What exactly have I paid for here?

[Georgik]

But you don't need to do that with attacking and very fluid. You are actually playing into the defending sides hands on the surface of it all. They just park the bus which, rather than you testing them by pulling them out of position and losing shape.

I'm going to test this when I get home.

Btw the point about fluid and attacking is one I would make regardless of this experiment. In my experience its just not the best way to open up defensive sides

You're right I had succes with Fluid and Control on FM13, but never tried Very Fluid with Attacking as i was afraid of being too vulnerable in defence.

I'm just using this opportunity to tweak through the tactics, see what suits best my players, it seems that Cristiano doesnt fare too well as an AMR IF

So far it seems that i score hardly mainly because the opposotion are parking the bus and playing very agressively, in 3 matches they've had 1 player sent off for nasty tackles.

Also Aguero seems useless as a Complete Forward with Support, he scored 0 goals in 8 matches.

[jujigatame]

Trust me, this thread will not be providing any reasonable evidence that this is the case

Irrespective of the make-up of the teams, there still needs to be some degree of tactical competence or you'll still get some strange looking stats.

What do you mean by tactical competence in this case? You mean just the general tactical setup, or "tactical familiarity" in particular, or all of the above?

With such a squad I would think very fluid attacking mentality would be fairly appropriate, although I do question the idea of having everyone except for CBs set to attack duty.

[valehannes]

I believe he meant we are the dunces that we are. My very rigid ultra attacking tactic actually wasn't working very well regardless of players.

[milnerpoint]

What do you mean by tactical competence in this case? You mean just the general tactical setup, or "tactical familiarity" in particular, or all of the above?

With such a squad I would think very fluid attacking mentality would be fairly appropriate, although I do question the idea of having everyone except for CBs set to attack duty.

The thing with fluid and so many "flair" players is you will quickly lose shape, and as such you COULD end up being less effective. The likes of Messi, Ronaldo, and Neymar could end up being less effective if all three are given the freedom to do as they please, this in turn will most likely lead to situations where the only option available is to shoot from long range, which in turn leads to your team getting frustrated and inevitably you lose that one goal, it just so happens with this level of player against lower opposition your more likely to score than normal, purely on their talent.

[Georgik]

What do you mean by tactical competence in this case? You mean just the general tactical setup, or "tactical familiarity" in particular, or all of the above?

With such a squad I would think very fluid attacking mentality would be fairly appropriate, although I do question the idea of having everyone except for CBs set to attack duty.

valehannes said that he set all his players to attacking

This is my tactic :

[Cougar2010]

valehannes said that he set all his players to attacking

This is my tactic :

Thats really not great.

Some of the issues I would have with it in no particular order:

A) 4231 IMO should be played with at least one DM, more often two.

B) Far too many players on attack orders leaving large gaps between defence & midfield & your two MCs and those in front of them.

C) Limited passing options for Kroos to aim for with the three AM's running away from him.

D) Both AML & AMR are inside forwards therefore directing all play down the middle, against worse teams you need to stretch the defence not make it easy for them.

E) On the same theme, attacking mentality when you have a far better team man for man, you should be using this to your advantage by controlling possession and working the ball to again stretch the defence out of shape.

F) Fluid with the choice of roles isn't ideal.

G) Formation is massively open to counter attacks.

H) You have a flat back two on defend orders which means neither of them are coming to meet the ball leaving them backing off to their own area, again not ideal.

[Georgik]

Thats really not great.

Some of the issues I would have with it in no particular order:

A) 4231 IMO should be played with at least one DM, more often two.

B) Far too many players on attack orders leaving large gaps between defence & midfield & your two MCs and those in front of them.

C) Limited passing options for Kroos to aim for with the three AM's running away from him.

D) Both AML & AMR are inside forwards therefore directing all play down the middle, against worse teams you need to stretch the defence not make it easy for them.

E) On the same theme, attacking mentality when you have a far better team man for man, you should be using this to your advantage by controlling possession and working the ball to again stretch the defence out of shape.

F) Fluid with the choice of roles isn't ideal.

G) Formation is massively open to counter attacks.

H) You have a flat back two on defend orders which means neither of them are coming to meet the ball leaving them backing off to their own area, again not ideal.

Much appreciated, for now it seems that i'm winning the games purely because of my players qualities, and not because of my tactic.

Mainly my strikers (aguero and benzema) dont score enough, almost 0 goals between them ...

What do you suggest ? I'm open to learn more about it, as i said, never played with a team full of so many gifted talents, as in my normal gamesaves i manage more balanced teams.

I'm currently 7-3-0 in the league, but like i've said, i'm not playing what i expected ... find it hard to score so far, given what strikeforce i have at my disposal.

[themadsheep2001]

You're right I had succes with Fluid and Control on FM13, but never tried Very Fluid with Attacking as i was afraid of being too vulnerable in defence.

I'm just using this opportunity to tweak through the tactics, see what suits best my players, it seems that Cristiano doesnt fare too well as an AMR IF

So far it seems that i score hardly mainly because the opposotion are parking the bus and playing very agressively, in 3 matches they've had 1 player sent off for nasty tackles.

Also Aguero seems useless as a Complete Forward with Support, he scored 0 goals in 8 matches.

Fluid and Control is a old favourite of mine, prefer Balanced or Rigid now, but Control is one of my favourite settings once I play/become a mid/top side.

The bold is what I mean, ideally you either need to bypass their D line, or pull it apart with good movement. Otherwise you are often left with the shotgun approach of getting as many shots on target (regardless of chance quality), and hoping one flies in.

That's not to say attacking couldn't be improved in FM ( it could) but its not the killer here

[milnerpoint]

Ive been having success using counter, short passing, retain the ball, high defensive line and lower tempo, the one issue i can have is if teams just completely sit in, but in those situations i usually sit a bit deeper and try and draw them out and change to more direct passing and a higher tempo. I really wouldnt play attacking and fluid with those players and roles.

[Georgik]

@cougar after your suggestions i changed my tactic a little bit

My main concern is that i'm not exploiting Messi's full potential as i see him as a perfect Trequartista, maybe if i play him as a striker, but will be hard on having to bench aguero and benzema

I've set Hummels as ball playing def with stopper and pique with cover

[Neil Brock]

I'll never understand people who edit the game into an unbelievably unrealistic situation and then complain because the game then isn't functioning realistically.

Haha, this. Although some interesting stuff is in this thread, essentially this.

[Georgik]

Haha, this. Although some interesting stuff is in this thread, essentially this.

Yes i know, i took that risk ) It's the first time i've edited the game, i'm just having fun with it, and at the same time testing different tactics Doesnt hurt to try smth new.

[Cougar2010]

Much appreciated, for now it seems that i'm winning the games purely because of my players qualities, and not because of my tactic.

Mainly my strikers (aguero and benzema) dont score enough, almost 0 goals between them ...

What do you suggest ? I'm open to learn more about it, as i said, never played with a team full of so many gifted talents, as in my normal gamesaves i manage more balanced teams.

I'm currently 7-3-0 in the league, but like i've said, i'm not playing what i expected ... find it hard to score so far, given what strikeforce i have at my disposal.

There are a number of ways you can approach it.

One way could be something like:

A) Both inside forwards to support to encourage them to get involved between the lines, leaving the attacking fullbacks to overlap to give width.

B) Switch Kroos to attack.

C) Possibly drop your defensive midfielder to DM.

D) I like a stopper/cover combo at the back so at least one of the DC's is attacking the ball.

E) Start with a standard team mentality and adjust depending how how the match is going and what the opposition is doing.

[valehannes]

I decided to stop as I was starting to get achievements. Results were rather lousy so at one point I decided to switch to a rather classic 442 with target man and poacher. After that, Ronaldo as poacher scored 10 goals in 5 games. I was training team cohesion at very high the whole time and got to 'some way short of operating as an unit'. I reckon the team would've started completing passes in the next couple of weeks. Ray Mears stormed out of roughly 30? press conferences and got the description of "Rarely attends a press conference without losing his temper".

I think if I had started the season without a tactic that had 9 attacking roles I would've done much better overall. Still hurt pretty bad when I lost to Barnsley .

[RTHerringbone]

I believe he meant we are the dunces that we are. My very rigid ultra attacking tactic actually wasn't working very well regardless of players.

No, nothing spiteful!

I just meant that there will need to be some sort of sensible tactical plan to the tactics used.

Just lobbing a bunch of world class stars into an incoherent setup wouldn't work as well as a bunch of "average" players in a coherent setup.

[daylight]

Guess which team i am in this screen shot,

/facepalm.

[Georgik]

There are a number of ways you can approach it.

One way could be something like:

A) Both inside forwards to support to encourage them to get involved between the lines, leaving the attacking fullbacks to overlap to give width.

B) Switch Kroos to attack.

C) Possibly drop your defensive midfielder to DM.

D) I like a stopper/cover combo at the back so at least one of the DC's is attacking the ball.

E) Start with a standard team mentality and adjust depending how how the match is going and what the opposition is doing.

Thanks, will try it.

[valehannes]

Heres some stats

[milnerpoint]

/facepalm.

Hey i did quite well, out of 6 shots, 5 of them were good chances, you cant really ask for much more!

[Georgik]

First real test of the season, Carling Cup QF against West Ham.

[valehannes]

Heres how Ray Mears forced the best team in the world play.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Yes i know, i took that risk ) It's the first time i've edited the game, i'm just having fun with it, and at the same time testing different tactics Doesnt hurt to try smth new.

I don't think there's anything wrong with editing it and having a bit of fun as long as you don't use the result of it to claim the game isn't realistic or doesn't work properly because of it.

[Georgik]

4-1 against West Ham, CR seems to be scoring for fun since i changed the tactics, but i still dont get the best out of Messi and Aguero ... Messi is Trequartista while i changed Aguero to Poacher from Complete Forward, still not scoring as much as i liked, i guess it's very hard to make them all play at their best in the same time.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Maybe Messi and Ronaldo really CAN'T play in the same team together!!

[valehannes]

Just as a what not to do this is mostly how I played til I lost to Barnsley.

I did change it a few times during the game because it was rather horrible and I didn't want to lose.

edit: forgot that the defenders were ball playing defenders too.

[Georgik]

Now that i moved Messi as a striker he seems to be getting goals, but i dont know what to do with Aguero, maybe using him as a Shadow Striker, but i dont think that will work. This is the only problem i have, Messi seems more effective when played as a striker (obviously) than in the AMC position. But Aguero is playing under his potential so far.

Fun fact : in one match got Collins as MOM with him scoring against boro, at the start of the season

[SurferJames]

Your playing too attack minded players mixed it up with defend and attack minded and will get Better result

[jujigatame]

I don't totally understand the people saying this is an invalid test because it's not a realistic scenario. I think it's a very worthwhile test to see how accurately the game is modeling the gulf between different levels of play. Of course this could just be done by running Man City vs. Crewe a hundred times but I think playing a dream team in the Championship could go a ways toward explaining why FM's international results can often seem overly random.

[wwfan]

Just as a what not to do this is mostly how I played til I lost to Barnsley.

I did change it a few times during the game because it was rather horrible and I didn't want to lose.

edit: forgot that the defenders were ball playing defenders too.

That's perhaps the most wonderfully ridiculous combination of roles and duties I've ever seen.

[akkm]

Haha, this. Although some interesting stuff is in this thread, essentially this.

It does however provide a robust examination of the match engine once tactical familiarity and team cohesion are bedded down (primarily anyway) then the significant disparity in quality should produce commensurate results on a consistent basis

[noikeee]

That's perhaps the most wonderfully ridiculous combination of roles and duties I've ever seen.

Nobody supports! Everyone rush forward! Now wait, whilst you all rush forward like headless chickens, lets play it short and slow.

[daylight]

Hey i did quite well, out of 6 shots, 5 of them were good chances, you cant really ask for much more!

I was more on about you asking us to guess what team you were managing by looking at the screenshot.

Next you will be asking us to guess your second name........... Mr Milne.

[Georgik]

What a cheeky lad my ass manager is )

[YKW]

Firstly, Congratulations to the OP. I love posts like this as it is how I have always thought about FM, often I try extremes to see what the effects are, and am usually illuminated by the results.

Secondly, congratulations to the uploader of the game - a step which the OP should really have taken in order to be more credible.

Thirdly, congratulations to the posters who asked for the game to be uploaded instead of just automatically assuming their default position of either blindly defend or senselessly criticise. I just feel that way more evidence than was in the OP was needed to take either position.

Personally I am really, really glad to see that people are winning using this testploit (just coined it). Having just read through the thread from the start, it was very interesting indeed. Although the majority of factors proposed were logical and correct, the magnitude of each was being overestimated, in my opinion. MacShimmy and DagenhamDave would be two people I would identify as having been pretty spot on in their position since inception, particularly MacShimmy as he was one of the few defenders who actually bothered to assess the situation critically. He even had to post the same long post twice just so people would listen, instead of arguing with each other about isolated real life examples that happened to fit their side of the debate.

Obviously like I said, the factors proposed I agreed with, but my personal perspective was that the edited superteam should definitely be winning the game. I can see it is a debatable issue, and my stance is that it would have been hugely unrealistic if the OPs post was a trend. While I was reading I was jotting down the odd point, some of which have been answered so I'll just bring up the new points I have.

1. This experiment should be done for the opposition team as well as the user team. Assemble a team of low CA players from all over the world (just as was done with high CA players) in order to minimize the effect of the cohesion issues mentioned. Personally I think that in this situation the scores will increase in favour of the superstars, perhaps to bring them closer to the type of scores that we would all in our hearts expect from these matches.

2. Can we get some people playing AGAINST this team? Aside from the obvious it would be useful to see how the AI uses the team and then perhaps try to mimmick that once again against the AI.

3. I would LOVE to see if the league you are playing in has an effect overall. I think I am right in saying that La Liga would see more cricket scores than the Premiership. Conduct the experiment in different leagues and see if it gets easier/harder overall, or no change.

4. Reputation. Perhaps there is something that knows when a players reputation is unrealistically high, or something along these lines that may change the behaviour of the players somehow. Given that reputation is quite a major factor in the game, I would be interested in seeing how the same matches played out with all of the superteam's players' reputation altered to 0, or to fit the league rep (whichever you are in).

5. Is there any confirmation that performing transfers in the pre-game editor affects the cohesion levels for that player on starting game? This doesn't match with what I have previously believed. What if the superteam's players had their club history altered to emulate them being established memebers? Could be interesting to see if it gets easier/harder or no change in this situation.

A personal observation on team cohesion/tactic familiarity:

(This is correct as of FM12. You can easily verify if it is still the case.) Starting FM12, I was lost. I was so bad at that game and it took me 3 or 4 times as long to get to grips with than previous versions. So before I noticed that morale was so important I got sacked a lot. Every time actually. But in the spirit of learning the game I did something I had never done before: add a new manager and then take over again at the club that sacked me.

I noticed one cruical thing: despite taking the job again just in-game seconds after having been sacked, when I loaded up my previous formation, which previously had near full familiarity, I now just had the "starting" familiarity.

Same day, same players, EXACT same tactics, yet for some reason my players didn't know how to do it. (at this point it would be really useful if someone with high familiarity could replicate this and see if it is still the case.

Now, how this is relevant to this experiment? Well, seeing the familiarity drop like that changed my perception of full tactical familiarity from "my players are getting a bonus for this" to "my players AREN'T receiving a penalty for this." To me there is no knowledge gained by the player, which is why he can go from complete tactical understanding to complete ignorance in a matter of minutes. This leads me to believe that whenever I start a job I will face an arbitrary "beginners penalty" which isn't really relative to anything meaningful. If I were to happen to stumble upon the exact tactics of my predecessor (IRL I could just ask the captain anyway) then I wouldn't benefit, I would continue to be penalised just for being a beginner.

Which leads to my question: Instead of assembling a superteam, what would happen if you were to simply transfer the entire squad of say Barcelona to Blackburn? Would it then be easier to win? My gut says no, but I would love to know for sure.

[wwfan]

Nobody supports! Everyone rush forward! Now wait, whilst you all rush forward like headless chickens, lets play it short and slow.

I actually think his little experiment has nicely illustrated a point. Despite playing sub-schoolboy tactics, an ungelled but world class team still has a 4-3-1 record. This shows that player quality has a huge bearing on results.

Any user skilled at putting together a tactic that can get the best out of that team should go through the season unbeaten with some degree of comfort.

[Georgik]

@YKW I'll play against it, in the 2nd half of the season, i'll save when i'll reach 23 games with them and then retire and pick another team and will see how they perform, or i'll just remain unemployed to see what scores they get

[Butters76]

Hate to add the cliché, but it's likely your tactics You have a big space between defence and midfield if Fabregas or Vidal do not have defensive duties. This can be made worse if your full-backs aren't pushing forward either. it could also be that the whole team is new and totally clueless in teamwork

Thats probably it. In FM 2013 I added a whole 22 man team once in lower league with very good players for the level, but they all had join date 1.7.12. When I used the new players in the beginning the team only got like 55% pass accuracy, while when I used the geezers that had been there for years the passing accuracy was around 80%. When the new guys had played together for many months they also did 80%+ passing accuracy.

[valehannes]

Thats probably it. In FM 2013 I added a whole 22 man team once in lower league with very good players for the level, but they all had join date 1.7.12. When I used the new players in the beginning the team only got like 55% pass accuracy, while when I used the geezers that had been there for years the passing accuracy was around 80%. When the new guys had played together for many months they also did 80%+ passing accuracy.

The first friendly against Köln was the only match where I watched on extensive and I think I had not set the ridiculous tactic up yet although it was still very attacking. It was some of the worst passing I've ever seen. Neymar actually played like some people think Neymar plays irl - he ran alone on the wing, fell over a lot, tried to buy corners and never passed the ball.

[Georgik]

It seems that everything goes to plan, except i dont score maybe as much as i want, but i'm confident i'll finish the season unbeaten.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

It does however provide a robust examination of the match engine once tactical familiarity and team cohesion are bedded down (primarily anyway) then the significant disparity in quality should produce commensurate results on a consistent basis

I'm not so sure. These players would never be happy or motivated to play in this league. If the game is showing that they are then that would be as much of an issue as whether they could win a game or not for me.

I should add although they would never be motivated or be happy to be there i wouldn't expect the game to reflect this as they have just been placed there in the editor.

[Georgik]

I'm not so sure. These players would never be happy or motivated to play in this league. If the game is showing that they are then that would be as much of an issue as whether they could win a game or not for me.

They dont seem unhappy to play in this league, i guess money talks )

[OxfordUnitedFC]

They dont seem unhappy to play in this league, i guess money talks )

That's kind of why i say this isn't in anyway a serious test. As they have been placed into that team in the editor then the game probably won't reflect that they are unhappy. I'm pretty sure IRL they would be though.

[YKW]

I'm not so sure. These players would never be happy or motivated to play in this league. If the game is showing that they are then that would be as much of an issue as whether they could win a game or not for me.

I should add although they would never be motivated or be happy to be there i wouldn't expect the game to reflect this as they have just been placed there in the editor.

I would, at least after a week or two. Reputation is in the game for a reason. It's just an extreme version of something that should already exist, ie a player with a reputation higher than his club or league. Realistic situations can still involve a fairly great disparity between the two. This is why I have suggested a similar test with the superteam players reputation modified to a realistic, or needlessly low level.

On the other side, perhaps the players are happy to play where they are because they are surrounded by equally high quality players? That would make sense, at least in delaying the unhappiness. I know I'm just going around demanding test games now, but what if it was ONLY Messi in the team, and the rest were crap ones? Would he be unhappy by now?

[OxfordUnitedFC]

I would, at least after a week or two. Reputation is in the game for a reason. It's just an extreme version of something that should already exist, ie a player with a reputation higher than his club or league. Realistic situations can still involve a fairly great disparity between the two. This is why I have suggested a similar test with the superteam players reputation modified to a realistic, or needlessly low level.

On the other side, perhaps the players are happy to play where they are because they are surrounded by equally high quality players? That would make sense, at least in delaying the unhappiness. I know I'm just going around demanding test games now, but what if it was ONLY Messi in the team, and the rest were crap ones? Would he be unhappy by now?

If the game does say after a few weeks that the players are unhappy after a few weeks then it would be a more worthwhile test but from the posts i have read people seem to be saying that they are all happy. Maybe someone can say differently?

I know players will be happier if they are in a team with players on their level but there is still no way IRL they would be happy playing in the second tear with no prospect of playing European football. Plenty of players IRL have left top half premiership clubs because they can't achieve their ambition of playing champions league football.

[YKW]

Entirely agree with you there, OxfordUnitedFC.

When you say "would be a more worthwhile test" are you talking about my suggestion test or this thread? Because the happiness of the players doesn't seem to be a relevant factor as it can be made the same for both teams, especially just for a one-off match.

[Butters76]

One quick question tho, according to the OP he's using Pre Game Editor to make the changes. Does this mean that Blackburn starts with those players and therefore they should be familiar with each other and not suffer from the effects of "New team effect"?

Depends on what he set the join date to.

[Georgik]

Some interesting fact, none of my players were listed for international individual awards

@butters i didnt set a specific date, i just added the players to my teams

[YKW]

Does that carry over their existing contracts? If so, surely some would technically have been with the club for some years.

[Graham206]

Well I had a go at this, gave QPR eleven superstars, left my Ass Man in charge of pre-season - big mistake, virtually all the squad were 'seriously lacking match fitness' when I came back from my hols for the 1st match. Got 3 wins and a draw in the league, playing the same 4-2-3-1 but with the roles I use in my real save, DLP defend and Box to Box for the CMs. Won 4, drew 1 level top of Championship on points but 4th on goal diff. I forgot to edit out Bale's injury so didn't get to use him, Messi got injured in pre-season and only came back to score in the last match I played. Ronaldo was my star, apart from the red for two dives which got him a suspension. disaster in the League Cup, though. I rested most of the edited in stars as I had a league match two days later and the real QPR players got hammered. 4-0 down at one point but fought back to 4-2. Then Ronaldo tore a hamstring and I decided to abandon the exercise

[dooro23]

Does that carry over their existing contracts? If so, surely some would technically have been with the club for some years.

Contract start date for them: 1.7.2013