The Santos Project - Tactical and Player Development

[voe2012]

Couldn't you just place these youngsters in your first team squad and only make the available for the reserves? This means they will train with the senior players, but play for the reserves...

Yes, that's what I do now. Not sure however if it is beneficial or detrimental for 15 year old to train with the senior players. After all, all my top rated youth coaches are working woth the U19's

[WormboY]

Tks for the awesome post Cleon.

[Nix]

An excellent read thanks for the information.

[Katana]

Excellent thread Cleon!

"Quick" question. Not sure if you sign young players, or only use the new ones you get every year. Anyhow, do you look for any particular personality in your youngsters, or do you expect to tutor them all anyhow so this won't matter?

I don't have the recruitment available in the club I use to get "star" players every year, so I am often buying/signing new young players who will eventually become HG. Have you found that there are a particular set of personalities that are easier to tutor into the professional squad you're trying to build, barring the ones you've listed as potential tutors ofcourse. Or doesn't the initial personality matter that much, as you'll be able to mold them into your preferred personality anyhow?

Thanks again and looking forward to your updates!

[Cleon]

Initial personality doesn't matter because I can tutor them if its poor

[Fredholm]

How many youngsters do you develop at the same time and how many games do they get on average?

I'm struggling to get all my youngsters - around 15 - enough playing time and was wondering how you do it.

[Cleon]

How many youngsters do you develop at the same time and how many games do they get on average?

I'm struggling to get all my youngsters - around 15 - enough playing time and was wondering how you do it.

I develop all. If you can't find time to play all the ones you have then your squad is too big

[Fredholm]

I develop all. If you can't find time to play all the ones you have then your squad is too big

Fair enough.

They do all get games but some don't get more than two or three and I was just wondering if that is enough.

And how many are "all" in your squad?

[Cleon]

Fair enough.

They do all get games but some don't get more than two or three and I was just wondering if that is enough.

And how many are "all" in your squad?

Squad size depends on how many things I am competing for. I build it around that, so it varies. All my top youths (lets say for arguments sake I have 15) will all play 15+ games a season easily.

The more you play the youths the quicker they'll develop.

[mangelito]

Hey, I'm a little basic compared to the in depth knowledge here. Was wondering what the experts think about pushing a player into a hard training routine while they're unhappy vs a lighter routine they're content/happy doing with regards to their development. Thanks for the hard work, I've picked up a lot reading through this already! Definitely bookmarked this thread.

I wonder this too. I want a heavy focus on the individual training for most of my players but notice I have to lower the general training a lot to keep them happy. Surely it must effect training performance? What are your thoughts on this, Cleon?

[lewis999]

I wonder this too. I want a heavy focus on the individual training for most of my players but notice I have to lower the general training a lot to keep them happy. Surely it must effect training performance? What are your thoughts on this, Cleon?

Cleon will correct me if i'm wrong i'm sure but I think he said last year in the Ajax thread amongst others that he's not bothered about player's complaining with training, basically just leaves them to do it "his" way and i'm sure they thank him when they're 19-20 and they're world class like they were in his Ajax game.

Again someone will correct me if i'm wrong but I think the more professional a player is, the less he will be bothered about a training schedule being too difficult, so you can gauge that maybe, on how professional they are and if they need tutoring to increase their professionalism.

[Cleon]

Cleon will correct me if i'm wrong i'm sure but I think he said last year in the Ajax thread amongst others that he's not bothered about player's complaining with training, basically just leaves them to do it "his" way and i'm sure they thank him when they're 19-20 and they're world class like they were in his Ajax game.

Again someone will correct me if i'm wrong but I think the more professional a player is, the less he will be bothered about a training schedule being too difficult, so you can gauge that maybe, on how professional they are and if they need tutoring to increase their professionalism.

Pretty much yeah. I thought I'd wrote about this already in the opening posts. I just ignore them because I train them how I want and when you are focusing purely on player development its important you stick to the plan regardless imo.

[bababooey]

Cleon, have you experimented with dropping the training workload for weeks where you have midweek games? I'm always playing in europe with teams that qualify for the champions league or uefa cup and so my fixture list if often very congested (and also domestic cups).

I usually approach training like:

- 30% match training, or 20% but I want to try out 10%

- general training set according to main team strategy

- match training adjusted per opponent

- individual training = all on roles except older player

- training intensity set to average but with midweek games I drop it down to "low" or "very low"

Dropping it down seems to help the players recover in a huge way. I'm just concerned we might lose out a bit doing this?

[Cleon]

Cleon, have you experimented with dropping the training workload for weeks where you have midweek games? I'm always playing in europe with teams that qualify for the champions league or uefa cup and so my fixture list if often very congested (and also domestic cups).

I usually approach training like:

- 30% match training, or 20% but I want to try out 10%

- general training set according to main team strategy

- match training adjusted per opponent

- individual training = all on roles except older player

- training intensity set to average but with midweek games I drop it down to "low" or "very low"

Dropping it down seems to help the players recover in a huge way. I'm just concerned we might lose out a bit doing this?

I normally play in Brazil and if you are successful you tend to have around 84 games a season which means a game every 2 days or so for around 8 months. But I never stray from what I started with. I always keep my bar low anyway so I don't have this issue at all. All my focus is on the individual, general and match training don't really matter for me

Interesting to see you try and adopt a generic approach with using general training to match the team strategy yet at the same time use role training.

[bababooey]

I normally play in Brazil and if you are successful you tend to have around 84 games a season which means a game every 2 days or so for around 8 months. But I never stray from what I started with. I always keep my bar low anyway so I don't have this issue at all. All my focus is on the individual, general and match training don't really matter for me

Interesting to see you try and adopt a generic approach with using general training to match the team strategy yet at the same time use role training.

I had no idea they played so many games in Brazil! The more you know

And yes I do try to keep a bit of a balance. I believe strongly in role training for players that aren't peaked in development, once they hit that I would attribute train for things like: agility, etc.

I've found that you can really make an influence on matches if you use the proper match training to adjust to an opponent, so if playing stoke you'd practice defending set pieces, etc.

General I'm a little more lenient with because sometimes I will change it from matching the team's main mentality, to something else if I need to be extra prepared for a fixture. So if I need to play Bayern Munich, perhaps we'll train "defensive" for general training that week + match training of attacking set pieces to try and grab a win

[Cleon]

I had no idea they played so many games in Brazil! The more you know

And yes I do try to keep a bit of a balance. I believe strongly in role training for players that aren't peaked in development, once they hit that I would attribute train for things like: agility, etc.

I've found that you can really make an influence on matches if you use the proper match training to adjust to an opponent, so if playing stoke you'd practice defending set pieces, etc.

General I'm a little more lenient with because sometimes I will change it from matching the team's main mentality, to something else if I need to be extra prepared for a fixture. So if I need to play Bayern Munich, perhaps we'll train "defensive" for general training that week + match training of attacking set pieces to try and grab a win

You do realise that general training doesn't match strategy though right? It just focuses on sets of attributes meaning the emphasis is on those attributes a lot greater. So if you use attacking as the general training it then means everyone of your players will be concentrating on those attributes. It has nothing to do with preparing for the fixtures etc its about how you shape the attributes. Post 7 explains it.

[phnompenhandy]

Damn, how has it taken me so long to stumble across this what is destined to be a classic thread??!!

Some basic questions if you will, Cleon.

1. Match Prep: most categories just give a boost for the upcoming game, such as Att Movt and Def set pieces, but I'm only interested in long-term development. Tactics Only does that of course, but can you say more about Team Cohesion - is that just for one match, boosting Teamwork or some such, or do the benefits carry over?

2. And in General Training, does Team Cohesion speed up tactical familiarity? What attributes does it build up?

3. I also start with a very professional/determined squad - now, about training intensity: most are happy, some grumble about the workload. What I generally do is put the youths who don't see regular first team action on heavy individual schedules, and the first teamers on average. If the first teamers are professional enough, is there any detriment to putting them on very high general training and heavy individual training? I wouldn't do it for fitness training - it would break them, but how about other training programmes? I might add that I haven't risked this as yet since I have a small squad and I'm keeping injuries to a manageable level with average/high general training schedules/average indiv schedules.

4. I'm in mid-Jan in Skrill North at the mo - 2 games a week/a game every 2 days at times with inclement weather and pitches. Therefore, I've temporarily added rest days before and after matches to manage condition. However I'm out of the cups now and soon will be into mostly Saturday fixtures only, so I'm asking how much I can crank up the training intensity without knackering the boys.

Hope all that makes sense; thanks as always Cleon

[Cleon]

1- Team cohesion is the only one that carries over but is useless once everyone is gelled because it means they already have an understanding of each other.

2 - Nope it has nothing to do with tactical familiarity at all. It doesn't train attributes either it just helps the players get a better understanding of each other off the pitch. So its something you'd use when bringing in new players in preseason etc.

3 - The more intense the general setting the more risk of injury and the greater the emphasis on the attributes that category trains. if you are focusing on player development though then you'd want the intensity to actually be lower so the gains come from role/individual attribute training instead.

4 - Actually sometimes resting players can cause fitness issues too because they aren't training. Too much rest can also be a bad thing and means players won't be in peak condition between games. So you have to be careful and make sure that tiredness is from actual games and not because of lack of training. To how far you can actually crank it up though depends and will be different for everyone. I'd just make a judgement call or experiment until you find the level that works for you and doesn't increase the risk of serious injuries etc.

[Super Bladesman]

One comment on your pre-season routine (which is essentially the same as mine) - when starting a new career, I always choose to run a league (view only) that starts early. Germany starts late June I think - anyway, this gives a bit longer in Season 1 to work on that Tactic Familiarity.

[phnompenhandy]

1- Team cohesion is the only one that carries over but is useless once everyone is gelled because it means they already have an understanding of each other.

2 - Nope it has nothing to do with tactical familiarity at all. It doesn't train attributes either it just helps the players get a better understanding of each other off the pitch. So its something you'd use when bringing in new players in preseason etc.

3 - The more intense the general setting the more risk of injury and the greater the emphasis on the attributes that category trains. if you are focusing on player development though then you'd want the intensity to actually be lower so the gains come from role/individual attribute training instead.

4 - Actually sometimes resting players can cause fitness issues too because they aren't training. Too much rest can also be a bad thing and means players won't be in peak condition between games. So you have to be careful and make sure that tiredness is from actual games and not because of lack of training. To how far you can actually crank it up though depends and will be different for everyone. I'd just make a judgement call or experiment until you find the level that works for you and doesn't increase the risk of serious injuries etc.

Brilliant, thanks Cleon. To clarify a little further:

1-2. Okay, I got that Team Cohesion is just a short-term thing to integrate new players, but if you say that's the only match prep program that carries over, I presume you're overlooking 'Tactics Only' - that keeps carrying over until the squad are fully conversant with your tactics, right?

3. Of course, how stupid of me! Reducing General Training means more %age time spent on individual role/skill training.

About injuries - in past editions, I've sensed that training injuries leapt up when I over-egged fitness training. Logically, intense training in tactics, for example, shouldn't result in extra injuries. Am I imagining it, or is intensive training in non-fitness schedules less risky than fitness schedules?

4. I'm purely talking here about players who are playing 2-3 games per week during a packed winter period. I find that a day's training before a match will still render them tired when the game kicks off, whereas resting them will bring their condition up to 90% at kick-off. As a result the number of injuries sustained is quite manageable during that intense period. No one has lost match fitness, and if they did I'd just stick them in the reserves for a 45min friendly run-out.

[Cleon]

1. Yeah sorry about that.

3. No this is correct and something you are thinking about correctly

[lewis999]

How's the Santos project coming along Cleon? Which season are you in now?

[Cleon]

How's the Santos project coming along Cleon? Which season are you in now?

Not played really, been away and then now we are sorting out the next edition of Clear Cut Chance

[mangelito]

Pretty much yeah. I thought I'd wrote about this already in the opening posts. I just ignore them because I train them how I want and when you are focusing purely on player development its important you stick to the plan regardless imo.

I see. My thinking was that they would gain less from the training if they were unhappy. But if that doesn't make any difference, I don't mind having a few unhappy players in the team.

[lewis999]

Cleon I have a weird situation. I have brought in this tutor on a free set as a back up player. Everything is okay the guy who I want him to tutor is in his list etc. So I click on him and then say work with him off the pitch (as I don't want to transfer his PPM) and he says he doesn't want to, baring in mind he has "driven" personality and "evasive" media handling style which I thought was very good.

I tried it again the next day and went with the on the pitch option thinking i'll take the risk over the PPM and he said the same thing. I did it again with a different tone and he just said, "I'm not going over this subject again." So have I signed someone for no reason despite him "seeming" like a brilliant tutor? Have you had this happen to you?

[Cleon]

Cleon I have a weird situation. I have brought in this tutor on a free set as a back up player. Everything is okay the guy who I want him to tutor is in his list etc. So I click on him and then say work with him off the pitch (as I don't want to transfer his PPM) and he says he doesn't want to, baring in mind he has "driven" personality and "evasive" media handling style which I thought was very good.

I tried it again the next day and went with the on the pitch option thinking i'll take the risk over the PPM and he said the same thing. I did it again with a different tone and he just said, "I'm not going over this subject again." So have I signed someone for no reason despite him "seeming" like a brilliant tutor? Have you had this happen to you?

It happens sometimes yeah and is down to his other hidden attributes. It's a pain when it happens but nothing you can do about it

[lewis999]

It happens sometimes yeah and is down to his other hidden attributes. It's a pain when it happens but nothing you can do about it

Oh dear. Okay, well i'm going to make their lives a misery then thanks for clearing that up.

[bababooey]

You do realise that general training doesn't match strategy though right? It just focuses on sets of attributes meaning the emphasis is on those attributes a lot greater. So if you use attacking as the general training it then means everyone of your players will be concentrating on those attributes. It has nothing to do with preparing for the fixtures etc its about how you shape the attributes. Post 7 explains it.

Yep, got that

[Cleon]

Yep, got that

You knew before? Or you know now?

I'm asking because if you knew before I was wondering why you'd change general training for the certain matches.

[bababooey]

You knew before? Or you know now?

I'm asking because if you knew before I was wondering why you'd change general training for the certain matches.

Before. It's a silly thing to do I realize, but I did this early on with FM 13 at the time and it FELT like it helped in certain matches so I stuck with it. Probably nothing more than the placebo effect

I think with my new Leverkusen save I'm going to ditch that and just use general training to complement the defensive abilities of my players. Rock solid at the back makes it hard to beat us.

[Cleon]

Before. It's a silly thing to do I realize, but I did this early on with FM 13 at the time and it FELT like it helped in certain matches so I stuck with it. Probably nothing more than the placebo effect

I think with my new Leverkusen save I'm going to ditch that and just use general training to complement the defensive abilities of my players. Rock solid at the back makes it hard to beat us.

It will make your strikers etc train those attributes too, so you'll waste CA. You don't really want none defensive players focusing on;

• Defending: Marking, Tackling, Positioning
  

Do you?

[bababooey]

It will make your strikers etc train those attributes too, so you'll waste CA. You don't really want none defensive players focusing on;

• Defending: Marking, Tackling, Positioning
  

Do you?

That's a good point... I should have thought of that. Thanks for pointing that out, I feel a bit silly now.

I'm still in preseason so I haven't done anything about that yet, but perhaps when the season kicks off I'll train "balanced" or "team cohesion" + my role focus for individuals. I'm excited to try 10% match training, too.

[WormboY]

Cleon, do u sign staff for jr squad? to have nice rating stars on training too (4/5 stars) or just put youngs (with potential) on A team, to "use" the A team staff ?

[Steve Odom]

Hey Cleon

I just noticed you recommend the resolute personality, which I used to seek out. Recently though, I discovered by using the spreadsheet rather extensively, most of them to be quite low in their pressure handling. That is, if it's not accomanied with"unflappable" media handling.

Is this something you bother with when you play? I find it a lot easier to motivate my squad if I can actually put pressure on them.

[Cleon]

Cleon, do u sign staff for jr squad? to have nice rating stars on training too (4/5 stars) or just put youngs (with potential) on A team, to "use" the A team staff ?

Once I've been at the club for a while I only have a first team but it takes a few seasons to get right and ship out the current youths and get the new ones I need. When I do this I have no junior coaches because there not really needed.

Hey Cleon

I just noticed you recommend the resolute personality, which I used to seek out. Recently though, I discovered by using the spreadsheet rather extensively, most of them to be quite low in their pressure handling. That is, if it's not accomanied with"unflappable" media handling.

Is this something you bother with when you play? I find it a lot easier to motivate my squad if I can actually put pressure on them.

I actually ignore the media side of the game completely, I have no interest in the repetitiveness of it all. I don't really motivate my side I just try and build a solid tactic and then the rest takes care of itself I've found.

[Steve Odom]

But they will sufferunder stress anyway, whether you use the media or not. If I tell my team "I expect a win!" at matchday, my only proffessional player tends to get nervous. He is really low on handling pressure. It's because of things like that I search for players with "unflappable" or "evasice" as media handling style, they don't get nervous, ever.

[Cleon]

But they will sufferunder stress anyway, whether you use the media or not. If I tell my team "I expect a win!" at matchday, my only proffessional player tends to get nervous. He is really low on handling pressure. It's because of things like that I search for players with "unflappable" or "evasice" as media handling style, they don't get nervous, ever.

I know but I still ignore it

[Guest]

Cleon, I have to say a big thanks for putting so much effort in to helping all of us on here, it is very appreciated.

[begoodpam]

Hi Cleon,

Just one question, how can i increase the bar of formation in the Tactic Familiarity Levels, because i started the pré season on 9/7/13 and at 31/08/13 the others bars are full and the formation bar is about 33%.

KUTGW:applause:

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Just one question, how can i increase the bar of formation in the Tactic Familiarity Levels, because i starded the pré season on 9/7/13 and at 31/08/13 the others bars are full and the formation bar is about 33%.

KUTGW:applause:

Just keep training 'tactics' as the match prep.

[kandersson]

another fantastic thread like the Ajax one

sorry if you have already explained this, you say you're not much interested in general training nut how do you use it then? I like specific training as well so what I do is leaving general training on balanced and use individual specific focus (heavy) for desired attribute or position. Not sure is the general training on balanced keep them more 'general' though. Am I missing something? Is there a way to go even more specific?

[Cleon]

another fantastic thread like the Ajax one

sorry if you have already explained this, you say you're not much interested in general training nut how do you use it then? I like specific training as well so what I do is leaving general training on balanced and use individual specific focus (heavy) for desired attribute or position. Not sure is the general training on balanced keep them more 'general' though. Am I missing something? Is there a way to go even more specific?

I leave it balanced. if you are focusing on player roles/individual attributes then this is the best way imo due to nalanced meaning all attributes have equal amounts of training.

[kandersson]

I leave it balanced. if you are focusing on player roles/individual attributes then this is the best way imo due to nalanced meaning all attributes have equal amounts of training.

thanks for the quick answer, that is the approach I use myself

[phnompenhandy]

So if you leave General Training>Balanced on LOW, does that increase the %age time spent on individual position/role training? If so is it a good idea to keep all indiv training on HEAVY?

[yonko]

I actually ignore the media side of the game completely, I have no interest in the repetitiveness of it all. I don't really motivate my side I just try and build a solid tactic and then the rest takes care of itself I've found.

So do you leave press conferences and team talks to your assistant manager then?

I get annoyed with the repetitiveness of it all too, btw.

[Cleon]

So if you leave General Training>Balanced on LOW, does that increase the %age time spent on individual position/role training? If so is it a good idea to keep all indiv training on HEAVY?

Indeed it is yeah.

So do you leave press conferences and team talks to your assistant manager then?

I get annoyed with the repetitiveness of it all too, btw.

I do yeah its all pointless for how I play and I have no interest in this side of the game at all

[Falahk]

Cleon, I've always wondered how do you cope with tactics with double wide players like 442,451 etc. using this shape?

For me, it's never been a problem to make it work offensively, but results were never as good since opponents would always have a free run down the wings.

a box or a narrow diamond formation is surprisingly strong down the wings since the shape overload one side at a time, the problems start to appear when the opponent can switch possession from one side to the other rapidly with 3-4 short passes and the defensive shape can not readjust in time and as such risk being overloaded on the other side

[Steve Odom]

So do you leave press conferences and team talks to your assistant manager then?

I get annoyed with the repetitiveness of it all too, btw.

It's not repetitive for me, since I do it a bit different all the time. i find it rather exciting to thinker around with, especially since I get to know my players quite well over time. But each his own style I guess.

[Rajon]

Great thread, I use these indications (and from Ajax topic, off course) with success in my career (bring a low division Italian team to Serie A with a lot of young people). I'd like to ask you: sometimes I've some professional player (actually it has happened to a Model Professional too) that don't improve, also if I play them in the first team and they have still potential (using the staff reports at least). What do you suggest?

[Torskus77]

Absolutely brilliant help to me this is, can't thank you enough.

Quick question, and forgive me if it is answered somewhere in here (I have looked) Pre-season training, brilliant help I understand the match prep part. What do you do with the general during pre-season? Do you use team cohesion if you have signed a lot of players (Just started a new game, and I am estimating I will need to add 4 or 5 players to my squad this time around, Will obviously try and cut this down in future, but it's difficult

when you are in a game where you are trying to climb the leagues, presuming you do get promoted the team always needs strengthening.

Or do you go for fitness with the general in pre-season, and if so how high? Does any of this affect the match prep. Forgive me if I am thick and have missed this, just want to get it right from the off. T

Thank you again.