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llama3

Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED

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Im currently managing stoke city. I have not much idea what to do.

I want my team to play much air ball, then I sat deep, and playing counter.

on wide player, since I use 4-4-2, I have 2 wide player.

my left winger is etherington, I dont know which one best ,made him winger or wide midfield.since he lack of pace,I put him on wide player isntead, so I could use your second combination of dual wide men.

But I have no idea,should I put my left back as wing back,or full backs?

my right winger is pennant or arnautovic (if arnautovic,then he is at AMR position,does this would mean something?) so my right back would be full back-support duty to give cover in the back

then,should I ask my team to play wider or sit narrower? I read somewhere playing wider could give enemy much space to attack us.but play narrow, would my strikers receive enough crosses?

and about attackers,still not clear.which one should i use, AMC FC combination, or both as FC? all sems good combination,since I have crocuh as target man, then the creator could be ireland,as amc ,or walters, as FC ..

what is engeanche?I didnt clear for it..

help me please.thanks so much

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There are a lot of ambiguous questions there, so what are you currently doing with your team and I can help you from there? Otherwise I am pretty much just naming you a set of roles and duties to make your team work.

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I just want to improve my tactical knowledge to help my team winning things.

so, I confuse, wheter put my leftback, as full back, or as wing back,that is the first question

then the second question, Im asking the difference between winger, in mr and amr position.

for last question , Im asking about strikers combination. one of my striker is target man, so I confuse about the other.should he be amc or fc?

and I also ask what is enghance

thanks

then,for third question, Im asking, because I dont know, what to choose, between play wider, play narrower, or didnt set them on TI

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Adsuperjenius it is all still too confused.

Etherington is a Wide Midfielder in your set up, but you don't state what Duty. In simple terms, that suits a Wing Back behind. Wing Backs are usually employed in systems without a dedicated Winger in front of them.

Wingers from ML/R will contribute more defensively that those at AML/R, without much impact on the attacking contribution.

You need to know how you want you to play. People can't say whether you should use a striker or AMC alongside a Target Man, as it is up to you. Both can work, but it's up to you to decide you you want players to link up.

An Enganche is a playmaker in the AMC line who theoretically is less mobile than a Trequartista.

Play Wider / Narrower is again up to you, You need to define a playing style.

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about etherington, I dont know what duty should I do on him..

About what I want to play , I want to play using tall player. so rely on set pieces, and direct ball. I have good AMC, but also have some good strikers, bring me confusion wheter using AMC or dual strikers

and I still cannot know the difference between advanced playmaker, trequarista, and enghanche

I dont know should I play wider or narrower. people says, play wider good if we use winger, like my style,rely on crossing, but, It would cost so many space to enemy for exploit..

I dont know much about tactic ,thats why I almost confused what to do :(

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Well Etherington is fairly versatile, so as long as it is a wide role - then whatever fits your system. In this case, a Winger (as for duty, that depends on the rest of the team to pick the right one) as crosses into the box are a big part of using tall players and a direct style.

A 4-4-2 system suits the aforementioned style very well. If you play with a Target Man, he needs someone close to him to link with and pick up the knock downs. This can still work with other systems very well. But if in doubt, start 4-4-2 and experiment from there. The key to 4-4-2 is having 5 good partnerships - your central defenders, central midfielders, your 2 sets of full back and wingers, plus, your strike partnership.

The differences are: The AP does more defensively (work rate, tracking etc), but has less mobility. He cannot roam freely, and has more positional discipline. The Trequartista roams more freely, with no defensive responsibility (but can still be a useful defensive outlet or pick up interceptions) and can drift wide, whereas the Enganche moves around, but in a more central area, not moving wide.

Play wider or narrower only affects your team when with the ball. So play wider will see your team utilise the flanks a little more. Probably useful if you want the 4-4-2, crosses into the box style discussed. This won't penalise your defensively much at all.

Does this help you a little more?

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So im about to go into a game with a couple of mates in the championship and was thinking of going wigan. Just read ur OP and its great, really made a lot of sense to me in footballing terms.

So with Wigan I was looking to play a 4-1-2-2-1

Balanced with either controlling or attacking philosophy as I feel im a stronger team the league. Set up as follows:

GK;Defend

FB:S CB;D CB/BPD;D FB:S

HB:D

CM/AP:S CM:A

W:A W:A

CF:S

It is 2 wide wingers btw couldn't edit my post to show it better haha

Now my question is am I better having a winger on support with a more attacking fullback or will I have a balance as my striker is on a support duty so the wingers can both be on attack without being isolated? I've never really used a CF at all because I've thought only top players could pull it off but in my system I want my striker to have a goalscoring influence aswell so am reluctant to use a DLF but was looking at the possibility of a Treq but not sure how that would influence the rest of the team

Any feedback would be awesome

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A CF is a great choice for the lone forward in the system. As for the width - it is a bit symmetrical and easy to defend against. A W(a) will drive to byline and get a cross in (byline crosses suit drilled efforts to near post - so who is attacking these?). The HB works well at making a centre back pair a back 3 when the full backs push forward. However, your full backs aren't pushing on which can lead to your HB trying to drop deeper, giving up space in central midfield where you don't have a linking player in there to cover the space left. Hope this makes sense.

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I am in awe of your knowledge for the game.

Thank you for this guide

It has a long way to go, but thanks. Feel free to ask here for advice if you need it. I notice you are new, so welcome aboard.

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You got any specific players in mind for the system?

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starting a new save with Milan and i wanna play with narrow diamond, dont wanna try any other formation,i will built my team according to that shape.

my first thoughts

sk/s

wbr/s cd cd wbl/s

hb

cms/b2b advp/s

ss

dlf/s af

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Howdy, great thead, I have some questions that are not tied directly to any set of mine in particular, and these questions are burning in the back of my head:

will Play out of defence, like u said in the OP, used from standard to overload, hinder fast transitions?

the ap-s or if-s on the flank wont get into the area until late, would adding 'get further foward' make them more of a threat? or that would make them just congest the box? (in a 4231)

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starting a new save with Milan and i wanna play with narrow diamond, dont wanna try any other formation,i will built my team according to that shape.

my first thoughts

sk/s

wbr/s cd cd wbl/s

hb

cms/b2b advp/s

ss

dlf/s af

The essential issues with a diamond midfield are:

  • The lone Wide Men - they need to get forward enough. Yours do provide the width, although they will arrive slightly later in the move.
  • The AMC getting isolated. The AMC links play and needs to be able to be involved. As a SS he needs the room to move into. Nothing wrong with a SS at AMC in the system, as long as he has space to attack. This may prove a slight problem, the DLF and AF won't move far laterally...
  • ...which leads me on to lateral movement. With a centre-heavy system, you need some varied movement. You have some, but not huge amounts of movement from deep. Those that do often arrive later in the move (BBM, AP, WB x 2) - so you have few people breaking from deep positions ahead of the ball. You also have nobody in attacking areas pulling wide or drawing space, save for potentially the AF. So a touch more movement needed in there somewhere. But you have the general basis of the system there.

Howdy, great thead, I have some questions that are not tied directly to any set of mine in particular, and these questions are burning in the back of my head:

will Play out of defence, like u said in the OP, used from standard to overload, hinder fast transitions?

the ap-s or if-s on the flank wont get into the area until late, would adding 'get further foward' make them more of a threat? or that would make them just congest the box? (in a 4231)

Thanks,

It can do yes, if you want to get the ball forward quickly, from defence to attack then it will hinder it. But if your defence has options and the right personnel able to receive the ball in midfield, then you can still get quick transitions from there.

Depends on the rest of the system and their movement. Kind of thing that might work in certain matches, but not in others.

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thank u, learning so much!Also in the OP tactic, if I understand right, u use-for pressing-

control + higher line + offiside trap

OR

control + much higher + hassle + offiside trap

so if u wanna hassle the line must be much higher then?

also in the same note, tempo affects pressing right?

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I am cautious about the use of hassle opponents, so I only use it with a very high line to make sure the players don't have to cover as much ground. Personal preference.

As for tempo - I have no idea!

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I am cautious about the use of hassle opponents, so I only use it with a very high line to make sure the players don't have to cover as much ground. Personal preference.

As for tempo - I have no idea!

So you would only use hassle opponents with "A very high line"? Would you use "Get stuck in" without using "A high line"? And tempo would depend on your passing style?

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I know others use Hassle successfully with lines that aren't so high, or with Counter mentalities etc. But it is a personal preference. I don't like get stuck in, as I am a massive fan of team shape and positioning - and getting stuck in is the opposite of this.

Tempo is linked to urgency - so all forms of possession. Not just how quickly they make the pass, but also things like taking on players, making runs etc.

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2014-08-02_00001_zpsdefffa22.jpg

Can you give me your advice on this tactic for possession based tactic?

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I have nothing to offer. Looks pretty good!

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I have nothing to offer. Looks pretty good!

OK cheers- even the low tempo? If I go more attacking, I change to attack, high tempo direct passing?

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I am cautious about the use of hassle opponents, so I only use it with a very high line to make sure the players don't have to cover as much ground. Personal preference.

As for tempo - I have no idea!

oh ok I get that now, I tried the much higher line before, with and without hassle, and I didnt had the eye for the game that I have now. Anyways still evolving and learnig everyday, thanx llama3.

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OK cheers- even the low tempo? If I go more attacking, I change to attack, high tempo direct passing?

Yes, low tempo is good for possession-based build up play. If you switch to an attacking strategy the tempo naturally increases with it.

oh ok I get that now, I tried the much higher line before, with and without hassle, and I didnt had the eye for the game that I have now. Anyways still evolving and learnig everyday, thanx llama3.

No worries man.

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Where I am struggling now is i'm not scoring enough and conceding easy goals

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Weakness of the system - leaves space in behind, especially with a BWM(D) too. Depends on your in-game decision making etc though how to deal with it.

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how do box to box do defence?

how if we have no player do protecting the defence? like place 2 cm as bwm and btb?

This is answered specifically in the first post, and you have answered it yourself in another thread!

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Weakness of the system - leaves space in behind, especially with a BWM(D) too. Depends on your in-game decision making etc though how to deal with it.

This is still something I need to work on.. Would you advice playing a DM instead of the AM?

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This is answered specifically in the first post, and you have answered it yourself in another thread!

cool down man

I cannot find explanation about defense working about box to box player. I had read it twice. I only found about ball winner work there.

at another thread, I ask how if BWM combined with BTB,would it cost our defence, you answer no ,without any explanation, so I ask again,since the guide just say,btb is a runner,not somebody who win the ball,not somebody to hold the ball, and ball winer need partner who sit deep

if you dont like me,its okay. I just hope nothing personal happen here.thanks

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This is still something I need to work on.. Would you advice playing a DM instead of the AM?

Well then it is a different system. Might be useful in certain matches. With a team set up like that you need to play high up the pitch though for certain.

cool down man

I cannot find explanation about defense working about box to box player. I had read it twice. I only found about ball winner work there.

at another thread, I ask how if BWM combined with BTB,would it cost our defence, you answer no ,without any explanation, so I ask again,since the guide just say,btb is a runner,not somebody who win the ball,not somebody to hold the ball, and ball winer need partner who sit deep

if you dont like me,its okay. I just hope nothing personal happen here.thanks

He isn't having a go - but he has pointed out you've answered it on another thread. You are asking questions in different threads, you need to keep it together to keep it all relevant.

The tactics creator description gives an idea of how he defends - helps hassle opponents defensively, before getting into the box late offensively. The Box to Box Midfielder can win the ball, but is not solely a ball-winner. I would always be cautious of a BWM & BBM - there is little inherent deep cover. This is less of an issue in a high line, with your team pressing aggressively, as it shuts off the space anyway, but if your team stands off and lets opponents attack that space it is a big problem.

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well, I knew that I ask in multiple thread. but I made sure, that is either the question are different, or simmilar but not clear answer.. just trying to made things clear

thanks,now I do understand how btb do defence.

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Well Etherington is fairly versatile, so as long as it is a wide role - then whatever fits your system. In this case, a Winger (as for duty, that depends on the rest of the team to pick the right one) as crosses into the box are a big part of using tall players and a direct style.

A 4-4-2 system suits the aforementioned style very well. If you play with a Target Man, he needs someone close to him to link with and pick up the knock downs. This can still work with other systems very well. But if in doubt, start 4-4-2 and experiment from there. The key to 4-4-2 is having 5 good partnerships - your central defenders, central midfielders, your 2 sets of full back and wingers, plus, your strike partnership.

The differences are: The AP does more defensively (work rate, tracking etc), but has less mobility. He cannot roam freely, and has more positional discipline. The Trequartista roams more freely, with no defensive responsibility (but can still be a useful defensive outlet or pick up interceptions) and can drift wide, whereas the Enganche moves around, but in a more central area, not moving wide.

Play wider or narrower only affects your team when with the ball. So play wider will see your team utilise the flanks a little more. Probably useful if you want the 4-4-2, crosses into the box style discussed. This won't penalise your defensively much at all.

Does this help you a little more?

well, in my system, I put either striker partner or AMC ,so hopefully my target man know where he should knock the ball

about trequarista,AP, and enganche,this i what I understand,please correct me if Im wrong

AP and Enghance are playmaker that spend time at central area. while AP is defensive version of enghance

and trequarista are really free playmaker,that roam everywhere, like ozil at real madrid?

thanks for clearing me about width.so I now understand that I should play wider, as my player are good wingers.

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As has been discussed in your other thread. Playmakers attract the ball. Which means your team will look to pass through them - this is precisely counter-intuitive to a direct, wingers & target man style. If you want to play more intricate play in the final third - use playmakers etc, if you want direct passing from deep and the flanks, put him up front instead as a striker to partner your target man. A playmaker is completely counter-productive in this system. A Target Man without a partner is isolated, and while he may win headers, he will simply lose a lot of second balls as he cannot retain the ball well enough without support to help him.

The difference between the 3 playmakers are:

Trequartista has a completely free licence, and is quite mobile (so moves wide a lot too), the Enganche has free licence, but is less mobile, so stays slightly more central, the Advanced Playmaker fits into a tactical system a bit better, but has more restricted movement.

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Hi guys i have a 'problem' i was hoping someone could help with, i've been playing with Bayern for 6 seasons now and i've had good success during those which it ain't much hard with their money and team so i have one last goal before i move, to get the striker on my tactic to score more, this season he managed to grab best scorer on champions with 8 goals, on the league he has a 0.87 rate of goals per game which well i guess it's good but i feel he could do more.

The problem here i feel is the lack of space, usually the striker even when he scores, he only shot about at most 3 times the whole game, the tactic pushes quite high and it's the foundation of my whole defense, i defend by constricting every and any space on their midfield forcing mistakes and regaining the ball fairly easily, this had led me to only 41 goals conceded in the last 3 seasons, this season beating all records scoring 125 and conceding only 10. So the problem here is not really 'scoring' but who's scoring them. I guess my mindset is stuck on the prolific strikers era on the past fm's.

Anyway, any idea how to get more chances to the striker? I've tried pretty much any combination, although somehow i feel having a support role on the striker hurts me defensively. Here's the tactic and some stats.

The tactic : Lately i've been putting instructions on both playmakers to roam, no big changes were noticed unfortunally, also tried a BBM paired with a DLP/D but didn't noticed any big difference on linking the game to attack while it seemed to hurt possession and my defense a bit.

Untitled.jpg

The stats against a weaker team where everything went right, as you can see the striker chances aren't much next to the playmaker, he actually shot more than usual this game, i'm okay with the IF/A scoring is what he's there for, but the playmaker scores too much when he should assist, getting him as support seems to reduce the chances for everyone. The stats were 42 shots, 23 on target and 59% possession against their 1 shot on target out of 2.

Untitled2.jpg

This one i had a BBM.

Untitled3.jpg

Here's a more decent game, champions finals, 8 shots out of 20, again most (half chances) in this case goes for the playmaker instead of the striker, also using a DLP/S this time with roaming.

Untitled4.jpg

Untitled5.jpg

Is this fixable? Getting the striker to have more chances instead of the adv playmaker? I'd appreciate any help. Thank you.

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I would like to see the Advanced Forward's attributes, PPM's & player instructions please. That should shed some more light.

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Here's tobin, i try to keep a balance between strikers being Tobin the more strong, target like and Correa the mobile agile one, Tobin is usually the main striker due to his heading attribute which allows him to take more advantage of the left flank, his ppm's are 'like to beat offside', 'plays one-twos', and 'tries first time shots', tried to make him also place his shots but coaches disagree :(, they have both the solo instruction of moving into channels.

Untitled.jpg

The 'sub', he was a natural amc which i trained also as striker has 'runs with the ball down right' (soon to be removed i hope), 'plays one twos', 'likes to lob the keeper' and 'atempts overhead kicks'

Untitled2.jpg

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Well a few things. Tobin is strong and has good heading, but he actually looks more suited to being a "mobile" type of forward. Perhaps his supply from the left flank isn't helping as he isn't the tallest and probably loses a fair chunk of headers at the far post against centre-backs. Correa is very similar, very mobile and looks quite effective in the role you've picked. Aside from a slight change in Gotze's role to move him out of the may and provide some alternative angles not much to suggest. Also worth noting you could swap the DLP & CM(D) around - leaving the DLP to potentially play in Muller directly - which could lead to Muller linking up with Tobin earlier.

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Hmmm seems reasonable, i'll give it a try, do you think the CM/D will still be able to link with the winger?. Also what is that change in role i could do on gotze to make him out of the way? On a support role he arrives at the box later giving more space for the striker, but most of the games i've put him on support less chances were created overall as i guess he drops too deep.

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The CM(D) will still be an open passing option, but Gotze still will be too. Gotze as a Trequartista is the 1 in my head right now. I know pressing issues though may be affecting your inclination to want to try that.

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Indeed, not only that but since the Treq doesn't defend much and attacking wise i haven't noticed much difference i think it's safer to keep the playmaker as he helps defending a bit. I'm gonna try the midfield switch and i'll let you know, appreciate the thoughts and hopefully i'll get a more prolific striker, i might try Correa as main this last season, but Tobin was so expensive :\

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Frankly both look outstanding, so I am sure that it will work out

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Really good update llama3 :thup:

For anyone who hasn't already done so - please download the PDF from the opening post and enjoy your bedtime reading!

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something interesting. anchor man ,as holding role

I grew up to understand anchor man as water carrier.I read on local newsspaper, its gatusso role. when the team attacked,he is the first man who stop the attack, when his team do attack,he is the first man who create the attack.

Then I play FM,and after reading this guide, I tought that might be wrong. since the role described above are closer to ball winner, for defensife , and whole are closer to regista. none of that role suit for holding role

so why does anchor man called "water carrier"? how it do work at defence?

also about player role, the final part of ebook,several question I had made

1.There are no very old examples? I mean, there are not any example contemporary for regista and half back. I think this role mainly hapenn at very old era.. maybe good if you pick player from 30 ,40, or 50 era, while the team still play 2-3-5, there is regista there. as in 3 midfield, 2 protect wide position ,and 1 do everything,defending and creating chances. and in 3-2-5 ,the central defender isnt actual central defender,its halback.the cm who pressed to back.

2.wide target man example is interesting. I see jonathan walters there,while stoke had always have striker in st position.like crouch or kenwyne jones. do they play 2 target man? also for lukaku, do he play in wide position?

3.Limited full back. I see smalling do several overlapping at MU. even he got shot to goal from inside box. maybe he isnt limited full backs?

but, Im still new analyizer,so forgive me if I was wrong

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Frankly both look outstanding, so I am sure that it will work out

Firstly and foremost, nice update on the combinations m8, hope to see more of it for the next year's edition as well! :applause:

I've also did the change on the midfield, the IF is getting more into play but since the adv playmaker runs into the box he passes to him instead of the striker, perhaps on the next FM strikers will take pass priority over playmakers inside the box, although sometimes the playmaker is just the best passing option so i'm not really sure how it works. Either way, thank you again, and nice work!

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starting a new save with Milan and i wanna play with narrow diamond, dont wanna try any other formation,i will built my team according to that shape.

my first thoughts

sk/s

wbr/s cd cd wbl/s

hb

cms/b2b advp/s

ss

dlf/s af

The essential issues with a diamond midfield are:

  • The lone Wide Men - they need to get forward enough. Yours do provide the width, although they will arrive slightly later in the move.
  • The AMC getting isolated. The AMC links play and needs to be able to be involved. As a SS he needs the room to move into. Nothing wrong with a SS at AMC in the system, as long as he has space to attack. This may prove a slight problem, the DLF and AF won't move far laterally...
  • ...which leads me on to lateral movement. With a centre-heavy system, you need some varied movement. You have some, but not huge amounts of movement from deep. Those that do often arrive later in the move (BBM, AP, WB x 2) - so you have few people breaking from deep positions ahead of the ball. You also have nobody in attacking areas pulling wide or drawing space, save for potentially the AF. So a touch more movement needed in there somewhere. But you have the general basis of the system there.

llama has provided some good advice here but I'd just like to add a couple of points.

I would change the DR and DL to CWBs. They will provide that extra threat getting forward and are crucial to the diamond formation working. Just make sure you have players with plenty of stamina as they need to cover a lot of ground.

I play my AMC as an SS and he is a massive goalscoring threat. To give him the space he needs, one of my strikers is an F9, who will drop deep and aim to take a defender with him. The other striker plays as an AF but also with a PI to "move wide with ball". This seems to give the necessary lateral movement to allow the SS to flourish.

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Hello guys i have one question for you !

if i play 3-2-2-1-2 formation (3xdc; wbr; wbl; 2xcm; amc; 2xst) and amc is enganche attack can i have two strikers rols attack ???

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Really good update llama3 :thup:

For anyone who hasn't already done so - please download the PDF from the opening post and enjoy your bedtime reading!

Thank you :)

something interesting. anchor man ,as holding role

I grew up to understand anchor man as water carrier.I read on local newsspaper, its gatusso role. when the team attacked,he is the first man who stop the attack, when his team do attack,he is the first man who create the attack.

Then I play FM,and after reading this guide, I tought that might be wrong. since the role described above are closer to ball winner, for defensife , and whole are closer to regista. none of that role suit for holding role

so why does anchor man called "water carrier"? how it do work at defence?

also about player role, the final part of ebook,several question I had made

1.There are no very old examples? I mean, there are not any example contemporary for regista and half back. I think this role mainly hapenn at very old era.. maybe good if you pick player from 30 ,40, or 50 era, while the team still play 2-3-5, there is regista there. as in 3 midfield, 2 protect wide position ,and 1 do everything,defending and creating chances. and in 3-2-5 ,the central defender isnt actual central defender,its halback.the cm who pressed to back.

2.wide target man example is interesting. I see jonathan walters there,while stoke had always have striker in st position.like crouch or kenwyne jones. do they play 2 target man? also for lukaku, do he play in wide position?

3.Limited full back. I see smalling do several overlapping at MU. even he got shot to goal from inside box. maybe he isnt limited full backs?

but, Im still new analyizer,so forgive me if I was wrong

An Anchorman is quite disciplined and holds position a lot. The perfect example is Claude Makelele - simply sits in front of the defence and shields the centre backs.

I would not want to give an incorrect example, and I know very little about players from those times, save what inverting the pyramid taught me!

Walters & Lukaku normally play centrally, but sometimes play wide as a wide Target Man.

Maybe, but you're taking it a bit too literally.

Firstly and foremost, nice update on the combinations m8, hope to see more of it for the next year's edition as well! :applause:

I've also did the change on the midfield, the IF is getting more into play but since the adv playmaker runs into the box he passes to him instead of the striker, perhaps on the next FM strikers will take pass priority over playmakers inside the box, although sometimes the playmaker is just the best passing option so i'm not really sure how it works. Either way, thank you again, and nice work!

Thank you and hope the team is playing well still.

Just wanted to congratulate you on a brilliantly helpful piece of writing.

Cheers man :)

llama has provided some good advice here but I'd just like to add a couple of points.

I would change the DR and DL to CWBs. They will provide that extra threat getting forward and are crucial to the diamond formation working. Just make sure you have players with plenty of stamina as they need to cover a lot of ground.

I play my AMC as an SS and he is a massive goalscoring threat. To give him the space he needs, one of my strikers is an F9, who will drop deep and aim to take a defender with him. The other striker plays as an AF but also with a PI to "move wide with ball". This seems to give the necessary lateral movement to allow the SS to flourish.

Really good advice. Top notch.

Hello guys i have one question for you !

if i play 3-2-2-1-2 formation (3xdc; wbr; wbl; 2xcm; amc; 2xst) and amc is enganche attack can i have two strikers rols attack ???

Yes, but only if they do different things. Consider the players movement, do they drift, roam, etc?

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