3-4-1-2; Starved Strikers

[heisenburglar]

I'm more of a lurker on here, and this is my first thread (exciting). I've taken my beloved Birmingham City to the Europa League places of the Prem, but I still feel I can take this squad even further with some tweaks. The board expects a top half finish, I'm currently in 6th while the media predicts 12th.

I play with 2 strikers, both of which seem to constantly be on goal droughts, particularly as the season comes to a close. I feel they're good enough, but they often end up with ratings of 5.3. First I'll show you the tactic itself.

I've gone without the Defensive Wingers as none of my players are rated very highly there, and I find all it does is make them close down like mad and let them the opposition in down the flanks. Playing without fullbacks, I can only really mark one of their widemen, meaning they can easily keep the ball. As such, I've tried to set up in a way such that when I gain possession, I keep hold of it as long as possible, with the high tempo shout included with the intention of more penetrative play in the final third.

Only, that's not how it's working and I'd be keen to know why. The front 3 get very little service, epitomised by this game against Liverpool, a 2-1 loss

The match stats aren't too bad, 40% possession at Anfield is decent enough and it appears I had enough chances to win the game. However both my strikers finished on 5.3s.

Delving into the analysis reveals why

Neither of them attempted a single shot in the 90 minutes. A little more investigation reveals that the DLF received the ball in the box once, and the AF only twice

It's left me wondering what could have been. I realise that away at Anfield, I might not expect my forwards to do much, but this is happening in many a game, I just found this to be a good example.

My question is; How can I get my strikers into the game more?

[RocheBag]

Your midfielders are crowding your strikers. Your team will look for the AP in the final third and the DLF will just be standing around. I play the same formation except the AM pushed back to DM and a runner from central midfield and my strikers are constantly involved.

Also off topic but regardless of how the players are rated, DWs will perform so much better over the long run.

[heisenburglar]

Your midfielders are crowding your strikers. Your team will look for the AP in the final third and the DLF will just be standing around. I play the same formation except the AM pushed back to DM and a runner from central midfield and my strikers are constantly involved.

Also off topic but regardless of how the players are rated, DWs will perform so much better over the long run.

Thanks for the tip, that seems to make sense, I'll give it a go. What roles/duties have you found success with? After reading the MC combinations thread, I've been tempted by the AP -A next to a BWM - S and a DM -D behind.

I'm wondering the same about the DWs, my wingers seem to provide most of my goals atm, though that may be more to do with what you said about overcrowding the middle.

[Fabian Jonsson]

I recommend DM - DLP/D, MCr - CM/A, MCl - AP/S. That's how I played for much of FM13 and it worked brilliantly. The DM will be under a lot of pressure though, so make sure you have someone who is defensively solid AND calm on the ball (composure, passing, desicions, first touch, etc).

[RocheBag]

Thanks for the tip, that seems to make sense, I'll give it a go. What roles/duties have you found success with? After reading the MC combinations thread, I've been tempted by the AP -A next to a BWM - S and a DM -D behind.

I'm wondering the same about the DWs, my wingers seem to provide most of my goals atm, though that may be more to do with what you said about overcrowding the middle.

I have a Regista behind a CM-A and a B2B-S, with the CM-A playing on the same side as the AF, so to not crowd the DLF. My DWs score a lot of my goals too, I find they don't lose any offense as DWs.

[THOG]

I'm wondering the same about the DWs, my wingers seem to provide most of my goals atm, though that may be more to do with what you said about overcrowding the middle.

I actually agree with your initial assessment about DWs. In practice, DWs are more about pressing high and initiating counterattacks near the final third, and with a fluid system, those DWs are viewing themselves as part of the attacking unit, not the defensive unit. Without fullbacks, that will leave your flanks badly exposed. I would recommend just pulling those players back into the wingback position. This particular 3-4-1-2 is going to be leaky unless you're a top team consistently going up against very defensive opponents.

I would also note that, while you're crowding the middle, you're also getting very little penetration in the attacking third. The playmaker is going to look to stay in the hole, so that leaves only one player consistently getting forward. In essence, you've created too many sources of final third balls and not enough targets, so it's not that your striker is being "starved" so much as the opposition only has to focus on keeping one from being fed.

Keeping the same mentality/fluidity intact, I would suggest trying out the following and seeing if it gets closer to what I think you're going for here:

Striker Stratum: DLP(S), AF(A)

Central Midfield Stratum: CM(D), CM (A)

Def. Midfield Stratum: WB(A/S), DLP (D), WB (A/S)

Defender Stratum: CB (D) x3

[heisenburglar]

Thanks for your responses, it seems the DM "triangle" is indeed the way to go, only had Chelsea and Arsenal left to play, but the football was certainly more entertaining to watch.

I actually agree with your initial assessment about DWs. In practice, DWs are more about pressing high and initiating counterattacks near the final third, and with a fluid system, those DWs are viewing themselves as part of the attacking unit, not the defensive unit. Without fullbacks, that will leave your flanks badly exposed. I would recommend just pulling those players back into the wingback position.

Regarding this, ideally this is what I would do, but the reason I went for this tactic was lack of quality full-backs/wing-backs in my squad (also due to the much maligned ME). I'm not sure if it's worth retraining my M R/L to WB R/L, as I'd rather this than sell them. Redmond in particular is a fan favourite, but 6 tackling and 7 marking, a wing-back does not make.

Maybe the DW-D would be a suitable compromise, with specific focus on tackling?

[RocheBag]

Thanks for your responses, it seems the DM "triangle" is indeed the way to go, only had Chelsea and Arsenal left to play, but the football was certainly more entertaining to watch.

Regarding this, ideally this is what I would do, but the reason I went for this tactic was lack of quality full-backs/wing-backs in my squad (also due to the much maligned ME). I'm not sure if it's worth retraining my M R/L to WB R/L, as I'd rather this than sell them. Redmond in particular is a fan favourite, but 6 tackling and 7 marking, a wing-back does not make.

Maybe the DW-D would be a suitable compromise, with specific focus on tackling?

I just man-mark my DW-S to the opposition wingers/wide mids. They press up the pitch, act as wingers on offense, and still get back extremely effectively. I find wingbacks to be much worse than DW-S in both attack and defense.

[jaybert]

Hi there. I created same formation for my Southampton team. Generally it is working great especially at home but against stronger teams or away you are vulnerable through center of the field. IMO I wouldnt use box to box there, you need 2 hardworking holding midfielders who hold their positions. Personally I use classic CMs+CMd and Trequartista in front of them. The treq is the king of this formation. Change wide midfielders into defensive wingers they are just fine.

[RocheBag]

Hi there. I created same formation for my Southampton team. Generally it is working great especially at home but against stronger teams or away you are vulnerable through center of the field. IMO I wouldnt use box to box there, you need 2 hardworking holding midfielders who hold their positions. Personally I use classic CMs+CMd and Trequartista in front of them. The treq is the king of this formation. Change wide midfielders into defensive wingers they are just fine.

The box-to-box is only practical if there's a DM behind the two CMs, as opposed to an AM ahead of them.

[Mattp1980]

For me shorter passing and play wider are conflicting instructions, I'm sure you can make it work if you keep tweaking but in the interest of a simple tactic I would drop play wider. If you need to get the wide players a little wider do it individually rather than at a team level which will be stretching you in every area. Going back to FM 2013 I'm sure play wider also focuses your passing down the flanks which in your case a little redundant as your strengh is through the middle.

[ajsr1982]

I'm going to add something that hasn't been mentioned yet. You have a high tempo and shorter passing. This means your players are going to be attempting to zip it around like Barcelona (or Arsenal). If they're not up to it, you might find that they're making mistakes and conceding possession, meaning you can't get up the field as often as you'd like.

[heisenburglar]

Thanks for all of your responses, some good advice there. It certainly seems more defensively solid with the two DW-S roles and the marking set up, especially against teams with one striker, as this leaves the 3 centre backs to mark him out of the game.

I set the outer DCs to Stopper duties to come and assist the winger as neither of them have particularly good tackling, but they do a good job of intercepting through balls.

My strikers have been scoring more, however I found the BBM-S to be even more advanced than the CM-A/AP-A (playing around with both at the minute) so I changed him to a DLP-S which seems to work well when the REG-S gets caught in possession. He also deals with any AMCs in a 4-2-3-1 for example.

I've taken off the wider and high tempo shouts, which has stopped all my highlights being crosses, and given me much more possession. I'm still getting a lot of 0-0s though and I'm not sure what the optimum mentality should be (currently Standard). I've been destroyed 3 or 4-0 playing on counter, which I think just invites too much pressure, I suppose it's a case of trial and error for now.

Any suggestions on how to stop these highlightless matches? Pass into space perhaps? A control mentality?

[RocheBag]

Thanks for all of your responses, some good advice there. It certainly seems more defensively solid with the two DW-S roles and the marking set up, especially against teams with one striker, as this leaves the 3 centre backs to mark him out of the game.

I set the outer DCs to Stopper duties to come and assist the winger as neither of them have particularly good tackling, but they do a good job of intercepting through balls.

My strikers have been scoring more, however I found the BBM-S to be even more advanced than the CM-A/AP-A (playing around with both at the minute) so I changed him to a DLP-S which seems to work well when the REG-S gets caught in possession. He also deals with any AMCs in a 4-2-3-1 for example.

I've taken off the wider and high tempo shouts, which has stopped all my highlights being crosses, and given me much more possession. I'm still getting a lot of 0-0s though and I'm not sure what the optimum mentality should be (currently Standard). I've been destroyed 3 or 4-0 playing on counter, which I think just invites too much pressure, I suppose it's a case of trial and error for now.

Any suggestions on how to stop these highlightless matches? Pass into space perhaps? A control mentality?

My suggestion would be to tinker with the DLP-S and maybe change that around a bit. If you find B2B too offensive, maybe try a CM-S or even a BWM-S. Someone who will get forward at least a little bit and provide another option around the box.

[jaybert]

I play rigid-control ans I think it fits this tactic kinda well. My offensive trio is scoring for fun in some matches but as I said struggling in away matches so might change Mentality to standard or even move one MC into DMC position to sit deeper.

Currently sitting on 2nd place in PL in my second season