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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

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Very good posts noikee. Summing it up nicely.

Yes its great post. But he forgot biggest mistake of this game. Its WAY TO EASY. I know its best selling game. I know that you must make game for smart ones and dumb ones. For pro FM players and amateur players. But in 20 years of playing CM/ FM, i had just 2 versions of your games where the game was hard to beat. Where i had challenge.

We, old players tried all your advices:

1. Start with lowest reputation

2. Start with low league club or unemployed

3. Dont go to tactic forum

4. Dont read on internet who is wonderkind.

5. if you know exploits in ME, dont use it ( like first post corners)

6. I dont even talk with people about FM , because i dont want to hear who is great player in the game.

7. Etc etc etc

I was doing all that and much more , but its still really too easy. Only time i had fun was when i was using FMRTE to make AI clubs full of ronaldo like players. Now i bought your EDITOR and i see ill have to "upgrade" every single AI player to 190+ ability, to make game hard. Do you know that i need 12-18 hours to do that, just for one league? Its really hard work. i was reading this thread, so we all know what are the problems. ( not good AI, AI managers just sucks, easy to buy wonderkinds , easy to get money for good players with wheeling and dealing.. etc .. etc)

Right now, im playing FM14 in championship(ENG), Media Prediction 18th, at half of the season im 5th. Next season ill be in Premiership. Then ill be 8-12 in Premiership. after that season ill be 3rd or 4th. Then ill be first. i know what im saying, im playing this game for 20 years... i have 50 examples like this.

Please SI, i dont know how many years in my life i have. But please make FM 15 hard to beat. Please!!! i beg you. I still remember last time when i was sacked. it was 13-15 years ago with Saint Etienne.

God i loved that version of the game. it was HARD to beat. and it was REALISTIC If you really want.

You made that FM Classic, never tried that, but i was very happy, because i thought it was made for people who a) dont have much time , b ) for amateur players c) for people who dont like micro management

d ) for people who want to beat the game in EASY way.

And thats fine by me, but i really thought youll make full FM for people who want challenge. But nothing happened. Game is still very easy. I just dont get it.

P.s. Out of topic, please stop closing threads where people saying that something is wrong with the game. every day i see 3-4 good topics about problems with game. And they just want to talk about that and help you to make better game. But your people are closing these threads in 10 min. tops. its pretty sad to do that every day. Its like in 1984.

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Playing with chelsea, and I've tried around 15 variations of short passing 4-3-3 tactics. Can't seem to make it work and I end up around 6th -10th place after 20 games.

I would have thought just by pure chance I'd have hit on something successful by now... I've tried faster tempo, lower tempo, high lines, pressing no pressing, fluid systems non fluid systems... safe to say I just don't get it.

Before anyone mentions it- I've of course given each of these tactics time to gel (I've played 20 games in about 5 or 6 different saves).

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Not a bug - it's a tactical issue.

Ok. Explain us how to score more from clear cut opportunities, o mighty Ackter.

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Ok. Explain us how to score more from clear cut opportunities, o mighty Ackter.

Yeah I want to hear too...

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tjsmsjlb.gif

I actually didn't have any... so I played a game.

... no idea why the .gif runs so slow.

This happened a lot in FM13 too, both for corners as here and for throw-ins in equally silly situations.

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You really don't have to do this. You can let your scouts do all the work for you.

The issue of course not being that you can do that. But that no AI ever does. Still agreed. (It's still easy to better your team just by listening to your scouts though as 1) the feedback on ability and future ability tends to be solid no matter the scout and 2) transfers rarely, if ever, flop on FM).

As far as complacency is concerned: In terms of the management genre in general, I don't think it is of benefit in terms of ideas and directions that its entirety is in the hands of but one developer. There's perhaps no culture of complacency as such, but as in every business, where there's more than one spin on an idea, there's development and movement into more directions than one. Sometimes paths cross, sometimes they melt into one, on occasion they can take you places that otherwise wouldn't have been. And yet: Taking into account that SI are growing and still expanding and already have what is by far the biggest team ever dedicated solely to, let's face it, this lovely niche genre, there's also the other argument. And that goes that you don't get that many people aboard when there's real sizable competition around, i.e. FIFA Manager actually being any real cop, rather than EA apparently milking it for one last time this year and spending very little on it throughout all those years as management games are mostly a PC gaming niche. And you don't get that many funds with Beautiful Game Studios et all still in good business.

And as the forums are concerned: Moderating those and shutting those down who really are just in for a rant gone wild isn't lack of customer service. It is the opposite. This is not a rage phone call between just you and the girl operating the customer hotline. There have to be rules. A healthy, moderated and civil forums is to the benefit of everyone. Though there may be but a fraction of users active, the thing has grown up to a size of 200,000 users now. Imagine all of those ranting and raving and raging as they see fit, and what this place would look like. Sure, you could argue that if SI would deliver better products, with product quality a matter of personal opinion, there'd be less of this. It's the same every year regardless of iteration, and it's happened before a million times, and will continue to do so: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/25114-These-forums Reading this, it arguably speaks volumes that out of the little official communication that still occurs on these boards, people are reading complacency into that.

Naturally, with even bigger IPs than FM, it's even more daring. Internet boards have this flipside of occasionably making antisocial idiots out of otherwise perfectly fine people. There's no more civil way to put this, sadly.

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Not a bug - it's a tactical issue.

When it happens game after game after game its not tactical, its the match engine

The fact you are mass deleting posts, including mine which said the UI was good, but the match engine needed work. Says it all.

Even after all the deleted posts there are still 3300 + in here, a lot of them saying the ME needs work.

We paid for the game, deleting posts giving feedback that it needs work, is just NOT ON.

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When it happens game after game after game its not tactical, its the match engine

The fact you are mass deleting posts, including mine which said the UI was good, but the match engine needed work. Says it all.

Even after all the deleted posts there are still 3300 + in here, a lot of them saying the ME needs work.

We paid for the game, deleting posts giving feedback that it needs work, is just NOT ON.

Well to be fair, obviously if it happens game after game after game it could still be a tactical issue. The point is that even though it is a tactical issue (i.e you can fix the goalscoring issue by getting help in the tactics forum), it is caused by the ME having problems with 1) player positioning, 2) first defender engagement, 3) second defender cover, 4) on the ball decisions near both goals. You can bypass this tactically, but what you and hundreds of other posters have said between the lines is that the game tells you that you shouldn't have to. I partially agree because a successfully parked bus should result in very few shots on goal, but at the same time a one-on-one where the keeper has the time to position himself correctly and the advancing forward is running a fair distance at full speed is not as big a chance as many people believes. (Well it is a big chance but it is actually very difficult to score on it).

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Well to be fair, obviously if it happens game after game after game it could still be a tactical issue. The point is that even though it is a tactical issue (i.e you can fix the goalscoring issue by getting help in the tactics forum), it is caused by the ME having problems with 1) player positioning, 2) first defender engagement, 3) second defender cover, 4) on the ball decisions near both goals. You can bypass this tactically, but what you and hundreds of other posters have said between the lines is that the game tells you that you shouldn't have to. I partially agree because a successfully parked bus should result in very few shots on goal, but at the same time a one-on-one where the keeper has the time to position himself correctly and the advancing forward is running a fair distance at full speed is not as big a chance as many people believes. (Well it is a big chance but it is actually very difficult to score on it).

The point is that the more those chances are presented to your striker, the more likely you are to see some of those go in.

The fact that some of us get so many CCCs means that our tactics ARE working. We're talking about good scoring opportunities here rather than long range shots or half chances.

The forward could be very poor but we've seen this happen to the likes of RVP or he's frustrated easily in which case it happens to easily.

Further to the point we see in the match engine on both sides shooting from ridiculous distances even when through on goal. Remember on the beta we were seeing too many goals, especially from the full backs issue, so on release day the strikers were dumbed down as a quick fix hence why we're getting frustrated by these bizarre scenarios we're seeing in the ME. Tactically, you have to make sure you get the right CCCs that the ME likes e.g. Crossing it into a target man to increase your conversion rate rather than 1 on 1s. But that's not very realistic is it.

Let's give Ackter a chance to prove himself and answer that guy's question though. I genuinely want to hear how he thinks we can improve our CCC conversions.

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The fact that some of us get so many CCCs means that our tactics ARE working. We're talking about good scoring opportunities here rather than long range shots or half chances.

For what it's worth, I think with the occasional obscenely high shot count in general, the "CCC issue" might have been taken further than ever so far. So read the following with that pinch of salt. But everything else you'll likely find in this thread, as it is a common trend year in year out, someimtes coupled to yes bugs, that too. But also misconceptions, perception bias and SI's ccc stat not being what it appears to be: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/303143-Why-is-the-AI-so-much-better-at-finishing

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Please stop trying to hit the ball against the defender for a corner. Especially as you just beat him and you're inside the box.

For info, I just checked the Bugs forum and this issue is mentioned, and acknowledged by SI as being under review.

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The issue of course not being that you can do that. But that no AI ever does. Still agreed. (It's still easy to better your team just by listening to your scouts though as 1) the feedback on ability and future ability tends to be solid no matter the scout and 2) transfers rarely, if ever, flop on FM).

As far as complacency is concerned: In terms of the management genre in general, I don't think it is of benefit in terms of ideas and directions that its entirety is in the hands of but one developer. There's perhaps no culture of complacency as such, but as in every business, where there's more than one spin on an idea, there's development and movement into more directions than one. Sometimes paths cross, sometimes they melt into one, on occasion they can take you places that otherwise wouldn't have been. And yet: Taking into account that SI are growing and still expanding and already have what is by far the biggest team ever dedicated solely to, let's face it, this lovely niche genre, there's also the other argument. And that goes that you don't get that many people aboard when there's real sizable competition around, i.e. FIFA Manager actually being any real cop, rather than EA apparently milking it for one last time this year and spending very little on it throughout all those years as management games are mostly a PC gaming niche. And you don't get that many funds with Beautiful Game Studios et all still in good business.

And as the forums are concerned: Moderating those and shutting those down who really are just in for a rant gone wild isn't lack of customer service. It is the opposite. This is not a rage phone call between just you and the girl operating the customer hotline. There have to be rules. A healthy, moderated and civil forums is to the benefit of everyone. Though there may be but a fraction of users active, the thing has grown up to a size of 200,000 users now. Imagine all of those ranting and raving and raging as they see fit, and what this place would look like. Sure, you could argue that if SI would deliver better products, with product quality a matter of personal opinion, there'd be less of this. It's the same every year regardless of iteration, and it's happened before a million times, and will continue to do so: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/25114-These-forums Reading this, it arguably speaks volumes that out of the little official communication that still occurs on these boards, people are reading complacency into that.

Naturally, with even bigger IPs than FM, it's even more daring. Internet boards have this flipside of occasionably making antisocial idiots out of otherwise perfectly fine people. There's no more civil way to put this, sadly.

I agree in large with your post. However, it must be said that this forum had/has several relatively new users who were insistent on challenging every single bit of constructive criticism presented. This resulted in the type of arguments (I'm not an angel I guess) that plague this thread in particular.

Whilst the mods should clamp down on people who decide that personal attacks are the way forward, they should also consider action against those who decide to mock, laugh at or goad other people into personal debates.

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Ok. Explain us how to score more from clear cut opportunities, o mighty Ackter.

This is the type of thing that isn't welcome. If you really want to know how to improve your tactic, go to the tactic discussion area, show your tactic and give a fair bit of detail. You'll soon have a fully working tactic for all eventualities.

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Whilst the mods should clamp down on people who decide that personal attacks are the way forward, they should also consider action against those who decide to mock, laugh at or goad other people into personal debates.

We already do this.

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Playing with chelsea, and I've tried around 15 variations of short passing 4-3-3 tactics. Can't seem to make it work and I end up around 6th -10th place after 20 games.

I would have thought just by pure chance I'd have hit on something successful by now... I've tried faster tempo, lower tempo, high lines, pressing no pressing, fluid systems non fluid systems... safe to say I just don't get it.

Before anyone mentions it- I've of course given each of these tactics time to gel (I've played 20 games in about 5 or 6 different saves).

I guess it's a matter of tactics...

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We already do this.

Personally, I think that those who rant against the game get a bit more leniency to those who sit in this thread and insist on challenging feedback. What's really annoying is when SI has said it's a bug, but people still decide to challenge it!

Just an opinion though :thup:

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This is the type of thing that isn't welcome. If you really want to know how to improve your tactic, go to the tactic discussion area, show your tactic and give a fair bit of detail. You'll soon have a fully working tactic for all eventualities.

The thing is I don't think the mods help themselves by being patronising.

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The thing is I don't think the mods help themselves by being patronising.

The only thing you can really say to this without being banned is report it. I'm unsure what would happen though.

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In quick reply.

How would you feel it if one of your customers, for whatever reason, came to your place of work and told you you were unprofessional, lazy, arrogant, money-grabbing, incompetent or equivalent? Why do people think it is OK to post such things? It's uncivil and we won't, and should not, stand for it. We are completely happy to let people complain about the game itself, but the moment they become personal or obnoxious we will shut them down, and rightly so.

As to your second point, it is impossible for us to know if the football you are seeing is horrible because you have different criteria to us or because your tactics produce horrible looking football. In our eyes, the football, bar a few central issues, doesn't look too bad. Either the same football looks terrible to you, in which case it is merely a difference of opinion we can't do much about, or you are doing something that makes the football look terrible, which we can help with by looking at your tactical approach. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about winning. It is, and has always been, possible to win on FM while producing horrible looking football. Most of the super-tactics did that. I'm talking about producing logical looking football.

Yes, because everything is relative. But you know whats not relative? Customer oppinions! The single best way I can describe how FM14 was recieved by alot of people is: When the game released, a FM14 topic was made on the official danish FC Barcelona forums, where we all know eachother more or less. Now, almost 2 weeks later, 1 single individual wrote about the game in a completely positive way. EVERYONE else are dissapointed, one more than the other. When reading between the lines of most of the mods and SI employees responses on here. What you basically saying, is that SI released a good game, but the customers dont know how to play it? So tactics aside; is this general satisfying politics for a company and its customers?

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this is a fact... people just want an easy game .. (click-continue-win) draw sometimes lose some but mostly win..most love fm12 because of that! if SI would do the game realistically (for people who employ 'normal tactics' which they already did I find fm14 awesome) while allow exploits like 4-3-3 (near post corner) and so on for people who want it easy! I am then sure no one will complain :)

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Personally, I think that those who rant against the game get a bit more leniency to those who sit in this thread and insist on challenging feedback. What's really annoying is when SI has said it's a bug, but people still decide to challenge it!

Just an opinion though :thup:

There is always 1 or 2 every year that try to annoy people with "that does not happen in my game" "it's your tactics" "maybe you would be better playing another game" etc etc.

Best thing is once you have identified the posters just do not reply to them, just let them post and if no one gets sucked in to a one on one, which is what they are after, the forum will become a lonely place for them and hopefully, as with previous years they will move on or indeed get banned.

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Only time i had fun was when i was using FMRTE to make AI clubs full of ronaldo like players. Now i bought your EDITOR and i see ill have to "upgrade" every single AI player to 190+ ability, to make game hard. Do you know that i need 12-18 hours to do that, just for one league? Its really hard work. i was reading this thread, so we all know what are the problems. ( not good AI, AI managers just sucks, easy to buy wonderkinds , easy to get money for good players with wheeling and dealing.. etc .. etc)

Right now, im playing FM14 in championship(ENG), Media Prediction 18th, at half of the season im 5th. Next season ill be in Premiership. Then ill be 8-12 in Premiership. after that season ill be 3rd or 4th. Then ill be first. i know what im saying, im playing this game for 20 years... i have 50 examples like this.

Please SI, i dont know how many years in my life i have. But please make FM 15 hard to beat. Please!!! i beg you. I still remember last time when i was sacked. it was 13-15 years ago with Saint Etienne.

God i loved that version of the game. it was HARD to beat. and it was REALISTIC If you really want.

You made that FM Classic, never tried that, but i was very happy, because i thought it was made for people who a) dont have much time , b ) for amateur players c) for people who dont like micro management

d ) for people who want to beat the game in EASY way.

And thats fine by me, but i really thought youll make full FM for people who want challenge. But nothing happened. Game is still very easy. I just dont get it.

P.s. Out of topic, please stop closing threads where people saying that something is wrong with the game. every day i see 3-4 good topics about problems with game. And they just want to talk about that and help you to make better game. But your people are closing these threads in 10 min. tops. its pretty sad to do that every day. Its like in 1984.

You realize you can edit every player in the proper editor... and mass edit at that lol.

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There is always 1 or 2 every year that try to annoy people with "that does not happen in my game" "it's your tactics" "maybe you would be better playing another game" etc etc.

Best thing is once you have identified the posters just do not reply to them, just let them post and if no one gets sucked in to a one on one, which is what they are after, the forum will become a lonely place for them and hopefully, as with previous years they will move on or indeed get banned.

I'm sure we're talking about the same people, MacZidane last year, another one this year.

Still, I'd like to see this type of posting on the same level as those who decide to throw personal attacks about the developers.

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Best thing is once you have identified the posters just do not reply to them, just let them post and if no one gets sucked in to a one on one, which is what they are after, the forum will become a lonely place for them and hopefully, as with previous years they will move on or indeed get banned.

Even better, you can go and view their profile and Add To Ignore List, which means you'll never see their posts again.

It compacts threads like these down to about 2 pages!

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Not a bug - it's a tactical issue.

ok so i need to follow some lessons of the professor wwfan that will teach me how to play football (... in football manager ....).

It's a tactical issue.

ME is perfect.

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Even better, you can go and view their profile and Add To Ignore List, which means you'll never see their posts again.

It compacts threads like these down to about 2 pages!

Hehe.

The only problem is some people quote their posts so it makes it useless as the drivel is still there on the screen, trust me I have tried this. :)

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ok so i need to follow some lessons of the professor wwfan that will teach me how to play football (... in football manager ....).

ME is perfect.

Either be constructive and stop the sniping or don't post at all.

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Mornin people!

Just cause I didn't follow since yesterday, did we get any news from SI about the patch or anything about it?

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Mornin people!

Just cause I didn't follow since yesterday, did we get any news from SI about the patch or anything about it?

The answer is the same as the one you got yesterday. It'll be ready when its ready :)

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Mornin people!

Just cause I didn't follow since yesterday, did we get any news from SI about the patch or anything about it?

Nope, and the first we will hear about it, is when it is actually released.

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I'm a senior manager in the public sector. My customers complain about the services we provide regularly. They aren't always right, but their taxes pay for services and if they don't think they're getting what they require then we know about it. And, let me tell you, they aren't always polite. Regardless of how I feel about it, I have to take it on the chin. That's life. I'm afraid where the criticism is not overtly personal (i.e aimed at individuals rather than SI as an entity) that you should have to stand for it. That's the way it works. It's the way it should work. As in my example the people complaining about FM14 pay their money and if they think the product is sub-standard you just have to live with them saying so. To do anything else is to offer poor customer service and, unfortunately, I think SI have a lot to learn in that regard. Why shouldn't I be allowed to call SI (for example) money grabbing without being shut down? It might well be my view and it's a perfectly legitimate one, even if some on this site are too sensitive to accept that. SI are in a bizarre situation in which they face no competition whatsoever in their specific field. That does (naturally) engender a culture which is arrogant and I'm afraid that comes across in some of the posts (although not yours to me - you've been perfectly polite).

Bravo sir! My line of work, is very similar to yours and I agree completely with everything you wrote.

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Heh got 2 mods to answer to me, yayyy!! :p

Thanks guys :)

It's because, in spite of multiple invitations, not one person from here has posted a detailed thread in the Tactics and Training Forum seeking help.

Seems it's easier to keep circulating the same tired "observations" in here, than it is to actually consider that some other people might be able to help.

I'm not too fussed - makes my life easier and keeps the excellent GD mods nice and busy :)

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If people think something is a bug then post it in the bugs forum. If people think something is wrong tactically then post it in the tactics forum. It's pretty silly to come out with comments like 'I wonder if SI have ever played football' blah blah and doesn't help anyone.

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Bravo sir! My line of work, is very similar to yours and I agree completely with everything you wrote.

Agree 100% too. If there is a place where can offer feedback on customer service then I think some of us would be glad to take our constructive criticism there instead of being off-topic in this thread.

EDIT: just seen I received an infraction for "using a car analogy". Case in point.

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ok so i need to follow some lessons of the professor wwfan that will teach me how to play football (... in football manager ....).

ME is perfect.

You don't have to do anything but as it takes about 20 minutes to read his excellent post, I'd definitely suggest that it's worthwhile. I don't want anyone to do tactics for me, but understanding how the people that build and extensively test the match engine see it working really helped - mainly in correcting assumptions that I'd made about the descriptions used (for example playing Counter doesn't necessarily mean playing defensive if you're doing it right). I can't stress how useful I found it

There are definitely a couple of issues with the ME that I think SI will be working hard on, but please bear in mind that this thread isn't for getting tactical advice, or for sniping at people - it's for providing feedback. If you're not doing that, you're probably in the wrong place.

Incidentally - I've quoted you, but there's a few people repeatedly posting in here (largely to Ackter) who would be well served by following the advice given. So could we please cut out the language, griefing or trolling and keep the thread constructive?

Many thanks.

Matt

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Agree 100% too. If there is a place where can offer feedback on customer service then I think some of us would be glad to take our constructive criticism there instead of being off-topic in this thread.

EDIT: just seen I received an infraction for "using a car analogy". Case in point.

SEGA have a customer service department if you feel that you've been treated egregiously. As an alternative, you can mail mods at sigames dot come, or even PM Neil Brock.

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It's because, in spite of multiple invitations, not one person from here has posted a detailed thread in the Tactics and Training Forum seeking help.

Seems it's easier to keep circulating the same tired "observations" in here, than it is to actually consider that some other people might be able to help.

I'm not too fussed - makes my life easier and keeps the excellent GD mods nice and busy :)

That does not mean people have not been reading the tactics forum, I know I have and I have read wwfans 12 step guide a few times, as well as reading some other excellent threads.

I am quite happy with my tactic, that been said I am still waiting for the update to sort some things that really 'bug' 'me'. :)

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Out of curiosity, how would I post a link to a video on here? Noticed a bug with the keepers.

EDIT: I've started as Coventry and it's stupid how people complain when the admins sell players. Clearly, it isn't my decision.

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It actually is, I can't find the rules again but there is for sure an infraction for using car analogies. :)

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Bravo sir! My line of work, is very similar to yours and I agree completely with everything you wrote.

If it involves maintaining a public community I wouldn't want to be a part of it - pleased or displeased costumer, doesn't matter. It's one thing to deal with flak, it's another to maintain a community so that is remains a working platform and a place worth visiting for each party involved: the public and the business. We're not talking social media channels, help hotlines, anything, just these forums and what they are intended to be: a place worth visiting for anyone, a long-term commitment and community to a popular long-running series, not a short-term dumping place for public anger management.

There's got to be a place for that too, maybe the mods could encourage a dedicated vent-thread if doable (still needs be monitored as such threads tend to be hot-beds for myths spreading quickly, see various FM community sites). But ultimately as in any space where people gather and that relies on their visits and commitment: There have to be rules, at least some. And a certain kind of behavior needs to be encouraged so that people actually come back and can communicate.

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Out of curiosity, how would I post a link to a video on here? Noticed a bug with the keepers.

EDIT: I've started as Coventry and it's stupid how people complain when the admins sell players. Clearly, it isn't my decision.

If you have a bug, it is best posted in the Bugs Forum, and supported with a .pkm rather than a video.

Here are links to the forum, and a guide how to upload .pkms.

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/365-Match-Engine-3D-and-Team-Talks

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368795

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