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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

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Then why reply to a post of mine which was in the middle of a discussion about those exact things?

If I misunderstood your point it's because you decided to attach your point to an entirely different conversation without actually explaining any of it.

Let's take a look, I said:

Your tactics suck, but the way the match engine presents it to you makes it even more obvious that they suck - and because the match engine is making it so obvious, people are wrongly believing the match engine is what's at fault, rather than the sucky tactics.

Lots of possession, shots or passes may look like a good tactic, but what use really if the possession is in the wrong places? If the shots are not good chances? If the passes go nowhere?

To which you replied:

11 points clear in the Premier League, winning trophies, went 23 games unbeaten.

Tactics arnt an issue, the state of the match engine is.

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Because the answer to everything is not the tactics.

Plenty of people on here are posting and your answer to all of them is Tactics.

Someone shows that they are consistantly getting 15+ shots on targets, Must be tactics.

People post clear cut chance after chance after chance, all failed, most be tactics.

Don't get me wrong, adjusting some peoples tactics is going to help them, especially when they pick up on the ways to exploit the current Match Engine.

However, the catch cry answer isn't Tactics.

The Match Engine at the moment needs serious love, the Beta was better (and once again, I am flogging the AI, it is not about winning, it is about an accurate sim of football)

Lots of the match engine isn't flowing like it should at the moment.

But telling the people pointing out it isn't working, that they should just go read some guides, so they find a way to exploit its faults, is not ideal at all.

edit. SI will get it sorted, hopefully soon, however pretending its simply peoples tactics isn't helping, this is a feedback post, and they are trying to give feedback that its unrealistic and not working well.

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Wow. One of you decide to just give up. :lol:

Hopeful of an update today. No doubt i'll be wrong, but who knows.

One thing I've never understood is, the release date of the game is a 'set' date... Why can't updates be given a set date? I know it involves testing etc but as does the game before release. It seems more testing is done on the updates, rather than the game itself before release date :D

For me, the amount of goals in full leagues is a gamebreaker for me. I like to see realism, but unfortunately there are a few aspects of the current version which completely throws realism out of the window.

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Then why reply to a post of mine which was in the middle of a discussion about those exact things?

If I misunderstood your point it's because you decided to attach your point to an entirely different conversation without actually explaining any of it.

Let's take a look, I said:

Your tactics suck, but the way the match engine presents it to you makes it even more obvious that they suck - and because the match engine is making it so obvious, people are wrongly believing the match engine is what's at fault, rather than the sucky tactics.

Lots of possession, shots or passes may look like a good tactic, but what use really if the possession is in the wrong places? If the shots are not good chances? If the passes go nowhere?

Which just proves the point that you're not even reading the post you're getting mad about. I made no reference to winning or losing here at all. If you just look a few posts up you'll find my exchange with wwfan in which I say it's a great game with a few flaws.

Not that this is going to stop you from snapping "It's your sucking tactics" at the next random guy.

Have fun & I hope that you occasionally have a nice day :lol:

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Hopefully the patch comes out this week. And then, SI and its team should use the internet to its advantage rather than trying to threaten on what to do or else. So certainly SI should and can give some form of a daily update. It's simple psychology for "waiting".

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Hopefully the patch comes out this week. And then, SI and its team should use the internet to its advantage rather than trying to threaten on what to do or else. So certainly SI should and can give some form of a daily update. It's simple psychology for "waiting".

Paul posted just a few days on the status of the update.

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Paul posted just a few days on the status of the update.

And I know that, and that was appreciated greatly. Hopefully the same can be continued, so something would be expected today, another new day with another update.

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And I know that, and that was appreciated greatly. Hopefully the same can be continued, so something would be expected today, another new day with another update.

There really is little point in Paul popping everyday to say, "its not ready" when he has more pressing matters. When he has a significant post either way, I'm sure he will make himself heard.

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the short corners/free kicks that get volleyed in with a swivel need to be addressed

it just doesn't happen in real life like that

also sometimes my corner taker will pass it short (i play more expressive) but than the guy he passes it to get a free run at the goal because the AI's defenders stand still!

i can sometimes get a goal but sometimes this dynamic will run on for 2/3 corners, nice to keep to pressure up and score but once again it's not realistic

some of the criticism levelled has been a bit OTT but the above issues are really grinding my gears

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What about those who develop a tactic that manipulates the ME? What about those who don't look at the forums, mess around, and develop a super tactic?

What about them?

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There really is little point in Paul popping everyday to say, "its not ready" when he has more pressing matters. When he has a significant post either way, I'm sure he will make himself heard.

In that case, not sure if that is the right priorities you have. These are customers requests and at least a bit of update continuous wouldn't harm anyone instead of you taking or showing it as a headache. Even an insignificant update is better than silence.

And these customers like demands will only increase with internet reaching more and more people, so perhaps adjust to it instead of running away.

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Having played this version for long enough to start getting addicted and even reading the forum at work, I'd like to put my two pence in. I think the problems started to start with the Tactical Creator. I don't by any means think the TC is bad, and in fact this year's version is even better and really making it an enjoyable product, but it certainly leaves the door more open to confusion.

For example, choosing a more "attacking" control strategy, or quicker tempo, does not always result in more goals or chances - but it more often than not can result in players rushing shots, forcing chances or other poor decisions. For example, in last weekend's WC playoff between Croatia and Iceland, Croatia were the clear (and frustrated) favorites, and played with a man more for nearly the entire second half. However, since they were winless in three games and going through probably their biggest ever crisis, they simply couldn't find a breakthrough and barely had a sniff at goal. They were attacking, probing, but their own morale, coupled with the tactical discipline of Iceland resulted in them putting endless crosses that barely cleared the first defender or pot shots at goal. Anyone who's watched football for a long time would have even gone so far as to predict that Iceland would get a corner and score at the death. We see this happen in real life quite often.

I think the main problems in the game are that some of the rough edges of the ME ( the visual manifestation of what happens) still need to be cleared up. Also, the ratings, which surely affect the overall play - fullback who is on a 5.6 rating will certainly play differently from one on a 6.9.

Sometimes the visuals and what happens is utterly ridiculous, I agree. However, I really don't think the game is unplayable or "broken" - as proven by thousands of competent players who seem to be enjoying it. Every year, between now and January, the same thing happens, while people still ironically keep playing...

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To be fair to SI, i've managed to tweak my tactic to the point where I am creating fewer, higher quality chances and my Strikers are both scoring regularly.

The 'freak' results still occur but probably in line with the frequency they do in real life.

So there is some merit in the 'it's your tactic' response.

However, i've been living like some 'crazed' football alchemist for the last 4 weeks, surviving on Pot Noodles and Monster Munch with 4 hours sleep a night and seriously slipping personal hygiene standards in order to arrive at the magic combination of team instructions and player instructions to make things work.

That is a level of commitment beyond most regular consumers.

The problem is, the post match stats are telling you, you have a great tactic. You dominate possession, create lots of chances, restrict your opponents chances so you feel cheated when you dominate and don't win.

However, there is a layer of sophistication beyond that which does not 'pop up' in the stats, you can only see it in the visualization of the match engine at which point you can see what is not working and then take a 'leap' and figure out how you can improve on this by tweaking team & player instructions. Not easy, but certainly possible.

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I'm sorry, but we will never be on the same page if you think winning 10-1 against Barcelona = good game whereas finding it difficult to score = bad game. It is more difficult to score than defend in football. That's just a fact of life. If it weren't, hockey scores would be more common.

Do you suggest that Football Manager 2013 on final patch its a bad hockey game ? Well if so then what are you doing here ?

Just look better into that screen - its April 2017, United has great team, superb morale, tactic and best Manager in a game :D

Barca top players was injured and they played in 10 after a red card and YES this score is possible and Im sure Im not only one who seen it in a game.

Barca its only a football team - not a TV show A-Team.

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Why not start now, then? You'll prolly still be in pre-season when the ME is fixed.

I'm near the end of pre season of te second season. I stopped almost 2 weeks ago

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I think this is getting stupid now.

This should just be closed until they release the patch, its turning into an Ackter vs the numpties thread.

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

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please release patch im sad today i got turned down a job interview :( I need to drown my sadness

Select "International Footballer" when you make a new manager ;)

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Great news, thanks for the update

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Great news :)

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

There goes the week. Not coming before friday.

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Sorry but I'm done with FM14. Swedes still can't play as their favourite teams. After not playing for two years it's incredibly frustrating coming back and not being able to play, wish I didn't waste my money.

Very disappointed in SI.

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I dont know if we're allowed to put up video links, but its something I cant screenshot. Like most have mentioned defenders are pretty special now. I think this is the first time somethng like this has ever happened in the entire time I've been playing the FM series. Basically in my Liverpool game, Cissokho just cleans up one of the other players in my penalty box who does NOT have the ball. Its like late tackle x10/ . I mean its pretty magical. Less impressed since it was during one of those losing streaks you cant avoid.

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I think this is getting stupid now.

This should just be closed until they release the patch, its turning into an Ackter vs the numpties thread.

This is just the sort of post that is uncalled for!

It has been acknowledged by SI that there are faults with the ME, there was some middle ground found on this forum that people should just wait for the update and if they were still having problems then it could very well be their tactics.

Instead of just leaving it there 1 or 2 posters and a couple of mods decided to set it all off again, also a mod trying to ignite it further by posting "your tactics suck" is not really helping.

I will also add that just because someone has not made a thread in the tactics forum it does not mean they have not visited the forum and read a lot of the excellent information that is there, I know I have!

This sub-forum is becoming more harmful than useful to visit these days.

edit-

That's not exactly a problem in his save. Played 26, won 21. That's an 81% win record, which is 10% better than real life stats would suggest a team always outshooting the opposition would achieve. Given he's got a goal difference of +53 as well, you understand why we take some ranting about the unfair AI and horribly bugged ME with a pinch of salt.

If you read the context in which I posted that comment you would see I was posting that in this thread I have agreed that, before the poster complained.

I was not talking about his save, rather that I am seeing more often than I feel is realistic in my save, this is both for me and the AI teams.

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I think this is getting stupid now.

This should just be closed until they release the patch, its turning into an Ackter vs the numpties thread.

I've not seen you v Ackter tbh. Must have missed it.

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Rather than see this thread plunge to deeper depths than it already has, here's a suggestion - can we use this thread for feedback relating to the FM14, version 14.1.3 please? :thup:

As a reminder, constructive feedback about the game is welcome. However, rather than posting screenshots of games where you perceive something to be "broken", please post a new thread in the Bugs Forum, and support the thread with a .pkm of the affected game, as SI will be able to then view the game to see the issue; they can't do that with a screenshot.

Links to the Match Engine section of the Bugs Forum and a guide to uplaoding .pkms are below;

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/365-Match-Engine-3D-and-Team-Talks

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368795

Here is a link to the general forum rules in a bit to instill a welcome dose of civility:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/370304-Not-Reading-or-Following-House-Rules

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Sweet! I missed FM for the last couple o' weeks :o

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Although Ackter is direct, his point does stand. There have, and always have been, two different types of tactic that make the ME look much worse than it is.

One is when the user can't win and complains the AI can do all kinds of things he can't. Such a user either ends up waiting for super-tactic download, gives up in disgust, or turns to the tactic forum to learn a new approach to the game. Every year we get a few new learners. It makes all the pain of modding worth it.

The other is when the user wins through player rather than tactical dominance. In such cases, the user is usually highly skilled at keeping morale high and hoovering up great players. His tactical analysis, however, focuses purely on match stats, not match context. He complains about super-keepers, 1 goal 1 shot AI and AI tactics cracking. He won't go to the tactics forum because he's doing well and winning most of his games. However, he complains that the football looks terrible and he never gets the run of the ball. This type of user is the most problematic for us, because we know we can help him play better football by improving his tactical approach, but can never get him to listen to us because he takes any querying of his tactical approach as a personal insult. Eventually, he either gets such good players that the AI has no hope, or develops a tactic that takes advantages of whatever holes there are in the ME, and quietens down, only to resurface when the next ME is released.

Whatever moderating strategy we employ, we fail when dealing with this type of user. Direct modding produces anger. Suggestions produce defensive behaviour. Argument produces opinions presented as facts, wildly biased claims and nit-picking of certain points we've made. We can't just give up though, as letting these opinions spread distorts the forums message about how to play and enjoy FM. If we didn't mod such users with some degree of directness, then all kinds of wild theories would spread and nobody would ever learn anything.

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Although Ackter is direct, his point does stand. There have, and always have been, two different types of tactic that make the ME look much worse than it is.

One is when the user can't win and complains the AI can do all kinds of things he can't. Such a user either ends up waiting for super-tactic download, gives up in disgust, or turns to the tactic forum to learn a new approach to the game. Every year we get a few new learners. It makes all the pain of modding worth it.

The other is when the user wins through player rather than tactical dominance. In such cases, the user is usually highly skilled at keeping morale high and hoovering up great players. His tactical analysis, however, focuses purely on match stats, not match context. He complains about super-keepers, 1 goal 1 shot AI and AI tactics cracking. He won't go to the tactics forum because he's doing well and winning most of his games. However, he complains that the football looks terrible and he never gets the run of the ball. This type of user is the most problematic for us, because we know we can help him play better football by improving his tactical approach, but can never get him to listen to us because he takes any querying of his tactical approach as a personal insult. Eventually, he either gets such good players that the AI has no hope, or develops a tactic that takes advantages of whatever holes there are in the ME, and quietens down, only to resurface when the next ME is released.

Whatever moderating strategy we employ, we fail when dealing with this type of user. Direct modding produces anger. Suggestions produce defensive behaviour. Argument produces opinions presented as facts, wildly biased claims and nit-picking of certain points we've made. We can't just give up though, as letting these opinions spread distorts the forums message about how to play and enjoy FM. If we didn't mod such users with some degree of directness, then all kinds of wild theories would spread and nobody would ever learn anything.

I get what you're saying here and do agree with the bulk of it, but this sort of passive-aggressive, condescending stuff is what rustles people's jimmies.

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I get what you're saying here and do agree with the bulk of it, but this sort of passive-aggressive, condescending stuff is what rustles people's jimmies.

Respectfully none of that is passive aggressive, and in fact highlights wwfan's problem. you feel it's condescending when its not even attempting to be. How can one say anything, when everything is taken as an attack?

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Why, because its the truth and if your in that boat it hurts to read the truth?

There's no need to deliberately provoke a reaction.

Half of this thread is mindless prattle from the two different sides of the fence, and this sort of post adds to the disproportionate amount of drivel herein.

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I have to admit, I do not see the issues as seriously as some others. I find that the longer the save goes the more settled the results and the stats seem to be. I think perhaps at the beginning of a save the fluidity aspect of the tactics is undoing people and then they make too many changes and never let the team settle. This is what i did in an earlier save. Once I let my team focus on playing the style I wanted and was patient with them the results started to take care of themselves.

I understand some people do not want to be patient or do not want to actually watch their team play, but I think it works our better if you do.

I am really enjoying FM14 and I hope the changes to the ME are subtle and refining but not too dramatic :)

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Respectfully none of that is passive aggressive, and in fact highlights wwfan's problem. you feel it's condescending when its not even attempting to be. How can one say anything, when everything is taken as an attack?

It's generalising. I really doubt that everyone who has had issues with the ME and complained in here hasn't visited the tactics forum to get some hints and tips, I know I have. I've picked up some good stuff there and adapted my tactics because of it, but there are still some ME bugs obviously visible. The gist of wwfan's post is that he is smart and understands the tactical side completely, and people who don't listen to him are not and shouldn't complain. He's saying that anyone who complains hasn't looked for advice and basically puts their hands to their ears going lalalala, which isn't the case at all.

Not every moderator addresses people's complaints in the same way and I get that someone like wwfan who has spent a lot of time with tactics can get frustrated, but a little more acknowledgement from some posters that there are real problems with the ME in its current state would be more constructive than basically saying 'it's your tactics'.

And who has taken 'any querying of his tactical approach as a personal insult'?

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The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Great to hear! I'd also like to commend you for taking the time and giving us those updates regularly which I'm sure you can see have made these forums a much calmer place compared to years before. It really makes a difference to actually know where we stand regarding the process instead of the 'it's ready when it's ready' line.

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Am I alone in experiencing too many injuries? It seems regardless of what team I am I will be in a state of injury crisis by the start of the season and then remain there until season's end.

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Tubby,

WWFan gave a honest assessment of the situation. The gist you read into his post is from your own making. WWfan comes from a position of a person who basically implemented the system, so it is hardly a case of him saying he is cleverer than everybody else. It is more of an insiders view. As an aside, there is a lot of lalalalala going on as well.

The game has flaws but peoples tactics are actually magnifying those flaws. That is not condescending but logical. When a player is dominating possession but cannot score there is something wrong with their tactic. Again, it seems logical. The game is telling you that you are missing something. Otherwise everyone would be having these issues.

You would know that every year it is the same "worst version of FM ever" diatribe.

I have to admit SI have done well to stick to their guns and reward gamers who put effort into improving their tactical knowledge of the game.

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Tubby,

WWFan gave a honest assessment of the situation. The gist you read into his post is from your own making. WWfan comes from a position of a person who basically implemented the system, so it is hardly a case of him saying he is cleverer than everybody else. It is more of an insiders view. As an aside, there is a lot of lalalalala going on as well.

The game has flaws but peoples tactics are actually magnifying those flaws. That is not condescending but logical. When a player is dominating possession but cannot score there is something wrong with their tactic. Again, it seems logical. The game is telling you that you are missing something. Otherwise everyone would be having these issues.

You would know that every year it is the same "worst version of FM ever" diatribe.

I have to admit SI have done well to stick to their guns and reward gamers who put effort into improving their tactical knowledge of the game.

I don't want to be a jerk about this, but you've pretty much just said the exact same thing as wwfan. Anyhow, I'm going to stop posting in here for the time being because I don't want it to go round in circles or hog the thread with the same old stuff that's been covered a million times already.

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I don't want to be a jerk about this, but you've pretty much just said the exact same thing as wwfan. Anyhow, I'm going to stop posting in here for the time being because I don't want it to go round in circles or hog the thread with the same old stuff that's been covered a million times already.

Yeah, me too :)

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I'm just waiting for the patches and waiting to play the game.

I feel that is the least frustrating way as I have learnt this the hard way from suffering through ME bugs in previous versions. We go through this every year and by now most people should realise that the game on release is far from perfect, particularly the ME.

You either suffer through it, raise the bugs where you see them, accepting the situation OR you wait for the patches to roll out to see if it improves the game to a more playable level for you. This year I'm taking the latter.

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I think it is worth to point out that I admit to having very little faith in/patience with the FM14 ME. This ensured that once I saw things not working well, I did not immediately start to experiment or test my way to something that did work. The lack of faith in the ME made me put the game on hold until a proper update fixed my problems. The knowledge that a patch would come pretty soon anyway, likely ruining whatever I had started, further reinforced the lack of interest in putting time into the game to fix my own problems.

As such, my faith in the release version of FM is automatically very low. I don't for a second assume that whatever is causing my players to stroll around rather than run and to not engage the ball carrier at all is a tactical fault, given that a good team set to Attack-Very Fluid and with a good balance between A/S/D duties with vanilla roles should not behave like that. It might very well be the case that a bad tactical setup would cause the whole team to walk instead of run. The case remains that until the final update in March I am unlikely to have enough faith in the ME to bother spending hours upon hours to properly design and test a tactic and/or read up on the forums.

Everything that can be wrong with the ME is wrong by default on release. Until the product I buy is perfectly functional when I load it up the first time, I will not waste my time adapting to its quirks and creaky hinges, only to have it replaced with a new one a week or two later. SI is facing an uphill battle in this respect, as 44 pages of complaints and discussion around those complaints show I am not the only one suffering from the "lack of faith in the release version" syndrome.

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