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tg111

Creating chances but no goals!?

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I have a problem of creating a high amount of chances accompanied with a high amount of possession but few goals thus creating unrealistic results.

Thanks.

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You're not the only one. I've decided on Real Madrid as my first save this year (never been them before so thought it'd be a nice change). Here's a few "highlights":

Friendly v Astana - 68% possession, 26 shots, 9 on target, 12 off target (notice that doesn't even add up), 3 CCCs, 4 goals

Friendly v Astres - 59% possession, 41 shots, 22 on target, 14 off target (again doesn't add up), 6 CCCs, 4 goals

Now while those 2 don't seem terribly awful (just pretty damn bad) it's worth bearing in mind they are TERRIBLE teams. the sort of players Real Madrid have should be putting away more of these chances, or there's no hope against decent sides, like:

La Liga v Valencia - 62% possession, 30 shots, 12 on target, 8 off target (AGAIN doesn't add up WTF?), no CCCs (dunno what a CCC is then cos I'm pretty sure I saw several), 1 goal

REALLY? 1 goal from 30 shots? That's a conversion rate of 3.33%. To put that into perspective, Real Madrid have had 230 shots in La Liga so far this season, and scored 30 goals, a conversion rate of 13.043%. Rayo Vallecano, bottom of La Liga, have converted 5.617% (10 in 178). Opposition teams have scored a much more realistic amount of their shots with 10.606% (7/66) in total and 10.344% (3/29) in proper matches.

I'll see if this pattern evens itself out as I progress, but right now I'm thinking SI has put something in their code to mess with the user's attackers...

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I'm only going to mention the shots to on target/off target.

I think you'll find blocked shots & possibly Woodwork are counted as shots but not as off or on target. Not 100% on this, but check it out and see if that helps that.

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I had 67 shots in two home matches with United and lost 2-1 to Southampton and drew 2-2 with Crystal Palace who had 3 shots on goal.

Get used to it, it's Football Manager.

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I had 67 shots in two home matches with United and lost 2-1 to Southampton and drew 2-2 with Crystal Palace who had 3 shots on goal.

Get used to it, it's Football Manager.

Or play FM13 which is much better balanced at the moment.

I would be pretty pissed off if FM was like this for good.

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How about instead of relying on statistics that tell you absolutely nothing, you look at the match analyses instead?

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You're not the only one. I've decided on Real Madrid as my first save this year (never been them before so thought it'd be a nice change). Here's a few "highlights":

Friendly v Astana - 68% possession, 26 shots, 9 on target, 12 off target (notice that doesn't even add up), 3 CCCs, 4 goals

Friendly v Astres - 59% possession, 41 shots, 22 on target, 14 off target (again doesn't add up), 6 CCCs, 4 goals

Now while those 2 don't seem terribly awful (just pretty damn bad) it's worth bearing in mind they are TERRIBLE teams. the sort of players Real Madrid have should be putting away more of these chances, or there's no hope against decent sides, like:

La Liga v Valencia - 62% possession, 30 shots, 12 on target, 8 off target (AGAIN doesn't add up WTF?), no CCCs (dunno what a CCC is then cos I'm pretty sure I saw several), 1 goal

REALLY? 1 goal from 30 shots? That's a conversion rate of 3.33%. To put that into perspective, Real Madrid have had 230 shots in La Liga so far this season, and scored 30 goals, a conversion rate of 13.043%. Rayo Vallecano, bottom of La Liga, have converted 5.617% (10 in 178). Opposition teams have scored a much more realistic amount of their shots with 10.606% (7/66) in total and 10.344% (3/29) in proper matches.

I'll see if this pattern evens itself out as I progress, but right now I'm thinking SI has put something in their code to mess with the user's attackers...

Uh, no. It isn't a conversion rate of 3.33%. It's a conversion rate of 8.33%, or nearly one in ten, which is actually quite good - if you bear in mind that most saves are actually simple tame catches (say, 6 out of 10), that actually pares down to something like scoring 1 in 3 decent efforts.

You don't count shots, you count shots on target.

Furthermore, your players are just shooting waaaaaaaay too often. That means your forwards are getting too isolated, leaving no option for them but to try to carve out an opportunity individually; if they have low Teamwork (and attacking players often do, since you need a little selfishness to hit the back of the net often), then you can expect this effect to be amplified to the extent that you end up having 30 shots in a match.

You need to make sure that they get better support in the final third.

(Said.super.quietly: it's your tactics. Put another way: the reason the real Real Madrid score more goals from less shots than you is because they play better football.)

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Strikers suck at this game.. yeah they may score, but they score like 1/10 clear chances they have... I realized its better to just get them on a target man or f9 support duty and let the wingers do the job..

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The AI manager is probably doing a better job then.

I've just left a game because it genuinely felt like computer was against me.

I would score about 1 goals for every 3 CCC created, whereas the AI would score from seemingly every shot they took. My normal game looked something like this:

1st half 65% possession - 15 shots on goal, 10 on target, 2 CCC, AI 4 shots on goal, 3 on target, 0 CCC and I'd be 2-0 down....

How can you compete when you have decent strikers who miss CCCs and the AI will have players that just take one touch and turn and fire in from 20 yards consistently.

Also I got kicked from pillar to post, against Millwall they committed 32 fouls and got 1 yellow card.....their centre back Paul Robinson committed 8 fouls without a yellow and scored a hat trick in a 5-0 home defeat where I had 6 CCCs to their 1...!

The ME is shot, how can you play a game that doesn't reflect real life - if it was a one off I could accept it but it was happening every week until I got the sack. I was bottom of the league and only once in 25 games the AI had more CCCs than me!

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The ME is awful at the moment. I used the IGE for a laugh and loaded my championship side with the World's best.

Lost 0-1 at home to Wigan then

0-3 at Yeovil!

Now no doubt some tactical guru will come on and say "it's your tactics" but please!!!

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I've just left a game because it genuinely felt like computer was against me.

I would score about 1 goals for every 3 CCC created, whereas the AI would score from seemingly every shot they took. My normal game looked something like this:

1st half 65% possession - 15 shots on goal, 10 on target, 2 CCC, AI 4 shots on goal, 3 on target, 0 CCC and I'd be 2-0 down....

How can you compete when you have decent strikers who miss CCCs and the AI will have players that just take one touch and turn and fire in from 20 yards consistently.

Also I got kicked from pillar to post, against Millwall they committed 32 fouls and got 1 yellow card.....their centre back Paul Robinson committed 8 fouls without a yellow and scored a hat trick in a 5-0 home defeat where I had 6 CCCs to their 1...!

The ME is shot, how can you play a game that doesn't reflect real life - if it was a one off I could accept it but it was happening every week until I got the sack. I was bottom of the league and only once in 25 games the AI had more CCCs than me!

I understand the frustration, but the match engine is the same for the AI as it is for the gamer. The AI manager creates tactics in the same manner as the gamer. Perhaps the AI manager is creating a more effective tactic, but it is not doing so unfairly.

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The ME is awful at the moment. I used the IGE for a laugh and loaded my championship side with the World's best.

Lost 0-1 at home to Wigan then

0-3 at Yeovil!

Now no doubt some tactical guru will come on and say "it's your tactics" but please!!!

You should read this thread,

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/370921-What-exactly-have-I-paid-for-here

It will 100% be your tactics.

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I understand the frustration, but the match engine is the same for the AI as it is for the gamer. The AI manager creates tactics in the same manner as the gamer. Perhaps the AI manager is creating a more effective tactic, but it is not doing so unfairly.

But how can a tactic that doesn't create anywhere near the same amount of CCCs be more effective? Surely all tactics strive to create more CCCs and allow less to be created against them - that is all you can do as things like strikers having an off day and goalkeepers being brilliant happen every now and again.

If I was having 40 shots but only 2 CCCs, and the AI was having 6 shots and 3 CCCs then yes, their tactics would clearly be more effective - but as things stand that just isn't the case. the split between Shots:Shots on target:Clear cut chances is relatively consistent for both sides and what I'd expect.....but their speculative shots seem to fly into the top corner were as my good chances seem to hit the bar, post or the keeper.

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Utter rubbish!

Well it completely disproves your theory, but obviously your right and the many posters in that thread are wrong.

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If it is ones tactics, then this mealy serves to indicate that the game places far too much emphasis on the part tactics play.

Pretty much this.

Tactics in real life only go so far, it is what the players do on the park that counts, quality players will always shine through.

Point in fact is the thread that Milnerpoint has shown, world class players can not win a game against a mid table Championship side because the tactic you are using is not good.

I don't buy it for a second.

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Its a common misconception that all you need are the best players and you will win no matter what, thankfully FM does not follow that train of thought. Players are always just part of the puzzle, without solid tactics anyone can fail.

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No having the best players is a BIG part of the puzzle, also no one is arguing that you do not have to have a good tactic, it is the game is now putting too much emphasis on the tactic and what the tactic should be.

If a team is having 24 shots at goal with say 4 CCC and 5 half chances then the tactic is working, they are creating chances and good chances at that, why change the tactic when it is clearly working?

The problem is far too many times is a team on the losing side after creating such chances as the other team has 6 chances with 3 CCC and wins the game 1-0.

You could take it on the chin if it happens like once a season, it happens far far too often in this release.

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I had 67 shots in two home matches with United and lost 2-1 to Southampton and drew 2-2 with Crystal Palace who had 3 shots on goal.

Get used to it, it's Football Manager.

Or if you're not a bad manager see where your tactics are wrong and change it.

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No having the best players is a BIG part of the puzzle, also no one is arguing that you do not have to have a good tactic, it is the game is now putting too much emphasis on the tactic and what the tactic should be.

If a team is having 24 shots at goal with say 4 CCC and 5 half chances then the tactic is working, they are creating chances and good chances at that, why change the tactic when it is clearly working?

The problem is far too many times is a team on the losing side after creating such chances as the other team has 6 chances with 3 CCC and wins the game 1-0.

You could take it on the chin if it happens like once a season, it happens far far too often in this release.

You just argued that,

orld class players can not win a game against a mid table Championship side because the tactic you are using is not good.

I don't buy it for a second.

So that is exactly what you just said. Players are a part of the overall puzzle, how big or small that part is doesnt really matter, you cannot have part of a puzzle and expect it to complete it by itself.

Its all such a pointless comparison tho, no team will ever have every single world class player, so its impossible to say exactly how they would react in the situation. All you can do is follow normal footballing logic, which is good players, good tactics, and good moral, mixed in with a few other less important factors. Without anyone of the main three, your likely to fail.

A working tactic is the won that wins games, not the one that creates the most shots. More shots may be a bi-product of a working tactic, but it doesnt indicate one.

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A working tactic is the won that wins games, not the one that creates the most shots. More shots may be a bi-product of a working tactic, but it doesnt indicate one.

Surely a working tactic is one that creates the most CCCs while conceding the least? However the problem is that despite creating more CCCs my conversion is terrible, and the AI scores from half chances all game.

I can understand that by having 40 shots you are not necessarily good tactically because they may be from impossible areas, but surely creating CCCs is the name of the game?!

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You just argued that,

So that is exactly what you just said. Players are a part of the overall puzzle, how big or small that part is doesnt really matter, you cannot have part of a puzzle and expect it to complete it by itself.

Its all such a pointless comparison tho, no team will ever have every single world class player, so its impossible to say exactly how they would react in the situation. All you can do is follow normal footballing logic, which is good players, good tactics, and good moral, mixed in with a few other less important factors. Without anyone of the main three, your likely to fail.

A working tactic is the won that wins games, not the one that creates the most shots. More shots may be a bi-product of a working tactic, but it doesnt indicate one.

I have no idea what you are getting at in the first part of this post.

As for the rest, I have yet to see a team in real life continually creating 20+chances week in and week out and having good chances and come away defeated against a team that had some 6 shots at goal.

If it were to happen I am sure no one on this forum would be saying that the team has it's tactics wrong, I am sure they would be saying "man can you believe the bad luck that team is having".

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Surely a working tactic is one that creates the most CCCs while conceding the least? However the problem is that despite creating more CCCs my conversion is terrible, and the AI scores from half chances all game.

I can understand that by having 40 shots you are not necessarily good tactically because they may be from impossible areas, but surely creating CCCs is the name of the game?!

Scoring goals and not conceding them is the name of the game, not creating CCC's.

The AI has no ability to do anything you do not, the AI does not have more chance of scoring, purely because its the AI, the ME has no idea which team is controled by the human and which one is AI controlled.

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I have no idea what you are getting at in the first part of this post.

As for the rest, I have yet to see a team in real life continually creating 20+chances week in and week out and having good chances and come away defeated against a team that had some 6 shots at goal.

If it were to happen I am sure no one on this forum would be saying that the team has it's tactics wrong, I am sure they would be saying "man can you believe the bad luck that team is having".

Creating 20 chances is pretty much irrelevant, if all 20 are rubbish chances. You only need 1 good chance to win a game.

The game currently has too many shots, which is shown in a lot of the screen shots, which seems to give the impression that a tactic is working, where really, most are speculative wasteful shots that have not challenged the keeper.

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Seems a waste of time, it really does.

This conversation just goes in circles with the people supporting it is the players tactics at fault just leaving out the important parts in their response, people have clearly said in almost every post that they are having 20 + shots at goal creating maybe 4 or 5 CCC with 4 or 5 half chances on top of that, compare that to the oppositions 6 shots with 3 CCCs and yet the opposition wins.

Please pay attention to the bold part.

As I said if it only happens once or twice a season you can make your peace with it but it happens far too regularly in this ME.

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So the opposition creates a better CCC and scores from it, i dont see the issue. If its happening regularly then clearly your doing something wrong, again ill repeat this as its very important and often ignored, the ME has no idea who controls who, so it makes absolutely no difference if the AI or the human creates a CCC and the AI is NEVER more likely to score than the human player, based on the fact its the AI. If the human user constantly loses to an AI team despite dominating the stats then the human user needs to re-evaluate what they are doing.

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If its happening regularly then clearly your doing something wrong, again ill repeat this as its very important and often ignored, the ME has no idea who controls who, so it makes absolutely no difference if the AI or the human creates a CCC and the AI is NEVER more likely to score than the human player, based on the fact its the AI. If the human user constantly loses to an AI team despite dominating the stats then the human user needs to re-evaluate what they are doing.

I know the ME does not favour the AI team against the human team.

That just brings us back to there is too much emphasis on tactics in the ME, tactics in real life only go so far.

Anyway a bit sick of arguing this in circles.

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Scoring goals and not conceding them is the name of the game, not creating CCC's.

The AI has no ability to do anything you do not, the AI does not have more chance of scoring, purely because its the AI, the ME has no idea which team is controled by the human and which one is AI controlled.

Surely you can see the point that the best way to score is to create a CCC, therefore if you have a tactic that creates numerous CCCs, whereas the AI creates next to none then it is ridiculous to lose every game from speculative shots that fly in?

By definition, you are creating better chances but don't win? How is a tactic poor if you create good chances and don't concede good chances - just because you lose the game....you're looking at the end result and not the factors that should go into producing the end result.

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I think people need to stop relying so much on the shots and CCC stats and actually watch the attempts at goal. The way the game calculates what is and isn't a CCC is flawed, so you should watch the highlights and decide for yourself what is a chance or not.

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Surely you can see the point that the best way to score is to create a CCC, therefore if you have a tactic that creates numerous CCCs, whereas the AI creates next to none then it is ridiculous to lose every game from speculative shots that fly in?

By definition, you are creating better chances but don't win? How is a tactic poor if you create good chances and don't concede good chances - just because you lose the game....you're looking at the end result and not the factors that should go into producing the end result.

Again, once more. The ME has no idea who is the human and who is the AI, so its a pointless argument. Are you really losing every game by one speculative shot, or are you over exaggerating the issue because your frustrated?

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Again, once more. The ME has no idea who is the human and who is the AI, so its a pointless argument. Are you really losing every game by one speculative shot, or are you over exaggerating the issue because your frustrated?

I've just been sacked, and in the 25 league games where I picked up 20 points there was only one game where the opposition created more CCCs than me.

I had 5 games to save my job, and despite having 60% possession as a minimum and at least 2 more CCCs than the opposition (6-2, 5-1, 2-0. 3-1 and 4-0 on CCCs) I picked up just 1 point. I could accept if I was conceding 8 shots a game, of which 4 were CCCs and I was having 40 shots and only 2 CCCs that tactically there must be something wrong....but the fact of the matter is i SHOULD be scoring more than I am, and conceding less....

My team is an average Championship team, my strikers rotate between Daryl Murphy, David McGoldrick and Coulibaly on loan from Spurs so it's not like I'm expecting to steamroll every team I play, but you'd expect the CCCs to bear some relevance to the game.

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If it is ones tactics, then this mealy serves to indicate that the game places far too much emphasis on the part tactics play.

Spot on. Put the other way around that a player's ability is irrelevant.

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Also on a side note. Isn't it amazing how many will claim the match engine is brilliant and yet it changes all the time.

The ME has good times and bad times and I'm afraid at the moment it's bad. I haven't programmed the game so I have no idea why it's so bad. Some are claiming the full backs are bad and sometimes even just stand there whilst they get dribbled around.

I do remember however, way back when, that just a comma out of place would have drastic effects. Also the frustration of finding that comma in hundreds of thousands of lines of code is enough to drive you insane. So I have a lot of respect for the guys who work hard on the ME.

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I find the people defending ME in this thread amazingly stupid. So many pointing out easily that the other person's tactics are not good enough or they don't know how to play this game,they're totally kidding themselves. Complaints are about the user controlled team having lots of chances ,good chances at that and the AI having limited chances and the strikers or who ever who finds himself with the ball near the opposition's goal sh**ting themselves with shot. And every one goes jumping in blaming the person who's complaining's tactics. Look, a tactic is about to set up a team to create good chances while limiting the opposition with their chances. Thats what the complain is about, the ME,not the tactics. People who are complaining are complaining about the inefficiency of the teams attackers. If someone can't find the fault in the ME when your team is creating 4-6 CCC's a game with 20 shots on target and blame it on the tactics need to seriously take a look at themselves. Everytime i point out the frustration with the ME,i get a reply that my tactics are sh*t or whatever.

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I think people need to stop relying so much on the shots and CCC stats and actually watch the attempts at goal. The way the game calculates what is and isn't a CCC is flawed, so you should watch the highlights and decide for yourself what is a chance or not.

Then, if anything, I've created a plethora of chances that quality players would score the majority of the time, that were not considered CCCs or a half chance(let alone the missed CCCs and half chances). If anything, doing this supports that the engine is currently flawed imo

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What i mean by the above post is Tactics can get your team at best to create good chances,loads of them and limiting the oppositions chances now i am all fine if i create some chances but the chances in my match is falling to Francis jeffers MK 2 and i lose the game due to the other striker being the second coming of whatever great striker you can think of. But When countless chances fall to a player with 16-17 composure attribute, and 15-16 Finishing attribute and he cant hit a barndoor from his 7-8 opportunities,it can't be tactics no way. The only goals you score are from set piece rebounds. I am sure by setting up better tactics,people don't mean to go for a Set piece reliant tactic with a team like Barca,Bayern,Arsenal etc, is it?

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Surely a working tactic is one that creates the most CCCs while conceding the least? However the problem is that despite creating more CCCs my conversion is terrible, and the AI scores from half chances all game.

I can understand that by having 40 shots you are not necessarily good tactically because they may be from impossible areas, but surely creating CCCs is the name of the game?!

Well,This

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Splitting the difference, my experience is somewhere between the two viewpoints.

I have created my own tactic (v similar to last 2 years) and currently sit unbeaten top of the league. The ME is not favouring the AI. BUT....and yes its a capital but, my best finishers can't ever finish 1-on-1 or from through balls (and these are top international strikers), and incredibly frequently hit the woodwork or miss open goals....where as my centre-halves seem to be deadly!

So yes...if you are losing, it IS your tactics. But the ME is also not working all that well in certain aspects at the moment, and this is directly affecting what tactics are most effective, at least in terms of goal scoring

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Splitting the difference, my experience is somewhere between the two viewpoints.

I have created my own tactic (v similar to last 2 years) and currently sit unbeaten top of the league. The ME is not favouring the AI. BUT....and yes its a capital but, my best finishers can't ever finish 1-on-1 or from through balls (and these are top international strikers), and incredibly frequently hit the woodwork or miss open goals....where as my centre-halves seem to be deadly!

So yes...if you are losing, it IS your tactics. But the ME is also not working all that well in certain aspects at the moment, and this is directly affecting what tactics are most effective, at least in terms of goal scoring

Well i don't know if you were replying to me or not,but i agree with you. I was top of the league when i stopped playing. My complains are not due to the results that my team is getting,i am getting good results but not the way i want them. My strikers can't finish at all. The incisive runs are lacking somewhat and every one has a pop at goal from anything closer than 25 yards. All the goals are from a similar pattern of play. The AI seems to score a bit more clinically though not alot but i have seen the other team score from more half chances than my team for sure.

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If the shooting is so poor, why is that my Man United team have a 26% conversion rate? 160 shots on target, 42 goals. And only conceded 14 in 19 overall - just 4 in 11 in the league, and currently haven't conceded a goal in the league in 6 consecutive matches (3 of those with 35 year-old Mickael Landreau standing in for De Gea).

Those goals aren't coming from corners, either - van Persie has 9 goals in 11 appearances (9 starts) and Danny Welbeck has 6 goals in 5 appearances (only 2 starts).

If the fullbacks are horribly bugged, why is it that even Buttner, who isn't exactly an amazing fullback, has an average of 7.08 and has the lowest rating of all my fullbacks?

Stretching the goalscoring out to the last 50 competitive matches, we have a total of 93 goals; 20 from corners, 47 from passes, 24 from crosses, 2 due to opposition errors. And 80 of those 93 were placed shots.

Incidentally, we play possession football, averaging around 60% possession over the last 10 games or so.

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If the shooting is so poor, why is that my Man United team have a 26% conversion rate? 160 shots on target, 42 goals. And only conceded 14 in 19 overall - just 4 in 11 in the league, and currently haven't conceded a goal in the league in 6 consecutive matches (3 of those with 35 year-old Mickael Landreau standing in for De Gea).

.

I agree with what you said about full-backs, I also keep a lot of clean sheets, and strikers do really improve as your tactical familiarity increases BUT, the ME also currently favours certain types of players over others disproportionately. Those who shoot with power (like Drogba or Podolksi in my game) get a LOT more goals from the same number of chances, and of course, strong quick strikers get more chances.

I don't think its far off, but I am a little bored of seeing my (admittedly not world class) Giroud miss endless sitters and then seeing my or opposition central defenders spank in 20 yard volleys on their wrong foot at set pieces!

I would suggest those that are really struggling stick with it though, as I have noticed a significant improvement since my team's tactical prep has improved...though my formation familiarity is still only competent (less than 1/2 the bar) entering march, having only played 1 match with a different one....

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My opinion is that it is largely due to the long shots (i haven't played for a few days due to this frustration). There are way to many long shots being taken on at bad times in the game at the moment and from what i've seen in the game it effects short passing and more patient build up more than more direct quicker play, counter attack play. Most of my games i dominate possession and shots ect but because i watch the match on extended highlights (or whatever it's called) i see most of my shots in a game and the majority are poorly times long shots. The lack of creativity isn't an excuse, and it's not costing me loads of points or anything cos i am 2nd in the league BUT it's absolute rubbish and extremely frustrating to watch. Needs to be a fix before i consider playing the game anymore. It is literally the only thing stopping me enjoying the game because in my opinion it's the best FM yet.

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Read the tactic forums carefully as it really will help you progress further into the game, if your having many shots you need work on your midfielders and attackers shooting in training

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The goals to shot ratio has always been complicated because it's a game. IRL players miss and you can put it down to numerous reasons. However, on a game, it will always look dodgy and forced, as though they missed purposely, which in a sense they have to, because otherwise you'd have huge scoring games.

What has always been difficult to take is the CPU opposition creating and scoring with limited chances. This will always be an issue because there is no solution to how you see a simulated miss. When my team scores, the game has allowed a chance to be converted, just has much as it displays a miss (this is reinforced because there are highlights meaning the ME knows whens there's going to be a chance or not before showing the clip) - the only bias is the AI would always remain within the tactical rules, meaning their chances maybe rewarded more often, especially prior to the sliders being removed before FM2014. One rule is to change something if you've witnessed three or four quality chances misses, because I believe that's the game telling you it doesn't like something.

Obviously if there is a bug on the FM2014 ME, then the conversation rate is off, proving such a thing exists in the coding - but like I said, it has to be adjustable, even though it is a bitter pill to swallow because sometimes your tactics can flatter to deceive.

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