Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED

[ambi!]

It all looks a bit static in there. The Winger stays wide playing early crosses, but nobody is in the box early in the move, the forward is trying to come deep instead. I'm not convinced of the logic there. The DLF drops into the AMC's way.

Good point, and similar to the recommendation that Jean0987654321 makes. If I change the striker to CF (A), I would normally change the AMC to Adv. PM (Support). Any tips on how to set up the two central midfielders then? An attacking role for one of them would increase the issue that the 4-2-3-1 naturally has with the gap between the central midfielders and defense. Or would an AMC plus Striker both on attack work fine?

[Reedy_1988]

I'm looking to embark on a career with Bradford City using a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond with the following TI's & roles: *I havent had time to begin this save yet because of my work schedule so this is me purely just asking for advice, opinions...

Attacking/Flexible

More Direct Passing/Pump Ball Into Box, Hit Early Crosses, Get Stuck In

GK: Sweeper Keeper (S)

RB: Wing Back (S)

CB: Centre Back (D)

CB: Centre Back (D)

LB: Complete Wing Back (A)

DM: Anchor Man (D)

RCM: Centre Midfielder (A)

LCM: Centre Midfielder (S)

AM: Attacking Midfielder (S)

FW: Defensive Forward (S)

FW: Target Man (A)

On paper is their any obvious flaws in this system or with any of the TI's?

One potential concern for me i think could be will the supporting striker and AM in their current roles get in the right positions from the knockdowns provided by the Target Man?

[Jean0987654321]

I think you should use 2 CWBS instead of one. I also think it would make sense to make that AM an SS to balance out the formation as you have a defensive forward on hand. Everything else is fine

[llama3]

Jean's on the money with that one. Could also try an AM(A) instead of SS to try and get a bit more lateral movement. Wing Back's could work as they are, I would simply try that bit and see.

[kevhamster]

Thanks for the guide, Llama. It has helped me get a good understanding of how to build a system, and where I had been going wrong. I have just one question at the moment.

Your guide states that player mentalities on the flanks should be mixed up, so you have one support and attack in the back 4 and if you have two wide midfieldiers, these should be the opposite way round in midfield, so for example if you have your LB as attacking, your RB should be support, your LM should be support and RM attacking. Why is this?

It's just that point I'm curious about.

[llama3]

Thanks for the guide, Llama. It has helped me get a good understanding of how to build a system, and where I had been going wrong. I have just one question at the moment.

Your guide states that player mentalities on the flanks should be mixed up, so you have one support and attack in the back 4 and if you have two wide midfieldiers, these should be the opposite way round in midfield, so for example if you have your LB as attacking, your RB should be support, your LM should be support and RM attacking. Why is this?

It's just that point I'm curious about.

It's a recommendation, not a completely unbreakable rule. But it causes more directness on 1 flank, and natural overlaps on the other flank.

[kevhamster]

It's a recommendation, not a completely unbreakable rule. But it causes more directness on 1 flank, and natural overlaps on the other flank.

Fair enough! Thanks for the response. Great guide, by the way. It helped me to understand the minefield that is FM tactics. Hopefully the changes I've made to my system will reap some benefits.

[llama3]

I would recommend giving this a read: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423054-Lines-and-Diamonds-The-Tactician-s-Handbook-for-Football-Manager-2015-(Updated-with-Part-5)

[kevhamster]

I would recommend giving this a read: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423054-Lines-and-Diamonds-The-Tactician-s-Handbook-for-Football-Manager-2015-(Updated-with-Part-5)

I will definitely give that a read, thanks. I've just had to send my laptop off for repair so can't play at the moment, but will definitely give that a look once I am back in possession of my laptop.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hey,

I'm using a 4-4-2 with Bristol and I'm with doubts on the part of team instructions.

GK: GK Defend

RD: FB Support

CD: CD (Block (hold position&close down more) & Cover (hold position&close down less))

LF: FB Attack

RM: WM Attack

CMr: BWM Support

CMl: CM Defend

LM: WM Attack

STr: T Attack

STl: F9 Support

Team instructions:

- Control

- Flexible

- Short pass

- Work ball into box

- Play out of the defense

- Push higher up

- Be more discipline

I think that the team can play a possession football, but it's possible with a 442 to be a possession football?

What changes you would do, any advice?

[Jean0987654321]

I think you are better off using a 4-4-2 triangle if you want possession soccer. The triangle is already there for that. Also, Counter or Standard instead of Control

[llama3]

4-4-2 can play possession football, but the central midfield area is technically very limited, and you have both forwards dropping into the same space.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Thanks for the advice, and I will do a big change.

I will play direct style with counter attack.

For start I will use:

- Flexible

- Counter

- More direct pass

- Clear ball to flanks

- Stay on feet

- Higher tempo

- Be more discipline

GK Defend

FB Support

CD Defend

CD Defend

FB Support

WM Attack

BBM Supprt

DLP Defend

W Attack

AF Attack

DLF Support

[Jean0987654321]

Thanks for the advice, and I will do a big change.

I will play direct style with counter attack.

For start I will use:

- Flexible

- Counter

- More direct pass

- Clear ball to flanks

- Stay on feet

- Higher tempo

- Be more discipline

GK Defend

FB Support

CD Defend

CD Defend

FB Support

WM Attack

BBM Supprt

DLP Defend

W Attack

AF Attack

DLF Support

I don't think I would want "be more disciplined". As I explained in the counter attack thread (link), you do not want to completely strip your players of their creativity. You already have Balanced, so you do not need that TI. Also, you have too many guys on attack in my opinion. Maybe setting that WM (a) to W (s) or WM(s) or even DW (s) can help out there. Also you need some width on the right side there as the WM have freedom to cut inside. I would try a WB (s) right there (w/ the PI stay wider) and maybe on the other side to make overlapping runs with the W (a). Add another TI in "Play Wider" and "Get Stuck In". You do not want to invite too much pressure to your defense or else you'll leak some goals in

[pedromanuelpinto]

Thanks for the information.

I change the right FB S to WB A and the WM A to WM S with cut inside.

TI:

More direct

Clear ball to flanks

Run at defense

Play wider

Get stuck in

Higher tempo

Exploit flanks

The drop deeper i will se how my team behave.

[st. Vinny]

Hi Llama, I'm playing as Arsenal, 4-4-1-1, how do I create a if-s at ml position?

I know that wm-s is a good start, but I get my doubts in PIs, cut inside would be one for sure,

maybe dribble more, depending on the player,

but I'm not set on Get Further Foward

[djzdravkoni]

Bayern in 3-4-3 DM Wide formation

GK - Neuer Sweeper keeper (attack)

CDR - Boateng (Ball playing defender (stopper)

CDC - Benatia (Central defender (cover)

CDL - Badstuber (Ball playing defender (stopper)

WBR - Lahm (Complete wing back attack)

DMR - Schweinsteiger (Roaming playmaker support)

DML - Xabi Alonso (Regista support)

WBL - Alaba (Complete wing back attack)

AMR - Robben (Inside forward attack)

AML - Muller (Inside forward attack)

STC - Lewandowski (False nine support)

[Jean0987654321]

I guess you want feedback

Too many players on attack on the wings. I would maybe balance the roles out over there (eg. CWB on attack, Inside Forward on Support)

[llama3]

Hi Llama, I'm playing as Arsenal, 4-4-1-1, how do I create a if-s at ml position?

I know that wm-s is a good start, but I get my doubts in PIs, cut inside would be one for sure,

maybe dribble more, depending on the player,

but I'm not set on Get Further Foward

Looks sound, maybe sit narrower too

[messinho]

I wanna play 4-4-1-1, but I don't know which roles suits the best in AMC and forward position. Now i have something like this.

Sweeper Keeper (S)

FB (S) CD(D) CD(D) FB(A)

W(A) DLP(S) CM(D) W(S)

SS (A)

DLF (S)

Also I don't know I should set in team instructions - playing wingers or middle?

[Jean0987654321]

Looks good to me. I would "Play Wider" to take advantage of those Wingers

[messinho]

Thanks. I'm playing Fortuna Dusseldorf - one of the weakest teams in Bundesliga 17/18 (my first season in this club) Above is my first tactic.

What you think about more defensive - fluid counter-attack

Sweeper-keeper (S)

FB(A) CD(D) CD(D) FB(S)

REG(S) DP(D)

CM(A)

IF(A) IF(A)

DLF(S)

More freedom, higher tempo, short pass and playing wingers.

[Jean0987654321]

Counter-attacking soccer should be a disiplined and with the limited amount of freedom. I recommend taking a look at the counter attacking thread for more help

[TH-786]

Hey guys,

What roles would you recommend for a flat, forward three? Its working fairly well seeing as I have just beatMadrid in a friendly comprehensively, but I feel with the shots I get each game (30+) and sometimes inconsistent ratings for the rest, there could be a better combo/

I am setup as follows:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6u1x6rbznn7bs8/Screenshot%202015-07-26%2023.17.55.png?dl=0

[right_winger]

Hello everyone, I just got back to FM recently after a long break.

Llama3 - great stuff this guide! Has a lot of info presented in a very concise way and professionally presented. We can only hope you will find time for updates if necessary for future versions.

There is something that confuses me though. I play 4231 and it is advised to have the two CM as primarily "compact & defensive players". However in the examples at the end of the guide this formation has CM roles shown as CMd + BBMs. Would it not make more sense to use DLPs instead of BBM? To me the BBMs is not a holding player, unless I get something completely wrong.

I guess counter mentality should help central midfield stay compact too, am I right?

Also, while we are at it - is anything wrong with using CMd next to CMs with minor tweaks for both if necessary such as Close Down Less for CMd or both. This question relates to both options: as a pair or part of trio.

Another question is about the central defence: should the Covering CD play closer to the attacking FB/WB or to the supporting one, or it doesn't matter much?

[llama3]

A Box to Box Midfielder is not a holding player, but can play in a holding pair. He should still support attacks, but get back when you lose the ball.

A CM(D) & CM(S) is a good pairing for the midfield pair.

As for the defensive question - it's a fairly logical way of doing it.

[Chelski Shogun]

Hey guys,

Firstly thanks for the guide llama3. As a relative "newbie" to the tactical side of FM I found it very helpful, however I have a couple of questions for you to answer please.

1.) In defence my current tactic is a fairly basic 4-4-2 but when we're on the attack I want it to shift into a 4-2-3-1. I want my right-sided striker to drop into midfield and play as the #10 and my left-sided striker to play as the #9. So what combination is best for achieving this?

2.) In a 4-4-2 what midfield pairing is generally more effective? CM(S) and CM(D) or DLP(S) and CM(D)?

3.) Finally what do you think of my tactic so far?

Mentality/Team Shape/TIs: Undecided at the moment. I'll probably play a possession/pressing based game though.

GK: SK(D)

RB: FB(A)

CB: CD(D)

CB: CD(D)

LB: FB(S)

RM: WM(S)

CM: CM(D)

CM: CM(S) or DLP(S)

LM: WM(A)

ST: ?

ST: ?

[A_Sober_Paddy]

Hey all, looking for help. Playing in League of Ireland,( a mix of league 2 and 2 with a few players good enough for championship) i'm finding the balance difficult.

How does

Gk(d)

FB(s) LD (d) CD (d) FB(s)

BWM(d) DLP(d)

IF(a) AP(a) IF(a)

AF (a)

Control

Fluid

Narrow

Shorter passing

Stay On Feet

[llama3]

Hey guys,

Firstly thanks for the guide llama3. As a relative "newbie" to the tactical side of FM I found it very helpful, however I have a couple of questions for you to answer please.

1.) In defence my current tactic is a fairly basic 4-4-2 but when we're on the attack I want it to shift into a 4-2-3-1. I want my right-sided striker to drop into midfield and play as the #10 and my left-sided striker to play as the #9. So what combination is best for achieving this?

2.) In a 4-4-2 what midfield pairing is generally more effective? CM(S) and CM(D) or DLP(S) and CM(D)?

3.) Finally what do you think of my tactic so far?

Mentality/Team Shape/TIs: Undecided at the moment. I'll probably play a possession/pressing based game though.

GK: SK(D)

RB: FB(A)

CB: CD(D)

CB: CD(D)

LB: FB(S)

RM: WM(S)

CM: CM(D)

CM: CM(S) or DLP(S)

LM: WM(A)

ST: ?

ST: ?

Well if you want it to move into a 4-2-3-1 in possession, you would probably do better to have the right sided midfielder on a more attacking mentality. You can do this because the cautious central midfield will offer some cover. This means you can get both your wide men forward, as well as the full backs, if you have a solid base of a midfield. Regarding your striker conundrum - most Support - Attack pairings will work easily. A DLF/CF(S) with an AF/CF/P(A) an be quite effective.

[llama3]

Hey all, looking for help. Playing in League of Ireland,( a mix of league 2 and 2 with a few players good enough for championship) i'm finding the balance difficult.

How does

Gk(d)

FB(s) LD (d) CD (d) FB(s)

BWM(d) DLP(d)

IF(a) AP(a) IF(a)

AF (a)

Control

Fluid

Narrow

Shorter passing

Stay On Feet

You have no width on the flanks (Full Back - support behind IF(A) is rarely effective, as you play too narrow, with no outlet to recycle the ball). You have a poor mix of duties (all 4 advanced players are on attack duties), so you'll have little effective movement between the lines. I normally go for a 343 rule. 3 defend duties, 4 support duties, 3 attack duties - or similar. You can mix it up a touch. Finally a BWM is not a very disciplined player, which in that formation, in the midfield pair - he should be.

[A_Sober_Paddy]

Cheers I normally run 4-4-2 but the team I am has an amount of AM's.

Can you suggest alternatives to the the BWM and the inside forward, would wingers be a better option for balance

[Chelski Shogun]

You have no width on the flanks (Full Back - support behind IF(A) is rarely effective, as you play too narrow, with no outlet to recycle the ball). You have a poor mix of duties (all 4 advanced players are on attack duties), so you'll have little effective movement between the lines. I normally go for a 343 rule. 3 defend duties, 4 support duties, 3 attack duties - or similar. You can mix it up a touch. Finally a BWM is not a very disciplined player, which in that formation, in the midfield pair - he should be.

Ok, thanks for the help. I'll implement some of your suggestions and see what happens.

[mauvais]

How should I set the best defensive mentality for 4231 or 41221? I'm looking for the best solid defensive tactic settings. Any idea?

[llama3]

Cheers I normally run 4-4-2 but the team I am has an amount of AM's.

Can you suggest alternatives to the the BWM and the inside forward, would wingers be a better option for balance

On the flanks you have 2 alternatives - trying either a wing back behind the inside forward, or a winger in front of a full back. Pretty straightforward choices really. As for the BWM - something disciplined, like a CM(D) would be a bit better, or another DLP could work (support or defend both)

[llama3]

How should I set the best defensive mentality for 4231 or 41221? I'm looking for the best solid defensive tactic settings. Any idea?

Mentality really depends on far more things than just a tactic. Depends how you want to press, use the ball etc. Ordinarily 4-2-3-1 teams tend to be proactive and more offensive, whereas a 4-1-2-2-1 is a slightly more solid shape.

[Boiiing]

I'm having trouble working out how to manage the central midfield pair when playing with an anchor man behind them.

At the moment I have

----------CF(s)--------

W(s)--------------------

-----DLP(s)--CM(a)--W(a)

----------A(d)----------

FB(*)-BPD©-LD(x)-FB(*)

------------GK----------

but a couple of things worry me.

1. Is the DLP going to be defensive enough? If I set him to defend instead of support, I think he'd end up occupying the same space as the anchorman.
   
2. When the attacking winger (right side) goes forward, I'm worried the CM(a) will do likewise, and leave a huge hole to be counterattacked.
   
3. 
   

The FB* players are on "automatic", by the way, I wasn't sure how to indicate that. Would I be better having the FB on the righthand side explicitly on 'support', or do you think automatic is enough to cover that midfield "hole" I mentioned? The problem is that the player who plays there is a CD by preference - he just happens to be better at FB than my specialised rightback - and his best duty is "defend".

[Carles Alena]

Is there a defensive winger role in fm 15 guys?And if yes what do u think about that tactical setup.

--------------CF/a--------------

IF/a------------------------IF/a

----------AP/a--DLP/s----------

DF/s-----------------------DF/s

-----------A or HB/d-----------

---------CD/d----CD/d---------

--------------SK/s--------------

[djzdravkoni]

What are you think about this:

__________AF-A__________

IF-S_______AP-S______IF-A

___BWM-D_____RPM-S____

WB-A__CD-D__CD-D__WB-S

__________SK-S__________

OR:

__________DLF-S__________

IF-S_______SS-A______IF-A

___BWM-D_____RPM-S____

WB-A__CD-D__CD-D__WB-S

__________SK-S__________

[wakey24]

I played with 4-3-3 DM wide with attacking wingback and 2 attacking inside forwards. However, I haven't bought well on the left hand side and now face myself with a winger type player instead of inside forward. How can I integrate this into my formation? My striker is a advanced forward.

[tehtea]

What are you think about this:

__________AF-A__________

IF-S_______AP-S______IF-A

___BWM-D_____RPM-S____

WB-A__CD-D__CD-D__WB-S

__________SK-S__________

OR:

__________DLF-S__________

IF-S_______SS-A______IF-A

___BWM-D_____RPM-S____

WB-A__CD-D__CD-D__WB-S

__________SK-S__________

There is no midfield 'holder' in your formations. They're important because they help to snuff out counterattack opportunities before they cause a big threat to your team. So, you can consider changing your BWM to a DLP (D) instead.

Also, what team strategy are you playing these formations with? If you are going for an attacking strategy with high pressing, I would suggest changing the RPM in either to a BWM (S). Otherwise, there really isn't a big difference between either tactics. Oh, and one more thing - for the first formation you can change the AP to an enganche if you don't plan to press your opponents aggressively. For some reason they seem to perform better offensively.

[Andrew K]

I want to thank llama3 for this pdf. The single most helpful thing I've ever read on CM/FM.

[llama3]

I want to thank llama3 for this pdf. The single most helpful thing I've ever read on CM/FM.

Thank You. I would highly recommend the Lines & Diamonds guide. It is an absolute masterpiece.

[gooner4ever]

Thank You. I would highly recommend the Lines & Diamonds guide. It is an absolute masterpiece.

And I would highly recommend both. Whenever I have tactical questions, my first source of knowledge are these two guides.

[Bunkerossian]

First of all- this guide is quite intriguing, and I hope I could improve using it. Now, I play with Celtic, and I have managed to win the league. But my team has seen some ugly results- far too much considering I should be dominating Scotland. Here is the tactic that gives me the most trouble in getting things to work:

---------------------------------GK (D)

FB(S)/WB (S)----------LD(D)-----------CD(D)------WB(S)

-----------------------------------DM(D)

-------------------------BBM(S)----------BWM(S)

IF(A)--------------------------------------------------W(S)

--------------------------------F9(S)/AF(A)

The variations in roles are due to team rotation and player specifics. I'd like to play with 2 wingers in this formation honestly, as it is supposed to offer more solidity. However, when I start the save, my first choice right winger is injured, and thus I used a player on IF. Team is set to Balanced mentality and Structured shape for domestic games, and Defensive in Europe. I have trouble with 4-4-1-1 and 4-5-1 formations the most. A goal either pops up from nowhere, and I cannot break the opposition down, or they simply control the possession and pressure me, despite me trying a high line and having better players. To be fair, due to the weather, I am often forced to activate More Direct Team Instr. Play Out of Defense is on always in domestic competitions. I'd like to hear tips how to solidify the tactic defensively, especially for Europe, as I'd like to get a few upsets of giants under my belt. As long as I concede less, I'll be happier.

[Fox]

Can I get this in PDFs for drop box?

[Fox]

How come I can't save this into PDFs for my iPad?

great thread by the way.

[Fox]

It just ends up saving the web page to PDFs every time

[Spartak Trigger]

I am planning on setting up as follows, can anybody spot any major flaws and give me some advice on mentality & instructions please?

----------------GK D-------------------

FB s---CD d----------CD d -------FB s

----------------AN d -------------------

--------DLP s-----------CM a----------

IF a --------------------------------W s

----------------T a ---------------------

Looking to sit deep and counter at pace

Playing Port Vale, and have only signed del pierro so far

Thanks in advance

[llama3]

No forward running on your left flank, and no width on your right flank. Mentality, instructions, roles, duties - they all depend on what your team's strengths and weaknesses are.

[Reedy_1988]

On paper is their any obvious flaws that i may not be seeing in this 4-4-2 formation,

I've yet to decide on instructions as this is something I feel I will tailor depending on my opponents, weather etc..

Mentality - Standard, Balanced.

GK: G(D)

RB: FB(A)

CB: CD(D)

CB: CD(D)

LB: FB(S)

RM: W(S)

CM: CM(D)

CM: CM(S)

LM: WM(A)

ST: F9 (S) or (DLF (S) when my backup forward plays who has better strength.)

ST: AF (A)