upon release. I know I have, multiple times, and if giant companies like EA, or Ubisoft, or dozens of others, can't iron out all of the bugs in their titles before release, how exactly is a small developer like SI, working on a game as complex as FM, going to be able to do so?

Who ever thinks that FM was "buggy" upon release should go and try Sim City. That game was released 9 months ago and still has more gamebreaking bugs than the last 5 FM had together on release day...

[milnerpoint]

Never mind GTA that had a budget bigger than a lot of movies, and still its taken 7/8 patches to get the online part of it working, not to mention the ingame bugs, SI do pretty good in this respect.

FM is in a very unique position i dont think many other games are in, where we can directly compare it to the reality we are living. No other game, outwith full simulators, have this issue to contend with, so bugs in FM seems worse than in others because we can look at them and go "oh that wouldnt happen in reality", there is obviously nothing SI can do about this but carry on as they have been doing.

[SurferJames]

You can't compare gta to a sports game and also the budget used is way different. First of all people expect more and more each year and this down to fact each year sports interactive bring out a new

Fm which for me is remarkable in its own right, for me I just expect game play well and vast database.

[Bracken]

Never mind GTA that had a budget bigger than a lot of movies, and still its taken 7/8 patches to get the online part of it working, not to mention the ingame bugs, SI do pretty good in this respect.

FM is in a very unique position i dont think many other games are in, where we can directly compare it to the reality we are living. No other game, outwith full simulators, have this issue to contend with, so bugs in FM seems worse than in others because we can look at them and go "oh that wouldnt happen in reality", there is obviously nothing SI can do about this but carry on as they have been doing.

I think this is a really important point about sports games, it's one of the very few arena's in gaming in which you can compare it to real life from your own experience, and not only that, football is so subjective that it's impossible for the game to every be perfect for everyone. It's also one of the few games that is even seeking to mirror real life, most games are simply an escape from it.

[milnerpoint]

I think this is a really important point about sports games, it's one of the very few arena's in gaming in which you can compare it to real life from your own experience, and not only that, football is so subjective that it's impossible for the game to every be perfect for everyone. It's also one of the few games that is even seeking to mirror real life, most games are simply an escape from it.

There is also another point me and a friend were discussing the other night.

As you say football is so subjective, and the game is designed by a team of people, who, whilst trying to be as objective as possible, will still have their own views on football and how it is played, so the game is never ever going to follow the exact train of thought of every person. I really dont think there is another game out there like FM that can be so directly related to reality, it makes the job SI are doing even more impressive at times.

[Kojak123]

... the game is never ever going to follow the exact train of thought of every person...

It doesn't have to follow every persons train of thought. Just mine

And no, I'm not egocentric

[scott MUFC]

I expect the game to behave as closely to real football as possible.

[milnerpoint]

Based on your perception of football tho, i may view a game of football very differently to you.

[scott MUFC]

not perception, I expect a top defender to defend, a wing back to run down the wings supporting the wingers, I expect creative midfielders to be creative.

I dont expect 3 goals in 3 games from Michael Carrick, or Tom Huddlestone chipping the keeper from outside the area, while top strikers fail.

I expect Man Utd to play like Man Utd.

[milnerpoint]

Exactly my point, it is perception of what you believe football to be like.

[tieio]

Exactly my point, it is perception of what you believe football to be like.

And how does this perception differ? Simple, upbringing. If you grow up watching the game in England your view will be much different than one who grows up watching it in Brazil or Argentina because the way it is played is very different. It also comes down to what team you watch the most and what era you watched the game from most. So many things contribute to this differentiating perception. There are a few things though that should be static among all footballer and fans perceptions, like, a round ball and in most cases, high scores are rare. I am sure the people discussing (debating?) this will add more.

[Chao Yang]

Your perception of football will translate directly into how you build your tactics. When your tactics don't work, maybe a tweak to your perceptions need to happen.

Much like in real life and the slow death of the Libero, tactics evolve, even if it is only within the microcosm of the game itself since AI coaches have their own tactical biases.

[x42bn6]

There's nothing wrong with high expectations. The higher the expectations, the greater the drive for a better game.

Keep those high expectations. This is your "job" as a fan.

[Anubis]

There's a reason FM has no competition. The ME is incredibly complex and sophisticated and it'd take other developers many years to get close. Even EA with their vast wealth and resources couldn't manage it, and then there's the huge database we have which no other developer could match. Yet its still not enough for some people, they whine about the ME not perfectly replicating real life. Its such a ridiculous expectation due to the complexity of coding intelligent behaviour. Millions is spent each year on research and development in to computer A.I and its still miles off human intelligence, but FM has to try and code 22 players individually "thinking". While I'm not in the habit of coming on this forum and moaning about the people who moan, a small handful of the spoiilt posters on here make me quite angry due to their sense of entitlement. Its been the same for years but it seems to get worse as time goes on. Its a case of the more we get the more people want. Its the same for all games though.

The only reason is the market, no one is going to invest lots of money to the product which will not pay itself.

When we speaking about EA... Look at Fifa. How it was and looked 10 years ago and where they are now.

Now look at FM, how it evolved since 2005. Almost the same. The biggest change every year is the UI.

Or look at any game, fps, rpg, tps..10 years ago /Far cry 1/ and now /Crysis 3, BF4/

And remember, Bus simulator, Demolition simulator, Truck Simulator, Farming simulator etc have no competition too.. Are they so incredibly complex and sophisicated to develop too? No. No big profits, no big developer.

[dan99]

Now look at FM, how it evolved since 2005. Almost the same. The biggest change every year is the UI.

If you think the biggest change in ten years is the UI you clearly don't pay attention to the ME.

[milnerpoint]

Or anything else in the game at all, FM has changed massively in the last 8 years.

[forameuss]

There's a reason FM has no competition. The ME is incredibly complex and sophisticated and it'd take other developers many years to get close. Even EA with their vast wealth and resources couldn't manage it, and then there's the huge database we have which no other developer could match. Yet its still not enough for some people, they whine about the ME not perfectly replicating real life. Its such a ridiculous expectation due to the complexity of coding intelligent behaviour. Millions is spent each year on research and development in to computer A.I and its still miles off human intelligence, but FM has to try and code 22 players individually "thinking". While I'm not in the habit of coming on this forum and moaning about the people who moan, a small handful of the spoiilt posters on here make me quite angry due to their sense of entitlement. Its been the same for years but it seems to get worse as time goes on. Its a case of the more we get the more people want. Its the same for all games though.

The only reason is the market, no one is going to invest lots of money to the product which will not pay itself.

When we speaking about EA... Look at Fifa. How it was and looked 10 years ago and where they are now.

Now look at FM, how it evolved since 2005. Almost the same. The biggest change every year is the UI.

Or look at any game, fps, rpg, tps..10 years ago /Far cry 1/ and now /Crysis 3, BF4/

And remember, Bus simulator, Demolition simulator, Truck Simulator, Farming simulator etc have no competition too.. Are they so incredibly complex and sophisicated to develop too? No. No big profits, no big developer.

Absolute rubbish. SmurfDude is absolutely right in saying that the ME is the reason there is no competition. It has been in development for 20 years in one way or another - how exactly does a company go up against that? You can't just fire people at the problem, in this case 100 monkeys on 100 typewriters aren't going to write Shakespeare. There's a reason only PaulC really knows the ME inside out. To do properly, you're probably talking about a small team of four or five, and you're up against a company with 100% market share and a 20 year head start. That's EXACTLY why there's no competition.

How you've managed to compare something like truck simulator to FM is beyond me

[TioPatinhax]

But is FM14 really that different from FM13?

[daherlihy]

... IMO, this community is a breath of fresh air in comparison to other football video gaming communities!

[Glenn Douglas]

I think its a great game, everything evolves over time. Im sure lots of things have knock on effect when changes to the ME are made. The people behind who make changes, do consult some ex-professionals and coaches about it, like player movements and tactical aspects in the ME. The game has had me hooked since 1994, long may it continue...